The MacNeil/Lehrer NewsHour (PBS) - 1992-02-28
Channel: malgent
Transcript
Language: English (original, YouTube automatic captions)
[0:00] service.
[0:07] >> Good evening. I'm Judy Woodruff in
[0:09] Washington
[0:10] >> and I'm Robert McNeel in New York. After
[0:12] we summarize the news this Friday, we
[0:14] report on the Maryland primary where
[0:16] Paul Songis needs to show he can win
[0:18] outside his home territory. We analyze
[0:20] all the week's politics with David
[0:22] Gurgen and Mark Shields. We have a
[0:24] documentary look at how the Kurds are
[0:26] surviving in Iraq and discuss what they
[0:28] want from the United States.
[0:32] >> Part of helping the world live and
[0:34] communicate better is keeping it well
[0:36] informed.
[0:38] That's why funding for the McNeel Lair
[0:40] NewsHour is provided by AT&T
[0:46] and by PepsiCo.
[0:53] Mexico
[0:55] and by the Corporation for Public
[0:57] Broadcasting and viewers like you.
[1:02] >> Iraq today defied a United Nations
[1:04] deadline for the destruction of some of
[1:06] its Scud missile facilities. Iraq sent
[1:08] the Security Council a letter just
[1:10] before the mid-after afternoon deadline.
[1:12] US Ambassador Thomas Pickering said the
[1:14] letter was totally unacceptable and in
[1:16] his words amounted to seven pages of no.
[1:19] Asked whether a military strike against
[1:21] Iraq was possible, Pickering said no
[1:24] option had been ruled out. Jeffrey
[1:26] Archer of Independent Television News
[1:28] reports on Iraq's continuing defiance of
[1:30] the Gulf War ceasefire resolutions.
[1:33] >> Iraq wants the UN Security Council to
[1:35] lift sanctions, but is continuing to
[1:38] resist UN measures to destroy its
[1:40] weapons of mass destruction. Well, uh,
[1:42] the Iraqis never cease to surprise me,
[1:44] but they are clearly now moving in a
[1:46] mode of challenging the resolutions
[1:49] which the Security Council has passed,
[1:51] and we know that that is not a useful
[1:53] route to proceed on.
[1:56] >> Iraq has allowed destruction of some of
[1:58] its Scud missiles, but retains the
[2:00] equipment to build more of them. That's
[2:02] what the UN inspectors insist the Iraqis
[2:04] must agree to destroy. It's the second
[2:06] time in 6 months that the UN and Iraq
[2:09] have clashed over the elimination of
[2:10] Iraqi weapons. Last September, there was
[2:13] a 4-day row over documents revealing the
[2:16] size of the Iraqi nuclear program.
[2:19] Saddam Hussein's government wants the UN
[2:21] to ease sanctions if he's to cooperate,
[2:24] but the UN insists on full unconditional
[2:26] compliance with the ceasefire terms, and
[2:29] international pressure for Saddam's
[2:30] removal is now increasing.
[2:33] The UN Security Council today gave
[2:35] formal approval to a UN peacekeeping
[2:37] operation in Cambodia. The 22,000 member
[2:40] force will virtually run the country
[2:42] until free elections are held in 1993.
[2:45] The Security Council approval was
[2:47] unanimous. The peacekeeping operation
[2:49] will be the largest ever undertaken by
[2:51] the UN, which last fall brokered a
[2:53] ceasefire in Cambodia's 13-year-old
[2:56] civil war. Judy,
[2:58] >> the US economy grew faster than
[3:01] previously thought in the last three
[3:03] months of 1991. The Commerce Department
[3:06] reported today the gross domestic
[3:08] product rose8%
[3:10] in the fourth quarter, up from its
[3:12] original estimate of.3%.
[3:14] The GDP, as it's called, was down.7%
[3:19] for all of 1991.
[3:21] General Motors signed an agreement today
[3:23] to build cars in Poland. The $75 million
[3:27] deal with the Polish government is the
[3:29] biggest investment to date by a US
[3:32] company in that country. Poland has
[3:34] lagged behind other former East Block
[3:36] nations in attracting Western
[3:38] investment. GM Europe plans to assemble
[3:41] about 35,000 cars a year at the Warsaw
[3:45] plant.
[3:46] >> A Michigan judge ruled today that Dr.
[3:48] Jack Kavorian, the inventor of the
[3:50] so-called suicide machine, should be
[3:52] tried for murder. The 63-year-old doctor
[3:55] has been charged with helping two women
[3:57] commit suicide last October. A medical
[4:00] examiner ruled those deaths as
[4:01] homicides. The women were suffering from
[4:04] chronic but not terminal diseases and
[4:06] used Dr. Kavorian's machine to kill
[4:08] themselves.
[4:09] >> A bomb exploded at one of London's
[4:12] busiest train stations today. It
[4:14] happened at the London Bridge station
[4:16] during the morning rush hour. At least
[4:18] 28 people were hurt and police are
[4:21] blaming the Irish Republican Army. Robin
[4:24] White of Independent Television News
[4:26] reports
[4:26] >> the bomb exploded at the height of the
[4:28] rush hour. 2 lb of seexs on a timing
[4:31] device left in a lavatory between two
[4:33] platforms. The blast rocked the
[4:36] concourse sending people and glass
[4:38] flying.
[4:40] There had been a warning without saying
[4:42] which station. Phone to a television
[4:44] company at 8:15. At 8:20, the police
[4:47] were alerted. At 8:29, the bomb
[4:50] exploded, leaving no time to evacuate
[4:52] people. As the injured were carried out,
[4:55] the nearby Guys Hospital was put on
[4:57] alert. Of the 28 hurt, four suffered
[5:00] what were described as moderately
[5:01] serious injuries. Surgeons were
[5:03] surprised that the casualties had not
[5:05] been worse.
[5:07] >> The command of the anti-terrorist squad
[5:09] described the bombing as a typical
[5:11] irresponsible criminal and call by the
[5:14] provisional IRA.
[5:16] London Bridge was reopened by lunchtime
[5:18] with traders ruing a lost morning's
[5:21] takings. Other stations though continued
[5:23] to be disrupted with a series of alerts.
[5:26] The US Civil Rights Commission today
[5:29] urged presidential candidates to end the
[5:31] political rhetoric it described as Japan
[5:33] bashing. The commission said leaders who
[5:36] unthinkingly blame Japan for this
[5:39] country's economic woes are contributing
[5:41] to a rise in racial animosity and
[5:44] violence against all Asian-Americans.
[5:46] Asians are the fastest growing minority
[5:49] group in the United States and numbers
[5:51] 7.3 million people. Today's report by
[5:54] the Civil Rights Commission followed two
[5:56] years of research and hearings on the
[5:58] problems facing Asians in this country.
[6:02] Conflict between the former Soviet
[6:04] republics of Armenia and Azerbaijan
[6:06] appeared to be escalating today. Troops
[6:08] of the former Soviet army were ordered
[6:10] out of a disputed region in Azeraijan
[6:13] after heavy fighting between the rival
[6:15] republics. This amateur video shot
[6:17] Wednesday shows Armenian forces
[6:20] attacking a town in that region. It's
[6:22] populated by Christian Armenians but
[6:24] controlled by Muslim Azaba. An Iranian
[6:27] brokered ceasefire collapsed yesterday,
[6:29] just hours after it was declared. And
[6:32] today, Armenia called on its citizens in
[6:34] the former Soviet army to create a
[6:36] national army to defend the republic
[6:38] from Azerbaian.
[6:40] Albania's main port was sealed today
[6:42] after several days of food riots. The
[6:44] action came after thousands of people
[6:46] had crammed the port in the hope of
[6:48] fleeing to Italy. Last summer, tens of
[6:51] thousands of Albanians fled to Italy
[6:52] aboard commandeered ships in a bid to
[6:55] escape food shortages and poverty. Most
[6:57] were returned to Albania. At least three
[6:59] people have been killed this week in the
[7:01] latest wave of rioting over continued
[7:03] food shortages. That's it for our news
[7:06] summary. Just ahead on the NewsHour, the
[7:08] presidential campaign heats up. We have
[7:10] a report from Maryland and analysis from
[7:13] Gurgen and Shields. Then, the continuing
[7:15] struggle of the Kurds in Saddam
[7:17] Hussein's Iraq.
[7:27] First up tonight is campaign 92. This
[7:30] has been a turbulent week. The
[7:32] Democratic race got nasty and the
[7:34] Republican contest got meaner. We'll
[7:37] hear from our regular political analysis
[7:39] analysts Gergen and Shield about all
[7:42] that in a moment. But first, a look at
[7:44] the Democratic battle in Maryland, where
[7:46] former Massachusetts Senator Paul Sunus,
[7:49] who won in New Hampshire, is facing a
[7:52] critical test of his ability to win
[7:54] outside his home base.
[7:56] >> I really need your help. This is this is
[7:59] the place where a lot of people are
[8:00] going to watch us and make a
[8:02] determination about our viability. This
[8:04] place is the state of Maryland. Not
[8:07] quite the south, but far enough away
[8:09] from New England to be considered a test
[8:12] of Paul Sangas' appeal outside his
[8:15] native region.
[8:16] >> If Paul Sanis does well here, I think
[8:19] it'll help him quite a bit in some of
[8:22] those so-called border states, and I'm
[8:23] not talking about geographic border in
[8:25] terms of political purposes.
[8:29] Where New Hampshire offered all the
[8:31] Democratic candidates for president a
[8:33] few hundred,000 voters at whom to aim
[8:36] their appeal, Maryland is more crowded.
[8:39] Some 1.4 million registered Democrats
[8:43] and it's more diverse. Where New
[8:45] Hampshire was almost totally white,
[8:48] Maryland is 25% black and more than 5%
[8:52] Asian, Hispanic, or other ethnic groups.
[8:55] We have u the seventh congressional
[8:57] district which is Baltimore City and
[8:59] Baltimore County which is 70% black. But
[9:02] we have the sixth congressional district
[9:04] in western Maryland which is uh um only
[9:07] 2% 2 to 3% uh minority district and
[9:11] represents
[9:12] um a sort of a Lincoln Republicanism if
[9:16] you if you will similar to what you may
[9:18] find in the Ohio Valley and out into
[9:20] Indiana. Uh, in southern Maryland on the
[9:23] Eastern Shore, uh, we're very much like
[9:26] some of the southern areas around
[9:27] Atlanta.
[9:29] >> John Willis, a local government official
[9:31] and college professor who has written a
[9:34] book on presidential elections in
[9:36] Maryland, says his state has economic
[9:38] variety as well.
[9:40] >> We have a large government workforce.
[9:42] Um, we also have a um,
[9:47] diverse labor base. We have everything
[9:49] from watermen and rural agricultural to
[9:53] manufacturing industrial base around the
[9:55] Baltimore port.
[9:57] >> Because of this diversity, some have
[9:59] called Maryland America in miniature.
[10:03] One thing that makes it different,
[10:04] however, is that voters are clearly
[10:07] affected by being so close to the center
[10:09] of the federal government. I think our
[10:11] geographic proximity to the nation's
[10:13] capital makes us a little more skeptical
[10:17] to national political slogans and we
[10:20] tend to look uh at more at can the
[10:24] person run government as opposed to
[10:27] where are they in terms of their symbols
[10:29] and where are they in terms of any kind
[10:31] of media campaign. my glasses.
[10:35] >> That may actually work to the benefit of
[10:37] the former Massachusetts senator, whose
[10:40] appearances on television are hardly
[10:42] polished.
[10:43] >> People say that this is my attempt at a
[10:46] new look.
[10:47] >> Helpful or not, it's a sharp contrast to
[10:50] Sus's chief rival here, Arkansas
[10:53] Governor Bill Clinton, who shines on
[10:55] camera and in front of crowds even when
[10:58] he's losing his voice. I got into
[11:01] politics because I could not stand the
[11:03] thought of people growing up and not
[11:06] living up to their god-given potential.
[11:08] And I'm running for president because
[11:11] that is not happening today. And I can't
[11:14] do better. Thank you very much.
[11:17] >> Any other year that powerful TV delivery
[11:20] and an appealing message might make
[11:22] Clinton a shoein, particularly in a race
[11:25] where voters have little time to make up
[11:27] their minds. And Clinton may yet do well
[11:30] here, well, with his impressive
[11:32] organization and long list of
[11:34] endorsements from elected officials,
[11:37] including the black mayor of Baltimore,
[11:39] Kurt Schmoke. But political observers
[11:42] say with no victory under his belt,
[11:45] Clinton is handicapped.
[11:47] >> If he'd won in New Hampshire, he would
[11:48] have had that momentum coming in here
[11:50] and he'd had he would have had the
[11:52] people on the street to hand out his
[11:53] literature and talk. But, uh, at this
[11:55] point, they're they're playing a little
[11:56] catch-up, I think. What do you mean?
[11:58] Because because of the coming in second
[12:00] in New Hampshire.
[12:02] >> Well, he he um he's a little bit
[12:06] offbalance. It seems given my sense of
[12:09] the of his people and and the way
[12:11] they're behaving here is that they're a
[12:13] little off balance. They don't quite
[12:14] know where to go.
[12:15] >> The SAS campaign, on the other hand, is
[12:17] facing a more receptive electorate in
[12:20] some ways than they expected. Maryland
[12:22] is a state that time and again has
[12:24] elected politicians with Greek, Polish,
[12:27] and other ethnic backgrounds. The name
[12:29] Sus won't be as off-putting here as it
[12:32] might be in the Deep South. As for his
[12:35] economic message, a progrowth, pro
[12:38] business blueprint, opposed to any of
[12:40] the current plans for a modest middle
[12:42] class tax cut, Sonus has apparently
[12:45] struck a responsive chord.
[12:48] >> The first job is to give the middle
[12:49] class work.
[12:51] um that is the ultimate obligation. And
[12:54] then when the economy is running, we
[12:56] deal with a deficit, we're a competitive
[12:58] nation, and we're in a position where
[12:59] we're profitable in terms of taxes, then
[13:02] you can go back and lower the taxes of
[13:05] the middle class and raise the taxes um
[13:07] on the wealthy. So you bring some kind
[13:09] of balance, but this is not the time to
[13:11] do that. Not you have a 400 billion
[13:14] dollar deficit. Sensing that the message
[13:17] is winning over voters, Clinton has gone
[13:20] on the attack and tried to paint Songus
[13:22] as more Republican than Democrat.
[13:25] >> Time magazine says much of what song
[13:27] proposes smacks of trickle down
[13:28] economics. He even says he'll be the
[13:30] best friend Wall Street ever had.
[13:32] >> Clinton himself conceded that one chunk
[13:35] of the Maryland electorate is tailorade
[13:38] for his opponent.
[13:39] >> Oh, I don't even know that I'll win
[13:41] there. I'm just going to try to win
[13:42] there. After all, suburban Maryland is
[13:46] basically dominated by highincome
[13:48] Democrats. And Mr. Sonus' appeal is
[13:50] primarily to high-income Democrats.
[13:52] >> Political analysts agree that Sonis' no
[13:55] Santa Claus take your medicine message
[13:58] was wellreceived by better educated and
[14:01] higher income Democrats in New
[14:03] Hampshire. Those voters dominate in the
[14:06] densely populated area north of the
[14:08] capital city. On paper then SA should
[14:11] have a leg up in Maryland. And we found
[14:14] many Democratic voters this week in the
[14:17] affluent DC suburbs who are drawn to
[14:19] him. But we also found them worried
[14:22] about whether he can be elected in
[14:24] November.
[14:25] >> I find that I probably believe a lot of
[14:28] what he says and even I who believe in
[14:31] what he says finds it difficult to
[14:32] listen to him. Um that's a shame
[14:36] >> because of why? because
[14:37] >> because his voice is monotonous and I
[14:39] and I wish I didn't have to say that.
[14:42] >> Um I wish I could jump up and down and
[14:44] get excited when I heard him speak,
[14:47] >> but I do like what he says. How
[14:49] important to you is it that the
[14:51] Democratic nominee be electable, as you
[14:53] put it right now,
[14:56] I don't want to say winning is
[14:57] everything, but it's a lot.
[15:00] >> Songus makes uh Dukakus look like a song
[15:03] and dance man. You know, his ideas are
[15:06] good. Um I don't think he'll be
[15:09] electable because um the American people
[15:12] are so used to television personalities.
[15:14] They need 7-second bites and he doesn't
[15:16] have them really.
[15:18] >> Yeah. You know, his ideas are great, but
[15:20] not too many of the electric are going
[15:22] to read his ideas.
[15:23] >> Is that a reason to vote against him?
[15:25] >> Oh, no. I will vote. That's probably who
[15:27] I will end up voting for because, you
[15:30] know, he seems like a quality fellow.
[15:32] But uh I'm not excited about the choice
[15:35] and I don't think he can beat George
[15:37] Bush. And I would love to have somebody
[15:38] that could beat George Bush. I really
[15:40] would.
[15:43] That same theme is also uppermost on the
[15:46] minds of a group of black voters from
[15:48] inner city Baltimore. Put together by a
[15:51] community organizer. They told us
[15:53] getting a Democrat in the White House is
[15:55] their chief concern. I think our cities
[15:58] and particularly the um um the
[16:01] African-American community has been
[16:03] devastated by the Reagan Bush uh
[16:06] administration and the policies of
[16:08] disinvestment and uh disenfranchisement
[16:10] that we've seen occur over the last 12
[16:13] years.
[16:14] >> Leslie Howard works for the city's
[16:16] economic development corporation. Joseph
[16:19] Slade retired two years ago from a steel
[16:22] company where he had worked for almost
[16:24] four decades. right now. He says he
[16:27] would vote for either Clinton or Sonus.
[16:30] >> I think they are in the lead and
[16:35] we got so many Democrats out there
[16:37] running. If you get two in the lead, I
[16:40] said pick those two up and send them on
[16:42] to the top.
[16:43] >> Is there something about Mr. Clinton
[16:45] that appeals to you in particular, do
[16:47] you think?
[16:48] >> No, not really. Neither one of them did
[16:51] anything to impress me, but they're
[16:53] Democrats, so this is what we have. So
[16:56] that's the way I have to go.
[16:59] >> Uh what about you, Mr. Green? Any any
[17:01] candidate clearly express what you're
[17:04] interested in?
[17:05] >> No, not exactly. Uh I just got my eye on
[17:10] Paul.
[17:10] >> Who is that? Mr. Songis.
[17:12] >> Paul Sus.
[17:13] >> Why? Why is that? What do you think?
[17:15] >> From the way he sound on TV, I think he
[17:18] might might be the the right one.
[17:21] >> Sam Green formerly worked in the home
[17:23] improvement business. Bernardet Deon put
[17:26] the group together and is urging all her
[17:29] friends to vote, but she is discouraged
[17:32] that no Democrat this year is stressing
[17:35] the needs of lower income blacks.
[17:37] >> I would like to see a candidate that
[17:39] works for all of the people. Uh a
[17:42] candidate who's concerned with uh what's
[17:45] happening not only in the middle class
[17:47] segment but in the lower uh urban city
[17:50] uh communities. We have quite a lot of
[17:52] problems out here. crime and drugs.
[17:55] >> Not very many many of them have been
[17:58] willing to identify with poor people and
[18:01] and uh and and uh and the unemployed and
[18:04] the homeless and uh single mothers and
[18:06] and uh people on welfare. It's almost as
[18:10] if that constituency doesn't exist in
[18:11] this country.
[18:12] >> Because of that, this group agreed many
[18:15] blacks may not vote at all. They also
[18:17] complained about the lack of information
[18:20] about the candidates's views and
[18:22] criticized the news media for focusing
[18:24] too much on who's ahead. That same
[18:27] complaint arose here at the southern
[18:29] more rural end of the state in
[18:32] Leonardtown, Maryland. Income levels are
[18:34] higher and there is interest in Songas.
[18:38] I think it's Paul Sonis principally
[18:39] because he has shown a a consistent um
[18:44] perception that our problems are very
[18:46] very serious. They're fundamental. They
[18:48] are not amendable to change by quick
[18:50] easy kind of sloganering. He said that
[18:53] all of the issues about the budget even
[18:55] even entitlements the the sacred cows
[18:57] have to be looked at. I haven't heard
[18:59] anyone say that other than him.
[19:01] >> But as in the Washington suburbs, there
[19:04] is concern about his staying power. Sus
[19:07] does appeal to me. I like his notions
[19:09] too about national health insurance.
[19:11] Again, there has to be some kind of a
[19:13] relationship between government,
[19:15] leadership on the government, and it has
[19:17] to be some type of a responsible
[19:18] position taken by business, a commitment
[19:21] made, if you will, to share this cost.
[19:25] Um, the problem with Sus though is I
[19:27] don't think he can win.
[19:28] >> Civil servant Norm Geil is troubled by
[19:31] contradictions he sees in Songus'
[19:34] message. I think uh Sus is probably
[19:37] singing the best song. Uh although when
[19:40] you look at him as a Democrat now
[19:44] his track record doesn't speak that
[19:46] well. He has a split. He's for business
[19:50] issues on one side. That's because it's
[19:53] feeding his coppers. Then he turns and
[19:56] he goes to the real liberal side for the
[19:59] education and the welfare. And I I just
[20:02] feel that that that's the message he's
[20:04] sending down now. Is that what our
[20:06] people want?
[20:07] >> Well, I think that's an interesting
[20:08] characterization of a president of a
[20:11] potential president. On one hand, is
[20:13] seen as as pro business. He's very said
[20:14] very often. Uh, you know, Democrats love
[20:16] the employees. It's problem they have is
[20:19] with the employers and all that. He does
[20:20] have a pro business. On the other hand,
[20:22] he has a progressive social record which
[20:24] speaks to his ability to really enact a
[20:27] real national healthcare program. The
[20:29] one thing these Leonardtown Democrats
[20:31] agree on is there is a desire for change
[20:34] at the top.
[20:36] >> I agree with Mr. Witson. There is a
[20:38] definite need for leader with vision and
[20:41] and my feeling too is a person who's in
[20:42] touch with the population person who
[20:45] unlike George Bush who's going to say
[20:47] that yes there is a recession. I mean,
[20:49] not wait until someone tells him that
[20:51] uh, hey, well, second time around
[20:53] there's a recession, but realizes that,
[20:55] hey, out there out there, people out of
[20:56] work and they need more than what he's
[20:58] offering. It may be worth noting that
[21:01] unlike in New Hampshire, none of the
[21:03] voters we spoke with in Maryland
[21:05] mentioned Sus' health, his past battle
[21:07] with cancer. For more on where things
[21:10] stand in the political arena, we turn to
[21:12] Roger Mud. Roger,
[21:14] >> it's Friday and that means it's got to
[21:16] be Gurgen and Shields. And that means
[21:18] David Gurgen, editor at large for US
[21:20] News and World Report and Mark Shield,
[21:21] syndicated columnist. Let me ask each
[21:23] one of you very quickly for a thumbnail
[21:26] of this past Democratic week. David,
[21:29] >> Roger, we ended the week with blood on
[21:31] the floor. The comm candidates
[21:32] diminished in stature and a growing fear
[21:34] in the party, the same fear they had in
[21:36] 1988, that they won't be able to find a
[21:38] candidate when they go to the
[21:38] convention.
[21:39] >> Mark, uh, the Democrats had spent most
[21:41] of New Hampshire talking about ideas and
[21:44] policy. Uh this past week they reverted
[21:46] to more pristine democratic uh uh
[21:49] approach and started calling each other
[21:51] cowardly uh deceitful uh cold-blooded
[21:54] and uh dece and I guess just about
[21:56] everything else under the sun.
[21:58] >> All right, let let's take a a look at a
[22:00] few of those surprisingly harsh moments
[22:02] from this Democratic campaign this week.
[22:04] We begin with Senator Bob K's appearance
[22:07] on the NewsHour.
[22:09] Were you suggesting a moment ago,
[22:10] Senator, that you are more qualified to
[22:12] be president of the United States than
[22:14] Bill Clinton and then by inference Paul
[22:17] Sanongas and Jerry Brown because you
[22:19] served in the military?
[22:20] >> No, I'm just saying that it does give me
[22:22] an appreciation. Uh, and by the way, it
[22:25] allows me to go into the general
[22:26] election without that becoming an issue.
[22:29] And these Republicans will make it an
[22:31] issue. You mean
[22:32] >> hopefully they'll open up I think
[22:33] they're going to open up Bill Clinton
[22:35] like a boiled peanut on this issue. Uh
[22:38] and and and we ought to be debating the
[22:40] economy. We have to be debating jobs and
[22:42] healthcare and education and those
[22:44] things are important to Americans.
[22:46] >> I hope that tomorrow he'll wake up as
[22:48] his old self, remind himself that he
[22:51] came home as an opponent of the Vietnam
[22:53] War uh and remind himself of the facts
[22:56] of my case. I did nothing dishonorable.
[22:59] This illegal. I had a deferment. I gave
[23:01] it up. I put myself back into the draft.
[23:03] The lottery then came in. I got a high
[23:05] number. The facts are clear.
[23:07] >> The stepped up campaign pressure brought
[23:09] this unguarded outburst from Governor
[23:11] Clinton when he was told incorrectly
[23:14] that the Reverend Jesse Jackson had
[23:15] endorsed Iowa Senator Tom Harkin.
[23:18] Clinton was awaiting a television
[23:20] interview and apparently was not aware
[23:22] he was being videotaped.
[23:24] Uh,
[23:25] >> it's an outrage.
[23:27] It's a dirty double crossing,
[23:29] backstabbing thing to do. For him to do
[23:31] this, for me to hear this on the
[23:33] television program is an act of absolute
[23:36] dishonor. Everything he has bragged
[23:38] about, he has gushed to me about trust
[23:40] and trust and trust and it's a
[23:42] backstabbing thing to do.
[23:43] >> Seems to me here's an individual who
[23:46] sort of flies off the handle, reacts
[23:48] vehemently to a rumor.
[23:51] I don't know if that's the kind of
[23:52] leader of America that we want.
[23:55] Well, Mark, do we all agree, David, that
[23:57] the great campaign of 1992 of uh high
[24:01] purpose and seriousness melted in the
[24:03] snows of New Hampshire? Well, it seems
[24:05] to have Roger uh Bob Kerry won a big
[24:07] comeback victory in South Dakota this
[24:09] week, getting 40% of the vote against
[24:10] the whole field and then proceeded to go
[24:12] down south and use this 15 seconds or 15
[24:16] minutes in the uh in the spotlight uh to
[24:18] uh to raise the question about Bill
[24:20] Clinton's fitness based upon his past
[24:23] non-military service. and uh rather than
[24:25] making the case why he Kerry ought to be
[24:29] president made the case it seemed
[24:30] instead why Clinton shouldn't be uh and
[24:33] that and that and and Clinton followed
[24:35] suit. Clinton went after Sonus as being
[24:37] coldhearted and coldblooded
[24:38] compassionless wretch and Sonis came
[24:41] back and said since when has Bill
[24:43] Clinton become the uh house expert on
[24:45] courage so it it those aren't great
[24:48] issues but it's it's pretty tough stuff.
[24:50] What what do you make of that outburst
[24:52] that we just saw from Governor Clinton?
[24:54] Was that justifiable under the
[24:56] circumstances? What's it tell you about
[24:57] Clinton?
[24:58] >> Uh nothing very pleasant. I I think it
[25:00] was unfortunate. I think we've entered
[25:02] the testosterone phase of the campaign.
[25:04] Roger. We've got we've got all these 21
[25:06] primaries coming up in the next couple
[25:07] of weeks. A rich load of delegates, over
[25:09] 2,000 delegates are going to be
[25:10] selected. Each one of these Democrats is
[25:12] now bashing one of the other guys. At
[25:14] least most of them are taking that
[25:15] initiative. Both certainly Carrie and
[25:16] Clinton have this week. uh and and
[25:19] because they want to get through this
[25:20] and get get maximize if they can. In a
[25:21] couple of cases, they want to see if
[25:22] they can just survive through the
[25:24] southern primaries. In Bill Clinton's
[25:25] case, he wants to see if they can kill
[25:26] off at least one or two of the other
[25:28] candidates so he can essentially wrap
[25:30] this thing up. In Bill Clinton's case, I
[25:32] think this this film clip with with
[25:34] Jesse Jackson showed him in a moment of
[25:37] temper that I think was most unfortunate
[25:39] for him. I think people saw a side of
[25:40] him that they didn't perhaps didn't know
[25:42] was there. And it was it suggests very
[25:45] poor staff work. Um, it suggests he's
[25:47] got a very short fuse. I I think the
[25:48] truth of the matter is I saw him up in
[25:50] New Hampshire a couple of weeks ago and
[25:52] he was so wound up uncharacteristically.
[25:54] I think he's tired. I think he feels
[25:55] under assault. I think he's angry at his
[25:57] opponents. He's angry at the press for
[25:59] the way he's been treated. And he's
[26:00] really he's he's he's tight. And so when
[26:02] somebody this got to him, he just lashed
[26:04] out. I think he let some of that emotion
[26:06] go.
[26:06] >> So if he doesn't win in Georgia,
[26:09] >> Mark, is he all through?
[26:11] >> He Bill Clinton. Yeah.
[26:12] >> Uh yeah, but I don't know anybody who
[26:14] doesn't expect him to win in Georgia. I
[26:16] think that's a given now.
[26:17] >> I think I think that it seems to be a
[26:19] given. He's got the entire political
[26:20] establishment behind him overwhelmingly
[26:22] black and white, the governor, the mayor
[26:23] of Atlanta, Mayor Jackson, former Mary
[26:25] Andy Young, Governor Zel Miller, Senator
[26:28] Sam Nun. I mean, it's just it's John
[26:30] Lewis, the enormously respected
[26:33] congressman and leader of the civil
[26:35] rights movement. But you could see, I
[26:36] think David's right about the way he
[26:38] lashed out. Uh he lashed out at Paul
[26:40] Sonis and somebody said, "Why, you know,
[26:42] he see some numbers that showed Songus
[26:44] moving?" He may very well have in
[26:45] Maryland seen some poll numbers that
[26:47] showed Songus in pretty good shape. But
[26:49] he he said Sunus has had a free ride.
[26:51] He's had a free ride. He's he's been
[26:52] able to define himself. And this is a
[26:55] guy, Bill Clinton, who's been fending
[26:57] off uh allegations, accusations,
[26:59] charges, and hasn't been able I mean,
[27:01] it's been a long time since he's been
[27:02] able to define himself in terms of his
[27:04] own electability and his own special
[27:06] message. He's been very much on the
[27:07] defensive.
[27:08] >> Now, let me ask you about Carrie. Uh
[27:10] Carrie dismissed the Clinton draft issue
[27:13] as a non-issue when it first came up.
[27:15] Now he's dusted it off. Does does that
[27:17] does Carrie run the rest now of being
[27:19] seen as as desperate?
[27:21] >> Well, here's his thing. You're right.
[27:23] Not only brushed off the draft issue,
[27:25] remember he suspended Harrison Hickman
[27:26] his p his pollster before the New
[27:29] Hampshire primary for raising the issue
[27:30] with reporters. Uh and now he's turned
[27:32] around and used it. Clearly what he's
[27:34] trying to do is is Mark is right. Bill
[27:37] Clinton's going to win Georgia. But it's
[27:39] very important from Car's point of view
[27:40] to hold that margin down. If they can
[27:42] hold Clinton under 50, if they can hold
[27:44] him down in the 40s somewhere to make it
[27:46] look like a small win, Carrie can if
[27:48] Carrie could come in second there, he
[27:49] could then go on to the other southern
[27:51] primaries. He wants to set himself up as
[27:52] the alternative to Bill Clinton as
[27:53] opposed to Paul Sonis. If he comes in
[27:55] third below in Georgia and then winds up
[27:58] third in these other southern primaries,
[27:59] he's basically finished.
[28:00] >> Yeah. Where does Sus fit into all this,
[28:02] Mark?
[28:03] >> Well, I think I think Paul Sus is is
[28:05] betting the uh betting the rent money on
[28:07] Maryland. He's got to he's got to win
[28:08] outside of New England. He had a a
[28:10] dismal showing in South Dakota in spite
[28:12] of the fact that it was his wife's home
[28:13] state and he had his father-in-law cut a
[28:15] television spot for him. And I and I
[28:17] think he's just got to show some
[28:18] strength. Let me a slight descent on on
[28:20] on the Kerry strategy. I think that uh
[28:23] Kerry made a mistake quite frankly. I
[28:24] think if if Kerry were thinking in uh
[28:27] the the point about going the high road
[28:29] in New Hampshire by saying I'm not going
[28:31] to discuss this and then coming down and
[28:32] and going right directly in at Bill Bill
[28:36] Clinton's soft underbelly on this
[28:37] military service question I think does
[28:39] raise questions about just how how
[28:41] consistent he has been on the offensive.
[28:43] I think K's best bet uh was to go to
[28:46] Illinois to Michigan and make this Bill
[28:50] make Bill Clinton's home home territory.
[28:52] this is his home field down south and
[28:54] say in Illinois, Michigan, look, uh, any
[28:56] Democrat to be elected president of
[28:57] United States has to carry the big
[28:59] industrial states. He had to get, other
[29:00] words, he has to get the test out in
[29:01] front of him rather than try to play
[29:03] catch-up ball down south.
[29:04] >> We're we're in a situation, Roger, where
[29:05] Sus is in a must-win in Maryland. Uh,
[29:08] Clinton's in a must-win in Georgia this
[29:10] next Tuesday. In Colorado, the third
[29:12] state to hold a primary, Sus is now
[29:14] slightly ahead. Uh, and that's it's
[29:16] gonna be that's going to be a contested
[29:18] contest. But you see Bob Car's in a
[29:20] situation where he's not he's not at
[29:21] this time in a position to win any one
[29:23] of those three. He's got to do in order
[29:25] to get some money for his campaign. He's
[29:26] not showing ads in the South very much
[29:28] right now because he's almost out of
[29:29] money. In order to get some money pumped
[29:31] back into this campaign after winning in
[29:32] South Dakota, as he did so handsomely
[29:34] this week, he's got to come in second in
[29:35] a couple of these things to get the
[29:36] money flowing again so he can get to
[29:38] Illinois and Michigan.
[29:39] >> And I think right about that.
[29:40] >> Either one of you want to say a word
[29:42] about Harkin or Brown or just keep
[29:44] going. No, no. Tom, I mean, Tom Harkin,
[29:46] uh, you know, he's a spunky guy. He he
[29:49] doesn't want to get out of the race, but
[29:51] anytime you hear a fellow say, "We're
[29:53] going to cut back our operations to go
[29:54] lean and mean and target our
[29:56] opportunities," it's usually a halfway
[29:59] house to to closing the whole thing
[30:00] down.
[30:01] >> Yeah. One quick thing on that, excuse
[30:02] me.
[30:02] >> And and when the the other line that you
[30:04] hear over and over again is uh reports
[30:07] of our our demise are greatly
[30:09] exaggerated. when they start quoting
[30:10] Mark Twain, it's a it's a pretty good
[30:12] sign that the campaign is in a little
[30:14] bit of trouble.
[30:14] >> David
[30:15] >> Harkin and Brown, even though they're
[30:17] hurting, could possibly take away some
[30:19] of the black vote that Bill Clinton very
[30:20] much needs in the South. And that's one
[30:22] of the another reason why this Jesse
[30:23] Jackson thing is dangerous for Bill
[30:24] Clinton because Bill Clinton very much
[30:26] needs that core vote in the South.
[30:28] >> Let me let's we need to go to
[30:29] Republicans. Give me give me a quick
[30:30] thumbnail of this past week on a
[30:32] Republican campaign uh week.
[30:37] Roger, we ended up ended up a Republican
[30:38] week with blood on the floor. The
[30:40] candidates candidates diminished in
[30:42] stature and a growing fear in the
[30:43] Republican party. As they said in 1988,
[30:45] the Democrats won't be able to nominate
[30:47] anybody and the Republicans will
[30:48] nominate Bush and they'll lose.
[30:50] >> Well, there's an old max in politics.
[30:52] You can't beat somebody with nobody. In
[30:53] South Dakota, we almost had that uh
[30:55] impeached this past Tuesday where uh
[30:59] nobody uncommitted got almost a third of
[31:01] the vote against the president of the
[31:02] United States. Uh, of course,
[31:04] uncommitted has always been a big
[31:05] favorite on the press bus, so maybe
[31:06] that's the reason he did so well. But I
[31:08] mean, it's it's a devastating rebuke of
[31:10] the president.
[31:10] >> All right, let's take a look now at uh
[31:12] at the Republican thrust and counter
[31:14] thrust this week. It was an exchange of
[31:15] campaign barbs and also television
[31:17] commercials.
[31:19] >> Pat Buchanan is down here in Georgia and
[31:22] going around the South masquerading as a
[31:24] true conservative. Um, a true
[31:26] conservative would have supported
[31:28] President George Bush in the Persian
[31:30] Gulf War. Uh if you look at Pat
[31:33] Buchanan, he has embraced the foreign
[31:36] policy of George McGovern. Uh his policy
[31:39] toward the Middle East is very much like
[31:40] Jesse Jackson and he has embraced the
[31:42] the trade policies of Dick Dick Gart.
[31:45] But that is not being a true
[31:46] conservative.
[31:47] >> Dan Quail says I'm not qualified to be
[31:49] president of the United States. How
[31:51] would he know?
[31:56] >> You know, I'm not going to go after Mr.
[31:58] Quail for a variety of reasons. one, I
[32:01] don't want to be charged with child
[32:02] abuse.
[32:05] >> And secondly, I think Mr. Quail is
[32:08] really an accessory after the fact and
[32:11] the uh and the economic disaster, which
[32:15] is the responsibility of his boss,
[32:17] George Bush. When Pat Buchanan opposed
[32:21] Desert Storm, it was a disappointment to
[32:23] all military people, a disappointment to
[32:26] all Americans who supported the Gulf
[32:28] War. and I took it personally. I served
[32:31] with many of the Marines who fought in
[32:33] Desert Storm. The last thing we need in
[32:36] the White House is an isolationist like
[32:38] Pat Buchanan. If he doesn't think
[32:40] America should lead the world, how can
[32:42] we trust him to lead America?
[32:49] In the last 3 years, the Bush
[32:51] administration has invested our tax
[32:53] dollars in pornographic and blasphemous
[32:55] art too shocking to show. This so-called
[32:58] art has glorified homosexuality,
[33:01] exploited children, and perverted the
[33:03] image of Jesus Christ. Even after good
[33:06] people protested, Bush continued to fund
[33:09] this kind of art. Send Bush a message.
[33:12] We need a leader who will fight for what
[33:14] we believe in. Vote Pat Buchanan for
[33:16] president.
[33:18] >> David, was that ad we just saw below the
[33:20] belt, so to speak?
[33:24] >> That was your choice of words, Roger,
[33:25] not mine. Well, what was it a was it a
[33:28] lowb blow?
[33:29] >> I I well I think it was I also think it
[33:32] may backfire on Pat Buchanan. The the
[33:34] word out of folks in the south is
[33:35] including some of the pollsters down
[33:36] there is that that it is so graphic and
[33:40] um although Pat Buchanan is quite proud
[33:41] of has made that clear on on the
[33:43] campaign bust in the last 24 hours um
[33:46] people feel it just went too far. And I
[33:48] I uh Pat is doing well in Georgia
[33:50] though. We have to let's let's face that
[33:52] basic fact. What what is the Bush
[33:54] campaign doing to counter that uh other
[33:57] than firing John Fronmire the the arts
[34:00] commission chairman?
[34:01] >> Well, they they fired you know Frmier
[34:03] was going to be relieved of his job.
[34:05] They you know when Pat Buchanan took
[34:07] went on the attack last week within 24
[34:09] hours they fired him. That was by my lik
[34:11] sign of weakness not strength on the
[34:12] part of the Bush White House. But I
[34:13] think Pat Buchanan, you have to say Pat
[34:15] Buchanan has accomplished one of the
[34:16] goals the conservatives wanted in this
[34:18] campaign and that was to to draw the
[34:20] Bush administration to the right. We saw
[34:22] that in the Frone Meer firing. Um the
[34:25] Bush the president's tough stand about
[34:27] vetoing the bill that the tax bill that
[34:28] the Democrats are fashioning on Capitol
[34:30] Hill. Uh in addition, I think that the
[34:32] White House is very soon uh going to go
[34:35] into the courts and test the line item
[34:36] veto. Remember, this has been something
[34:38] the conservatives wanted for a long
[34:39] time. They they first of all got a vote
[34:41] in the in in the Congress against the
[34:43] line item veto. Now they're going to
[34:44] say, "Okay, let's make a test case of
[34:46] it." This is something Bob Dole was
[34:47] calling for back in 1988, but the White
[34:49] House has resisted it. Now the
[34:51] president's going to do it.
[34:52] >> Mark, the president's been saying he's
[34:54] three out of three. I guess he could say
[34:56] four out of four. New Hampshire, Maine,
[34:57] Iowa, South Dakota. Does that ring true
[34:59] to you?
[35:00] >> I know it doesn't. Roger. The the uh the
[35:02] president is in trouble. They they keep
[35:04] saying a win is a win is a win. When you
[35:06] get Pat, you say Pat Buchanan did well
[35:09] in New Hampshire cuz he spent $2 million
[35:11] 10 weeks. Uh and there were six
[35:14] Democrats kicking George Bush every day
[35:16] on television. Uh and he got 37%. You
[35:19] got uncommitted got almost a third in
[35:21] South Dakota. So there's trouble. South
[35:23] Dakota doesn't have the economic
[35:24] problems that uh not does not Georgia. I
[35:28] mean if Pat Buchanan is approaching a
[35:30] third uh 40% down there and it isn't
[35:33] good for the president. What we're
[35:34] seeing is that we're not seeing any more
[35:36] kinder gentler Pat that we saw up in New
[35:38] Hampshire. This is a take no prisoners
[35:40] uh go right after him. And George Bush
[35:42] is hardressed to complain about negative
[35:45] commercials based upon his 1988
[35:47] campaign. It's a little bit like Henry
[35:48] VII complained about multiple wives. And
[35:51] I I I would have to say this about about
[35:53] the Bushbot with PX Kelly, the former
[35:56] common of the Marine Canal Washington
[35:58] lobbyist. And that is that uh the war
[36:02] doesn't cut as an issue uh the way it
[36:04] did. Why not?
[36:05] >> Well, it's interesting. I think there
[36:06] there's two factors. One is the Bush
[36:08] strategy has been pretty obvious from
[36:10] the beginning is I won the war and the
[36:11] other guy's a bum whether the other guy
[36:12] happens to be because you can't really
[36:14] point to great triumphs in the past four
[36:16] years. And the reality is that since the
[36:19] end of the war, uh, all attention in
[36:23] this country has been focused
[36:24] domestically. Uh, we don't have a bogey
[36:27] man anymore internationally since the
[36:28] end of the cold war. And the a nation's
[36:30] attention has returned to the homeront.
[36:32] And in a strange way, George Bush's very
[36:34] success in the Persian Gulf, being
[36:36] resolute, being forceful, setting out
[36:39] his timetable, achieving it in a in a
[36:41] compressed period of time works against
[36:42] him domestically. that he hasn't been
[36:44] able to do the same thing sort of
[36:46] bothers people and wonder whether in
[36:47] fact he's really engaged domestically.
[36:49] >> Well, I would just add to that Mark. It
[36:50] it is it did not cut in New Hampshire. I
[36:52] think Mark is absolutely right about
[36:53] that. I think it may cut in some the
[36:55] Persian Gulf War may cut in the
[36:56] president's favor. There's no question
[36:58] that the White House will use that
[37:00] unmercifully if Bill Clinton's the
[37:02] nominee of the Democratic party. They're
[37:04] going to go straight at him with that
[37:05] question. And I think under those kind
[37:07] of circumstances, Mark,
[37:09] >> yes. because of because of his on
[37:10] they'll take the Vietnam war record then
[37:12] they'll take the Bush war record and
[37:13] they'll take the Persian Gulf War etc.
[37:15] But here the importance of what's
[37:16] happening right now though Roger I think
[37:18] from the president's point of view is if
[37:19] Pep beginning can get 40%
[37:21] >> in Georgia next week if he can draw some
[37:23] more blood that keeps him alive to go
[37:25] into the uh into the primaries on Super
[37:27] Tuesday the following Tuesday uh and
[37:29] then he's now spotted the state of
[37:31] Louisiana as a possible state where he
[37:32] can win.
[37:33] >> Now if he can do that that keeps him
[37:35] alive to get into a state like Michigan
[37:37] where there's a lot of unhappiness. Of
[37:38] course, a GM decision this week, uh, you
[37:40] know, relie, you know, they closed down
[37:41] the automobile plant and general motors.
[37:43] There's a lot of old Wallace voters up
[37:44] there in Michigan, you know. So, the
[37:46] point for Patrick Canon is to stay in
[37:48] this race through California. The the
[37:50] longer he stays in, his stature is
[37:51] growing.
[37:52] >> One final question, sorry. Uh, what is
[37:54] George Bush's problem with Ronald
[37:56] Reagan? No photo op out there in
[37:57] California. They wrapped the fence like
[37:59] they'd hired Cristo to drape it in brown
[38:02] paper so you couldn't see what was going
[38:03] on. David, David knows both men a lot
[38:06] better than I do, but I mean it
[38:08] certainly was not a ringing endorsement.
[38:09] Just one little quick aside, the the
[38:11] draft problems of Bill Clinton are
[38:13] greater problem in the fall, David's
[38:14] right, than they are in a Democratic
[38:15] primary. What What are the problems?
[38:17] >> Well,
[38:17] >> it's got to be quick. I I I think the
[38:19] truth is that Mrs. Reagan is not happy
[38:21] with the way the Reagans have been have
[38:22] been treated and there is some feed on
[38:24] the part of the conservatives that the
[38:25] Reagan legacy has been tarnished during
[38:27] the Bush years. I do think that Ronald
[38:29] Reagan will support George Bush very
[38:30] vigorously in the fall. Thank you, David
[38:32] Gurgen, US News and Mark Shields,
[38:34] syndicated columnist.
[38:35] >> Thank you very much.
[38:35] >> Thank you. My pleasure.
[38:37] >> Thanks, Roger. And thank you for five
[38:39] years of superb work for the NewsHour as
[38:42] you leave regular work with us to take
[38:44] up your new post at Princeton
[38:46] University. Our warm good wishes go with
[38:48] you. Still ahead on the NewsHour
[38:50] tonight, Iraq's Kurds a year after their
[38:53] rebellion.
[39:03] Next tonight, an update on the Kurdish
[39:05] people of Iraq. A year ago, their
[39:07] unsuccessful rebellion against Saddam
[39:09] Hussein's government turned into a drama
[39:11] that captured the attention of the world
[39:13] as thousands became refugees. Many of
[39:16] the Iraqi Kurds now live in an
[39:18] internationally protected zone in
[39:20] northern Iraq above the 36th parallel.
[39:23] In addition, they've taken control of
[39:25] some territories south of that line. How
[39:27] long protection of the Kurds will last
[39:29] and how long they'll receive
[39:31] international aid is in question. Our
[39:34] coverage begins with a report from
[39:35] Kurdistan. The correspondent is William
[39:37] Da of Time magazine.
[39:42] >> Hundreds of thousands of Kurds have now
[39:44] moved back into camps like this one,
[39:46] effectively remaining refugees inside
[39:49] their own country.
[39:50] Many are unable to go back to their
[39:52] homes because their villages are still
[39:54] occupied by Iraqi troops. Despite the
[39:57] bitter cold in the last few weeks and
[39:59] what may be the worst winter to hit this
[40:01] area in 40 years, spirits are high here.
[40:05] The reason, a fierce uprising by Kurds
[40:07] last October managed to drive out the
[40:10] last remnants of Saddam's
[40:11] administration. Iraqi troops hastily
[40:14] pulled back to defensive positions just
[40:16] outside Kurdish lines. The retreat
[40:19] effectively cut Kurdistan off from the
[40:21] rest of Iraq and it left the Kurds in de
[40:24] facto control of their own territory.
[40:34] >> Although not officially recognized,
[40:36] Kurdistan is fast becoming at least a
[40:38] temporary reality. Paralyzed by the
[40:41] threat of US retaliation, Saddam had
[40:44] hoped to starve the Kurds out by
[40:45] imposing an economic blockade. The
[40:48] blockade is hurting financially, but no
[40:50] one seems ready to give in yet. As one
[40:53] Kurdish leader here puts it, Kurds would
[40:56] rather eat stones and lose their freedom
[40:58] now.
[41:02] Sulmania, the principal town in the
[41:04] area. Even though Kurdistan is suffering
[41:07] from both UN sanctions and Saddam's
[41:09] blockade, the market is full. A few
[41:12] months ago, Saddam ordered Kurdistan's
[41:14] government employees to move south back
[41:16] to government controlled territory. 75%
[41:20] refused and stayed behind to work with
[41:22] the Kurdish National Front, a loose
[41:24] alliance of eight Kurdish parties. The
[41:27] absence of Iraqi troops has made it
[41:29] possible for Western newsmen to see for
[41:31] the first time the full impact of
[41:33] Saddam's policy.
[41:38] This is a town of Kaladiza. It once
[41:41] housed about 50,000 people. The town was
[41:44] obliterated by Iraqi soldiers in less
[41:46] than two hours using charges of
[41:48] dynamite. Kaladiza's destruction was
[41:51] part of a program called the onfall or
[41:53] spoils of war. Under the program, which
[41:56] began towards the end of the Iran Iraq
[41:58] war in 1988, some 4,200 Kurdish towns
[42:02] and villages were destroyed.
[42:05] 180,000 people disappeared.
[42:12] This is a town of Halabja, which also
[42:14] had a population of over 50,000 people.
[42:18] The people living in Halabja still
[42:20] recalled a day in March 1988 when waves
[42:23] of Iraqi planes dropped mustard and
[42:25] nerve gas on the town center. Iraqi
[42:28] troops were afraid to come into the town
[42:30] afterwards because of the chemical
[42:32] weapons. So, they finished its
[42:33] destruction using artillery at a
[42:35] distance. Halabja was our Hiroshima
[42:39] occurred says sadly. Yet the remarkable
[42:41] thing is that people have moved back
[42:43] into the city and are slowly rebuilding
[42:46] it.
[42:48] The Iraqi secret police headquarters in
[42:51] Silamania.
[42:52] The symbol is an eye imposed over the
[42:54] map of Iraq. 10 to 20 people were kept
[42:58] locked in narrow cells like this. When
[43:01] Kurds finally captured this prison after
[43:03] a 36-hour pitch battle last October,
[43:06] they found prisoners hanging dead from
[43:08] the stairway railings. One UN official
[43:11] who went into the prison just after it
[43:13] was liberated said it was terrifying to
[43:15] think that a human being could do these
[43:17] things to another human being. This room
[43:20] had padded walls to dampen the screams.
[43:24] Prisoners were hung by handcuffs from
[43:26] these hooks welded to this pipe in the
[43:28] ceiling. Then they were beaten, burned
[43:31] with cigarettes, and tortured with
[43:32] electric shocks.
[43:35] Today, the prison has been taken over by
[43:37] refugees looking for shelter.
[43:40] The Kurds have been able to survive in
[43:42] spite of Saddam's blockade, largely
[43:44] because of help from the United Nations
[43:46] High Commissioner for Refugees. The
[43:49] UNHCR runs convoys of trucks carrying
[43:52] supplies to remote areas. UNHCR officers
[43:55] and other relief organizations were able
[43:58] to provide essential ingredients needed
[44:00] to build some 65,000 houses.
[44:07] >> The Kurds are not waiting for
[44:09] international guarantees in order to
[44:11] rebuild their lives. Whether they have
[44:13] much of a chance of keeping Saddam at a
[44:15] distance or not, they're determined to
[44:17] try. In a few weeks, the Kurdish front
[44:20] plans to hold the area's first free
[44:22] elections to choose a parliament. The
[44:24] Kurds realize that genuine democratic
[44:27] elections will give them a legitimacy
[44:28] that few of their neighbors possess.
[44:34] Another card the Kurds have up their
[44:36] sleeve is this truck traffic which
[44:38] passes through Kurdish held territory.
[44:40] The trucks bring food to Iraq. And on
[44:42] their return trip, they carry gasoline
[44:44] and diesel fuel in huge metal tanks
[44:46] strapped to their chassis. A truck can
[44:49] carry a few thousand gallons of oil.
[44:51] 1,000 to 2,000 trucks can cross the
[44:54] border a day, moving up to a half
[44:56] million gallons of oil barred from sale
[44:58] by the UN. Everyone knows that it's a
[45:01] flagrant violation of UN sanctions. But
[45:04] the trucks keep coming anyway. The Kurds
[45:07] let the traffic go through because it
[45:09] gives them a little bit of leverage in
[45:10] dealing with Saddam.
[45:15] >> Ultimately though, whether the 3.8
[45:18] million people in Iraqi Kurdistan can
[45:20] hold out will depend on how much
[45:22] attention they get from the West. To
[45:24] make it, they'll need the UN to continue
[45:26] providing support, and they'll need food
[45:29] and continued US air power to guarantee
[45:31] that Saddam does not try to mount
[45:33] another frontal attack. At least for the
[45:35] moment, even Saddam seems ready to let
[45:37] the Kurds alone, if only because Saddam
[45:40] is convinced that the US may actually
[45:42] try to finish the job it left undone at
[45:44] the end of the Gulf War. All of that
[45:47] spells an uneasy truce, at least for the
[45:49] time being. No one here doubts though
[45:51] that once he has an opening, Saddam will
[45:54] come back for revenge.
[45:57] >> That report from William Da of Time
[45:59] magazine. Now we turn to two guests,
[46:01] both of whom recently returned from
[46:03] Iraq's Kurdistan. Andrew Whitley is the
[46:05] executive director of Middle East Watch,
[46:07] a human rights monitoring group based in
[46:09] New York. Dr. Naj Malden Karim is
[46:12] president of the Kurdish National
[46:13] Congress, a group which represents Kurds
[46:16] of diverse nationalities in the US and
[46:18] Canada. Dr. Karim, watching that report,
[46:21] one gets a sense of the Kurds marking
[46:24] time, just waiting. What are they
[46:26] waiting for?
[46:27] Well, uh, the Kurds are, uh, essentially
[46:30] in a dilemma at this stage. Uh, uh,
[46:32] negotiation with the government of
[46:34] Baghdad has been frozen. Uh, and the
[46:36] Kurds are anxiously waiting, uh, to know
[46:40] what the exact intention of the United
[46:43] States and the allies are and also what
[46:45] the exact in intention of the Turks are.
[46:48] uh the the international force that's in
[46:52] Turkey, the allied forces that's based
[46:54] in Turkey, their uh time is going to
[46:57] expire in June and that's the Kurds are
[47:00] facing a great anxiety as far as that
[47:02] part is concerned.
[47:03] >> Mr. Whitley, what do you see happening
[47:05] when the UN forces pull out of Iraq of
[47:09] Kurdistan, which they're scheduled to do
[47:11] now at the end of June? Well, the UN
[47:13] officials say privately they hope
[47:15] against hope that somehow they're going
[47:17] to be able to stay on longer. And the UN
[47:19] special reporator in Iraq, that's the
[47:21] envoy who was sent by the secretary
[47:22] general to look into the human rights
[47:24] record, has made a recommendation that
[47:26] human rights monitors be sent to the
[47:27] area. That's being debated in Geneva at
[47:29] the moment. So they hope that when the
[47:31] guards pull out that somehow some other
[47:32] people, some light UN presence will
[47:35] somehow continue. Would that require
[47:37] another decision of the security council
[47:38] for the UN uh presence, the uh high
[47:41] commissioner for refugees forces to stay
[47:43] there or was that decided in Geneva?
[47:46] >> For the monitors to go, that's decided
[47:47] in Geneva. For the UNHCR people, that
[47:50] would certainly would have to be decided
[47:51] by the security council and for a
[47:53] bilateral agreement between Baghdad and
[47:55] the UN. There's a memorandum of
[47:57] understanding which is due to expire on
[47:59] June the 30th. And Iraq certainly
[48:00] doesn't want to renew it. It's up to
[48:02] them.
[48:03] >> Uh Dr. Kareem, are you and your friends
[48:06] going to try and demand that the UN
[48:08] forces stay? Is that is that going to be
[48:10] your immediate object?
[48:11] >> Uh that's one of our immediate objects.
[48:14] The other objects that we are trying to
[48:17] accomplish are uh that the protection
[48:20] that the Kurds have now is down to
[48:23] parallel 36 which excludes about 40% of
[48:26] Iraqi Kurdistan uh with the major cities
[48:28] of Kirk and Sman excluded from uh these
[48:32] areas.
[48:33] uh there is a systematic violation of UN
[48:37] resolution 688 regarding protection of
[48:39] the Koods. There are about 800,000 Koods
[48:42] from those areas that are displaced.
[48:44] They are not allowed to return their
[48:46] homes. And we are asking the United
[48:48] Nations and the allied countries to take
[48:51] the leadership in forcing the 688
[48:54] resolution with the same vigor that they
[48:56] are going after Iraqi uh weapons of mass
[49:00] destruction. I'll come back to the
[49:01] weapons question in a moment because
[49:03] that's reached a uh a bit of a head
[49:05] today as well. Um are the western
[49:07] countries listening, the United States
[49:09] and Britain and the others who uh
[49:11] provided so much aid uh when the Kurds
[49:14] were all refugees in the mountains. Are
[49:16] they listening now to the pleas from
[49:18] people like Mr. Karim?
[49:20] >> Britain is certainly listening. Masoud
[49:21] Bazani, the leader of the major Kurdish
[49:23] party, the KDP, met with Prime Minister
[49:26] Major just a couple of days ago and
[49:28] Britain has been giving quite a high
[49:29] profile to the issue of the Kurds. I
[49:31] think that they will be urging the
[49:32] United States behind the scenes to
[49:34] continue the agreement which keeps US
[49:37] forces and allied forces generally in
[49:39] Turkey after the end of June.
[49:40] >> Uhhuh. Dr. Karim, what specifically do
[49:42] you want the United States to do? Yeah,
[49:45] >> we're asking the United States for uh uh
[49:47] continued presence uh of the allied
[49:50] troops in Turkey and inside Iraqi
[49:53] Kurdistan for protection of the Kuds.
[49:55] We're asking the United States to push
[49:57] through the United Nations for a
[49:59] resolution to mo to have the protection
[50:02] of the Kuds move beyond parallel 36 to
[50:05] include all Iraqi Kurdistan
[50:07] >> meaning move it south. Move that line
[50:09] south.
[50:09] >> Yes. To parallel 34. We're also asking
[50:12] for clear political support for the
[50:14] Kurdish uh aspirations. Uh there is an
[50:17] upcoming election in Kurdistan in April
[50:20] and this election is uh is uh forced
[50:24] upon the Kurds because there is a vacuum
[50:26] in Kurdistan. The government of Iraq has
[50:28] abdicated its responsibilities towards
[50:31] the Kurds and towards the region. No
[50:33] salaries are being paid uh to the
[50:36] people. There is a strict economic
[50:38] embargo. The prices have uh uh
[50:41] quadrupled in the last two months since
[50:43] this embargo has been imposed.
[50:46] There is no fuel, no medicine. Uh there
[50:49] is ever presence present danger that the
[50:53] government forces will attack the Kurds
[50:55] again. Actually in certain areas that we
[50:57] visited in Sam Chamal and KEI, you could
[50:59] see you could even see the Iraqi tanks
[51:03] just uh about couple of hundred meters
[51:07] away from the areas where the Koods
[51:08] control them. And there is really no uh
[51:11] way uh to to defend themselves against
[51:14] these forces should the UN the
[51:18] international forces decide to withdraw
[51:20] the protection. Do you think that um
[51:23] that the United States still um is um is
[51:27] is hesitating in giving you the full
[51:29] support you want because the Bush
[51:31] administration still believes that any
[51:34] government which succeeds Saddam Hussein
[51:36] should be a coalition of Kurds and
[51:40] Sunnis and Shiites and not a federal
[51:43] state with broken up broken up into
[51:45] ethnically and religiously. Do you think
[51:47] that is still the US policy which it
[51:49] certainly was? Well, the US uh
[51:52] >> uh you know, I believe that uh you may
[51:55] you're right in in that regard as far as
[51:57] the US policy, but I uh I think uh they
[52:01] could answer that question better.
[52:02] However, I want to make the point that
[52:04] the Kurds are asking for their rights
[52:07] within Iraq. A federated Iraq doesn't
[52:10] mean a separate independent Kurdistan. A
[52:12] federated Iraq still leaves Iraq intact.
[52:15] And we believe that a federated Iraq
[52:17] with a pluralistic government that
[52:20] allows everybody free expression is less
[52:24] of a danger to the region and to Iraq
[52:27] itself than a government controlled by
[52:29] Saddam Hussein which can be threat to
[52:31] everybody including Iraq's neighbors.
[52:33] >> How do you read American policy at the
[52:35] moment?
[52:35] >> I think American policy is concerned to
[52:38] keep Saddam Hussein off balance to keep
[52:40] the pressure on him to keep him
[52:41] guessing. I think ultimately though that
[52:44] they will not leave the Kurds in the
[52:45] lurch. I think for domestic political
[52:47] reasons that President Bush cannot be
[52:48] seen to be abandoning the Kurds on June
[52:50] the 30th and so probably there will be
[52:52] some intensive pressure on the Turks to
[52:54] renew that military agreement to allow
[52:55] th those air force planes to continue
[52:57] over flying northern Iraq.
[53:00] Let's turn to the um confrontation that
[53:02] Saddam seems to be headed for with the
[53:05] Security Council by saying no today to
[53:08] apparently saying no to the demand that
[53:11] he comply with the ceasefire resolutions
[53:14] and destroy his ballistic missiles. How
[53:17] does that resistance by Saddam and this
[53:20] confrontation with the Security Council
[53:22] affect the Kurdish situation? It affects
[53:24] it only in so far as he is obviously
[53:28] interested in keeping a certain
[53:29] distance. He wants to be able to make
[53:32] sure that he's able to build his
[53:33] domestic political base. He's not trying
[53:35] to get himself into a position in which
[53:37] he's boxed in. He wants to be able to
[53:40] have a certain freedom of of maneuver.
[53:42] And I think as far as the Kurds are
[53:43] concerned, he'd like simply to be able
[53:45] to keep the squeeze on them, keep this
[53:47] economic blockade on that area, not do
[53:49] anything provocative, but at the same
[53:50] time be able to rebuild his own domestic
[53:52] base. And he has to do that by
[53:54] continuing to be resisting the United
[53:55] Nations.
[53:57] >> Why? In order to show that he's strong
[53:59] enough to his own people or his own
[54:01] supporters to do that. How do you read
[54:02] that, Dr. Karim? How does the Saddam's
[54:05] resistance of the Security Council to
[54:07] the Security Council affect your
[54:09] people's situation?
[54:10] >> Uh well uh I agree with what Mr. Whitley
[54:15] had said, but I also want to add that as
[54:17] far as Saddan's aim is uh to show the
[54:21] Iraqi people that he's strong and to
[54:23] show the Kurdish people that he's strong
[54:25] and can deal with them because if he
[54:27] could stand up to the United Nations and
[54:29] the United States, uh he could certainly
[54:31] stand up to the Kurds. And Saddam is
[54:33] playing very hard and trying very hard
[54:36] to divide the uh the ranks among the
[54:38] Kurds themselves so he can succeed with
[54:40] his plans to force a watered down
[54:43] version uh autonomy on the Kurds uh
[54:46] excluding about 40% of Kurdistan uh from
[54:50] uh from where the Kurds uh from from
[54:53] where real Kurdistan is.
[54:55] >> Let me ask you each quickly um the Bush
[54:57] administration has been quite open with
[54:59] its rhetoric about warnings to Saddam.
[55:01] Do you have the sense with all your
[55:03] contacts that some form of action is in
[55:06] preparation?
[55:07] >> I think that they're trying to use the
[55:09] Saudis as their surrogates in the area.
[55:11] I think they're trying to bring the
[55:12] different um elements of the Iraqi
[55:14] opposition together, both in an open and
[55:16] a covert way through Saudi Arabia and to
[55:19] be able to let them take the lead in the
[55:20] area. I didn't see any evidence of any
[55:22] covert action being planned or any signs
[55:24] of any exceptional military activity
[55:26] when I was there last week, but I do
[55:28] think that the Kurds are planning to
[55:29] stay there after June the 30th. and
[55:31] they're banking on the fact that
[55:32] something will turn up.
[55:34] >> Dr. Karim, do your people think that
[55:35] something is in the works against
[55:37] Saddam?
[55:37] >> Uh well, during our uh journey to
[55:40] Kurdistan and our contact with the
[55:42] Kurdish leadership, uh we don't see any
[55:45] serious effort actually that's aimed
[55:48] towards the Kurds. Uh and as far as uh
[55:51] the intention of the US, whether there's
[55:53] a covert action or not, of course, we're
[55:55] uh not aware of that as you might know,
[55:59] of course. But um
[56:01] >> can you can you finish your thought very
[56:03] quickly? We have to go.
[56:04] >> Uh as far as the intention of the US
[56:06] government is concerned, we believe that
[56:08] the US government should pay more
[56:10] attention to the Kurdish leadership and
[56:12] the Kurdish people in Iraq because the
[56:14] most organized uh group of people in
[56:17] Iraq are the Kurds and without the
[56:19] Kurds, nothing can be accomplished
[56:20] against Saddam.
[56:21] >> Thank you very much Dr. Karim and Mr.
[56:23] Whitley.
[56:27] Again,
[56:31] the main stories of this Friday. Iraq
[56:34] defied a United Nations deadline for the
[56:36] destruction of some Scud missile
[56:38] facilities. Tonight, the Security
[56:40] Council met in emergency session and
[56:43] condemned Iraq's failure to comply with
[56:45] its demands. It called on Iraq to send a
[56:48] delegation to New York immediately to
[56:50] meet with the council. That's our
[56:52] NewsHour for tonight. We'll be back
[56:54] Monday night. I'm Judy Woodruff. Thank
[56:56] you and have a good weekend.
[56:57] >> Funding for the McNeel Aaron NewsHour
[56:59] has been provided by PepsiCo.