Nightline (ABC) - 1992-03-04
Channel: malgent
Transcript
Language: English (original, YouTube automatic captions)
[0:01] It is the West's worst nightmare.
[0:06] >> If anything goes wrong during the
[0:08] transport, I don't want to appear as the
[0:10] owner of the merchandise.
[0:13] >> If the stuff is discovered at customs,
[0:15] we can manage the problem. We can buy
[0:17] off the customs people.
[0:18] >> What you're looking at is a secret
[0:20] transaction. Nuclear material. Origin
[0:23] the former Soviet Union being pedled to
[0:26] a foreign buyer. Tonight, a Nightline
[0:29] investigation. Nuclear secrets for sale.
[0:33] The new black market.
[0:48] This is an ABC News Night Line
[0:50] investigation
[0:52] reporting from Washington. Ted Cppel. We
[0:55] are great believers, we Americans, in
[0:58] the market with a capital M. We see it
[1:01] almost as a force of nature with its own
[1:03] dynamic. Just permit the market to do
[1:06] its thing, we murmur to the Commonwealth
[1:09] of Independent States that once made up
[1:11] the Soviet Union, and everything will be
[1:14] all right. We point to successful barter
[1:16] arrangements that introduced a
[1:18] generation of Soviets to Pepsi Cola,
[1:20] while Americans developed a taste for
[1:22] Stolich Naya vodka. not in and of itself
[1:25] the foundation of a successful new
[1:27] economic system, though. The Soviets
[1:30] have always wanted to buy Western
[1:32] technology and consumer goods. But the
[1:35] West has never had much faith in the
[1:37] ruble. The newly independent states
[1:39] would love to earn hard currency,
[1:42] dollars, marks, yen. But what do they
[1:45] have that anyone with that kind of money
[1:48] wants?
[1:49] >> For them, Marines, I can get Mr. It's
[1:52] clear. It's clear.
[1:54] Mhm.
[1:55] >> Understand me?
[1:55] >> Mhm.
[1:57] >> Aircraft, helicopters,
[2:00] all ammunition with spare parts.
[2:03] >> Yes.
[2:09] >> What you've just seen is part of a
[2:11] French documentary shot with a hidden
[2:13] camera. The former Soviet Union is up to
[2:16] its ears and weapons, quite a few of
[2:18] them nuclear. And the world is full of
[2:20] eager buyers. Most of them unfortunately
[2:23] people the United States would prefer to
[2:26] keep out of that particular market.
[2:31] >> We had been told by many people that the
[2:32] most incredible merchandise could be
[2:34] bought there. Anything from tanks,
[2:36] helicopters, and fighter jets to sides
[2:38] of beef. One of the brokers told us that
[2:40] on two occasions uranium had been
[2:43] available. This reporter was part of the
[2:46] French documentary team that filmed the
[2:48] black market nuclear negotiation. They
[2:51] made contact with men they believe to be
[2:54] Russian military officers willing and
[2:56] able to sell nuclear material.
[3:01] >> Scandium. Germanmanium. We have some but
[3:04] still can't get it through official
[3:05] channels.
[3:07] >> How much scandium can we get? 50 kilos
[3:10] of scandium
[3:11] >> and Germanmanium.
[3:13] >> We don't know, but it's possible to get
[3:15] it. Scandium and Germanmanium are
[3:18] products that can be used for both
[3:20] civilian and military nuclear programs,
[3:23] but we're getting a little bit ahead of
[3:25] ourselves again. There may actually be
[3:27] some black market sales of nuclear items
[3:30] being made, or at least attempted by
[3:33] former Soviet officials. We'll have more
[3:36] on that later in this broadcast. What is
[3:38] so troublesome, however, is the
[3:40] confluence of conditions in the old
[3:42] Soviet Union that will make such
[3:44] transactions not only inevitable but
[3:47] widespread if concrete measures aren't
[3:50] taken and taken soon. That part of the
[3:54] story from my colleague Dave Marish when
[3:56] we come back.
[4:00] This is an ABC News Night Line
[4:02] investigation
[4:03] brought to you by Certa.
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[5:51] >> right? It's much better than Oh, what's
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[6:03] >> What were we talking about?
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[6:12] >> Last week's undercover report on
[6:14] mamogram misdiagnosis not only caused
[6:16] talk, it brought immediate results. This
[6:18] week, we'll tell you more. Watch Prime
[6:20] Time Thursday.
[6:34] under Stalin and Crushoff and BRF.
[6:37] Indeed, until just a few years ago,
[6:39] Soviet nuclear scientists were pampered
[6:42] prisoners of the state. They were well
[6:45] treated, but locked away in cities so
[6:47] secret that they didn't even appear on
[6:49] Soviet maps. That official paranoia,
[6:53] which foresaw the day that nuclear
[6:55] scientists from the Soviet Union might
[6:57] try to sell their knowledge to the
[6:59] highest foreign bidder, was not without
[7:01] some justification. Night Line has
[7:04] learned that some of the scientists have
[7:06] already been employed by at least two
[7:09] Arab states. We'll have more on that a
[7:12] little later, but we begin with Night
[7:15] Line correspondent Dave Marish, who'll
[7:17] take you on a guided tour of what used
[7:19] to be the gilded goolog of Soviet
[7:22] nuclear science. To the 80,000 people
[7:25] who live here, this place has been
[7:27] jokingly referred to as nowhere. Armus
[7:31] 16, its official name, refers to a post
[7:33] office box. This secret city is where
[7:36] Stalin scientists first developed an
[7:39] atomic bomb and where Andre Sakurov and
[7:42] his team made the first Soviet hydrogen
[7:44] bomb. The monks of the old monastery
[7:47] here were never as isolated as the
[7:49] acolytes of 20th century science were
[7:51] kept. Even now, after years of glasnos
[7:55] and paristroka and the collapse of the
[7:57] communist state, a French television
[7:59] team got no farther than the front gate.
[8:02] Only their Russian camera crew is
[8:04] allowed to go inside Arzimus 16 to give
[8:08] us our first look inside the secret city
[8:13] and its populace of technicians and
[8:16] scientists who are among the new Russian
[8:18] state's most valuable possessions.
[8:21] ABC News Night Line has conducted the
[8:24] first on camera interview with Arzimus
[8:27] 16's director, Yuri Troutv.
[8:33] The groups of scientists, designers,
[8:35] physicists, testing experts who are
[8:36] engaged in nuclear weapons development
[8:38] and testing have to be retained because
[8:40] they can resolve very major national
[8:42] economic and fundamental scientific
[8:44] tasks
[8:47] just as they managed to resolve the
[8:48] fundamental task of creating nuclear
[8:50] weapons. I know most of these people
[8:54] personally.
[8:56] Beginning of my scientific career took
[8:58] place in Arzamas, the key kitchen of
[9:03] former evil empire.
[9:04] >> Roald Sagdav used to be among the elite
[9:07] of Soviet science, but then he moved
[9:10] west. Now he teaches at the University
[9:12] of Maryland. He says almost all of the
[9:15] scientists at the secret labs like
[9:17] Arzamus 16 would be glad to stay there.
[9:20] But he warns
[9:21] >> one of them or couple of them out of 300
[9:24] of these uh bright physicists. Who knows
[9:28] what he can do? I I would suggest we
[9:31] should stay on the safe side. Let's make
[9:33] sure that even such a singled out
[9:37] Russian strange love would not go to
[9:40] work for Saddam.
[9:41] >> And how do you do that? How do you
[9:43] prevent that from happening?
[9:44] >> It would help them to feel that they can
[9:47] have real choice to do something
[9:50] important in non-military area.
[9:53] >> Foreign satellite TV programs are
[9:56] practically not receivable in the center
[9:58] of this country. The satellite TV system
[10:01] being designed in the institute. This
[10:03] promotional video from the Arzimus 16
[10:06] lab shows what kinds of non-military
[10:09] products the lab is already ready to
[10:11] take to market.
[10:12] >> After turnable disaster, a great
[10:15] necessity in radiation control
[10:17] instruments emerged, which can be used
[10:20] routinely.
[10:21] >> In some cases, the leap from nuclear
[10:23] weapons design to producing items for
[10:25] civilian use is as simple as a walk
[10:27] across the street. But in others, the
[10:30] former wizards of armaments Armageddon
[10:32] proposed to become instead magicians of
[10:35] medical miracles like lasers for eye
[10:38] surgery or special beds for burn victims
[10:41] or much further down the scale of
[10:43] significance, techno innovators of
[10:46] tennis.
[10:46] >> The institute has created documentation
[10:49] and already begun serious production of
[10:51] a portable tool for string tension.
[10:54] Quite a change for some who were once
[10:56] the Soviet state's most pampered people.
[10:59] >> It is humiliating
[11:01] finally after many years being a
[11:05] treasure of the nation and finally now
[11:08] they are looking for uh sheer survival.
[11:13] >> Arzimus 16 lies about 300 miles east of
[11:16] Moscow. Still farther east over the Euro
[11:20] mountains on the edge of the great
[11:21] Siberian plane lies Chelabinsk 40.
[11:25] Another PO box name, another one secret
[11:28] place where weapons of war were the most
[11:31] important product. When Night Line's
[11:34] cameras entered the city, we breached a
[11:36] barbed wire barrier no American TV news
[11:39] team had ever penetrated before. A
[11:41] barrier the Chelyabins lab's scientific
[11:44] director, a veteran of Arzmus 16 as well
[11:47] told us kept his pampered scientists
[11:50] pampered prisoners.
[11:55] >> It was very depressing. You find
[11:57] yourself behind barbed wire in a very
[11:59] limited space. You can't even
[12:01] communicate with your parents. They
[12:03] cannot visit you. You cannot leave for a
[12:06] vacation.
[12:07] >> Dr. Octavv, who before his Nightline
[12:09] interview had never spoken with
[12:10] journalists, says over the years the
[12:13] restrictions on those living in the
[12:14] secret cities were gradually lightened.
[12:17] But he notes the barbed wire is still
[12:19] there. Only now he says the people
[12:21] inside it have come to appreciate the
[12:24] razor wire barrier.
[12:26] >> It protects them from the not so well
[12:28] supplied population from neighboring
[12:30] villages. For all its locks and limits,
[12:33] life inside the nuclear goolog had its
[12:36] advantages. 60% higher pay and what the
[12:39] deputy technical director of the
[12:41] Chelyabinsk Holy of Holies, the Mayach
[12:44] nuclear complex calls social privileges.
[12:47] We have many cinemas, two children's
[12:49] theaters, one playhouse. We have
[12:51] kindergartens, schools with special
[12:53] curricula. In these respects, we still
[12:55] have advantages over other cities. But
[12:58] inside those secret cities, it's no
[13:01] secret. Russia's nuclear aristocracy is
[13:04] losing its edge.
[13:06] >> I remember when one could easily buy
[13:08] food, clothes, and other goods, some of
[13:10] which were in short supply elsewhere.
[13:12] But today, look inside our stores.
[13:14] They're identical to those of Moscow.
[13:17] >> Those elite scientists are losing more
[13:19] than their privileges. They're losing
[13:21] their jobs. Despite official denials of
[13:24] any layoffs, Night Line has learned that
[13:26] shutting down several nuclear reactors
[13:28] inside the Chelyabins complex has
[13:31] already produced cutbacks of up to 15%
[13:34] of the workforce. And those still on the
[13:36] job have seen the value of their
[13:38] paychecks all but disappear.
[13:40] >> You have seen a cutback of 40% in the
[13:42] budgets of the nuclear research
[13:44] institutes in the Soviet Union. This is
[13:47] in a situation where the average Soviet
[13:49] nuclear scientist makes less than a bus
[13:51] driver. Disgruntled Soviet nuclear
[13:54] scientist may well under the proper
[13:58] conditions become nuclear mercenaries.
[14:01] >> There is such a danger and I don't want
[14:03] to underestimate it. I've heard people
[14:05] say and it worries me a lot. A tennis
[14:08] player sells his talent. A performer
[14:10] sells his talents. We're no worse than
[14:13] they. Why can't we sell our talent or
[14:15] knowledge?
[14:16] >> It is the junior scientists, men and
[14:19] women in their 30s and 40s, who are most
[14:21] likely to sell out. Most of them never
[14:24] made the deep ideological commitment to
[14:26] communism that defined their elders.
[14:28] Crime, it is said, is the product of
[14:30] motive and opportunity. For many former
[14:33] Soviet nuclear scientists, the
[14:35] motivation is apparent, and there are
[14:37] opportunities.
[14:39] >> We're closely watching for a brain drain
[14:41] from the Soviet republics. CIA Director
[14:43] Gates says monitoring the movements of
[14:46] Soviet scientists is a major aim of
[14:48] American intelligence.
[14:50] >> Based on Soviet scientific collaboration
[14:52] in the 1980s, Cuba, India, Syria, Egypt,
[14:57] and Algeria are most likely to have the
[15:00] contacts and resident scientists to
[15:02] assist immigrating Soviets.
[15:04] >> To that list, add one more dangerous
[15:06] state, Libya. Although Muar Gaddafi has
[15:10] loudly denied it, Soviet nuclear
[15:12] scientists have long been sharing
[15:14] knowledge with his nuclear elite
[15:16] originally in building a national
[15:18] non-military nuclear center.
[15:22] >> We were sending a lot of people to
[15:24] Libya. The people were happy to go there
[15:26] because they were highly paid. Today,
[15:29] Western intelligence sources tell Night
[15:31] Line, the Libya connection continues
[15:33] secretly with at least seven former
[15:35] Soviet scientists from the old nuclear
[15:37] weapons testing site at Semipolatinsk in
[15:40] Kazakhstan mentoring Libyan colleagues
[15:43] and seven more now working in Algeria
[15:46] where radical Muslim fundamentalists are
[15:48] threatening the stability of the
[15:49] government. Even if the former Soviets
[15:52] try to keep research to the non-military
[15:54] side of the line, Roald Sagdev says that
[15:58] may not quarantine their information
[16:00] from military development. This is how
[16:02] the first nuclear bombs were built. Uh
[16:06] non-military nuclear physicists in the
[16:09] early 40s gathered in Los Alamos here
[16:13] and in Arzamas in Russia and they
[16:18] invented everything. This is how young
[16:22] talented
[16:24] Arab or any third world physicist could
[16:27] reinvent the bomb again. Give a man a
[16:31] fish and you feed him for a day goes the
[16:33] old proverb. But teach a man to fish and
[16:35] he can feed himself forever. The
[16:38] possibility that nuclear scientists from
[16:40] the old Soviet Union may be teaching
[16:42] their secrets to scientists from hostile
[16:44] or unstable states is one of the
[16:47] nightmares of the postcold war era. The
[16:50] secret deals that have brought former
[16:52] Soviet scientists to Libya and Algeria
[16:55] hint that that nightmare could soon be a
[16:57] waking reality, especially if those
[17:00] scientists can obtain a source for
[17:01] military capable nuclear materials. And
[17:05] Ted, that's an if fast on its way to
[17:08] becoming a when.
[17:10] >> Actually, there have been a number of
[17:12] instances where people purporting to
[17:14] sell precisely that kind of material
[17:17] have already been apprehended in Europe.
[17:20] And we'll have that story when we come
[17:22] back.
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[17:55] >> If you buy dry dog food, there's
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[18:28] Okay, I know you're probably not looking
[18:30] for fresh, tender asparagus at just 79
[18:33] cents a pound this very moment. Or maybe
[18:35] not even fast, tasty noodleon entre for
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[18:56] >> Mate presents the savings bond.
[18:58] Spectacular.
[18:58] >> Stampede. More like it.
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[19:02] savings bond.
[19:03] >> All these people.
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[19:26] >> Who's making a difference in the way
[19:28] your tax dollars are being spent? People
[19:30] just like you. Hello, I'm Jeff Geianola.
[19:32] When channel 2 asked you to help us get
[19:35] to the bottom line of government
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[19:40] your suggestions have become stories on
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[19:49] the spirit of the Northwest in all of
[19:51] you. Taking the initiative to make sure
[19:53] government keeps an eye on the bottom
[19:54] line.
[19:58] It was her dream job, the record
[19:59] business. But she never dreamed she had
[20:01] to keep her boss's dirty secret.
[20:03] >> He holds my head right to his crotch.
[20:05] >> Watch Prime Time Thursday.
[20:17] To say that the climate has changed in
[20:19] what was the Soviet Union is to
[20:21] understate the obvious. Those who were
[20:24] at or near the top of the pyramid in
[20:26] terms of prestige, living conditions,
[20:28] and power are displaced and disoriented.
[20:32] Count among their number, scientists,
[20:35] military, and intelligence officers.
[20:38] Conditions are bad. options for
[20:40] self-improvement are few. Everything, in
[20:43] other words, is in place for the
[20:45] realization of one of our worst
[20:47] nightmares. We know right now that there
[20:50] are people who are willing and
[20:53] interested in selling anything that
[20:55] sounds nuclear to anyone that'll buy it
[20:59] in the West. And the people have already
[21:01] been arrested.
[21:02] >> True enough. Indeed. It was here in the
[21:05] lakeside resort town of Komo in northern
[21:08] Italy that undercover operatives set up
[21:10] a meeting last October at this hotel
[21:14] with two men who claimed to have nuclear
[21:16] material for sale. They carried with
[21:19] them official looking Soviet documents,
[21:22] plutonium quality control documents
[21:25] describing weaponsgrade plutonium. 2
[21:28] days after the first set of meetings, a
[21:30] Swiss businessman arrived in Ko carrying
[21:33] a small calibration device containing a
[21:36] tiny sample of plutonium 239,
[21:39] weaponsgrade plutonium. The device
[21:42] itself was probably intended to show
[21:44] that the wouldbe seller could indeed
[21:46] deliver. Italian authorities say the
[21:49] device came from Technob Export, the
[21:52] official Russian government agency that
[21:55] handles the export of nuclear materials.
[21:58] A senior official for that agency seemed
[22:01] to deny the charge, but then qualified
[22:04] the denial.
[22:08] >> This is totally impossible. We do not
[22:10] have any confirmed information about the
[22:12] origin of these materials. The Italian
[22:15] public prosecutor in charge of this
[22:17] particular investigation is Romano
[22:19] Dolce. He is adamant that the plutonium
[22:22] device and the documents came from the
[22:25] Soviet Union.
[22:28] >> Technical experts were consulted who
[22:30] were able to trace the origin of these
[22:32] materials to the Soviet Union. We're
[22:34] talking about a culture of death. The
[22:36] culture of death which is expanding from
[22:38] the Soviet Union to other countries. The
[22:41] men with the device were detained. They
[22:44] claimed that a group organized by ex-s
[22:47] Soviet officials was prepared to sell 65
[22:50] lb of uranium and 20 lb of plutonium.
[22:53] Theoretically, that material would have
[22:55] been sufficient if it was properly
[22:57] enriched to make a nuclear weapon. On
[23:00] November 11th, Swiss police made a
[23:03] seizure in Zurich. 65 lbs of uranium,
[23:07] which was analyzed in a Swiss lab and
[23:09] determined to be useless waste. No
[23:12] plutonium was found. This past January
[23:15] 8th, Italian authorities responded to a
[23:18] similar kind of deal in Milan. About a
[23:21] kilo of scandium was being offered for
[23:24] sale. The price $800,000.
[23:28] Four men were arrested at the hotel
[23:30] capital. The shipment, which was also
[23:32] supposed to have included a quantity of
[23:34] plutonium, had been organized by someone
[23:37] in Budapest, someone who claimed to be a
[23:40] Syrian national, calling himself
[23:42] Muhammad. Undercover agents tried to
[23:45] keep the connection and the deal alive
[23:47] even after the arrests in Milan. Night
[23:51] Line was permitted to record this
[23:52] conversation between one of the Italian
[23:54] agents and someone claiming to be
[23:57] Muhammad's assistant.
[24:00] Muhammad.
[24:01] >> Yeah.
[24:01] >> Is ready to make the business.
[24:03] >> Yeah, he's ready.
[24:05] >> Tell him what is his procedure, his
[24:07] idea.
[24:09] >> He said he has told him how much he need
[24:13] to tell him. He has
[24:14] >> plutonium 239.
[24:17] >> 239.
[24:18] >> Is correct?
[24:20] >> Yeah. It's difficult to escape the
[24:23] impression that every conman and scam
[24:25] artist in the world is somehow involved
[24:28] in trying to clean up by pretending to
[24:30] sell Soviet nuclear material. And yet
[24:33] the Italian authorities take these
[24:35] incidents very seriously. Again, Romano
[24:39] Dolce.
[24:42] >> Within this vast investigation, the same
[24:44] people, names, characters reappear. So
[24:47] obviously there is a link, a connection
[24:50] which allows us to say there is a black
[24:52] market of these materials and the same
[24:54] people are orchestrating it.
[24:57] >> And then there was that French
[24:59] documentary team which secretly
[25:01] videotaped the material we showed you at
[25:03] the beginning of this broadcast. In a
[25:05] subsequent set of meetings, they taped a
[25:08] buyer of uranium arranging for delivery.
[25:15] It should appear as anything as any old
[25:18] nonferris metal like industrial waste.
[25:22] >> The place of delivery will be at
[25:23] Kinenrad on the Baltic Sea. If anything
[25:27] goes wrong during the transport, I don't
[25:29] want to appear as the owner of the
[25:31] merchandise.
[25:32] >> If the stuff is discovered at customs,
[25:34] it'll be terrifying. But we can manage
[25:36] the problem. We can buy off the customs
[25:39] people. All the customs agents of the
[25:41] country, whatever their rank, can be
[25:43] bought. The French reporter Elve
[25:46] Brousini is absolutely convinced that
[25:48] what he and his crew taped is genuine
[25:51] and that some of the people he dealt
[25:53] with were from Soviet military
[25:56] intelligence.
[26:01] Concerning the three officers who tried
[26:02] to sell us material, we are 150% sure
[26:05] that these officers are from military
[26:08] intelligence and are right now selling
[26:10] military hardware and rare minerals
[26:12] which enter into the manufacturing of
[26:14] nuclear reactors. Those people are part
[26:16] of the military. We showed the tape to
[26:18] the man charged by Yeltson with
[26:19] liquidating the nuclear arsenal who did
[26:22] not think it was a scam. He took it very
[26:24] seriously.
[26:26] It is something that must be taken
[26:27] seriously if only because of the market
[26:30] forces to which we referred at the
[26:32] beginning of this program. There's
[26:34] product, there are people who want to
[26:36] buy and people who want to sell. And to
[26:39] make matters worse, conditions in the
[26:41] new Commonwealth of Independent States
[26:43] are chaotic to begin with. So that
[26:46] exercising control is more difficult
[26:49] than it has ever been before. The bottom
[26:52] line is this. Among the few products
[26:55] available in the former Soviet Union
[26:57] these days that anyone with hard
[26:59] currency wants are weapons and nuclear
[27:03] material.
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