PBS NewsHour - 1999-05-28
Channel: malgent
Transcript
Language: English (original, YouTube automatic captions)
[0:12] Good evening, I'm Jim Lara. On the
[0:14] NewsHour tonight, we look at the ups and
[0:16] downs and other changes at the stock
[0:18] markets. Call me homeman profiles Dennis
[0:20] Hastard, the speaker of the house. Mark
[0:23] Shields and Paul You go analyze the week
[0:25] of politics. Elizabeth Farnsworth
[0:27] interviews the winner of the Templeton
[0:29] Prize for Religion and essayist Roger
[0:32] Rosenblat talks of human nature. It all
[0:34] follows our summary of the news this
[0:36] Friday.
[0:38] Brought to you in part by ADM. Feeding
[0:40] the world is the biggest challenge of
[0:42] the new century. Because by the time
[0:44] this baby is old enough to vote, the
[0:46] world will have nearly two billion new
[0:48] mouths to feed. ADM supermarket to the
[0:51] world.
[1:02] This program is made possible in part by
[1:04] a grant from Travelers Insurance
[1:08] and by the Corporation for Public
[1:10] Broadcasting and by the annual financial
[1:12] support from viewers like you. Some new
[1:15] economic numbers helped turn Wall Street
[1:18] around today. The Commerce Department
[1:20] reported consumer spending was up last
[1:22] month while saving was at the lowest
[1:24] rate on record. Some economists said
[1:26] consumers were pulling out savings to
[1:28] buy stocks in order to profit from
[1:31] rising prices. On Wall Street, the Dow
[1:33] Jones Industrial Average closed up 92
[1:36] points at 10,559.
[1:38] Yesterday, it had its worst session of
[1:41] 1999, losing more than 200 points. And
[1:44] the Nasdaq rebounded also. It was up 51
[1:47] points at 2470. We'll have more on the
[1:50] markets right after this news summary.
[1:52] In Belgrade today, Russia's special
[1:54] Kosovo envoy presented Yugoslav
[1:57] President Mallosvich with a peace plan.
[1:59] Victor Cherna Miran offered no details
[2:01] of his proposal, but Russian news
[2:03] reports said it called for a mix of NATO
[2:06] and Serbian peacekeepers in Kosovo.
[2:08] Allied air strikes continued amid the
[2:11] diplomacy they were the heaviest yet.
[2:13] Tom Bearden again has our summary
[2:15] report.
[2:19] >> Belgrade and most of Yugoslavia were
[2:21] without electricity last night as NATO
[2:23] again attacked the nation's power grid.
[2:26] Two major relay stations were destroyed.
[2:30] >> The strikes cut off power to one of the
[2:32] biggest hospital complexes in the city,
[2:34] which staffers said had been damaged in
[2:35] an earlier raid. This building is
[2:39] remained
[2:40] and we try to maintain our patience as
[2:44] well as we can but as you can see almost
[2:48] the whole day we are out of electricity.
[2:51] Russia's Balkans envoy Victor
[2:53] Chernomiran arrived in the darkened
[2:55] capital for a fourth round of talks with
[2:57] Yugoslav President Sloban Mallovich.
[2:59] Chernabiran said yesterday's indictment
[3:01] of Mallosvich by a UN tribunal for war
[3:04] crimes had complicated his mission. In
[3:06] Brussels, US Deputy Secretary of State
[3:08] Strobe Talbat said the Russians were not
[3:10] negotiating for NATO and said the
[3:12] indictment was not a barrier to peace.
[3:15] >> I think that the uh indictment in a very
[3:17] real sense vindicates uh one of the
[3:20] premises not just of US policy but of
[3:23] policy of our allies as well. At the
[3:26] State Department this afternoon,
[3:28] spokesman James Rubin showed reporters a
[3:30] series of photographs he said showed
[3:32] that Serbs had dug up mass graves and
[3:34] reeried the bodies in individual graves.
[3:37] >> We believe the motive for Serb forces
[3:39] undertaking this activity is to try to
[3:42] cover up uh evidence of their war
[3:44] crimes, confuse the picture, and
[3:46] obstruct the work of war crimes
[3:47] investigators.
[3:50] >> The flow of refugees into Albania has
[3:52] resumed.
[3:54] UN relief agencies are worried that
[3:55] Albanian military exercises along the
[3:58] border might draw artillery fire from
[4:00] Serbian forces with disastrous
[4:03] consequences for the overcrowded refugee
[4:05] camps nearby. An estimated 600,000
[4:08] ethnic Albanians remain inside Kosovo.
[4:10] An international aid group said it would
[4:12] begin airdrops of food and other
[4:14] supplies next week. NATO said it would
[4:16] cooperate but warned the missions would
[4:18] be dangerous. In another part of the
[4:21] world, an Indian helicopter gunship was
[4:24] shot down today over Kashmir, the
[4:26] disputed region between India and
[4:28] Pakistan. All four crewmen were killed.
[4:31] Pakistan denied any involvement. It
[4:34] followed a third day of air strikes by
[4:36] India against alleged Pakistanibbacked
[4:38] separatists. In Pakistan, the state-run
[4:40] television ran footage of a captured
[4:43] Indian pilot and wreckage from one of
[4:45] the two jets it claimed to have shot
[4:47] down yesterday. In Washington, State
[4:50] Department spokesman Rubin urged
[4:51] restraint by both nations.
[4:55] >> We understand uh that there have been a
[4:57] number of conversations between Prime
[4:59] Ministers Vaji and Sharif. Uh we believe
[5:02] that Indian and
[5:04] Pakistani military and political leaders
[5:06] need to be in touch so there is no
[5:08] misunderstandings and mis
[5:10] miscalculations. We think they should
[5:12] support bilateral diplomatic efforts to
[5:14] pull their countries back from the
[5:17] danger of a heightened and far more
[5:18] dangerous conflict. Rubin also said
[5:21] North Korea did not appear to be
[5:23] violating a 5-year nuclear agreement. He
[5:26] said American inspectors found an empty
[5:28] tunnel where they had suspected nuclear
[5:30] research was being conducted. Special
[5:32] envoy William Perry left North Korea
[5:35] today after a 4-day official visit. He
[5:37] delivered a letter from President
[5:38] Clinton to the president of North Korea
[5:41] suggesting ways to normalize relations.
[5:44] China's ambassador to the US criticized
[5:46] Congress today over the nuclear spying
[5:48] charges. He said it was trying to whip
[5:50] up fear with the report on Chinese
[5:53] espionage released earlier this week.
[5:55] Ambassador Lee Xiaoing said it was
[5:58] vicious and irresponsible. He repeated
[6:00] China's claims that it did not steal any
[6:02] US nuclear secrets. He spoke at a news
[6:04] conference in Washington.
[6:07] This kind of hysteria has harmed the
[6:12] valuable and a very much cherished
[6:14] relationship between our two great
[6:16] countries.
[6:18] A relationship which is mutually
[6:21] beneficial
[6:23] and which is also good for maintaining
[6:26] world peace and for encouraging common
[6:30] development the world over.
[6:33] And in Italy today, Leonardo da Vinci's
[6:36] The Last Supper was back on public view
[6:38] in Milan, cleaned and brightened by a
[6:41] 22-year restoration project. This is
[6:44] what it looked like before, covered by
[6:46] five centuries of dirt and paint from
[6:48] nine other efforts to restore it.
[6:50] Lonardo completed it in 1498. And here's
[6:54] what it looks like now. Experts scraped
[6:56] it down to the original and touched it
[6:59] up with watercolor.
[7:01] And that's it for the news summary
[7:02] tonight. Now it's on to the markets. The
[7:05] speaker
[7:07] Shields and Jigo, the Templeton Prize
[7:09] winner, and a Roger Rosenblat essay.
[7:21] Wall Street took quite a ride this week.
[7:23] Monday, the Dow Jones Industrial Average
[7:25] closed down 174 points. Tuesday, another
[7:30] 124. Then Wednesday up 171, Thursday
[7:34] down 235
[7:36] and today back up 93. And there was the
[7:40] additional news that the NASDAQ market
[7:42] will have an evening stock trading
[7:44] session, the first move toward what
[7:46] could become a 24-hour trading day. To
[7:49] help us sort through this, Gretchen
[7:51] Morgansson, who covers Wall Street for
[7:52] the New York Times. Gretchen, welcome.
[7:54] >> Thank you, Jim.
[7:55] >> Up, down, uh, up, down, all around.
[7:58] What's going on? Well, first of all, you
[8:00] have to remember we're at very high
[8:02] levels on the Dow. When we're in the
[8:04] 10,000, 11,000 area, 100 points, 200
[8:07] points is not as large as it may seem if
[8:09] we were down in the 5,000 area. But we
[8:12] are seeing a lot of volatility, a lot of
[8:15] moves, and it is disconcerting to
[8:17] investors. However, the Dow Jones is
[8:19] still up 15% for the year, which is a
[8:22] sizable gain.
[8:24] >> So, when it goes up and down, up and
[8:26] down, the end result is still very much
[8:28] up. Is that correct?
[8:29] >> It has been. Yes. Um we hope it will
[8:31] continue. Of course, um the NASDAQ has
[8:34] had even more volatility because it is
[8:36] con it consists of a lot of um untried
[8:40] uh untested smaller technology companies
[8:43] whose fortunes are a little bit more
[8:45] unpredictable than the big blue chip
[8:47] companies that make up the Dow Jones
[8:49] Industrials. But the point you made a
[8:51] while ago, I mean, in before it got into
[8:53] the 10,000 almost 11,000 range, 100
[8:56] points or 200 points was a either
[8:59] whether it was up or down was considered
[9:00] a huge deal, but it's not as big anymore
[9:03] percentage wise. Right.
[9:04] >> That's right. And that's the way you
[9:05] have to look at it. But I think that
[9:07] investors are uh concerned when they see
[9:09] these kinds of moves. And Thursday's
[9:11] move down of 235 points, as you pointed
[9:13] out, was the biggest point move down for
[9:15] the year. Uh I think it reflects Jim a
[9:18] very deep uh concern about interest
[9:21] rates. That is really what's driving the
[9:23] markets uh uncertainty here and we have
[9:26] had ever since the crisis last fall the
[9:29] world crisis in emerging markets we've
[9:31] had a very accommodative Federal Reserve
[9:33] policy um they've been easing rates as a
[9:36] matter of fact three times in I think
[9:39] two months last fall. Now we hear in the
[9:42] last meeting that there is a concern
[9:44] that inflation may be uh around the
[9:46] corner at least some signs of it some
[9:48] straws in the wind. So we have a Fed
[9:51] that has changed its bias is the word
[9:53] everyone uses to from accommodative to
[9:56] possibly more restrictive. And if
[9:58] interest rates go up that's bad for
[9:59] stocks.
[10:00] >> Yeah. And and why is that bad for
[10:02] stocks? Make the connection. It's bad
[10:04] for stocks because uh companies borrow
[10:06] money uh to fund their operations and as
[10:09] interest rates rise their borrowing
[10:11] costs rise. Anything that cuts into
[10:13] profitability like an increased
[10:15] borrowing cost means earnings will be
[10:17] down. But furthermore, it impacts stock
[10:20] prices because investors who see higher
[10:23] yields on bonds think to themselves,
[10:26] "Wow, maybe I should take a little bit
[10:27] of money off the stock market table and
[10:30] put it into a slightly more conservative
[10:32] investment that is yielding more than it
[10:34] was say last month or the month before."
[10:37] >> Right? Now, let's go back also to
[10:38] explain to those who don't watch this
[10:40] every day, follow this every day. The
[10:42] Federal Reserve in this last meeting did
[10:44] not actually raise interest rates. No,
[10:47] it did not.
[10:47] >> But it for the first time said, "Hey,
[10:49] look, we're thinking about it."
[10:51] essentially. Is that right?
[10:52] >> Correct. They were looking at things
[10:53] that made them concerned that there may
[10:55] be some inflation coming down the pike.
[10:58] And so, they don't want to wait until it
[11:00] smacks them in the face to do something.
[11:02] And so what they're basically warning is
[11:05] that they're on the lookout for it.
[11:07] They're alert for it, vigilant, and
[11:09] they're going to act if they feel it's
[11:11] necessary. Prior to that meeting, it had
[11:14] been, as I said, very much the opposite.
[11:16] >> Yeah. Do the people, the professionals
[11:18] on Wall Street that you talk to
[11:20] regularly, are they now just accepting
[11:23] the fact that this market is a quote
[11:25] volatile market? We're just going to
[11:26] have these these ups and downs, and
[11:28] that's just part of doing business.
[11:30] >> Yes, they are. Unfortunately, um I don't
[11:32] know what you do about it. We have had
[11:35] very high gains in the market for the
[11:37] past three years. But in addition to
[11:40] those gains, we've also seen this
[11:42] increase in volatility. But I'll tell
[11:44] you, people seem to be riding with it
[11:46] because you've got more investors in the
[11:48] market than ever before.
[11:49] >> Yeah. Now, you mentioned uh the uh the
[11:52] NASDAQ market and and that's driven by
[11:55] the incredible interest in anything that
[11:57] has to do with the internet, right?
[11:59] Well, a lot of the internet stocks are
[12:02] front and center with investors right
[12:03] now. Of course, the NASDAQ is, I think,
[12:06] 5,500 companies. So, there are plenty of
[12:09] companies on that ex on that uh market
[12:11] that have nothing to do with the
[12:13] internet. But the internet is has taken
[12:16] the fancy of investors to such a degree
[12:18] that that is yes, what most people talk
[12:20] about when they talk about NASDAQ. Now,
[12:22] do they also talk about when they talk
[12:24] about internet stocks, do they talk
[12:25] about it as something permanent, or do
[12:27] they talk about it as, oh, this is
[12:29] something you got to get on quickly
[12:30] because it may fade? I mean, what do
[12:32] they think about it?
[12:33] >> You know, Jim, the the interesting
[12:34] analogy that people say, uh, the
[12:36] internet is where radio was in the 1920s
[12:39] or Yeah, it it was one of those events
[12:42] and they don't come around very often.
[12:44] And this is why people are so entranced
[12:46] with the internet is that it is an
[12:48] industry that has potential that people
[12:50] cannot even measure. And what that means
[12:52] is it's going to change the way the
[12:54] world works, change the way everything
[12:56] works. And so you don't you can't even
[12:58] measure what it might do for businesses.
[13:00] This is what begins to explain the
[13:03] valuations of these stocks that are at
[13:05] tulip bulb mania levels because
[13:07] >> tulip bulb mania. What does that mean?
[13:10] Well, that one of the biggest mania of
[13:12] all time in the financial markets was
[13:14] tulip bulb mania in uh Holland in the
[13:16] 1600s, I believe it was when tulip bulbs
[13:19] were selling for more than houses.
[13:21] >> Oh my goodness.
[13:21] >> Anyway, it's one of the mania that
[13:23] people point to in internet mania has
[13:26] been a mania because people believe it
[13:28] is going to change the way we do things
[13:30] and with that in mind they say well the
[13:32] sky's the limit about what these stocks
[13:34] should trade at. And those are stocks
[13:35] like eBay, which is the auction uh
[13:38] internet service, and Amazon.com
[13:41] AOL. Anything having to do with this is
[13:44] goes is very goes up and down quickly.
[13:47] Now, on uh on speaking of NASDAQ, they
[13:50] announced yesterday that they're going
[13:52] to have evening trading session. Why did
[13:54] they do that?
[13:55] >> I'll tell you, it's a couple of reasons
[13:56] I believe, Jim. One is that the world
[13:59] it's becoming a more globalized
[14:01] investment uh arena. uh we are going to
[14:04] have markets that trade 24 hours a day.
[14:06] In fact, right now you can pretty much
[14:07] trade a lot of stocks 24 hours a day,
[14:10] whether it's in Europe, Japan, a lot of
[14:13] the companies on the big board, you can
[14:14] trade these all night long. So, I think
[14:17] that a lot of these markets like NASDAQ
[14:19] and New York Stock Exchange has also
[14:21] mentioned that they are going to try
[14:22] this evening um hours. They're doing it
[14:25] out of a defensive uh uh posture to try
[14:28] to maintain market share as it were.
[14:30] They want people to be trading on their
[14:32] venue
[14:33] >> rather than to go here again on the
[14:35] internet. Right.
[14:36] >> Or overseas for that matter.
[14:37] >> Sure.
[14:38] >> Uh the other thing I believe that's
[14:40] that's fueling it is that there are so
[14:42] many people who trade on the internet
[14:44] who don't trade during the day but come
[14:46] home analyze their investments on their
[14:48] computer and then want to make a change,
[14:50] want to make a buy or a sell that they
[14:53] believe they should have access to these
[14:55] markets when they want to buy and sell.
[14:57] M
[14:58] >> and so it's all again part of the
[14:59] internet having an impact on the way
[15:01] people think and these marketplaces want
[15:04] to have want to be able to give these
[15:06] people access if they want to trade.
[15:07] >> Is there any informed wisdom on what
[15:10] impact a 24-hour market or even a
[15:13] beginning step like an evening market
[15:15] would have on on stock prices and the
[15:18] markets generally?
[15:19] >> Well, back to where we started um
[15:21] unfortunately which is volatility. I
[15:23] think uh initially when you have evening
[15:25] marketplace uh you're going to have a
[15:27] far fewer investors in it. You're not
[15:29] going to have probably the institutions
[15:31] that buy and sell all day long, the
[15:32] mutual fund companies, the pension
[15:34] funds. You will have small ini
[15:36] individuals who as I say come home from
[15:38] work and want to trade. That may that
[15:41] means that they will have a small far
[15:43] smaller pool of investors to choose from
[15:46] to trade with. that will increase
[15:48] volatility, make it more difficult for
[15:50] you to get in and out of your stocks at
[15:52] prices that do not move the market.
[15:54] >> Now, is that a good thing or a bad
[15:55] thing?
[15:56] >> Well, it's not a good thing initially
[15:57] because it increases your costs. I think
[15:59] that will be a factor. um any kind of a
[16:02] a new switch like this, I think that
[16:04] would be a result. But I think, you
[16:06] know, it's inevitable to a degree. And I
[16:08] think that we just have to make sure
[16:10] that we have the infrastructure, the the
[16:12] the systems in place to make sure there
[16:14] aren't breakdowns to make sure that
[16:16] there is a paper trail to make sure that
[16:18] everyone's transactions are affected
[16:20] efficiently.
[16:21] >> Okay. All right. Do you agree that this
[16:23] is going to eventually result in a
[16:25] universal 24-hour stock trading system?
[16:28] >> It very well could. I don't believe that
[16:32] I think a lot of Americans want to trade
[16:34] stocks at three in the morning, but
[16:36] maybe five do and maybe five should be
[16:38] allowed to do so. Um I, you know, it's
[16:41] the old traditional marketplace is
[16:44] really breaking down here and I think
[16:46] that's interesting and it's inevitable.
[16:48] So, you might as well not fight it,
[16:49] might as well join it, let it happen.
[16:52] >> Okay. Thank you very much.
[16:53] >> You're welcome.
[17:04] Who is the speaker of the house and how
[17:06] is he doing?Wami Homeman has the many
[17:08] answers.
[17:10] >> A group of leading Republican women met
[17:12] early this month in Washington and
[17:14] cheered enthusiastically for the speaker
[17:16] of the house, the former speaker.
[17:18] >> We miss him a lot and I hope you'll give
[17:20] a great welcome to our friend N.
[17:22] Gingrich.
[17:24] >> In his first major speech since
[17:26] resigning as House Speaker last fall, N.
[17:28] Gingrich roundly attacked President
[17:30] Clinton and the Democrats and said a few
[17:32] words about the man who replaced him as
[17:34] speaker, Dennis Hastard of Illinois.
[17:36] >> It's a tough tough job and my heart goes
[17:38] out to Denny Hastard. He's a great
[17:40] American and I think as he learns the
[17:42] job, he's going to do better and better
[17:43] and you're going to be very proud by
[17:45] next year.
[17:46] >> Such qualified praise of the new House
[17:48] Speaker is common even among
[17:50] Republicans. And when Dennis Hastard
[17:51] went before the same group a few hours
[17:53] later, the response was more subdued.
[17:56] >> Well, I'll tell you that was a very kind
[17:58] introduction. I probably ought to sit
[18:00] down while I'm ahead. But u never in my
[18:04] mind did I ever think I ever had a
[18:06] chance to be speaker of the house. That
[18:08] was just something that I never thought
[18:10] about. Hastard was thrust into the job
[18:13] in December when a much better known
[18:15] successor, Bob Livingston of Louisiana,
[18:17] abruptly withdrew after acknowledging
[18:19] extrammarital affairs.
[18:21] >> 99% of us were totally taken by
[18:24] surprise,
[18:25] that he wasn't going to run, uh wasn't
[18:28] going to accept the speakerhip.
[18:31] >> Fellow Illinois Republican Congressman
[18:33] Tom Ewing is a lifelong friend and
[18:35] Washington roommate of Dennis Hastard.
[18:37] >> I said, "Denny, you got to do this." And
[18:39] oh, he says,
[18:41] "I don't know. I don't know if I should
[18:43] do this or want to do this." And I said,
[18:45] "You're the person to do this." The
[18:48] 57year-old bastard was sworn in in
[18:50] January and being a man of few words,
[18:53] instantly exhibited an opposite persona
[18:55] to that of the high-profile Gingrich.
[18:57] >> And now, let's bring an end to talk and
[18:59] let's get to work.
[19:01] >> In the weeks since, the speaker at times
[19:03] has had trouble getting everyone's
[19:05] attention.
[19:06] >> The speaker on the floor deserves to be
[19:08] heard. Mr. Speaker, have you ever heard
[19:10] or read a report about yourself that
[19:13] didn't have low-key, quiet, behind the
[19:16] scenes, those kinds of things in it?
[19:18] >> No, I think that's pretty much how I am.
[19:20] Uh I don't try to be something that I'm
[19:22] not. Uh I know that uh I sat at the
[19:25] leadership uh table with N. Gingrich for
[19:28] four years. I'm not Nuke. Gingrich. Uh
[19:30] I'm a different type of person. I work
[19:33] hard. I try to do what I think is the
[19:36] right things and I do it on a day-by-day
[19:38] basis. Uh, you know, I I was a lineman
[19:43] and when I was in high school and
[19:44] college football, you never got a lot of
[19:46] glory, but you worked hard to get the
[19:48] job done and uh, you know, I think that
[19:51] persona kind of follows through. Castard
[19:54] already was a member of the House
[19:55] leadership, quietly serving as a deputy
[19:58] Republican whip. But the husband and
[20:00] father of two sons often could be found
[20:02] on weekends back in his hometown of
[20:04] Yorkville, Illinois, running errands or
[20:07] chatting up constituents at the grocery
[20:08] store. Hastard served three terms in the
[20:11] Illinois legislature. He's a former high
[20:13] school history teacher and highly
[20:15] competitive coach of the wrestling team.
[20:18] Only in recent days has the once
[20:20] reluctant speaker of the house begun to
[20:21] grant television interviews.
[20:23] >> You've been in the job 5 months now. How
[20:25] do you think it's going?
[20:26] >> I got a lot more gray hair.
[20:31] >> I think it's going as well as I could be
[20:33] expected. Uh you know, this is an
[20:35] incredible job. It's incredible
[20:37] opportunities, but it's also incredibly
[20:39] tough. Uh we have a five vote majority
[20:42] out of uh 435 members. That means that
[20:45] we have a committee of 222 people that
[20:49] we can never lose more than five people.
[20:51] If you do, you can't get the work done
[20:53] that you want to do. Uh that's a tough
[20:55] thing to do.
[20:57] >> Hastard already has experienced the
[20:59] pitfalls of leadership. Last month, he
[21:01] quietly cast a vote in favor of a
[21:03] democratic resolution endorsing NATO's
[21:05] air campaign against Yugoslavia. But the
[21:08] overwhelming majority of his rank and
[21:10] file Republicans voted no. The
[21:12] influential and strongly partisan
[21:14] Republican whip Tom Delay reportedly
[21:17] urged several Republicans to vote down
[21:19] the measure which failed in a tie. The
[21:22] next day, House Democratic leader
[21:24] Richard Gard aimed his criticism
[21:26] directly at the new speaker.
[21:28] >> The Republican leadership has shown an
[21:31] amazing lack of leadership.
[21:34] >> One report said, "You assured Mr. Gart
[21:36] easy passage."
[21:37] >> I didn't assure anybody. Uh we were down
[21:39] at the White House that day and I said
[21:41] if I looked at that now and I didn't
[21:43] know what the votes were going to be uh
[21:45] and I didn't even know what bill the
[21:47] Democrats were going to bring up. We
[21:49] really didn't know what bill they're
[21:50] going to bring up.
[21:51] >> Martin Frost of Texas, a member of the
[21:53] House Democratic leadership echoes the
[21:55] charge that Hastard hasn't firmly
[21:57] grasped the reigns of power. He says he
[22:00] wants to do things and he says he wants
[22:02] to be bipartisan and yet he permits a
[22:05] harshly partisan individual like Tom
[22:08] Delay to the House whip the Republican
[22:11] whip to call a lot of the shots to be
[22:14] the public's face of the Republican
[22:16] party uh to be the face of the of the
[22:19] House of Representatives. If you look at
[22:21] Meet the Press or you look at the at the
[22:24] uh interview shows on the weekends you
[22:26] don't see Denny Hastard, you see Tom
[22:28] Delay. Many people are suggesting very
[22:30] strongly that you are the de facto
[22:32] speaker. That Dennis Hastard is nothing
[22:34] more than a puppet.
[22:36] Dennis Hastard is speaker of the house
[22:39] and he is the right man for the right
[22:41] time and he's already proven that he is
[22:43] the speaker of the house and I support
[22:45] him. Tom Delay, you know, isn't running
[22:47] things and they're like, you know,
[22:49] there's like any political organization,
[22:51] people who like to drive wedges here and
[22:53] there. Uh I worked with Tom Delay for
[22:56] four years in the majority. I matter of
[22:58] fact ran his campaign to make him a whip
[23:00] and I was his chief deputy whip for four
[23:03] years. Uh sometimes we agree and
[23:05] sometimes we don't agree but we also
[23:07] have a very straight policy that we talk
[23:10] to each other in a very straight basis.
[23:12] Uh he felt very strongly about the war
[23:15] in Kosovo and uh little difference from
[23:17] I from the way I did. Uh he didn't
[23:19] change any votes on the floor and we
[23:21] didn't whip it that day. So he may have
[23:23] expressed his opinion but I don't think
[23:25] anything changed. So Dennis Hastard is
[23:27] in charge.
[23:28] >> Absolutely.
[23:31] >> Hastard rebounded quickly in the eyes of
[23:33] some critics when earlier this month he
[23:36] stared down one of the most powerful
[23:37] members of Congress, Senator Robert Bird
[23:40] of West Virginia.
[23:41] >> Run over me. That's all right. But tell
[23:45] the good speaker that I'm not dropping
[23:47] anything. You vote me down. He's a
[23:50] speaker. He's a mighty man. Bird had
[23:52] insisted a loan guarantee program for
[23:54] steel companies be added to an emergency
[23:57] spending bill, but Speaker Hastard
[23:59] convinced a handful of Republican
[24:00] appropriators to switch their earlier
[24:02] votes and reject the proposal in
[24:04] exchange for a later vote on the issue.
[24:07] >> I've been assured by the speaker that
[24:08] the uh steel guarantee loan proposal
[24:12] will be on the floor of the house as a
[24:14] freestanding bill and as such I would
[24:16] vote for it. I think that's the
[24:18] >> bird relented. This was a very important
[24:21] gesture by the speaker and it may be one
[24:24] of the first defining moments of his uh
[24:27] speakership.
[24:28] >> Marshall Wittmann watches Congress for
[24:30] the conservative think tank the Heritage
[24:32] Foundation.
[24:32] >> He actually in intervened with the group
[24:35] on Capitol Hill known as the Cardinals,
[24:38] the appropriators, and told them that he
[24:40] didn't want pork. And the reason why it
[24:42] was so critical is because it will set
[24:45] the mood for the rest of the year on
[24:46] spending bills. But perhaps more
[24:48] importantly, Denny Hassard showed who
[24:51] was boss on a critical issue.
[24:54] >> A week later, Hastard stepped in and
[24:56] spoke up preemptively on the issue of
[24:58] gun control, avoiding for House
[25:00] Republicans the political embarrassment
[25:02] suffered by their Senate colleagues who
[25:04] were forced to reverse themselves on a
[25:06] gun measure. Now, we know it's against
[25:07] the federal law to buy a purchase a
[25:10] handgun at a federally licensed gun
[25:12] store or a federally licensed pawn shop,
[25:15] but there are pawn shops and there are
[25:17] situations at gun shows with some
[25:19] dealers who are not licensed that it's
[25:22] actually legal for a person under 21
[25:24] years of age to purchase a handgun. I
[25:27] think that's wrong. Hastard says such a
[25:29] statement should not be a surprise, even
[25:31] though it comes from a man who, like
[25:33] most other Republicans, voted against
[25:35] major gun controls a few years ago.
[25:38] >> This is not a a major change for Dennis
[25:40] Hastard in terms of
[25:41] >> I think it's I think this is common
[25:43] sense. I think the American people think
[25:45] it's common sense to do this as well.
[25:47] >> Hastard has a philosophy for approaching
[25:49] the job of House Speaker.
[25:50] >> Uh the best way to get something done is
[25:53] to get get things done on time. So we
[25:56] got the budget on time. We've set out
[25:58] the parameters for a tax bill. We're
[26:00] trying to get the appropriation bills
[26:01] through the process without a lot of
[26:03] extra money. And we're trying to save
[26:05] social security. We're trying to improve
[26:07] education. We've said we think every kid
[26:09] needs a good school and a safe school to
[26:11] go to.
[26:12] >> But Democrats complain they too have an
[26:14] agenda and that Hastard is dragging his
[26:17] feet while the legislative clock ticks.
[26:19] >> Every week they keep taking days off the
[26:22] legislative calendar. We don't work on
[26:23] Mondays. We don't work on Fridays. We
[26:25] don't come in till six. uh 6:00 p.m. on
[26:28] Tuesdays. We give away entire weeks. If
[26:31] they were serious about doing campaign
[26:32] finance reform, if they were serious
[26:34] about HMO reform, if they were serious
[26:36] about education issues, we'd be in
[26:38] session 5 days a week, at least 4 days a
[26:40] week. We're in session two and a half
[26:42] days a week right now. Uh and that's
[26:45] doesn't give you a lot of time to do
[26:46] anything.
[26:47] >> The speaker and the Republicans have a
[26:49] dilemma because they have such a narrow
[26:52] majority. It's next to impossible to get
[26:55] bills passed unless they have the
[26:56] support of some Democrats. And of
[26:59] course, the Democrats don't want
[27:00] anything to pass because they don't want
[27:03] the Republicans to have accomplishments
[27:06] as they approach the year 2000. So,
[27:08] therein lies the rub.
[27:10] >> Examples of that dilemma occurred this
[27:12] week. On Wednesday, a group of
[27:14] conservative Republicans worried
[27:16] Congress would spend too much money this
[27:18] year held up consideration of a major
[27:20] agriculture spending bill. Yesterday,
[27:23] Speaker Hastard pulled from the floor a
[27:25] defense bill because disputes over China
[27:27] and Kosovo policies threatened to derail
[27:29] it. Nonetheless, Illinois's Tom Ewing
[27:32] insists Dennis Hastard has exactly the
[27:34] skills needed for these times.
[27:37] >> We had him picked to be speaker of the
[27:39] Illinois House
[27:41] 20 years ago. Uh and then he moved to
[27:44] Congress and we thought, "Oh, we lost
[27:45] one of our best candidates." The man has
[27:48] that talent and it's obvious to his
[27:53] uh associates and colleagues uh that
[27:57] deal with him. You know, it's a unique
[27:59] opportunity to be the speaker of the
[28:01] house. Not a lot of people in the
[28:02] history of this country have ever been
[28:04] able to do it. Uh my goal is to do the
[28:06] best job I can here every day and try to
[28:10] not disappoint the people who elected
[28:12] me, speaker, or the American people.
[28:14] Thank you uh for being here and giving
[28:16] me the opportunity to spend some time
[28:17] with you tonight. Thank you very much.
[28:22] >> If anything, Speaker Hastard may be even
[28:24] more optimistic than those around him.
[28:26] He says there's a good chance
[28:27] Republicans and Democrats will reach a
[28:29] deal on Social Security and Medicare
[28:32] reform this year, contrary to the
[28:34] widespread belief in Washington.
[28:36] Still to come on the NewsHour tonight,
[28:38] Shields and Gigo, the Templeton Prize
[28:41] winner, and a Roger Rosenblat essay.
[28:53] Mark and Paul are with Margaret Warner
[28:55] >> and Mark Shields is a syndicated
[28:57] columnist. Paul Jigo is a columnist for
[28:59] the Wall Street Journal. So Mark, what's
[29:02] your take on Dennis Hastard? I mean is
[29:04] it is he just in an untenable position
[29:06] or do you think someone else with
[29:08] different skills would be able to lead
[29:10] what did he call it a committee of 222?
[29:12] Well, as I was listening towami's piece,
[29:15] as he interviewed Speaker Hastard, I was
[29:17] reminded election night 1998, when it
[29:20] became apparent the Democrats, instead
[29:21] of losing seats, as was expected, were
[29:23] going to pick up House seats. I talked
[29:25] to one of Dick Gart's talk political
[29:27] lieutenants. There was still enough
[29:28] races unsettled that it appeared the
[29:31] Democrats might have a chance, a real
[29:32] fighting chance of taking over control
[29:34] of the House. And I said, "You guys
[29:35] could have 220 by the end of the night."
[29:37] At which point he said, "God, I hope
[29:39] not." uh thus meaning you know would be
[29:42] in the impossible position of trying to
[29:44] organize the house in seventh year of a
[29:46] president as well of their own party but
[29:48] still it it is such a raise a thin
[29:50] margin uh Nuke Gingrich Tip O'Neal Sam
[29:54] Rurn it is tough and especially with
[29:57] independents and especially there are
[29:58] real profound and honest differences
[30:01] within the Republican caucus on real
[30:03] issues
[30:04] >> why doesn't the need for political
[30:07] survival
[30:09] make the republic Republicans Paul stick
[30:12] together and say we we got to get
[30:13] through this
[30:15] >> because they each define their political
[30:16] survival differently. Chris Shayes in
[30:19] New England says what does the New York
[30:20] Times think about my position on
[30:22] campaign finance reform? Nobody a lot of
[30:24] other people don't care about that. The
[30:26] conservatives elected in '94 say well we
[30:29] want to have spending control. the
[30:31] appropriators, you know, there three
[30:32] parties in Congress, Democrats,
[30:34] Republicans, and the appropriators,
[30:36] both parties. I mean, they say, "This is
[30:38] the era of surpluses. We don't want to
[30:40] meet these budget caps. It's party time.
[30:43] We're drunken sailors again. We can
[30:45] spend, spend, spend." That creates these
[30:47] natural clashes. And it's very hard for
[30:49] anybody, it would be, as Mark says, for
[30:51] anybody to control it. And Denny
[30:52] Hastard, I think it's fair to say, is
[30:54] moving slowly to exercise his
[30:57] leadership. One canard I think that is
[30:59] around Washington that I think is not
[31:00] true is that somehow he is a mere
[31:02] mouthpiece for Tom Delay. I don't think
[31:04] that's true at all. Uh I think he is his
[31:07] own man and he has a a measure of
[31:09] respect quite apart from delay within
[31:11] the Republican conference. A measure of
[31:14] goodwill. What Hastard has been slow to
[31:16] do I think is to exercise his clout and
[31:19] he's going to have to do that on more
[31:20] and more issues
[31:21] >> the way he did with Bird.
[31:22] >> Exactly.
[31:24] So just one point Chris Shayes whom
[31:27] Margaret from Connecticut and the
[31:29] leading Republican sponsor of campaign
[31:31] finance legislation, the McCain fine
[31:34] counterpart in the House was Marty Mian
[31:36] of Massachusetts said this week to a
[31:38] group of reporters at breakfast that Tom
[31:40] Delay was the most powerful member of
[31:43] Congress. Uh and he just just in saying
[31:46] that uh uh
[31:49] yesterday his mouthpiece.
[31:50] >> No, no, but acknowledge acknowledging
[31:51] that his respect for Denny Hast and and
[31:54] stating it quite openly uh that he dealt
[31:57] with him honorably and all the rest of
[31:58] it, but that Tom Delay was the most
[32:00] powerful which which is a rare that
[32:01] that's that's unique where you've had a
[32:03] whip who's eclipsed a speaker in that
[32:06] sense. And I I think you know he came
[32:08] this can't be forgotten. This is a man
[32:10] who Nuke Gingrich left the speakerhip
[32:12] because he couldn't get reelected to
[32:14] speaker. Uh I mean he had six or seven
[32:16] Republicans who weren't going to vote
[32:17] for him for a re-election which meant
[32:18] Dick Gart then could be the the speaker
[32:21] if they honored their threat. Bob
[32:23] Livingston the chairman of the
[32:24] appropriators but a powerful inside
[32:26] player in the in the house was going to
[32:28] be next and except he had problems uh of
[32:31] a personal nature which were exposed and
[32:33] 10 were going to take a ride with him
[32:35] and take a run away from him. So he's in
[32:36] an awful position. the the person who
[32:38] caused the most trouble this week out of
[32:40] conviction is Tom Coburn of Oklahoma.
[32:42] Tom Coburn is a doctor from Oklahoma, a
[32:44] true conservative, a true believer, and
[32:46] he's upset with what he sees this
[32:48] runaway uh action of Congress that
[32:50] they're not not being consistent with
[32:52] the conservative philosophy that he
[32:54] believes the Republican party stood for.
[32:56] And Margaret, what are you going to do
[32:57] to Tom Coburn? Tom Coburn took the term
[33:00] limits pledge when he got elected and
[33:02] he's leaving. What are you going to do?
[33:03] You going to threaten him? You're going
[33:04] to tell him he's not going to have good
[33:05] office next time? He's not going to be
[33:06] here next time. So, it's a really
[33:08] impossible position.
[33:09] >> I want to talk about the Shea's example
[33:10] because I think that that does
[33:12] illustrate part of the problem. I mean,
[33:14] Hastard sat down with Shaes and said,
[33:16] "You can have a vote on campaign finance
[33:19] in September." And Shaes and you would
[33:22] think that, you know, it's only 3 months
[33:23] away. It's a vote in the in the that
[33:25] he's going to get it on everybody on
[33:26] record. And Sheay said, "No." He said,
[33:29] "No, I want it before." Now, what can
[33:31] you do? Basically, Shayes is saying, "I
[33:33] don't trust you, Speaker Hastard, to
[33:35] give me that vote or I don't trust you
[33:38] somehow not to to work this against my
[33:40] interest." That's the kind of problem he
[33:43] has. And I guess you only build that
[33:45] trust over time. But when you have
[33:48] congressmen like that who have
[33:49] relatively safe seats running off in
[33:51] that direction, it's very hard to exert
[33:53] leadership.
[33:53] >> Now, Mark, one, let's just shift to the
[33:56] >> Just one correction. Chris Shayes Chris
[33:59] Shayes on campaign finance reform is
[34:01] deeply concerned over one thing and so
[34:04] does everybody else for campaign finance
[34:05] reform. It goes to September Margaret
[34:07] then they are into appropriations bills
[34:08] and it dies in the Senate. That is Mitch
[34:11] McConnell's plan. It is the plan of Tom
[34:13] Delay. It's the plan of Trent Lot. Okay.
[34:15] They want to kill campaign finance. His
[34:17] point is that the only way that the
[34:20] Senate is going to deal with it is if
[34:21] they get it early enough. And that's
[34:23] that was the reason why that's why 26
[34:25] Republicans
[34:26] to the Cox Commission report, Chinese
[34:29] spying, because that was the big thing
[34:31] that the Republicans were waiting for
[34:32] this week.
[34:34] >> What do you make of the way the Hill
[34:35] responded to this? What are Republicans
[34:37] on the Hill going to do with this?
[34:39] >> Well, I think they're going to have some
[34:40] continuing oversight. They're going to
[34:42] pass the recommendations uh which will
[34:44] probably pass on a bipartisan basis for
[34:46] uh to improve the export controls. uh
[34:49] they're going to uh uh have some
[34:51] continuing investigation, I think, of
[34:53] the way this was the the the espionage
[34:57] uh charges, the espionage news was
[34:59] pursued by the administration. For
[35:00] example, Janet Reno was up defending her
[35:03] department's failure to issue a wire tap
[35:06] on one of the alleged uh uh spies once
[35:09] they had uh word for it. I think news of
[35:12] it. That's the way they're going to go.
[35:13] I think the bigger meaning of this
[35:14] though is not in Congress so much. into
[35:17] the presidential campaign and it's going
[35:19] to be I think the Cox report really blow
[35:21] a hole through the strategic partnership
[35:24] policy of the Clinton administration and
[35:26] you're going to see the Republican
[35:27] presidential candidates make China and
[35:29] US relations with China and the security
[35:31] issue with China a centerpiece of their
[35:33] uh foreign policy u uh attack on uh on
[35:37] the Clinton Gore administration.
[35:38] >> Do you see it that way in terms of the
[35:40] political fallout?
[35:40] >> I I think I think there there's a more
[35:42] immediate political fallout. I think you
[35:44] can say uh so long to W world trade
[35:46] organization. I don't think anybody's
[35:47] going to vote for that right now. And I
[35:49] think fasttrack is uh trade uh authority
[35:53] is is very much on the back of all back
[35:56] burners. Um
[35:57] >> but what about in terms of China's most
[35:59] favor China most favor nation status
[36:02] will go through. Uh but it'll just be a
[36:04] year. I mean it won't be it won't get
[36:06] the permanent extension. Uh and because
[36:08] nobody wants to vote for China right now
[36:09] that Paul's right. It's moved to a
[36:11] political issue in this sense, but it's
[36:13] a problem for the Republicans. It's a
[36:14] problem for the Republicans because uh
[36:16] two things in the in the report itself,
[36:19] there was no connection made on the
[36:21] campaign money that was given by the
[36:23] Chinese to the Democrats in 1996. They
[36:25] couldn't get they couldn't establish
[36:27] this connection in the Cox report. That
[36:28] disappointed a lot of Republicans. A lot
[36:30] of Republicans were disappointed that
[36:31] there wasn't more raw meat in there and
[36:33] and Chris Cox got some grumbling on
[36:34] this, the the chairman for that matter.
[36:36] The problem is this is it moves into a
[36:39] public a public political issue. The
[36:42] basic money in China doesn't come from
[36:44] China. It comes from it comes from
[36:46] multinational corporations who want
[36:49] total engagement, who want total trade,
[36:52] who want total openness to the Chinese
[36:54] markets and all of that and and want
[36:56] basically an administration that's
[36:57] uncritical of China and what China is
[36:59] doing to its own people or might not be
[37:01] doing in the trade business. So that is
[37:03] that's where it's going to be. The
[37:04] tension point is going to be between the
[37:06] backers, benefactors, contributors to
[37:08] the Republican party and to the
[37:10] Democrats. Make no mistake about it.
[37:11] They were lined up on Democratic
[37:13] commerce secretaries planes to go over
[37:15] there as well as rather than the voters.
[37:19] Republican voters I think are Paul's
[37:20] absolutely right. They are angry and
[37:22] they're upset. My turn to issue a
[37:24] correction. I think the Cox Chris Cox
[37:26] the reason he didn't get to the campaign
[37:28] finance link was that was the concession
[37:31] he had to make to the Democrats to make
[37:33] it bipartisan. He said we're going to
[37:34] focus on the security aspects. That
[37:36] doesn't mean that the Republicans
[37:38] elsewhere aren't going to be making
[37:39] those connections or trying to make
[37:41] those connections those and drawing
[37:43] inferences. The other thing on the on
[37:44] the on the business community, Bill
[37:46] Clinton has had a benefit in his China
[37:47] policy for I think six years because
[37:49] he's been able to separate the business
[37:51] community from the security issue and
[37:53] the security hawks in the Republican
[37:54] party. What I think the Cox report does
[37:56] and the failure of the president to walk
[37:59] when the president walked away from the
[38:01] World Trade Agreement a month ago, this
[38:04] shows a lot of the business people that
[38:06] if you're not credible on security, you
[38:08] can't sell a trade agreement. And I
[38:10] think that's going to reunite a lot of
[38:12] the criticism of the the business
[38:14] community with some of the security
[38:15] people and give uh even George Bush and
[38:17] some of the moderates on China, if you
[38:19] will, a chance to make a case against
[38:21] the administration.
[38:22] >> Do you think anyone, Mark, in the
[38:24] administration is going to really is
[38:26] going to lose their job over this? I
[38:27] mean, there have been a lot of members
[38:29] of Congress calling for Attorney General
[38:30] Reno to resign or be fired, for Sandy
[38:33] Burgerer to resign or be fired. And uh
[38:36] he said on the show last night to Jim he
[38:38] didn't plan to do that.
[38:40] Yeah, I think that's Sandy Burgerer
[38:42] right now.
[38:44] He's not gone. He's staying. And that's
[38:45] Janet Rino.
[38:47] No, I I would uh I don't think right now
[38:49] that that's certainly has been a pattern
[38:51] or a tradition in this administration of
[38:53] of people leaving uh either over
[38:56] principle or under a cloud. Um but uh I
[38:59] I think one of one of the surprises,
[39:01] Margaret, has been that there hasn't
[39:02] been a greater fallout on on this uh on
[39:05] this China on the
[39:06] >> sort of concerted
[39:08] >> there really hasn't been that sense of a
[39:10] fire and and an outrage and uproar. It
[39:12] really is. It's it is surprising. It
[39:14] comes back.
[39:15] >> It's a serious report.
[39:16] >> It's a serious report and and and and
[39:18] one Democrat said to me this week, he
[39:19] said, you know, he said, "We've had an
[39:21] awful week." He said, "The president's
[39:22] poll numbers are down. Kosovo is not
[39:25] going well." I mean you you name it. Uh
[39:28] things aren't the China report comes out
[39:30] and yet what's the bad story going into
[39:32] the holiday weekend and the and the
[39:34] recess of all next week is that the
[39:36] Republicans are in disarray. They
[39:38] couldn't pass an appropriations bill for
[39:39] legislative appropriations. They had to
[39:41] adjourn the house early and the speaker
[39:43] has given interviews saying I'm in
[39:44] charge and Tom Delay isn't. So I mean in
[39:46] a strange world way that the story is it
[39:49] wasn't a bigger story
[39:50] >> inside baseball mostly on
[39:52] appropriations. That's not that big a
[39:53] story. But the reason there's not a
[39:54] bigger story and there the the people
[39:56] and the administration may lose jobs is
[39:58] the incredible astonishing discipline of
[40:00] the Democrats. I mean you if if if only
[40:03] Republicans are calling for people to
[40:05] resign, it's not going to happen. When
[40:07] Bob Torselli said on sun one of the
[40:09] Sunday shows that he thought Janet Reno
[40:11] should think about resigning. He went
[40:14] back to his the Democratic caucus on
[40:15] Tuesday and I'm told he had a very rough
[40:17] time with it because they said you can't
[40:19] do that. you can't make open open this
[40:22] up to Republicans attack that just
[40:25] validates the Republican themes. He
[40:26] said, "Wait a minute. Sometimes you have
[40:28] to tell the truth." And and if she said
[40:31] that,
[40:31] >> Yeah. And if you haven't done your job,
[40:34] then that's uh uh uh uh you know, then
[40:36] we have to to speak up. So, I mean, it's
[40:39] it's the Democrats who were sticking by
[40:41] the administration in this one as they
[40:42] have on so many others.
[40:44] >> All right, we have to leave it there.
[40:45] Have a great weekend.
[40:46] >> Thank you.
[40:54] Next, a prize-winning merger of science
[40:57] and religion. And to Elizabeth
[40:58] Farnsworth in San Francisco,
[41:02] >> the Templeton Prize for Progress in
[41:04] Religion is given each year to an
[41:06] individual who in the official wording
[41:08] has shown extraordinary originality
[41:10] advancing the world's understanding of
[41:12] God andor spirituality. John Markx
[41:15] Templeton, who founded several
[41:17] investment funds, established the prize
[41:19] in 1972. Its first recipient was Mother
[41:22] Teresa. This year, the prize went to
[41:24] physicist and theologian Ian Barber. He
[41:27] was cited for pioneering a framework for
[41:29] discussing scientific issues with
[41:31] significant moral and ethical
[41:33] implications. Barber is professor
[41:36] ameritus at Carlton College in Minnesota
[41:38] and has written or edited a dozen books
[41:40] including issues in science and
[41:42] religion. Congratulations, Professor
[41:44] Barber, and thank you for being with us.
[41:46] >> Thank you for having me on.
[41:48] >> You got a PhD in physics at the
[41:50] University of Chicago. You studied under
[41:52] the physicist who had carried out the
[41:54] first uh atomic chain reaction, as I
[41:56] understand it, and Rico Fairmy. And then
[41:59] a few years later, you went to Yale and
[42:00] got a divinity degree, why? What drives
[42:03] this interest in both fields?
[42:06] Well, after I'd uh been teaching physics
[42:08] for a few years, I felt the need to
[42:12] study ethics and theology to look at
[42:15] some of the issues that had come out of
[42:17] science. And after I got a second degree
[42:20] at Yale, uh Carlton College offered me a
[42:24] joint appointment halftime in physics
[42:26] and halftime in the religion department.
[42:28] So I think it started as a sort of
[42:30] personal quest to uh integrate these two
[42:33] halves of my own life and as I got into
[42:36] writing I found other people were quite
[42:39] interested in these issues and there's
[42:41] been a growing interest. I think the the
[42:43] popular image is of science and religion
[42:47] in conflict or in warfare. The the
[42:50] atheistic uh scientist on the one hand
[42:53] and the uh creationist or biblical
[42:56] literalist on the other. One believes in
[42:57] evolution but not God. The other
[42:59] believes in God but not evolution. But
[43:01] what about the people in between who
[43:03] believe in God and evolution or who see
[43:07] evolution as God's way of creating. So
[43:10] that that's the the area that I've been
[43:12] exploring and there are a significant
[43:15] number of scientists. There was a
[43:16] >> excuse me one minute. You said that
[43:18] interest in it is growing. Why is it
[43:20] growing? It's on the cover of magazines.
[43:22] I noticed it's been on Newsweek on US
[43:23] News and World Report. the the interest
[43:25] in the dialogue between the two. The
[43:27] American Association of the Advancement
[43:29] for Science has a special office devoted
[43:31] to this dialogue. Why is it because of
[43:34] changes in science?
[43:36] >> No, I think it's more attitudes towards
[43:38] science. I think scientists are more
[43:40] aware of the limitations of their
[43:43] specialized disciplines. Their
[43:45] disciplines raise boundary questions.
[43:49] They raise ethical questions that
[43:51] science doesn't itself answer. And I
[43:53] think at the other hand uh theologians
[43:56] are more aware of the need to
[43:58] reformulate ideas uh particularly ideas
[44:01] of God and of human nature in the light
[44:04] of science. So that this opens up at
[44:06] least some some humility some
[44:08] recognition that that no discipline has
[44:11] all the answers. Let's start with um one
[44:14] of the scientific dis discoveries that
[44:16] seems to have opened up um a new room
[44:19] for religious discussion with scientists
[44:21] and that's the these discoveries that
[44:23] come out regularly in cosmology about
[44:26] the big bang and the expansion of the
[44:28] universe. Am I right to believe that
[44:30] it's opened more talking between the two
[44:33] disciplines?
[44:33] >> I think it has.
[44:34] >> And why why
[44:36] >> I think because again questions are
[44:38] raised that are sort of at the boundary
[44:40] of science. You don't need to rel raise
[44:42] religious questions when you're doing
[44:44] your daily scientific work. But when you
[44:46] when you ask where it fits into a larger
[44:49] framework as you press back in time to a
[44:52] beginning the big bang uh which we
[44:55] thought was 15 billion years ago. I
[44:58] think a couple of weeks ago NASA said
[45:00] the evidence points more towards 12
[45:03] billion years. But what happened at t
[45:05] equals z? Um
[45:06] >> you mean when time equals zero in all
[45:08] this? In other words, that that's sort
[45:10] of the singularity at which the laws of
[45:12] physics break down. And the question,
[45:15] why is there a universe at all? Why does
[45:17] it have the kind of order that it has?
[45:18] In particularly, why are the constants
[45:22] so finely tuned that life is possible?
[45:25] You know, Hawkins said that if the force
[45:27] of gravity were smaller by one part in a
[45:31] thousand million million, the universe
[45:34] would have collapsed before it had time
[45:36] for planets and galaxies to form, for
[45:40] the heavy elements to form. Uh if it had
[45:42] been just a fraction lower, it would
[45:44] have expanded too too rapidly for matter
[45:47] to coales. So that that's the kind of
[45:49] question that that I think is raised by
[45:51] science but not answered by science. Is
[45:54] there a kind of design there? Uh, at
[45:56] least at least the idea of of a
[45:58] beginning. Now, of course, you can say
[46:00] it's all chance and the the atheist
[46:02] scientist tends to say, well, there may
[46:05] be billions of universes, not just
[46:07] billions of galaxies, but billions of
[46:08] universes. We just happen to live in one
[46:11] in which all these constants come out,
[46:13] right? Well, I think that that's a
[46:15] possible answer. It's not scientifically
[46:18] verifiable because there's there's no
[46:19] communication among these galaxies. But
[46:22] I think I think this uh this kind of I
[46:25] think there is a greater humility on the
[46:27] scientific side.
[46:28] >> You've written a lot about technology.
[46:30] Um do you think that religion has an
[46:33] important role to play right now with
[46:34] the technological
[46:36] uh issues with the the the ethical
[46:38] issues raised by technology like cloning
[46:40] for example?
[46:41] >> Yes. I think I think scientists are are
[46:44] more likely to recognize today that the
[46:48] applications of science raise ethical
[46:51] issues that their own discipline cannot
[46:53] answer. Science can tell you what's
[46:55] possible, but it can't tell you what's
[46:57] desirable, what one should do. And and
[46:59] cloning is a good example. It's fine to
[47:01] uh think about cloning Dolly the sheep
[47:04] uh for medical purposes, but when you
[47:07] talk about cloning human beings um then
[47:11] it becomes more dubious. What what are
[47:13] the motives? A father might want a son
[47:17] exactly like himself or a mother might
[47:19] want to replace a child that's died or
[47:23] supply organs for a child with a with a
[47:25] disease. But I think that's using people
[47:28] for other purposes than rather than
[47:31] valuing them in themselves. And I don't
[47:32] think the biblical tradition uh gives
[47:35] you a neat answer. I mean there's no
[47:37] verse in the Bible that says thou shalt
[47:39] not clone or or thou shalt clone. It's a
[47:41] it's a new problem never faced before.
[47:44] And I think in that kind of of issue um
[47:47] the biblical tradition does hold up the
[47:49] value of the individual. uh the family
[47:52] the family is kind of broken up by if a
[47:55] father's uh clone is both a son in a
[47:59] different generation and a twin uh
[48:03] this and no woman is involved uh in the
[48:07] genetic uh heritage. The the whole
[48:09] family structure is is is more severely
[48:12] threatened than any other reproductive
[48:14] technology. And I think that raises
[48:16] questions in which the religious
[48:17] community and the scientific community
[48:20] and and the public in general needs to
[48:22] get involved because that's a problem
[48:24] that science itself doesn't answer. It's
[48:26] the question of of what what contributes
[48:29] to human welfare, what contributes to
[48:31] human justice.
[48:32] >> Are there dangers here? After all, it
[48:35] took centuries for science and religion
[48:37] to separate and for superstition not to
[48:40] block scientific progress. Aren't there
[48:43] dangers if science and religion become
[48:45] too close again?
[48:46] >> There are dangers if the scientist
[48:49] claims to answer questions that are not
[48:51] really scientific ones. Uh but uh and
[48:54] that's certainly been the cause of
[48:56] conflict in the past or when the
[48:58] religious person is outside of their
[49:01] territory and gets into uh making
[49:03] scientific pronouncements. But I think
[49:05] if each recognizes their limitations and
[49:08] is open to the other and to the need to
[49:10] reformulate the ideas, I find
[49:12] theologians are rethinking the concept
[49:14] of God in an evolutionary world, the
[49:17] concept of human nature. And I think
[49:19] this is uh a challenge as one faces the
[49:22] new millennium. How can we guide
[49:24] technology towards human betterment?
[49:27] >> Your prize uh the Templeton prize is
[49:29] $1.2 million. What will you do with it?
[49:32] Well, I've given a million to the Center
[49:34] for Theology and Natural Sciences in
[49:36] Berkeley, California. A center that has
[49:39] been promoting this dialogue between uh
[49:41] scientists and theologians. This is to
[49:43] be an endowment to help them carry on
[49:45] their work.
[49:46] >> Well, thank you so much and
[49:47] congratulations again.
[49:49] >> Thank you.
[49:57] And speaking of human nature, finally
[49:59] tonight, essaist Roger Rosenblad
[50:01] considers the reactions to two recent
[50:04] tragedies.
[50:06] People are said to show their true and
[50:08] surprising colors when calamity occurs,
[50:10] but I've never believed it. I think that
[50:12] people are who they are in normal states
[50:14] of repose, and that calamity more often
[50:17] distorts character than reveals it. Yet
[50:20] the events in Littleton, Colorado and
[50:22] Oklahoma City suggest that people can in
[50:25] fact remain constant, calamity or no
[50:27] calamity, and that when something goes
[50:29] terribly wrong, it only makes clear who
[50:31] they've been all along.
[50:38] What was heartening in the otherwise
[50:40] heartbreaking news from Littleton and
[50:41] Oklahoma City was that most people are
[50:44] decent, intelligent, fair-minded,
[50:46] sympathetic, generous to others,
[50:48] equipped with a perspective that allows
[50:50] them to grasp the larger pictures. In
[50:53] short, altogether okay.
[50:56] Nearly everyone who came into view as a
[50:58] result of the Littleton killings was
[50:59] hugely impressive. The parents of the
[51:02] families of victims of the killings were
[51:04] brave and clear-headed inside their
[51:06] visible unbearable pain.
[51:09] >> It is time for change and it's time for
[51:11] the NRA and us to change our agenda.
[51:15] Thank you very much.
[51:16] >> The father of Daniel Mouser, one of the
[51:18] boys killed, spoke forcefully at a
[51:21] protest rally against the NRA meeting in
[51:23] Denver, but without unreasonable
[51:25] passion. And when he later appeared on
[51:27] TV, his anger was wholly rational. He
[51:30] made a meticulous distinction between
[51:32] what he felt was the NRA's indirect
[51:34] responsibility for the killings and
[51:36] anything more heated. He spoke of giving
[51:39] fair and judicious treatment to the man
[51:41] who sold the killers one of their guns.
[51:45] Similarly, the family of Rachel Joyce
[51:47] Scott appeared and spoke both grimly and
[51:49] sympathetically of the parents of the
[51:51] killers.
[51:53] And Rachel's younger brother Craig
[51:55] appeared with Michael Scholes, father of
[51:56] another murdered boy, Isaiah. each
[51:59] holding on to the other in gestures of
[52:01] quiet mutual kindness.
[52:04] In Oklahoma City, there was more of the
[52:06] same after the tornado. People who had
[52:09] not lost their houses were shown taking
[52:11] in those who did.
[52:13] >> People who had lost everything spoke
[52:15] with a normal mixture of shock, sorrow,
[52:17] and resignation.
[52:19] A man who had been carried 400 yards by
[52:21] the winds was level-headedly grateful to
[52:23] be alive. Another who had been caught in
[52:26] the Oklahoma City federal building
[52:28] bombing refused to make an easy
[52:30] melodramatic statement about irony or
[52:33] fate.
[52:35] Those in hospitals and whose children
[52:36] were also hospitalized spoke wearily
[52:39] quite sensibly afraid of starting over.
[52:42] Those who had lost families spoke
[52:44] humanly of grief.
[52:46] One would wish, of course, that no
[52:48] disasters occurred to bring these people
[52:50] and their private lives before the
[52:51] country's attention. And it's often
[52:54] unsemly that people are able to discuss
[52:56] their troubles before a camera so
[52:58] readily. Yet in these cases, more was
[53:01] revealed than mere familiarity with
[53:02] television.
[53:04] Exposed by devastation, these people
[53:06] were witnesses to the stronger stuff of
[53:08] the species.
[53:10] External nature and the darkest holes of
[53:12] human nature had brought them forward
[53:14] where better natures prevailed.
[53:17] They were not, as usually happens,
[53:19] broken down into categories that bear
[53:21] simple-minded expectations.
[53:24] When people are shown as members of
[53:26] striking unions, political parties,
[53:28] ethnic groups, and so forth, they behave
[53:30] as special interests. Women for women,
[53:33] policemen for policemen, victims for
[53:35] victims, and on and on.
[53:38] But here, in these two great sadnesses,
[53:41] people simply behave like people.
[53:43] moderate in judgment, giving in
[53:45] attitude, sensible when nothing around
[53:47] them made any sense.
[53:50] >> The rap against people generally as
[53:52] evolving animals is that we have yet to
[53:54] learn to get along in groups. It's
[53:57] evident in wars and riots. It's evident
[54:00] at soccer games. But once in a while, it
[54:03] is encouraging to see that we may have a
[54:05] promising foundation for our evolution.
[54:07] After all,
[54:10] >> calline
[54:12] flower bloom tender.
[54:18] >> Hell in two places caused people to
[54:20] respond with clarity and strength. Which
[54:23] qualities could not have shown had they
[54:24] not been there all along. In the days
[54:27] before the boy killers opened fire and
[54:30] when Oklahoma City was as quiet as a
[54:32] mine.
[54:33] >> Will come to you in time. Call by friend
[54:40] of mine.
[54:43] >> I'm Roger Rosenl.
[54:51] Again, the major stories of this Friday.
[54:53] The Commerce Department reported
[54:55] consumer spending was up last month
[54:58] while saving was the lowest on record.
[55:00] The Dow Jones Industrial Average closed
[55:02] up 92 points at 10,559.
[55:06] And in Bgrade, Russia's special Kosovo
[55:08] envoy presented Yugoslav President
[55:10] Mallosvich with a peace plan and Allied
[55:13] air strikes were the heaviest yet. We'll
[55:16] see you online and again here Monday
[55:18] evening. Have a nice Memorial Day
[55:19] weekend. I'm Jim Lara. Thank you and
[55:21] good night.
[55:26] Brought to you in part by ADM. Feeding
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