Nightline (ABC) - 1996-02-26

Channel: malgent

Transcript

Language: English (original, YouTube automatic captions)

[0:00] Time now for results of tonight's

[0:02] Teleoll. We asked, should students in

[0:04] public schools be required to wear

[0:05] uniforms? Let's check those final

[0:07] numbers. You can see a lot of them

[0:09] tonight. Nearly 15,000 calls.

[0:12] Overwhelming majority say yes, they

[0:14] should. Thanks to all those who took the

[0:16] time to call us. Oh, finally tonight, a

[0:18] factory that's all that it's quacked up

[0:20] to be. This is the largest decoy duck

[0:23] factory in the world. The Virginia

[0:25] factory cranks out every variety of

[0:27] malard, pin, tail, and wood duck

[0:29] imaginable. The decoys are carved using

[0:31] assembly line techniques that allows

[0:33] hundreds of ducks to be carved at the

[0:35] same time. Workers at the plant say the

[0:38] only thing that makes them go truly

[0:40] daffy is a dull carving blade.

[0:43] >> Call me crazy. I don't think those are

[0:44] real ducks.

[0:45] >> No, they're not.

[0:46] >> Nothing gets past you, Steve.

[0:48] >> Get up pretty early in the morning.

[0:49] >> That's right. Let's check our forecast

[0:51] for early in the morning. Partly cloudy

[0:53] and 26. And the clouds will thicken up

[0:55] during the day. We'll have some snow

[0:56] flurries late. Better chance for snow

[0:57] Wednesday.

[0:58] >> Okay. Great night line coming up

[1:00] everybody. See you tomorrow.

[1:03] >> Thanks for watching Channel 2 News, the

[1:05] Northwest news leader. Tomorrow morning,

[1:08] join Dan Christopher and Janice Wyel for

[1:11] Channel 2 News this morning,

[1:18] February 26th, 1996.

[1:27] It's only happened once before in two

[1:30] centuries. An Episcopal bishop on tribe.

[1:35] The charge heresy.

[1:37] >> A bishop takes a solemn vow to conform

[1:40] to the doctrine, discipline, and worship

[1:42] of this church. He did not do so.

[1:43] >> His alleged crime, ordaining an openly

[1:47] gay man,

[1:48] >> the body of Christ, the bread of heaven.

[1:50] I didn't choose to ordain Barry because

[1:53] he was gay. I chose to ordain Barry

[1:56] because he had was well qualified.

[1:59] Tonight, God, gays, and heretics.

[2:12] This is ABC News Night Line reporting

[2:15] from Washington, Ted Cppel. Our guest

[2:19] tonight must have a great deal on his

[2:21] mind. Tomorrow he goes on trial for

[2:24] heresy. Heresy trials are not, of

[2:27] course, what they used to be. Not in

[2:29] terms of the methodology for gathering

[2:31] evidence, and certainly not in so far as

[2:34] the consequences are concerned should

[2:36] the accused be found guilty. Even so,

[2:38] there has only been one other such trial

[2:41] in the more than 200year-old history of

[2:43] the American Episcopal Church, and a

[2:46] panel of nine Episcopal bishops has been

[2:48] assembled in Wilmington, Delaware, to

[2:51] sit in judgment on their retired

[2:52] colleague, Bishop Walter Writer. What

[2:55] Bishop Writer did is, it turns out, not

[2:58] even unprecedented. Several other

[3:00] bishops have apparently done it. Bishop

[3:02] Writer ordained a gay man as a church

[3:05] deacon. Even that in and of itself is

[3:08] not contrary to church doctrine.

[3:10] Homosexuality does not disqualify a man

[3:12] or a woman from becoming priests in the

[3:15] Episcopal Church as long as they remain

[3:18] celibate. The man ordained by Bishop

[3:20] Writer was openly living with another

[3:22] man and Bishop Writer knew it. A

[3:25] significant faction within the church

[3:27] decided that they had to draw a line and

[3:29] they chose Bishop Writer to provide the

[3:32] object lesson. Chris Bury has our

[3:34] report.

[3:36] In Wilmington, Delaware, at the

[3:38] Cathedral Church of St. John, the stage

[3:41] is set for tomorrow's trial of an

[3:43] Episcopal bishop who stands accused of

[3:46] heresy. That formal charge defying a

[3:49] church doctrine is the most serious

[3:51] breach of the Christian faith.

[3:54] >> The blood of Christ, the cup of

[3:55] salvation.

[3:56] >> The accused heretic is Bishop Walter

[3:59] Writer, who has had a distinguished

[4:01] career in the Episcopal ministry. Now 72

[4:04] years old, Ryder has retired to New

[4:06] Hampshire where he still conducts

[4:08] occasional services. Writer's accusers

[4:10] say his heresy in 1990 was to ordain an

[4:14] openly gay man as a deacon in the

[4:16] Episcopal Church.

[4:18] >> I've been a a priest and a bishop since

[4:20] 1951. That's 40 45 years. To have my

[4:25] retirement be invaded by this is absurd.

[4:29] To have this kind of case develop as a

[4:32] way of trying to settle where the church

[4:33] is on sexuality is absurd.

[4:36] >> It does sound very medieval and as

[4:38] though if you find someone guilty of

[4:40] heresy, you're going to dip them in oil

[4:42] or something. Um, it is and it's only

[4:45] happened once before in the whole 200

[4:47] plus years of the Episcopal Church in

[4:50] this country.

[4:51] >> James Solheim is a spokesman for the

[4:53] national headquarters of the Episcopal

[4:55] Church. It comes about because we are

[4:58] having so much trouble like other

[4:59] mainline churches settling the issue of

[5:02] homosexuals in the priesthood or the

[5:04] ministry. And the frustration built to

[5:06] such a point that a conservative group

[5:09] of 10 bishops decided to file legal

[5:11] charges against a bishop who ordained a

[5:14] non-elibate man.

[5:16] >> It's a search for order. Bishop James

[5:19] Stanton of Dallas, who is leading the

[5:21] accusers, believes the church has

[5:23] strayed too far from its traditional

[5:25] teaching against homosexuals in the

[5:27] clergy.

[5:28] >> Every time this issue has come up in the

[5:29] Episcopal Church, uh the church has

[5:32] voted in one way or another to affirm

[5:34] the traditional Christian teaching. How

[5:37] is that possible on one hand and stand

[5:40] by and watch bishops violate what seems

[5:42] to be the clear understanding of uh the

[5:45] church on the other? In recent years,

[5:48] the Episcopal Church, like the American

[5:50] military, has struggled with its own

[5:52] cumbersome policy toward homosexuals.

[5:55] Yes, gay men and women may be ordained

[5:57] as clergy, but no, they may not engage

[6:00] in any homosexual behavior. That

[6:03] compromise was born in a carefully

[6:05] worded resolution adopted by a majority

[6:07] of the bishops in 1979. Therefore, we

[6:10] believe it is not appropriate for this

[6:12] church to ordain a practicing homosexual

[6:16] or any person who is engaged in hetero

[6:18] heterosexual relations outside of

[6:19] marriage. Quite frankly, was that aimed

[6:22] at heterosexuals who might be having

[6:25] extrammarital sex or was it aimed at

[6:28] practicing homosexuals?

[6:30] >> In practical terms, it was aimed at the

[6:32] at the ordination of homosexuals. The

[6:34] heresy trial of Bishop Ryder hinges

[6:37] above all on whether that resolution,

[6:40] which did face significant opposition,

[6:42] carries the full weight of church

[6:44] doctrine

[6:45] >> by ordaining an actively practicing

[6:48] homosexual. Aren't you violating this

[6:50] principle?

[6:52] >> That was a statement of

[6:55] a resolution, not a statement of

[6:57] principle. There was no intent to

[6:59] establish longlasting doctrine with that

[7:02] resolution. And I didn't think I was

[7:04] violating anything when I did that.

[7:07] >> We're watching a a 2,000-year tradition

[7:10] being challenged by relatively a small

[7:12] group of people who believe they are in

[7:14] possession of new truth and they want to

[7:18] press that agenda on a on the rest of

[7:20] the church. And

[7:20] >> I believe that the history of the church

[7:22] is pretty clear on that subject.

[7:24] Theologian Robert Pritchard, who has

[7:26] written a history of the Episcopal

[7:27] Church, believes Christian teaching

[7:29] plainly sets boundaries on acceptable

[7:32] sexual behavior.

[7:33] >> That is to say, there are two styles of

[7:35] life for Christian people. Faithful,

[7:38] exclusive, monogous marriage

[7:41] or celibacy.

[7:43] the glory

[7:48] days.

[7:49] >> No other question has so torn the 2 and

[7:51] a2 million member Episcopal Church since

[7:54] its decision 20 years ago to ordain

[7:56] women. In this Dallas parish, the fault

[7:59] line appears to be the church

[8:01] requirement that all priests set with

[8:03] the Episcopal Book of Common Prayer

[8:05] calls a wholesome example.

[8:07] >> Uh have no problem whatsoever with an

[8:09] individual living their life the way

[8:11] they choose to live their life. either

[8:13] openly or uh privately. Uh it's just

[8:16] that in a leadership role in the church

[8:19] um I don't accept uh people uh living uh

[8:22] lifestyles which are um not good

[8:26] examples for for my children.

[8:29] >> There are Episcopalians who really agree

[8:32] that the ordination of gays is against

[8:35] church doctrine, but we're taught as

[8:38] Christians not to judge other people.

[8:41] And I think that that is really tearing

[8:43] at people.

[8:44] >> We need to take a stance that's that

[8:47] forces us to to draw the lines in the

[8:51] church between what is politically

[8:53] correct socially and what the church

[8:55] should be taking as a Christian tenant

[8:57] of the faith.

[8:58] >> The accusers in the heresy trial believe

[9:01] they are drawing that line defending the

[9:04] faith. When a bishop was ordained, a

[9:06] bishop is ordained to guard the faith,

[9:08] unity and discipline of the church not

[9:10] to have done something uh in this matter

[9:13] would have been we think irresponsible

[9:16] uh in reference to our our uh call our

[9:20] vocation.

[9:21] >> Is this a pivotal moment for the

[9:23] Episcopal Church?

[9:24] >> I hope not. It may be.

[9:28] It may be. When we come back, the case

[9:31] for the defense, part two of Chris Bur's

[9:34] report in a moment.

[9:40] This is ABC News Night Line, brought to

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[12:12] Where's it from?

[12:13] >> This note was with it and worester mass.

[12:17] >> One person's heretic is another's hero.

[12:20] Bishop Writer and his wife Nancy have

[12:23] received hundreds of letters condemning

[12:25] the charge of heresy against him.

[12:27] >> The cannons of the church give those

[12:29] fellas the right to bring charges. They

[12:31] give me the right to defend myself.

[12:34] And if they thought they had a retired

[12:36] old fell up in New Hampshire who wasn't

[12:38] going to fight, they I am retired and

[12:40] I'm 72, but I'm going to fight.

[12:42] >> That's a girl.

[12:44] >> At the center of the fight is Barry

[12:46] Stopful, the man Bishop Writer ordained

[12:49] as a deacon six years ago. Stop is now

[12:52] the parish priest at St. George's Church

[12:54] in Maplewood, New Jersey. He had been

[12:57] screened by a psychiatrist, a doctor of

[13:00] parish vestry, a diosis and commission

[13:02] on ministry, a diosis standing

[13:04] committee, a bishop, a a seminary for

[13:08] three years. I didn't choose to ordain

[13:10] Barry because he was gay. I chose to

[13:13] ordain Barry because he had was well

[13:16] qualified. Barry Stoppel and his partner

[13:19] live openly as a gay couple in the

[13:21] church rectory. Stoppel believes the

[13:23] Episcopal policy asking homosexuals to

[13:26] live a celibate life is a denial of

[13:29] their basic humanity.

[13:30] >> I think it's very hard to be

[13:34] a deeply committed Christian and remain

[13:37] in the closet because I believe that

[13:40] part of the Christian proclamation is

[13:42] that each of us should be fully who God

[13:46] forms us to be. I believe God formed me

[13:51] to be a gay man.

[13:53] >> And so on the day that he was installed

[13:55] as a minister and there were just people

[13:57] that came and embraced me and brought me

[14:00] into the circle of his installation

[14:02] service um and that I was welcomed as a

[14:06] member of the family um deeply and

[14:09] sincerely um welcome into people's homes

[14:14] um in their lives. The body of Christ,

[14:19] the bread of heaven.

[14:20] >> St. George's is a picture of diversity

[14:23] and affluent suburban New Jersey parish

[14:25] that attracts a number of gay

[14:26] worshippers. But there is no apparent

[14:29] concern here, even from married couples

[14:31] with children, about the ability of a

[14:33] gay priest to set a wholesome example.

[14:36] >> Some people might say that a gay priest

[14:37] cannot be a good role model for

[14:39] children. And I would say that anybody

[14:42] who believes that should meet uh Barry

[14:45] and they'll understand that he's uh a

[14:47] real man and that he's uh a person of

[14:51] tremendous integrity

[14:53] um who is a wonderful role model for

[14:56] everybody.

[14:56] >> There were people who had some concerns

[14:58] about it, how it would be received in

[15:00] the larger community. Um but once they

[15:02] knew Barry and Will, um most of those

[15:05] most of those uh concerns just faded

[15:08] away. In the Episcopal House of Bishops,

[15:10] where church policy is debated,

[15:12] tolerance for homosexuality has steadily

[15:15] grown in recent years.

[15:16] >> I think it's important to say and to

[15:18] recognize that there are a lot of us who

[15:23] believe that persons may be in same

[15:27] gender relationships

[15:29] and that that can be moral. Some of us

[15:32] are gay, some of us are lesbian, and our

[15:35] way of being intimate is with a person,

[15:38] another man, another woman. Um, this has

[15:43] to be something that's addressed.

[15:45] >> Two years ago, more than 70 of the

[15:47] nearly 300 bishops signed a defiant

[15:50] statement proclaiming the right of

[15:51] individual bishops, not the church, to

[15:54] have the final say in who is ordained.

[15:57] Its author is Bishop John Spong of

[15:59] Newark who has himself been censured for

[16:01] ordaining homosexuals.

[16:03] >> I have 15 priests in this dasis who are

[16:06] serving churches who are fully out of

[16:08] the closet. Many of them live with their

[16:11] partners. The people in those

[16:13] congregations know that they are a gay

[16:15] couple or a lesbian couple. They are

[16:17] some of the most outstanding clergy I've

[16:19] got. Even church officials at national

[16:21] headquarters have little enthusiasm for

[16:24] a heresy trial in a faith that takes

[16:26] pride in its ambiguity. Well, it's a

[16:28] contradiction of our style. This is a

[16:31] church that does not demand heavy

[16:33] allegiance to creeds. It's not a church

[16:36] heavy on rules. The elasticity of of the

[16:39] Episcopal Church is is a wondrous thing.

[16:42] And a heresy trial is therefore a

[16:45] contradiction. For Bishop Writer, the

[16:47] consequences of a heresy trial are more

[16:49] symbolic than punitive. Even if the

[16:52] court of nine bishops convicts him of

[16:54] heresy, Bishop Writer may only be

[16:56] admonished or stripped of his title. He

[16:58] won't be burned at the stake, and even

[17:00] his pension is safe. Is this trial going

[17:03] to resolve the issue of homosexuals in

[17:06] the church?

[17:07] >> You can't resolve this kind of issue

[17:08] with a trial.

[17:10] >> That's ridiculous to even think you can.

[17:14] even if I'm convicted.

[17:17] That's one thing they they can take away

[17:19] this bishop stuff, but they can't take

[17:22] away my baptism in the kingdom of God.

[17:29] >> Some voices in the church pray that the

[17:31] heresy trial will end the confusion

[17:34] about gays in the clergy, but many

[17:36] others are just as convinced the issue

[17:38] is much too charged and complex for a

[17:40] trial alone to produce any simple

[17:43] truths. no matter what the outcome. This

[17:46] is Chris Yuri Fortnite Line in

[17:48] Washington.

[17:51] >> When we come back, we'll be joined by

[17:52] the man accused of heresy, Bishop Walter

[17:54] Reutder.

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[20:45] Joining us now from the Wilmington,

[20:46] Delaware bureau of ABC station WPVI,

[20:49] Walter Writer, who was the Episcopal

[20:52] bishop for Iowa for 17 years until he

[20:54] retired in 1989. One of my colleagues,

[20:57] Bishop, proposed this question to me

[20:59] before I came down. The more I think

[21:01] about it, the more appropriate I think

[21:02] this is. You must have given a great

[21:05] deal of prayerful thought to what is

[21:07] going to happen tomorrow morning. What

[21:08] are you praying for?

[21:10] I think uh

[21:13] basically new wisdom in the church.

[21:16] We've been ordaining gay people for

[21:18] 2,000 years. There's nothing new about

[21:21] ordaining gay people. What's new about

[21:23] this discussion and all the heat that's

[21:26] generated is the question of shall we be

[21:28] honest about these ordinations and

[21:30] honest about the fact that people are

[21:33] going to have intimate relationships. We

[21:36] can't deny people intimate

[21:38] relationships.

[21:40] 20 million people in the United States,

[21:42] we're saying can't have intimate

[21:43] relationships.

[21:44] >> Well, there are certain kinds of

[21:45] intimate relationships that indeed we we

[21:47] do deny one another both under the law

[21:52] and under church law. If, for example, a

[21:55] married priest in your church were to

[21:57] have an extrammarital affair, that would

[21:59] be an intimate relationship that is

[22:01] denied, would it not?

[22:02] >> Yeah. that gets uh

[22:05] it kind of muddies the waters because we

[22:07] don't permit gay people to have a

[22:10] ceremony blessing their relationship.

[22:13] And I think that's one of the issues

[22:14] before us. Will we provide any kind of

[22:18] opportunity for gay people who some of

[22:21] whom I've known have lived 25 and 35

[22:23] years together. Will we provide an

[22:25] opportunity for the church to have some

[22:27] kind of ceremony blessing that

[22:29] relationship? Well, indeed you have led

[22:30] me precisely where I was going and that

[22:32] is I was going to ask you whether indeed

[22:34] you would favor that and it seems to me

[22:36] you are.

[22:38] >> I think uh my own personal opinion is we

[22:41] really need to do something about that

[22:43] but the general convention is already

[22:44] wrestling with it and I have hoped that

[22:46] the church will deal with it the way it

[22:49] does with other things very thoroughly

[22:51] and with some ambiguity but with some

[22:53] kindness and love.

[22:55] >> This heresy trial, why now? Why you?

[23:00] >> I think why me is a question I've

[23:01] puzzled over myself a lot. Uh I think

[23:04] I'm a substitute for Jack Spang, and I'm

[23:07] not sure exactly why that's so. The

[23:10] reasons that my presenters have given

[23:12] for pres for having the presentment vary

[23:16] according to the presenter. So this not

[23:19] a very clear thing about that. Well,

[23:21] it's it's been suggested to me that that

[23:23] one of the reasons they're coming after

[23:25] you uh is because a you've retired. Uh b

[23:30] uh the statute of limitations in your

[23:32] case might soon be expiring and c which

[23:34] might be the most important of all. Uh

[23:36] they they thought you were the weakest

[23:38] link among all the bishops. That is that

[23:41] you did not have a very strong dasis

[23:43] behind you.

[23:44] >> I think all three of those probably are

[23:46] true. But it's not true that the statute

[23:49] of limitations expired on me before it

[23:51] expired on anybody else. It expired on

[23:53] the bishop of Washington before it

[23:56] expired on me. And I think the retired

[23:59] thing and the desire to get it Jack

[24:02] Spong uh are both

[24:05] uh factors in the whole thing and and

[24:08] fortunately for me the Dasis of Newark

[24:10] is making its resources its chancellor

[24:14] available to me. This is not going to be

[24:16] a cheap procedure, is it?

[24:18] >> That's right. It according to the

[24:20] secretary of the general convention, it

[24:23] will cost about $400,000

[24:25] for the prosecution side. My side can

[24:30] cost anywhere from 200 to 300,000.

[24:32] >> And where did you get the money?

[24:34] >> The writer defense fund has been started

[24:36] by the dasis of New York. And people

[24:39] from all over the world have sent gifts.

[24:40] I've had letters from Moscow, Russia,

[24:42] from Desmond Tutu from South Africa sent

[24:45] a contribution.

[24:47] >> I began by asking you what what you're

[24:50] praying for uh that you hope will come

[24:53] out of all of this. What do you think

[24:55] those who have brought these charges

[24:57] against you hope to achieve by this?

[24:59] What have you heard that they hope to

[25:00] achieve? I think uh there are all kinds

[25:04] of each one of those persons has a

[25:06] different reason but we're electing a

[25:08] presiding bishop in 1997 and I think

[25:11] they would like to have more leverage

[25:13] than they think they have. I think um

[25:16] there's some alienation from the

[25:19] mainstream of the church that maybe they

[25:21] hope they can get back into the

[25:22] mainstream with this method. I'm not

[25:25] sure.

[25:26] >> You don't strike me as someone who uh

[25:28] who gets nervous easily. You certainly

[25:30] don't give evidence of it, but you are

[25:32] you a little bit scared? I mean, to to

[25:34] have to have devoted your life to the

[25:36] church and to now be confronting a

[25:38] heresy trial tomorrow morning must give

[25:40] you pause at the very least.

[25:42] >> It does. U I I will not suppress my

[25:45] outrage. It's not so much anger, it's

[25:47] outrage,

[25:50] but for 20 million people in the United

[25:52] States who are put on the spot, who are

[25:54] being scapegoed as a gay lesbian

[25:56] community. At the same time, my wife and

[25:58] I are very grateful and we feel buoyed

[26:00] up by the prayers and concern of people

[26:02] all over the world. And we feel a sense

[26:05] of privilege for being right on the on

[26:07] the fault line between the past and the

[26:09] future. Uh the fault line is where we

[26:11] have to live all of us. And it's more

[26:14] fun to to be there where you take the

[26:17] risk than it is to try and drag people

[26:19] back into the into the past for safety's

[26:21] sake.

[26:22] >> Not exactly what you thought of when you

[26:23] retired, is it?

[26:24] >> No, it isn't. But that's all right. You

[26:27] never know what's coming around the

[26:29] corner each day.

[26:30] >> What happens tomorrow morning?

[26:32] >> Tomorrow morning, we will begin the the

[26:34] day with a service of Holy Communion.

[26:36] And then uh the attorneys for both sides

[26:39] will deliver a paper that they've been

[26:41] asked to deliver by the court saying

[26:43] what the sources of doctrine are for the

[26:45] Episcopal Church as they see it.

[26:47] >> And how long do you anticipate the the

[26:50] whole trial will last?

[26:51] >> Well, tomorrow morning will determine

[26:53] something like that. I think tomorrow we

[26:56] will reassess for the for the court to

[26:59] to hear to think about what they've

[27:01] heard. Whether we will get any kind of

[27:04] definitive decision after the after a

[27:07] day or so goes by, I just don't know.

[27:09] >> You you you expressed uh outrage a

[27:11] moment ago. Are you a little bit nervous

[27:13] though?

[27:14] >> No, not so much. I I'm I'm a little

[27:16] tired of all this stuff and I'll be glad

[27:18] to have it pass. But nervousness is not

[27:22] uh it's not so much in my makeup. I was

[27:25] probably more nervous when I took a test

[27:27] driver's test up in New Hampshire than I

[27:29] am now.

[27:30] >> Bishop Brighter, it's uh it's a pleasure

[27:32] talking to you and uh you have a you

[27:35] have an interesting day ahead of you

[27:36] tomorrow. Thanks very much for coming

[27:38] in.

[27:39] >> Thank you for including me.

[27:40] >> I'll be back in a moment.

[27:48] You could play in the rain.

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[28:45] >> There are a lot of women out there that

[28:46] become pregnant each year. While I was

[28:48] pregnant, I could feel that the lap and

[28:51] shoulder belt were properly positioned,

[28:54] but I didn't know if that would protect

[28:56] the baby in a car crash. GM is working

[28:58] on the development of the pregnant

[28:59] dummy. This dummy is going to be a mom.

[29:02] I I think we need a better understanding

[29:04] and the best way is to develop a

[29:07] prototype and test it. I think that

[29:09] pregnancy is a very happy time in

[29:11] people's lives. It's my goal as a mother

[29:13] to protect them.

[29:16] >> Sammy Martin of Portland relies on

[29:18] Channel 2 Storm Team coverage.

[29:20] >> We turn the TV on, as some people would

[29:23] turn on the radio for background. I

[29:25] always turn on channel 2 news. As a

[29:27] business, we learned where we could not

[29:30] go and should not go in terms of our

[29:32] guys safety. You were everywhere at all

[29:35] times and showed us what we needed to

[29:38] see.