Nightline (ABC) - 1992-03-04

Channel: malgent

Transcript

Language: English (original, YouTube automatic captions)

[0:01] It is the West's worst nightmare.

[0:06] >> If anything goes wrong during the

[0:08] transport, I don't want to appear as the

[0:10] owner of the merchandise.

[0:13] >> If the stuff is discovered at customs,

[0:15] we can manage the problem. We can buy

[0:17] off the customs people.

[0:18] >> What you're looking at is a secret

[0:20] transaction. Nuclear material. Origin

[0:23] the former Soviet Union being pedled to

[0:26] a foreign buyer. Tonight, a Nightline

[0:29] investigation. Nuclear secrets for sale.

[0:33] The new black market.

[0:48] This is an ABC News Night Line

[0:50] investigation

[0:52] reporting from Washington. Ted Cppel. We

[0:55] are great believers, we Americans, in

[0:58] the market with a capital M. We see it

[1:01] almost as a force of nature with its own

[1:03] dynamic. Just permit the market to do

[1:06] its thing, we murmur to the Commonwealth

[1:09] of Independent States that once made up

[1:11] the Soviet Union, and everything will be

[1:14] all right. We point to successful barter

[1:16] arrangements that introduced a

[1:18] generation of Soviets to Pepsi Cola,

[1:20] while Americans developed a taste for

[1:22] Stolich Naya vodka. not in and of itself

[1:25] the foundation of a successful new

[1:27] economic system, though. The Soviets

[1:30] have always wanted to buy Western

[1:32] technology and consumer goods. But the

[1:35] West has never had much faith in the

[1:37] ruble. The newly independent states

[1:39] would love to earn hard currency,

[1:42] dollars, marks, yen. But what do they

[1:45] have that anyone with that kind of money

[1:48] wants?

[1:49] >> For them, Marines, I can get Mr. It's

[1:52] clear. It's clear.

[1:54] Mhm.

[1:55] >> Understand me?

[1:55] >> Mhm.

[1:57] >> Aircraft, helicopters,

[2:00] all ammunition with spare parts.

[2:03] >> Yes.

[2:09] >> What you've just seen is part of a

[2:11] French documentary shot with a hidden

[2:13] camera. The former Soviet Union is up to

[2:16] its ears and weapons, quite a few of

[2:18] them nuclear. And the world is full of

[2:20] eager buyers. Most of them unfortunately

[2:23] people the United States would prefer to

[2:26] keep out of that particular market.

[2:31] >> We had been told by many people that the

[2:32] most incredible merchandise could be

[2:34] bought there. Anything from tanks,

[2:36] helicopters, and fighter jets to sides

[2:38] of beef. One of the brokers told us that

[2:40] on two occasions uranium had been

[2:43] available. This reporter was part of the

[2:46] French documentary team that filmed the

[2:48] black market nuclear negotiation. They

[2:51] made contact with men they believe to be

[2:54] Russian military officers willing and

[2:56] able to sell nuclear material.

[3:01] >> Scandium. Germanmanium. We have some but

[3:04] still can't get it through official

[3:05] channels.

[3:07] >> How much scandium can we get? 50 kilos

[3:10] of scandium

[3:11] >> and Germanmanium.

[3:13] >> We don't know, but it's possible to get

[3:15] it. Scandium and Germanmanium are

[3:18] products that can be used for both

[3:20] civilian and military nuclear programs,

[3:23] but we're getting a little bit ahead of

[3:25] ourselves again. There may actually be

[3:27] some black market sales of nuclear items

[3:30] being made, or at least attempted by

[3:33] former Soviet officials. We'll have more

[3:36] on that later in this broadcast. What is

[3:38] so troublesome, however, is the

[3:40] confluence of conditions in the old

[3:42] Soviet Union that will make such

[3:44] transactions not only inevitable but

[3:47] widespread if concrete measures aren't

[3:50] taken and taken soon. That part of the

[3:54] story from my colleague Dave Marish when

[3:56] we come back.

[4:00] This is an ABC News Night Line

[4:02] investigation

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[6:12] >> Last week's undercover report on

[6:14] mamogram misdiagnosis not only caused

[6:16] talk, it brought immediate results. This

[6:18] week, we'll tell you more. Watch Prime

[6:20] Time Thursday.

[6:34] under Stalin and Crushoff and BRF.

[6:37] Indeed, until just a few years ago,

[6:39] Soviet nuclear scientists were pampered

[6:42] prisoners of the state. They were well

[6:45] treated, but locked away in cities so

[6:47] secret that they didn't even appear on

[6:49] Soviet maps. That official paranoia,

[6:53] which foresaw the day that nuclear

[6:55] scientists from the Soviet Union might

[6:57] try to sell their knowledge to the

[6:59] highest foreign bidder, was not without

[7:01] some justification. Night Line has

[7:04] learned that some of the scientists have

[7:06] already been employed by at least two

[7:09] Arab states. We'll have more on that a

[7:12] little later, but we begin with Night

[7:15] Line correspondent Dave Marish, who'll

[7:17] take you on a guided tour of what used

[7:19] to be the gilded goolog of Soviet

[7:22] nuclear science. To the 80,000 people

[7:25] who live here, this place has been

[7:27] jokingly referred to as nowhere. Armus

[7:31] 16, its official name, refers to a post

[7:33] office box. This secret city is where

[7:36] Stalin scientists first developed an

[7:39] atomic bomb and where Andre Sakurov and

[7:42] his team made the first Soviet hydrogen

[7:44] bomb. The monks of the old monastery

[7:47] here were never as isolated as the

[7:49] acolytes of 20th century science were

[7:51] kept. Even now, after years of glasnos

[7:55] and paristroka and the collapse of the

[7:57] communist state, a French television

[7:59] team got no farther than the front gate.

[8:02] Only their Russian camera crew is

[8:04] allowed to go inside Arzimus 16 to give

[8:08] us our first look inside the secret city

[8:13] and its populace of technicians and

[8:16] scientists who are among the new Russian

[8:18] state's most valuable possessions.

[8:21] ABC News Night Line has conducted the

[8:24] first on camera interview with Arzimus

[8:27] 16's director, Yuri Troutv.

[8:33] The groups of scientists, designers,

[8:35] physicists, testing experts who are

[8:36] engaged in nuclear weapons development

[8:38] and testing have to be retained because

[8:40] they can resolve very major national

[8:42] economic and fundamental scientific

[8:44] tasks

[8:47] just as they managed to resolve the

[8:48] fundamental task of creating nuclear

[8:50] weapons. I know most of these people

[8:54] personally.

[8:56] Beginning of my scientific career took

[8:58] place in Arzamas, the key kitchen of

[9:03] former evil empire.

[9:04] >> Roald Sagdav used to be among the elite

[9:07] of Soviet science, but then he moved

[9:10] west. Now he teaches at the University

[9:12] of Maryland. He says almost all of the

[9:15] scientists at the secret labs like

[9:17] Arzamus 16 would be glad to stay there.

[9:20] But he warns

[9:21] >> one of them or couple of them out of 300

[9:24] of these uh bright physicists. Who knows

[9:28] what he can do? I I would suggest we

[9:31] should stay on the safe side. Let's make

[9:33] sure that even such a singled out

[9:37] Russian strange love would not go to

[9:40] work for Saddam.

[9:41] >> And how do you do that? How do you

[9:43] prevent that from happening?

[9:44] >> It would help them to feel that they can

[9:47] have real choice to do something

[9:50] important in non-military area.

[9:53] >> Foreign satellite TV programs are

[9:56] practically not receivable in the center

[9:58] of this country. The satellite TV system

[10:01] being designed in the institute. This

[10:03] promotional video from the Arzimus 16

[10:06] lab shows what kinds of non-military

[10:09] products the lab is already ready to

[10:11] take to market.

[10:12] >> After turnable disaster, a great

[10:15] necessity in radiation control

[10:17] instruments emerged, which can be used

[10:20] routinely.

[10:21] >> In some cases, the leap from nuclear

[10:23] weapons design to producing items for

[10:25] civilian use is as simple as a walk

[10:27] across the street. But in others, the

[10:30] former wizards of armaments Armageddon

[10:32] proposed to become instead magicians of

[10:35] medical miracles like lasers for eye

[10:38] surgery or special beds for burn victims

[10:41] or much further down the scale of

[10:43] significance, techno innovators of

[10:46] tennis.

[10:46] >> The institute has created documentation

[10:49] and already begun serious production of

[10:51] a portable tool for string tension.

[10:54] Quite a change for some who were once

[10:56] the Soviet state's most pampered people.

[10:59] >> It is humiliating

[11:01] finally after many years being a

[11:05] treasure of the nation and finally now

[11:08] they are looking for uh sheer survival.

[11:13] >> Arzimus 16 lies about 300 miles east of

[11:16] Moscow. Still farther east over the Euro

[11:20] mountains on the edge of the great

[11:21] Siberian plane lies Chelabinsk 40.

[11:25] Another PO box name, another one secret

[11:28] place where weapons of war were the most

[11:31] important product. When Night Line's

[11:34] cameras entered the city, we breached a

[11:36] barbed wire barrier no American TV news

[11:39] team had ever penetrated before. A

[11:41] barrier the Chelyabins lab's scientific

[11:44] director, a veteran of Arzmus 16 as well

[11:47] told us kept his pampered scientists

[11:50] pampered prisoners.

[11:55] >> It was very depressing. You find

[11:57] yourself behind barbed wire in a very

[11:59] limited space. You can't even

[12:01] communicate with your parents. They

[12:03] cannot visit you. You cannot leave for a

[12:06] vacation.

[12:07] >> Dr. Octavv, who before his Nightline

[12:09] interview had never spoken with

[12:10] journalists, says over the years the

[12:13] restrictions on those living in the

[12:14] secret cities were gradually lightened.

[12:17] But he notes the barbed wire is still

[12:19] there. Only now he says the people

[12:21] inside it have come to appreciate the

[12:24] razor wire barrier.

[12:26] >> It protects them from the not so well

[12:28] supplied population from neighboring

[12:30] villages. For all its locks and limits,

[12:33] life inside the nuclear goolog had its

[12:36] advantages. 60% higher pay and what the

[12:39] deputy technical director of the

[12:41] Chelyabinsk Holy of Holies, the Mayach

[12:44] nuclear complex calls social privileges.

[12:47] We have many cinemas, two children's

[12:49] theaters, one playhouse. We have

[12:51] kindergartens, schools with special

[12:53] curricula. In these respects, we still

[12:55] have advantages over other cities. But

[12:58] inside those secret cities, it's no

[13:01] secret. Russia's nuclear aristocracy is

[13:04] losing its edge.

[13:06] >> I remember when one could easily buy

[13:08] food, clothes, and other goods, some of

[13:10] which were in short supply elsewhere.

[13:12] But today, look inside our stores.

[13:14] They're identical to those of Moscow.

[13:17] >> Those elite scientists are losing more

[13:19] than their privileges. They're losing

[13:21] their jobs. Despite official denials of

[13:24] any layoffs, Night Line has learned that

[13:26] shutting down several nuclear reactors

[13:28] inside the Chelyabins complex has

[13:31] already produced cutbacks of up to 15%

[13:34] of the workforce. And those still on the

[13:36] job have seen the value of their

[13:38] paychecks all but disappear.

[13:40] >> You have seen a cutback of 40% in the

[13:42] budgets of the nuclear research

[13:44] institutes in the Soviet Union. This is

[13:47] in a situation where the average Soviet

[13:49] nuclear scientist makes less than a bus

[13:51] driver. Disgruntled Soviet nuclear

[13:54] scientist may well under the proper

[13:58] conditions become nuclear mercenaries.

[14:01] >> There is such a danger and I don't want

[14:03] to underestimate it. I've heard people

[14:05] say and it worries me a lot. A tennis

[14:08] player sells his talent. A performer

[14:10] sells his talents. We're no worse than

[14:13] they. Why can't we sell our talent or

[14:15] knowledge?

[14:16] >> It is the junior scientists, men and

[14:19] women in their 30s and 40s, who are most

[14:21] likely to sell out. Most of them never

[14:24] made the deep ideological commitment to

[14:26] communism that defined their elders.

[14:28] Crime, it is said, is the product of

[14:30] motive and opportunity. For many former

[14:33] Soviet nuclear scientists, the

[14:35] motivation is apparent, and there are

[14:37] opportunities.

[14:39] >> We're closely watching for a brain drain

[14:41] from the Soviet republics. CIA Director

[14:43] Gates says monitoring the movements of

[14:46] Soviet scientists is a major aim of

[14:48] American intelligence.

[14:50] >> Based on Soviet scientific collaboration

[14:52] in the 1980s, Cuba, India, Syria, Egypt,

[14:57] and Algeria are most likely to have the

[15:00] contacts and resident scientists to

[15:02] assist immigrating Soviets.

[15:04] >> To that list, add one more dangerous

[15:06] state, Libya. Although Muar Gaddafi has

[15:10] loudly denied it, Soviet nuclear

[15:12] scientists have long been sharing

[15:14] knowledge with his nuclear elite

[15:16] originally in building a national

[15:18] non-military nuclear center.

[15:22] >> We were sending a lot of people to

[15:24] Libya. The people were happy to go there

[15:26] because they were highly paid. Today,

[15:29] Western intelligence sources tell Night

[15:31] Line, the Libya connection continues

[15:33] secretly with at least seven former

[15:35] Soviet scientists from the old nuclear

[15:37] weapons testing site at Semipolatinsk in

[15:40] Kazakhstan mentoring Libyan colleagues

[15:43] and seven more now working in Algeria

[15:46] where radical Muslim fundamentalists are

[15:48] threatening the stability of the

[15:49] government. Even if the former Soviets

[15:52] try to keep research to the non-military

[15:54] side of the line, Roald Sagdev says that

[15:58] may not quarantine their information

[16:00] from military development. This is how

[16:02] the first nuclear bombs were built. Uh

[16:06] non-military nuclear physicists in the

[16:09] early 40s gathered in Los Alamos here

[16:13] and in Arzamas in Russia and they

[16:18] invented everything. This is how young

[16:22] talented

[16:24] Arab or any third world physicist could

[16:27] reinvent the bomb again. Give a man a

[16:31] fish and you feed him for a day goes the

[16:33] old proverb. But teach a man to fish and

[16:35] he can feed himself forever. The

[16:38] possibility that nuclear scientists from

[16:40] the old Soviet Union may be teaching

[16:42] their secrets to scientists from hostile

[16:44] or unstable states is one of the

[16:47] nightmares of the postcold war era. The

[16:50] secret deals that have brought former

[16:52] Soviet scientists to Libya and Algeria

[16:55] hint that that nightmare could soon be a

[16:57] waking reality, especially if those

[17:00] scientists can obtain a source for

[17:01] military capable nuclear materials. And

[17:05] Ted, that's an if fast on its way to

[17:08] becoming a when.

[17:10] >> Actually, there have been a number of

[17:12] instances where people purporting to

[17:14] sell precisely that kind of material

[17:17] have already been apprehended in Europe.

[17:20] And we'll have that story when we come

[17:22] back.

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[20:03] >> He holds my head right to his crotch.

[20:05] >> Watch Prime Time Thursday.

[20:17] To say that the climate has changed in

[20:19] what was the Soviet Union is to

[20:21] understate the obvious. Those who were

[20:24] at or near the top of the pyramid in

[20:26] terms of prestige, living conditions,

[20:28] and power are displaced and disoriented.

[20:32] Count among their number, scientists,

[20:35] military, and intelligence officers.

[20:38] Conditions are bad. options for

[20:40] self-improvement are few. Everything, in

[20:43] other words, is in place for the

[20:45] realization of one of our worst

[20:47] nightmares. We know right now that there

[20:50] are people who are willing and

[20:53] interested in selling anything that

[20:55] sounds nuclear to anyone that'll buy it

[20:59] in the West. And the people have already

[21:01] been arrested.

[21:02] >> True enough. Indeed. It was here in the

[21:05] lakeside resort town of Komo in northern

[21:08] Italy that undercover operatives set up

[21:10] a meeting last October at this hotel

[21:14] with two men who claimed to have nuclear

[21:16] material for sale. They carried with

[21:19] them official looking Soviet documents,

[21:22] plutonium quality control documents

[21:25] describing weaponsgrade plutonium. 2

[21:28] days after the first set of meetings, a

[21:30] Swiss businessman arrived in Ko carrying

[21:33] a small calibration device containing a

[21:36] tiny sample of plutonium 239,

[21:39] weaponsgrade plutonium. The device

[21:42] itself was probably intended to show

[21:44] that the wouldbe seller could indeed

[21:46] deliver. Italian authorities say the

[21:49] device came from Technob Export, the

[21:52] official Russian government agency that

[21:55] handles the export of nuclear materials.

[21:58] A senior official for that agency seemed

[22:01] to deny the charge, but then qualified

[22:04] the denial.

[22:08] >> This is totally impossible. We do not

[22:10] have any confirmed information about the

[22:12] origin of these materials. The Italian

[22:15] public prosecutor in charge of this

[22:17] particular investigation is Romano

[22:19] Dolce. He is adamant that the plutonium

[22:22] device and the documents came from the

[22:25] Soviet Union.

[22:28] >> Technical experts were consulted who

[22:30] were able to trace the origin of these

[22:32] materials to the Soviet Union. We're

[22:34] talking about a culture of death. The

[22:36] culture of death which is expanding from

[22:38] the Soviet Union to other countries. The

[22:41] men with the device were detained. They

[22:44] claimed that a group organized by ex-s

[22:47] Soviet officials was prepared to sell 65

[22:50] lb of uranium and 20 lb of plutonium.

[22:53] Theoretically, that material would have

[22:55] been sufficient if it was properly

[22:57] enriched to make a nuclear weapon. On

[23:00] November 11th, Swiss police made a

[23:03] seizure in Zurich. 65 lbs of uranium,

[23:07] which was analyzed in a Swiss lab and

[23:09] determined to be useless waste. No

[23:12] plutonium was found. This past January

[23:15] 8th, Italian authorities responded to a

[23:18] similar kind of deal in Milan. About a

[23:21] kilo of scandium was being offered for

[23:24] sale. The price $800,000.

[23:28] Four men were arrested at the hotel

[23:30] capital. The shipment, which was also

[23:32] supposed to have included a quantity of

[23:34] plutonium, had been organized by someone

[23:37] in Budapest, someone who claimed to be a

[23:40] Syrian national, calling himself

[23:42] Muhammad. Undercover agents tried to

[23:45] keep the connection and the deal alive

[23:47] even after the arrests in Milan. Night

[23:51] Line was permitted to record this

[23:52] conversation between one of the Italian

[23:54] agents and someone claiming to be

[23:57] Muhammad's assistant.

[24:00] Muhammad.

[24:01] >> Yeah.

[24:01] >> Is ready to make the business.

[24:03] >> Yeah, he's ready.

[24:05] >> Tell him what is his procedure, his

[24:07] idea.

[24:09] >> He said he has told him how much he need

[24:13] to tell him. He has

[24:14] >> plutonium 239.

[24:17] >> 239.

[24:18] >> Is correct?

[24:20] >> Yeah. It's difficult to escape the

[24:23] impression that every conman and scam

[24:25] artist in the world is somehow involved

[24:28] in trying to clean up by pretending to

[24:30] sell Soviet nuclear material. And yet

[24:33] the Italian authorities take these

[24:35] incidents very seriously. Again, Romano

[24:39] Dolce.

[24:42] >> Within this vast investigation, the same

[24:44] people, names, characters reappear. So

[24:47] obviously there is a link, a connection

[24:50] which allows us to say there is a black

[24:52] market of these materials and the same

[24:54] people are orchestrating it.

[24:57] >> And then there was that French

[24:59] documentary team which secretly

[25:01] videotaped the material we showed you at

[25:03] the beginning of this broadcast. In a

[25:05] subsequent set of meetings, they taped a

[25:08] buyer of uranium arranging for delivery.

[25:15] It should appear as anything as any old

[25:18] nonferris metal like industrial waste.

[25:22] >> The place of delivery will be at

[25:23] Kinenrad on the Baltic Sea. If anything

[25:27] goes wrong during the transport, I don't

[25:29] want to appear as the owner of the

[25:31] merchandise.

[25:32] >> If the stuff is discovered at customs,

[25:34] it'll be terrifying. But we can manage

[25:36] the problem. We can buy off the customs

[25:39] people. All the customs agents of the

[25:41] country, whatever their rank, can be

[25:43] bought. The French reporter Elve

[25:46] Brousini is absolutely convinced that

[25:48] what he and his crew taped is genuine

[25:51] and that some of the people he dealt

[25:53] with were from Soviet military

[25:56] intelligence.

[26:01] Concerning the three officers who tried

[26:02] to sell us material, we are 150% sure

[26:05] that these officers are from military

[26:08] intelligence and are right now selling

[26:10] military hardware and rare minerals

[26:12] which enter into the manufacturing of

[26:14] nuclear reactors. Those people are part

[26:16] of the military. We showed the tape to

[26:18] the man charged by Yeltson with

[26:19] liquidating the nuclear arsenal who did

[26:22] not think it was a scam. He took it very

[26:24] seriously.

[26:26] It is something that must be taken

[26:27] seriously if only because of the market

[26:30] forces to which we referred at the

[26:32] beginning of this program. There's

[26:34] product, there are people who want to

[26:36] buy and people who want to sell. And to

[26:39] make matters worse, conditions in the

[26:41] new Commonwealth of Independent States

[26:43] are chaotic to begin with. So that

[26:46] exercising control is more difficult

[26:49] than it has ever been before. The bottom

[26:52] line is this. Among the few products

[26:55] available in the former Soviet Union

[26:57] these days that anyone with hard

[26:59] currency wants are weapons and nuclear

[27:03] material.

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