NBC News - Iraq War - 2003-03-21 - 12 midnight (E)

Channel: malgent

Transcript

Language: English (original, YouTube automatic captions)

[0:01] and he insists he hasn't been silenced

[0:05] >> yet.

[0:07] As we mentioned, the ground invasion of

[0:10] Iraq has begun in force. Joining us now,

[0:12] Vice Admiral Dennis McInn, NBC News

[0:15] military analyst. And Admiral, let's

[0:17] start with what we know and what we

[0:18] don't know about this ground invasion.

[0:19] >> I think that's really key, John, because

[0:21] what we do know is what we are getting

[0:23] from uh people on the ground in some

[0:25] television cameras up here in the

[0:27] vicinity of Baghdad. mostly the effects

[0:29] but not in a detailed way of some of

[0:31] those strikes by tomahawk missiles and

[0:33] manned aircraft. What we know is down

[0:36] along the border of Kuwait and Iraq uh

[0:40] also reported by people on the ground

[0:42] embedded uh journalists and also from uh

[0:45] observations from camera gear down

[0:47] there. What we don't know is what's

[0:50] going on out here in the western part of

[0:51] Iraq, what is happening inside the city

[0:54] limits, any other types of uh of special

[0:57] operations force activities. We've got

[0:59] to remember that there are basically

[1:01] four campaigns going on. There's a

[1:03] special operations campaign in which

[1:05] covertness is absolutely absolutely

[1:08] essential to success. There's an air

[1:10] campaign which we've talked about quite

[1:11] a lot. the ground campaign which is

[1:13] getting underway apparently very

[1:15] successful down here in the southern

[1:17] part of Iraq and then finally the

[1:19] psychological operations campaign. Well,

[1:21] let's talk about the southern part of

[1:22] Iraq there. Are you surprised by the

[1:24] lack of Iraqi opposition?

[1:26] >> I'm really not. I don't think the key

[1:28] centers of gravity that the Iraqi regime

[1:31] such as they are which that still is

[1:33] uncertain are willing to defend down

[1:35] here. There's been a lot of discussion

[1:37] about the divisions within the various

[1:40] sections of Iraq and I believe that uh

[1:42] the expectation and appropriately so was

[1:45] that in the southern part of Iraq there

[1:47] would be uh the least amount of

[1:49] opposition.

[1:50] >> It is sounding again tonight like it's

[1:52] still a possibility that the US may have

[1:54] gotten Saddam Hussein. What do you make

[1:55] of all this? I think that it could be a

[1:58] possibility, but I think that the

[2:00] commander, General Franks, and his uh

[2:02] great team out there are going to go

[2:04] with the assumption that uh the campaign

[2:07] timelines need to proceed as planned.

[2:09] They need to seize opportunity as it

[2:11] presents itself in the southern part of

[2:13] Iraq, take as many key critical nodes,

[2:16] uh nodes of transportation, uh the city

[2:18] of Basra for example, communication, and

[2:21] then also to encounter whatever Iraqi

[2:24] resistance there may be. at the same

[2:26] time continuing the attacks against key

[2:29] leadership, command and control and

[2:30] communications up in the north.

[2:32] >> Seems to be going well.

[2:33] >> Absolutely. That's my assessment, John.

[2:35] >> All right, Admiral. Thanks very much.

[2:36] We'll talk a little later. Now, it

[2:38] became a household name during the last

[2:40] Gulf War, the Patriot Missile. At that

[2:43] time, it was a new and according to the

[2:45] Pentagon pinpoint accurate missile

[2:47] defense system, but it never quite lived

[2:49] up to its reputation. A new and improved

[2:52] version is back. Is it ready for round

[2:54] two? Here's Rob Stafford.

[3:00] >> These are the Patriots designed to shoot

[3:02] down and destroy incoming Iraqi missiles

[3:05] which might be carrying chemical or

[3:07] biological agents. And today when Saddam

[3:10] Hussein fired at US troops in Kuwait,

[3:13] the Patriots were called to action. US

[3:15] officials say they hit their targets.

[3:18] >> Two missiles have landed in Kuwait this

[3:20] morning.

[3:21] >> There Scott. Scott. Okay, we see the

[3:23] Scud

[3:24] >> in the last Gulf War. At first, the

[3:26] Patriot was touted as a stunning

[3:28] success.

[3:29] >> 42 Scuds engaged, 41 intercepted.

[3:34] >> You have to rebuild the house.

[3:36] >> Others thought it was not the defender

[3:37] the government hoped it would be. It

[3:39] turned out the Patriot often exploded

[3:42] without hitting its target. It didn't

[3:44] stop missiles bound for Israel. And it

[3:46] was a patriot that failed to stop the

[3:48] incoming Scud that hit this army

[3:50] barracks, killing 28 American soldiers.

[3:53] Phil Coyle is the former assistant

[3:55] secretary of defense. He headed all

[3:57] Pentagon weapons testing from 1994 to

[4:00] 2001. He says the new Patriot, which has

[4:03] undergone a massive redesign, is better.

[4:05] >> The latest version of of the Patriot,

[4:08] uh, so-called PAC 3, is faster than the

[4:12] old Patriot. It's a very fast missile.

[4:14] Uh, it has better guidance and control

[4:16] systems than the old one did, and it has

[4:18] a wonderful radar, a very uh, special

[4:21] radar that has great range and

[4:23] resolution power.

[4:25] >> Coyle says in testing, the upgraded

[4:27] Patriots hit their targets 45% of the

[4:30] time, but they've never been used before

[4:32] in combat until now.

[4:34] >> The war uh, in Iraq came before the army

[4:38] had completed uh, the test program with

[4:41] real Scud missiles. How they continue to

[4:45] perform could mean the difference

[4:46] between life and death. Not only for the

[4:49] soldiers in the Gulf, but also for the

[4:51] people of Kuwait, Turkey, Saudi Arabia,

[4:54] Qatar, Bahrain, Israel, and Jordan.

[4:57] >> Even though the the Patriot isn't uh

[5:00] perfect, uh it will definitely be better

[5:03] than nothing.

[5:05] >> It's Rob Stafford. Now, the State

[5:07] Department got some welcome news from

[5:09] Turkey today, but is it too little too

[5:11] late? NBC News correspondent George

[5:13] Lewis is in Turkey with more on that

[5:15] story. George.

[5:19] >> John. Turkeykey's parliament approved

[5:21] the overflight rights that the US was

[5:24] looking for for its planes so that US

[5:26] planes operating off of carriers in the

[5:29] uh Mediterranean and out of Europe could

[5:32] fly directly over Turkey into northern

[5:34] Iraq. The question you raise whether

[5:36] it's too little too late uh remains to

[5:39] be seen. uh the uh US progress in Iraq

[5:42] has been so rapid. The question now is

[5:46] will the the approval by parliament of

[5:49] the Turkish airspace do much good? The

[5:51] the answer is probably yes because what

[5:54] the US needs to do is ferry large

[5:57] numbers of troops into northern Iraq

[5:58] once airfields are secured there so that

[6:01] it can keep the peace. Uh there's been a

[6:03] very tense situation in northern Iraq

[6:05] between the Turks and the Kurds. The US

[6:08] wants troops on the ground to kind of

[6:09] stabilize that situation. John,

[6:12] >> give me an an idea of what the the mood

[6:14] is in Turkey with regard to the United

[6:16] States. George, now

[6:21] >> we have been talking to a number of

[6:22] people uh around this town where we are

[6:25] in Diarbakur in eastern Turkey and in

[6:28] other cities and the mood is almost

[6:30] uniform. The Turks do not want war, but

[6:33] now that it's begun, they seem resigned

[6:35] to the fact that Turkey should

[6:37] participate. Turkey has been a long ally

[6:40] of the United States. A 50-year

[6:42] relationship in NATO. Uh the Turks feel

[6:45] that they need to go along with the US

[6:47] on this now that the war has begun. All

[6:50] right, NBC's George Lewis in Turkey.

[6:52] George, we'll get back to you a little

[6:53] later as well. We have word tonight

[6:56] about an al-Qaeda suspect and a

[6:58] worldwide alert. NBC's Pete Williams

[7:01] reports on that from Washington.

[7:05] >> As the police and National Guard fan out

[7:07] nationwide to protect potential terror

[7:09] targets, the FBI tonight is urgently

[7:11] seeking their help in finding a man

[7:13] believed to be a top al-Qaeda operative

[7:15] who could be in the US. He's identified

[7:17] as Adnan G. El Shukrit Juma, 27 years

[7:20] old, around 5 1/2 ft tall, speaks fluent

[7:23] English, and as Maddic, he uses an

[7:25] inhaler. Investigators believe he's

[7:27] another Muhammad Ata, the key planner in

[7:29] the 9/11 attacks. And even more

[7:32] worrisome, he's believed to be a trained

[7:33] pilot. One of his Arabic nicknames is

[7:36] Jafar the pilot. FBI agents today

[7:38] searched this house in Myiramar,

[7:40] Florida. Shukr Juma's last known

[7:42] address, questioning his parents. Agents

[7:44] believe he was in the United States

[7:46] after 9/11, but they don't know where he

[7:48] is now. His brother, Nidal, says Shukr

[7:51] Juma is no terrorist.

[7:52] >> Is he a pilot?

[7:54] >> No.

[7:54] >> No. Did he go to flight school here?

[7:57] >> No.

[7:58] >> Even so, captured al-Qaeda members have

[8:00] told US interrogators that Shukrit Juma

[8:02] would be central to the planning for any

[8:04] further terror attacks against Americans

[8:06] either here or overseas. In Arizona,

[8:09] meantime, extra security was deployed to

[8:11] the Palo Verde power plant near Phoenix,

[8:13] the nation's largest nuclear generator.

[8:16] A response, officials say, to a specific

[8:18] threat. It was obviously serious enough

[8:21] and deemed to be credible enough that

[8:23] we've got several the appropriate

[8:26] federal agencies investigating. Tonight,

[8:28] officials say that threat now appears

[8:30] less credible. In the Northeast today,

[8:32] police and National Guardsmen from three

[8:34] states rode commuter trains and subways

[8:36] into New York, concerned that mass

[8:38] transit could be a target.

[8:39] >> We have close to 4,000 New York State

[8:42] National Guard troops deployed

[8:44] everywhere from the subways of New York

[8:45] to the borders of Canada. In Los

[8:47] Angeles, Mayor James Han inspected the

[8:49] city's water supply where testing and

[8:51] security are both up.

[8:53] >> Hundreds of tests being performed. Make

[8:55] sure that if anything does contaminate

[8:57] the water supply, we know about it

[8:58] instantly.

[8:59] >> That was the south side of 108.

[9:01] >> Washington DC put its police officers on

[9:04] 12-hour shifts and signs went up from

[9:06] Homeland Security with a number to use

[9:08] for calling in tips. And nationwide,

[9:10] extra security was especially visible at

[9:12] airports. Traffic backed up for half an

[9:15] hour this morning at Seattle Tacoma as

[9:17] the National Guard searched cars, cities

[9:19] and states determined to prevent acts of

[9:22] terror.

[9:22] >> Well, that's great.

[9:23] >> Now, America's attack in Iraq is

[9:25] sparking outrage around the world.

[9:27] Today, French President Jacqu Shar

[9:29] warned that the conflict will have

[9:31] serious consequences for the future.

[9:34] Russia's president Vladimir Putin called

[9:37] it a big political mistake. Thousands

[9:40] demonstrated against the US decision to

[9:42] fight. And there's anger here at home.

[9:44] NBC's Rob Stafford again followed one

[9:47] man's experience as he made his feelings

[9:49] known.

[9:55] >> A cry for peace at a time of war.

[9:59] Throughout the day and across the

[10:01] country, thousands of anti-war

[10:03] demonstrators took to the streets.

[10:06] It finally hits home that this has

[10:07] started and that war is underway.

[10:09] >> In New York, under pouring rain, Max

[10:12] Yulenbeck was rallying his troops for a

[10:14] battle he seemingly lost. A student

[10:17] coordinator in the anti-war movement, he

[10:19] and others have spent months trying to

[10:21] prevent the strike on Iraq.

[10:23] >> Now that the war is here, what is the

[10:25] biggest way to protest?

[10:28] >> I think um what we have to continue

[10:30] doing and what we've been doing is we

[10:31] have to keep coming out on the streets.

[10:33] >> These are bilingual. Yeah.

[10:35] >> Planning today's protest started last

[10:37] night as the first missiles were

[10:39] launched.

[10:40] >> This is the headquarters of United for

[10:42] Peace and Justice, an organization that

[10:44] says it's coordinating hundreds of

[10:46] thousands of peace activists around the

[10:48] nation.

[10:49] >> If this happens tonight, if it looks

[10:50] like that, the bombs are going to start

[10:52] to drop this evening.

[10:53] >> As the hours ticked away towards the

[10:54] president's deadline last night, Max and

[10:57] other activists contemplated how best to

[10:59] respond to a war now imminently here.

[11:02] >> 40 protesters arrested in New York

[11:04] today. many more around the country. Is

[11:06] this upping the ante?

[11:07] >> Sure. I think it's definitely upping the

[11:09] ante and the ante will continue to be

[11:11] raised every single day from now on.

[11:14] >> Is it too little too late?

[11:16] >> It's never too little too late.

[11:18] >> Indeed, today over 500 protesters were

[11:20] arrested in San Francisco, 100 in

[11:22] Philadelphia, and around the country.

[11:25] Many skipped school,

[11:27] >> blocked office buildings in roads in

[11:29] civil disobedience.

[11:30] >> Uh not much leave the last 12 hours.

[11:32] Obviously,

[11:33] >> Max spent all night on the phone making

[11:35] sure all these people come today.

[11:37] >> Hey, listen. Have you gotten status on

[11:39] Time Square yet?

[11:40] >> And he's still on the phone.

[11:42] >> You know, it's a few hundred people.

[11:43] >> Max believes that the start of the war

[11:45] should spur Americans into more protest.

[11:48] >> How old are you?

[11:49] >> I'm 23 years old.

[11:50] >> What do you say to the 23-year-old

[11:52] American soldier who's putting his life

[11:54] on the line tonight?

[11:55] >> We're all Americans. We're all people. I

[11:58] don't think anybody wants to die

[11:59] unnecessarily. Um, I see this very much

[12:02] as fighting a fight for them. Um, if we

[12:05] were to stop this war, it would mean

[12:07] saving a lot of American lives.

[12:09] >> Is it unpatriotic to be protesting this

[12:12] war at a time when American soldiers are

[12:14] in harm's way?

[12:15] >> Certainly not. I think descent and

[12:16] demonstrating and voicing your opinion,

[12:18] articulating a position is definitely

[12:20] the highest form of patriotism, I think.

[12:24] With that in mind, tonight Max marched

[12:26] to a New York landmark made famous by

[12:29] the end of a war

[12:31] to protest the beginning of this new

[12:34] one.

[12:34] >> We are telling the president, "Do not

[12:36] act in our name. This is not what we

[12:38] want."

[12:40] >> From protests in this country, we turn

[12:42] now to Israel. And Israel has been on

[12:45] high alert for days now. Israelis have

[12:47] been told to keep their gas masks with

[12:48] them at all times. With the war going

[12:51] into its second full day, what's the

[12:53] situation there now? NBC's Martin

[12:55] Fletcher is in Israel tonight. Martin,

[12:59] >> John, the Israelis are just waking up

[13:01] this morning. They're going to find the

[13:02] news of what's been happening in in Iraq

[13:04] and Kuwait. And the the fear here, of

[13:06] course, is that will will it happen

[13:08] here? Will Israel become the victim of

[13:10] Iraqi scuds? So far, the mood's pretty

[13:12] uh pretty even, though. The people are

[13:14] just going around their their daily

[13:16] lives told by the government to continue

[13:18] as normal. Of course, what passes as

[13:20] normal here would be pretty weird

[13:22] elsewhere. Everyone's carrying gas masks

[13:24] with them. They've been told by the

[13:25] government to do that in case they're

[13:27] surprised. They should get a maximum of

[13:29] about 6 minutes warning if an Iraq is if

[13:31] a Scott is fired from Iraq. 150,000

[13:34] people changed their gas masks uh

[13:37] yesterday, showing how people do leave

[13:39] things till the last minute. But many

[13:41] people walking in the streets without

[13:42] their gas masks. They say, "Well, it

[13:43] probably won't happen. Uh things have

[13:45] been worse in the past." and Israeli

[13:47] just trying to continue life as normal.

[13:49] John,

[13:49] >> how would you compare Martin the the war

[13:52] now compared to the Gulf War back in '

[13:54] 91 in Israel?

[13:56] >> Well, yeah, sure. Well, I was here, of

[13:58] course, and the clear difference, of

[13:59] course, is that then 39 Scuds rain down

[14:02] upon Israel with regular conventional

[14:04] warheads. Nothing's happened so far.

[14:06] Right now, this is a country that is

[14:07] simply waiting for the worst, hoping it

[14:09] doesn't happen. And as the prime

[14:11] minister said, he said, there's only a

[14:12] 1% chance or so that anything will

[14:14] happen. But Israel, he said, is 100%

[14:16] ready. You know, if there if there is a

[14:18] con chemical attack, one security expert

[14:21] said to me, if it's going to happen

[14:23] anywhere, this is the place to be

[14:24] because Israel really is ready. You

[14:25] know, you go to the hospitals here in

[14:27] Tel Aviv, there are hundreds of beds

[14:29] outside on the streets waiting to

[14:31] receive anybody that gets hurt. They got

[14:33] showers in the streets ready to

[14:34] decontaminate citizens if they get hit

[14:37] by chemical attack. Nobody would go

[14:39] inside the hospital until they've been

[14:42] decontaminated. Everybody has been told

[14:44] what to do. It's a nation that is really

[14:46] ready for the worst. Knows what to do in

[14:48] general. Of course, if it really

[14:50] happens, we we know people in this

[14:52] situation bound to panic, but Israel in

[14:54] general is ready as it can be. John

[14:56] >> Martin Fletcher in Israel. Martin, thank

[14:58] you very much. And joining us now from

[15:01] Israel is Iraq expert and NBC News

[15:04] analyst Amatsia Barome. He heads the

[15:07] Middle Eastern history department at the

[15:09] University of Hifa and is a visiting

[15:10] fellow at the Brookings Institution in

[15:13] Washington. Professor, welcome. Thanks

[15:15] for being with us.

[15:17] >> Good morning, John.

[15:18] >> Now, you predicted that Saddam Hussein

[15:20] wouldn't accept asylum to avoid war.

[15:23] Now, with the US attack on Baghdad, what

[15:26] course do you see Saddam taking if he is

[15:28] alive?

[15:31] >> Yeah, if he is alive. Uh I think that

[15:34] right now Saddam has proved to us that

[15:36] he sticks to his guns in a sense. He

[15:40] sticks to his plan A. Plan A is to play

[15:43] the role of an innocent victim. And when

[15:46] you play the role of an innocent victim,

[15:49] you cannot uh push the buttons of

[15:53] chemical miss chemical tipped missiles

[15:57] towards Israel because that's not a

[15:59] victim. and you cannot use scads anyway

[16:02] because scads are prohibited by the UN.

[16:06] Now the scenario of se of of plan A is

[16:09] that Saddam needs to provide as many

[16:12] civilian casualties as possible for the

[16:16] consumption for the uh benefit of the uh

[16:20] international television networks. He

[16:23] relies heavily on the help of

[16:26] demonstrators like the young man we have

[16:28] seen just here. very impressive and uh

[16:31] demonstr in America and in in Europe

[16:34] anti-war western u if you wish circles

[16:38] if you wish uh lobby he hopes that if

[16:42] the war takes longer than the Americans

[16:45] are planning and if the civilian

[16:48] casualties are higher than the Americans

[16:51] are planning are planning not to have

[16:53] any of course if if they're high then

[16:56] the the large parts of the community in

[17:00] in in the western world will force

[17:02] America to stop the war. So that's plan

[17:05] A and right now that's what he is

[17:07] banking all his hope on. There is plan B

[17:11] and plan C but certainly plan A is now

[17:14] fullyfledged uh you know in front of you

[17:18] and the fact that Israel hasn't absorbed

[17:20] even one missile last night is a proof

[17:23] of that. I'd only say more. If one more

[17:26] night we don't we we we we don't see any

[17:30] missiles coming here as then I would say

[17:32] it's almost certain there will be no

[17:34] missiles on Israel at all.

[17:36] >> A lot of uncertainty. There's a lot of

[17:37] uncertainty about Saddam Hussein right

[17:39] now. We still don't know the question

[17:41] about whether or not he's alive or dead.

[17:43] Amatia Barome, our thanks to you in

[17:45] Israel. Now, it would not be enough for

[17:47] Saddam Hussein just to leave the

[17:49] country. You'll remember President Bush

[17:50] included his two sons in the 48 hour

[17:53] ultimatum as well. And here's why.

[17:55] Experts will tell you that the sons of

[17:57] Saddam are as feared and are as ruth

[18:00] ruthless as the Iraqi leader himself.

[18:02] They've achieved their own special

[18:03] notoriety. Apparently to know them is to

[18:06] fear them. Here's NBC's Hodaki.

[18:11] >> These are the faces of the next

[18:13] generation of terror. They are Saddam

[18:16] Hussein's sons. Udai, aged 38, is a

[18:20] powerful member of parliament. Kusai,

[18:22] aged 36, the leader of Saddam's

[18:25] military.

[18:25] >> Saddam's sons are as dangerous as

[18:29] Saddam. And the sons have the potential

[18:33] to be even more dangerous than their

[18:35] father.

[18:36] >> Khan Cochland is a British journalist

[18:38] and author of a new book, Saddam, King

[18:41] of Terror. He says the Sons will play a

[18:44] key role in how this war unfolds. Even

[18:47] at this late stage, I think Saddam and

[18:50] his sons believe that they can survive

[18:52] the current crisis.

[18:54] >> Saddam's sons have spent a lifetime

[18:56] learning lessons on how to survive from

[18:58] their father. Udai was born in 1964, the

[19:02] first of Saddam's five children with his

[19:04] wife Sajida. Cochland says Udai's

[19:08] political education began early when

[19:10] Saddam was locked away in jail for

[19:13] trying to overthrow a rival party

[19:15] government. His wife used to smuggle

[19:18] messages to him from his party

[19:20] colleagues in Udai's diaper. And from

[19:24] that from that moment, um Udai was

[19:27] involved in the politics of Iraq.

[19:29] >> In 1979, when Saddam seized power as

[19:32] president of Iraq, Udai was 15, but his

[19:35] reputation for violence was already well

[19:38] known. In high school, he reportedly

[19:40] beat his teachers and principal. in his

[19:43] early 20s when he became head of the

[19:45] Iraqi Olympic Committee. The prestigious

[19:48] post became an outlet for Udai's growing

[19:51] ruthlessness.

[19:52] When the Iraqi soccer team lost an

[19:54] important match, the players learned the

[19:57] price for displeasing Udai.

[20:00] >> They're all beaten severely on the soles

[20:02] of their feet so that in some cases they

[20:05] couldn't walk for months.

[20:07] >> As Udai's power grew, he became more

[20:10] brutal and out of control. Udai is a

[20:13] deranged psychopath who has a great

[20:17] capacity for violence.

[20:19] >> Over the years, much of that violence

[20:21] was directed toward women. There are

[20:24] reports of Udai snatching women from the

[20:26] streets, then raping and murdering them.

[20:30] >> I am very sure that he lured some women

[20:36] in order to rape them. Few people know

[20:39] Udai as well as Abbas Eljanabi. He was

[20:42] Udai's assistant for 15 years until he

[20:45] fled Iraq 5 years ago. He and others

[20:48] describe Udai as a serial rapist.

[20:52] >> And this is not, you know, only one or

[20:55] twice or three times. This is regular in

[20:58] his in his life.

[21:00] >> No one was exempt from Udai's cruelty.

[21:02] In 1988, he bludgeoned to death one of

[21:04] Saddam's closest aids, a man he believed

[21:07] had insulted his mother's honor. Years

[21:10] later, he even carried out murders

[21:12] against members of his own family.

[21:15] In 1995, two of Udai's brothers-in-law

[21:19] defected to Jordan. There, one of them

[21:21] revealed secrets about Iraq's weapons of

[21:24] mass destruction. Saddam lured them

[21:26] home, and Udai and his brother

[21:29] orchestrated their deaths. They launched

[21:32] basically a military attack on the house

[21:35] with rocket launchers, grenades, heavy

[21:38] machine guns. They killed the

[21:40] sons-in-law, the father, and all the

[21:42] other relatives that were in the house.

[21:44] It was basically a massacre.

[21:46] >> But that very same year, something

[21:48] happened that would alter the line of

[21:50] succession in Iraq. Assassins attacked

[21:53] Udai, shooting him numerous times. The

[21:56] attack left him partially paralyzed and

[21:58] some say even more unstable.

[22:02] Udai had become a liability for Saddam.

[22:05] The Iraqi dictator would still allow him

[22:07] to play an important role in the

[22:09] government, but Saddam reluctantly

[22:11] decided that Udai's brother, Kusai,

[22:14] would be a better choice as the future

[22:17] ruler of Iraq. At 36, just two years

[22:21] younger than Udai, relatively little is

[22:23] known about Kusai. But by all accounts,

[22:26] he is just as dangerous as his brother.

[22:29] Udai's former assistant says he closely

[22:32] observed Kusai and agrees when it comes

[22:35] to violence, there is little difference

[22:38] between Saddam's sons.

[22:39] >> They are a copy. They are the same.

[22:42] >> Iraqi experts say in this war, Kusai

[22:45] commands a force of at least 100,000

[22:48] soldiers and intelligence officers loyal

[22:50] to Saddam. He is also responsible for

[22:53] protecting his father and his inner

[22:55] circle. Some say getting rid of Saddam

[22:59] is not enough.

[23:00] >> We don't want a position where his sons

[23:04] could replace him. They are as tarnished

[23:07] as their father. They are as dangerous

[23:10] as their father and they have to be

[23:12] taken out in the same way their father

[23:14] has to be taken out.

[23:16] We return now to the ground invasion and

[23:19] the front line. And let's go back to

[23:20] NBC's David Bloom who's with the Third

[23:23] Infantry. And David, give us an update.

[23:27] >> Well, John, I just wanted to introduce

[23:28] you briefly to uh one of the uh the

[23:31] stars of the US Army. His name is

[23:32] Sergeant Major Bob Gallagher, and he's

[23:35] the uh one of the the executive officers

[23:37] here as far as leading this force, this

[23:39] task force. And we're again with the

[23:41] Third Infantry Division, which is the

[23:43] lead element here. We're literally at

[23:45] the front lines in southern Iraq waiting

[23:46] for the rest of the force to catch up

[23:48] with us. Uh, Sergeant Major Gallagher,

[23:50] how's the mission going so far?

[23:51] >> Great. Tell us about the uh the

[23:53] opposition, the very light opposition

[23:55] you face. Their mission at first was to

[23:57] take out two Iraqi observation posts

[24:00] with about 30 soldiers a piece in it uh

[24:02] because you didn't want them to relay uh

[24:05] messages back to Baghdad as to where you

[24:06] were coming in. Tell me just I mean walk

[24:08] me through that. How did that take

[24:10] place? is uh went according to our plan.

[24:14] Pretty smooth. Uh wasn't anything that

[24:18] we didn't expect. We heard the reports

[24:20] on the radio about uh Iraqi Army uh

[24:23] division surrendering the uh the 11th

[24:26] Army Division, one of the three Iraqi

[24:27] Army divisions uh in southern Iraq. If

[24:30] those reports, and what we're saying on

[24:31] a radio is military radio, if those

[24:33] reports are accurate, and we have no

[24:35] reason to believe that they're not,

[24:36] that's a good sign. It'd probably be a

[24:39] wise thing for them to do.

[24:42] >> And you can hear Trinity Mlan, one of

[24:44] the other soldiers here, laughing about

[24:46] that because uh I mean, clearly there's

[24:48] a sense, John, of of optimism among

[24:50] these soldiers. They've faced only light

[24:51] opposition thus far. To the extent that

[24:53] there's heavy Iraqi opposition up closer

[24:56] to Baghdad, encircling Baghdad. They may

[24:58] confront that in the days to come, but

[25:00] as they say, so far so good for these

[25:02] soldiers on the vanguard of the uh US

[25:04] movement into southern Iraq. John. All

[25:06] right, David Bloom reporting with the

[25:08] Third Infantry in southern Iraq. David,

[25:10] thank you very much and thanks to uh to

[25:13] your guests as well. Now, they've grown

[25:15] up with the pretend violence of video

[25:18] games, but they have actually before we

[25:21] do that story, let's do Colonel Charles

[25:24] Benson Jr. He is the commander of the

[25:26] Air Force Weather Agency. And Colonel

[25:28] Benson, welcome. Thanks for being with

[25:30] us. Let's talk about the weather

[25:32] forecasting, how essential it is to this

[25:35] whole process.

[25:38] >> Well, uh it's very uh very essential

[25:40] especially for the the planning of

[25:42] military operations. And uh what we do

[25:44] is uh try to make sure the combat forces

[25:47] that are in theater have the very latest

[25:49] weather information can use that to

[25:51] anticipate uh the weather trends and use

[25:53] that in the planning factors for mission

[25:55] execution. Well, how's the weather been

[25:57] so far? And how has the forecasting, do

[25:59] you think based on what you've seen,

[26:00] really helped make this operation work?

[26:05] >> Well, I think it's been helpful. Um, uh,

[26:07] there were some, uh, serious problems

[26:09] with sand and, uh, and suspended dust in

[26:12] the air yesterday. I think that's been

[26:14] pretty widely reported, but, um, I think

[26:16] that was anticipated. We've had pretty

[26:18] good luck anticipating the dust and sand

[26:20] events, uh, based on numerical weather

[26:22] prediction models and also high

[26:24] resolution satellite imagery. So, I

[26:26] think we've been fairly successful in

[26:27] anticipating when those events are going

[26:29] to happen. And uh the good news is it

[26:31] looks like the winds are going to

[26:33] lighten up over the next two to three

[26:34] days. And the chances of that happening

[26:36] uh over the weekend are probably

[26:38] diminished.

[26:38] >> It doesn't look like they've had

[26:39] entirely clear skies over Baghdad during

[26:42] some of these bombing operations though,

[26:43] has it?

[26:45] >> No, there's been some scattered clouds.

[26:47] There's been some scattered high and

[26:48] middle clouds and I would not be

[26:51] surprised if that continues over the

[26:52] next day or two, but we don't expect it

[26:55] to be widespread in in the sense that it

[26:56] would cover the entire country, but

[26:58] there will be some middle and high

[26:59] clouds uh passing through from time to

[27:02] time.

[27:02] >> What's the forecast for the next few

[27:04] days?

[27:05] Uh the next few days we anticipate uh uh

[27:08] again some scattered clouds and there

[27:10] may be some restricted visibility due to

[27:12] dust and haze in some areas but it won't

[27:14] be anything like uh that we saw

[27:16] yesterday. And I think as we get into

[27:18] the weekend the winds are going to

[27:19] continue to lighten up and uh the

[27:21] visibilities ought to stay pretty good

[27:23] and the next uh opportunity for that to

[27:26] uh go back down as far as v visibilities

[27:28] would be sometime early next week. But

[27:30] next 72 hours uh look fairly good

[27:33] >> again. Colonel Charles L.Benson is with

[27:35] the US Air Force Weather Agency. Colonel

[27:38] Benson, thanks for being with us.

[27:41] Now, they've grown up with the pretend

[27:43] violence of video games, but they have

[27:45] no real memory of war. How are US teens

[27:49] reacting to this war? NBC's Josh

[27:51] Manowitz went to one high school to find

[27:54] out.

[27:58] >> Let me see a show of hands.

[28:01] How many of you think the United States

[28:03] is doing the right thing by getting

[28:04] involved in this war?

[28:07] >> They are high school seniors, quite

[28:09] literally tomorrow's leaders. This is

[28:11] Ms. Hall's fifth period government class

[28:13] at Fairfax High in LA. So,

[28:16] >> I just feel that if like the war was

[28:18] really like needed that the whole UN

[28:21] would agree with each other to do it.

[28:23] >> How many of you think we're going to

[28:25] win?

[28:27] They were only five and six when the

[28:29] bombs fell on Iraq in 1991. More than a

[28:32] decade later, these well-informed

[28:34] students believe the US will triumph

[28:37] this time as well. But they're not sure

[28:39] our president is making us safer. How

[28:42] many of you think that there's going to

[28:44] be terrorism here in the United States

[28:46] as a result of our starting this war?

[28:49] >> So, what's the answer? Do you allow him

[28:51] to sort of stay in power because you're

[28:53] afraid of the effect of taking him out

[28:55] of power?

[28:56] If we win and Saddam Hussein is taken

[28:58] out of power and we don't get no

[29:00] terrorist attacks and the outcome is

[29:01] good. But if we do then we have a

[29:03] serious problem.

[29:03] >> So we're just supposed to take that type

[29:05] of risk.

[29:05] >> So we just have to take the chance and

[29:07] that's what Bush is doing.

[29:08] >> There's no draft anymore. But how many

[29:11] of you would sign up for the military?

[29:16] >> If I have the chance to take part in,

[29:17] you know, making history and saving my

[29:19] country, saving my family, my friends,

[29:20] and the ones I love, I'll go for it.

[29:23] I'll do it straight up. But he was the

[29:25] exception. If you're looking for dreamy

[29:27] idealism, don't look here. Most of these

[29:29] students are as distrustful of the

[29:31] president's motives as most Americans

[29:33] are of Saddam Hussein. More than a few

[29:36] think this war is about oil and Mr.

[29:38] Bush's image.

[29:39] >> I think it's more about oil than

[29:41] anything else because oil is what we

[29:43] want and what we need.

[29:44] >> How many of you think there's a

[29:46] connection between Saddam Hussein and al

[29:49] Qaeda?

[29:52] I don't feel that Iraq is a real threat

[29:54] to us. And if we were going to war

[29:56] because Iraq was a threat, then why

[29:58] aren't we going to war with North Korea?

[29:59] They're the real threat. Like, that to

[30:01] me ruins the whole argument.

[30:03] >> They also don't trust us. How many of

[30:06] you think that we in the news media give

[30:09] you the straight story about what's

[30:10] happening over there?

[30:14] >> No one.

[30:17] >> I think the press leads the charge in

[30:18] every war. I mean, propaganda is always

[30:20] something that,

[30:21] >> you know, fuels the fire.

[30:23] >> And they think the first President Bush

[30:25] and President Clinton

[30:28] >> should have finished this job a long

[30:30] time ago.

[30:31] >> 10 years ago when Saddam Hussein

[30:33] actually attacked Kuwait and started

[30:35] killing his people. That's when we found

[30:36] out that he was a brutal dictator. We

[30:38] could have finished him off then. We

[30:40] could have like made him stepped out

[30:41] then. Why did we stop? And now a

[30:44] generation that has never known a world

[30:46] without MTV has a televised war as a new

[30:50] and perhaps enduring fact of life.

[30:53] >> It's really happening and it's kind of

[30:54] scary.

[30:57] >> And that's our report for tonight on

[30:59] this second war in Iraq. For the latest

[31:01] developments in this fast-pacing story,

[31:03] there is continuing coverage on cable on

[31:06] MSNBC and on the internet at MSNBC.com.

[31:10] I'm John Sigenthaler reporting from New

[31:12] York. And for all of us here and

[31:14] overseas at NBC News, good night.

[31:51] Good evening and to our viewers in the

[31:53] east coast, good morning. I'm Lester

[31:55] Halt. Here's the latest in Operation

[31:57] Iraqi Freedom. US-led forces continue

[31:59] their ground assault from Kuwait into

[32:02] Iraq after a series of artillery barges.

[32:05] British troops have stormed the Alfa

[32:07] Peninsula at the head of the Persian

[32:09] Gulf. It's a key route for oil tanker

[32:11] traffic. Meanwhile, huge explosions

[32:13] heard near the southern Iraq city of

[32:15] Bazra. US intelligence believes Saddam

[32:18] Hussein and possibly both his sons were

[32:21] in fact inside the Baghdad compound

[32:24] struck by American missiles early

[32:26] Thursday morning. Iraqi time. It is not

[32:28] clear if the Iraqi leader was injured or

[32:31] killed. Also, American officials believe

[32:33] that the videotape of Saddam Hussein

[32:35] broadcast after the strike may have been

[32:38] recorded prior to the attack. Secretary

[32:41] of Defense Donald Rumsfeld confirmed

[32:43] Thursday that the US was in touch with

[32:45] Iraqi forces, including members of

[32:47] Saddam Hussein's elite Republican Guard

[32:49] over how to surrender without a fight.

[32:51] NBC News is hearing preliminary reports

[32:53] of widescale surrender by elite Iraqi

[32:56] forces. Stay tuned to MSNBC for further

[32:59] details. We want to remind you we recap

[33:01] the latest headlines on the Iraq crisis

[33:03] every 15 minutes at the top of the hour,

[33:05] 15 after on the half hour and quarter of

[33:08] the hour right here on MSNBC. You can

[33:10] also log on to our website

[33:12] Iraq.msnbc.com

[33:14] for complete coverage as well as the

[33:16] target Iraq interactive library. There's

[33:18] in-depth analysis, a slideshow, and

[33:20] video. It'll help you as we all walk

[33:23] through this together, this uncharted

[33:24] territory of America at war in Iraq.

[33:27] It's all at uh Iraq.msnbc.com.

[33:31] Carl Rochelle is at the Pentagon tonight

[33:33] where we're still processing news of the

[33:35] first coalition casualties in this war

[33:38] uh aboard a Marine helicopter that went

[33:41] down. Carl, what can you tell us about

[33:42] that? Uh Lester, I can tell you

[33:44] unfortunately and quite sadly,

[33:46] apparently all 16 people on board that

[33:49] helicopter uh died in the crash. It was

[33:52] a CH46 Cite Transport helicopter uh with

[33:56] the first Marine Expeditionary Force

[33:58] which is out of Camp Pendleton,

[34:00] California. There was a fourperson

[34:02] Marine Corps crew on board. We believe

[34:05] the other 12 were all British, either

[34:07] Marine or British troops of some nature.

[34:10] The uh the Brits do not in fact confirm

[34:12] casualties, but we are told that all all

[34:15] 16 people on board that helicopter went

[34:17] down. It was in Kuwait, apparently on

[34:19] its way back into Kuwait from Iraq where

[34:21] it was fing the British troops when it

[34:23] went down. Uh no indication of enemy

[34:26] fire involved with it, nor indication of

[34:28] friendly fire, blue on blue, if you

[34:30] will, to use the military term for it.

[34:32] Uh it likely is an accident caused by

[34:35] either mechanical failure, it could be

[34:37] weather, it could be pilot error. It is

[34:39] a terribly unforgiving environment

[34:41] flying around in the sand and it's

[34:43] difficult to see and the sand does wear

[34:46] away on the equipment inside the the

[34:48] working inards if you will of the

[34:50] helicopter, the engine and all of the

[34:52] control surfaces as it works around in

[34:54] that very fine powdery type sand that is

[34:57] so outstanding in that area. So it did

[35:00] go down the loss of all life on board.

[35:03] We do not have identification of those

[35:05] killed because of the notification of

[35:08] next of Ken Lester.

[35:09] >> All right, Carl Relle at the Pentagon

[35:11] with that sad news. Carl, thank you very

[35:13] much. Earlier this evening, we got some

[35:15] extraordinary pictures from on the front

[35:17] lines in southern Iraq. Two NBC News

[35:20] correspondents traveling with separate

[35:22] units who made it through the night into

[35:24] southern Iraq. I had a chance to speak

[35:26] with Carrie Sanders. He was with the

[35:28] Second Battalion of the Eth Marines. uh

[35:30] David Bloom with the Third Infantry

[35:32] Division and General Norman Schwarzoff

[35:34] was all a part of that conversation.

[35:36] Let's play it for you now.

[35:40] >> We left from the Kuwaiti side of the

[35:43] border around 8:30 local time, around

[35:46] 12:30 in the afternoon New York time,

[35:48] but that was preceded by about a half

[35:50] hour of artillery shelling on two Iraqi

[35:54] observation posts. They were trying to

[35:56] destroy those observation posts and the

[35:59] 30 or so Iraqi soldiers who were inside

[36:02] those each of those observation posts

[36:05] because they wanted to make sure that

[36:06] they could not relay information back to

[36:08] Baghdad as to the precise location of

[36:12] this large movement by the US Army's

[36:15] Third Infantry Division. That was

[36:16] followed by us moving into Iraq. We

[36:19] crossed the Kuwaiti burm which is about

[36:21] a 30 foot high wall of sand that had

[36:24] been cut through. Then we cut through

[36:26] electrical fences and then we were onto

[36:28] the Iraqi side through a a burm on the

[36:30] Iraqi side which is also about 30 ft

[36:32] high. I can't tell Tom exactly what

[36:35] video you're seeing right now obviously

[36:36] but in addition to that we went through

[36:38] minefields and we also went through

[36:41] unexloited ordinance from the first

[36:43] Persian Gulf War. And what you may see

[36:46] are these orange or yellow or green

[36:48] lights which allow us to make a track

[36:51] through there safely that the scouts had

[36:54] laid down so that these vehicles which

[36:56] were the first vehicles to go through

[36:58] could move through safely. So Tom, right

[37:00] now we're into southern Iraq. We're with

[37:02] the, as I say, the second brigade, the

[37:05] Spartan brigade of the US Army's Third

[37:08] Infantry Division. We're also with

[37:09] what's called the 315 infantry, which

[37:12] are mostly the Bradley's and the tank

[37:14] platoon as well, carrying infantrymen

[37:17] who are out ahead leading the charge, if

[37:19] you will, for the other larger

[37:21] mechanized units to follow on. Tom,

[37:26] >> you're listening to David Bloom as he

[37:28] talks to Tom Brokhaw in our New York

[37:30] studios. Again, uh David with the elite

[37:33] elements of the Third Infantry Division

[37:35] making his way now into southern Iraq

[37:38] and describing in in great detail some

[37:41] of the obstacles they had to make their

[37:43] way through, including landmines being

[37:46] marked by scouts uh and so far meeting

[37:49] no resistance as they began the push

[37:51] into southern Iraq. Let's bring back

[37:54] General Norman Schwarzoff. General,

[37:55] thanks for your patience listening to

[37:57] that report. the fact they have not met

[38:00] any uh resistance of any kind. Does that

[38:02] uh foretell what may lie in the future

[38:04] of this campaign?

[38:06] >> Yeah, very possibly. You know, they uh

[38:08] some of these units, although they're

[38:10] good units, aren't prepared to for have

[38:11] a really tough fight. We ran into a lot

[38:13] of cases in in Desert Storm where where

[38:16] they fired about one or two shots and

[38:18] then took off to the rear as fast as

[38:19] they possibly could. Uh the the unit

[38:22] that the third ID is going up against is

[38:24] supposed to be a very good unit, but

[38:26] that's by Iraqi standards. So, it'll be

[38:28] interesting to see what happens if they

[38:30] ever close on them.

[38:30] >> And you say a very good unit. That would

[38:32] be a regular army unit.

[38:33] >> Yes. Yeah, that's right.

[38:35] >> And then at what point would they expect

[38:36] to encounter a Republican Guard, the

[38:39] elite troops?

[38:40] >> Well, the the information we had quite

[38:42] some time ago was that all the

[38:43] Republican Guard had been pulled back uh

[38:45] very very closely into the uh to the

[38:48] Baghdad area to protect that area and

[38:50] under being under command of Republican

[38:52] Guard generals. Uh, so I would expect

[38:54] that it'll be a while uh before they get

[38:57] into Bazaar probably pretty easily. Uh,

[38:59] but as far as going into to Baghdad,

[39:02] that's another story.

[39:02] >> Is it a pretty predictable route that

[39:05] they will take to Baghdad or is there

[39:07] some flexibility to have still some

[39:09] element of surprise on any road march

[39:11] north? No,

[39:12] >> I don't think there'll be any element of

[39:13] surprise. I think it's going to be a

[39:14] direct shot once Bazra is sustained and

[39:17] then they're going to turn around and

[39:18] head straight for Baghdad.

[39:19] >> Just overwhelming firepower then,

[39:21] >> right? and and and we got great

[39:22] mobility. Uh you know, as I've been

[39:24] saying all along, you got to have

[39:26] logistics followup. Uh the logistical

[39:28] tail wags the operational dog,

[39:30] particularly with these armored units.

[39:32] Uh so you have huge quantities of

[39:34] gasoline that you have to bring up to

[39:35] refuel them. You've got huge quantities

[39:36] of ammunition if they get into a big

[39:38] fight. Uh just to give you an idea, when

[39:41] we sent the units out west for the Hail

[39:43] Mary, we had to build up some log bases.

[39:46] We had to send 36,000 gallons of fuel

[39:49] out there and 115 tons of ammunition

[39:52] just so that they could follow the

[39:54] troops and and resupply them if

[39:55] necessary.

[39:56] >> General, I I know that that uh generals

[39:59] have to make casualty estimates as they

[40:00] prepare a war plan tonight. A marine

[40:03] chopper went down 12 Britain's four

[40:04] Americans. Uh what is it like as the

[40:08] person in charge of a command? You know,

[40:10] you will lose people, but when you get

[40:11] that first report,

[40:13] >> there's never, you know, some people use

[40:15] the term satisfactory losses. As far as

[40:17] I was concerned, there is absolutely no

[40:19] such thing as a satisfactory loss. The

[40:21] loss of of one human life is one too

[40:24] many. Regrettably, in war, that's going

[40:26] to happen. And that's why once you're

[40:28] you're committed to battle, you want to

[40:29] get the war over as fast as possible

[40:31] because that's one way of reducing your

[40:33] own casualties. But nonetheless, your

[40:34] heart goes out to those families that

[40:36] have just lost their loved ones.

[40:38] General, uh, I'll ask your indulgence

[40:40] here. We're going to go back to David

[40:42] Bloom. In fact, if we'll keep you in the

[40:44] conversation if you'd like to ask him

[40:45] some questions. Uh, David, you with us?

[40:48] >> I can hear you.

[40:49] >> Good. David, uh, give us another account

[40:52] of of how you made uh made your way into

[40:54] Iraq.

[40:57] What happened was around 8:00 local

[40:59] time, which is noon Eastern time, 9:00

[41:02] in the morning on the West Coast, this

[41:04] unit, the US Army's Third Infantry

[41:06] Division, began shelling with artillery

[41:09] shells, the Paladines, huge 150 mm

[41:13] howitzer artillery. They began shelling

[41:15] two Iraqi observation posts uh just

[41:18] across the the onto the Iraqi side of

[41:20] the border because they wanted to take

[41:21] out those two observation posts which

[41:24] had uh about 30 Iraqi soldiers each in

[41:27] the observation posts because they

[41:29] didn't want them to relay word back to

[41:31] Baghdad as to where these soldiers from

[41:34] the US Army's Third Infantry Division

[41:36] were crossing into uh southern Iraq.

[41:39] Now, after that happened, we then

[41:41] started moving and we're with the the

[41:43] Spartan Brigade, the second brigade, and

[41:45] the lead infantry unit, which is the 315

[41:47] infantry. These guys are literally the

[41:49] tip of the spear. We're out right now,

[41:50] farther than any other American forces,

[41:52] or at least certainly any other army

[41:54] forces out here uh in the desert of uh

[41:56] of Iraq. What they did was they first

[41:59] moved across the Kuwaiti burm. There had

[42:01] already been bulldozed holes cut in that

[42:03] burm. It's about 30 ft high. Then they

[42:05] moved across into a uh through an

[42:09] electrical fence. There had been uh uh

[42:11] you know basically large sections cut

[42:13] out of the electrical fence to allow the

[42:15] tanks and the Bradley's to to sweep

[42:17] through to roll through. And then we

[42:19] crossed through the Iraqi burm and again

[42:21] they'd already bulldozed through the uh

[42:23] hole in the Iraqi burm which allowed us

[42:26] to get into the Iraqi side. Then we were

[42:28] on the Iraqi side and we confronted a

[42:30] number of obstacles. minefields, first

[42:32] of all, which the Iraqis had laid, but

[42:34] which the Americans had cleared a path

[42:36] through and had placed out lights.

[42:38] Basically, you may see in some of this

[42:40] video some of these lights, orange

[42:42] lights, yellow lights, green lights,

[42:44] which allow them to to safely travel

[42:47] through those Iraqi minefields, which

[42:49] have been cleared by the bulldozing and

[42:51] the anti-mine equipment. Then after

[42:53] that, we went through a or an area of

[42:56] ordinance. Basically, it's an area of

[42:58] unexloded ordinance from the first

[43:00] Persian Gulf War where there were

[43:02] American war plananes. It dropped on

[43:04] Iraqi tanks. We saw the charred remains

[43:06] of the the T72 Iraqi tanks, the BMPs,

[43:10] which are the Iraqi armored personnel

[43:12] carriers again from 12 years ago from

[43:14] the first Gulf War. We wound our way

[43:16] through there and then we came out into

[43:18] the open desert. Now, we have not

[43:20] encountered any Iraqi opposition uh save

[43:23] for the forces were which were at those

[43:25] observation posts which uh were they not

[43:28] wiped out frankly by the Iraqi

[43:29] artillery, they were taken out by the US

[43:32] infantry soldiers who then moved in.

[43:34] We're right now the vanguard of the

[43:37] third infantry division and the other

[43:39] forces will be flowing through these two

[43:42] lanes now into southern Iraq to make

[43:45] their movement further north toward

[43:47] Baghdad.

[43:48] And uh David, as we look at your

[43:50] picture, I'm told we also have uh we

[43:53] also have Carrie Sanders I want to bring

[43:55] in. And producers is going to have to

[43:56] tell me uh which unit Carrie is with. Uh

[44:00] David, you'll stand by.

[44:01] >> Tell the Marines.

[44:02] >> Okay, Carrie, tell me who you're with

[44:04] and and roughly to the extent you can

[44:06] where you are.

[44:08] >> We're with the second battalion, eighth

[44:10] Marines. and uh really can't say too

[44:12] much other than to say that uh if you've

[44:14] been watching the reports from David

[44:15] Bloom, we're not too far away from David

[44:17] Bloom. Uh the Marines have uh suited up

[44:20] this morning and they've put on what

[44:22] they call their mop gear. As a matter of

[44:24] fact, in a short period of time, a

[44:25] deadline's going to approach and we also

[44:27] have to do the same. That is the

[44:28] charcoal line suit that is designed as

[44:30] protection against chemical and

[44:32] biological agents in the event that

[44:34] there is an attack. There were at least

[44:36] three incidents yesterday when the

[44:38] second battalion eighth marines were

[44:40] moving where they had to at least dawn

[44:42] their gas masks. They did this as they

[44:44] were uh traveling in some rather dusty

[44:46] and particularly hot conditions which

[44:48] made it uh for myself extremely

[44:50] uncomfortable. Um I uh I can tell you

[44:53] that the masks when you put them on

[44:56] initially begin to uh cause your face to

[44:58] sweat quite a bit. So it was uh quite an

[45:00] ordeal. In all three cases yesterday, it

[45:03] was uh information that was uh bogus as

[45:06] it were. They were just relying on the

[45:08] uh uh preventative approach to this. On

[45:11] the side of the trucks, they actually

[45:13] have equipment that tests and smells the

[45:16] air to see if there is any sort of

[45:18] chemical or biological agent, a sniffer

[45:20] as it were. What I'm going to try to do

[45:22] here is uh I'm going to try and just

[45:24] give you a small picture. As much as I

[45:26] can't tell you where I am, I can try to

[45:28] provide you a little bit of a picture of

[45:30] what you can see out here. So, let me

[45:31] just step out of the picture for a

[45:33] moment, okay? And I'm going to let you

[45:35] look past us just here for a moment. And

[45:37] you can see here, this is one of the

[45:39] command tents that's been set up. These

[45:40] can be set up in about 5 to 10 minutes

[45:43] uh in the field here by the Marines. And

[45:46] as we come back over this way, you can

[45:49] see some of the other elements that are

[45:51] also here. I'm going to also provide you

[45:54] a picture if I can. And I'm sorry this

[45:56] is taking a little bit difficult, but

[45:57] we're going to sort of bring the camera

[45:59] all the way around here if we can. And

[46:01] we're in sort of a tight condition here.

[46:03] And I want to show you this is what they

[46:05] call the cat patrol. That's the uh uh

[46:07] the folks who go out sort of as the

[46:09] screen in front of moving troops. And

[46:12] what you see right there are tow

[46:13] missiles on top of Humvees. And you can

[46:16] see that they're camouflaged. They've

[46:17] hardened the floors with sandbags. And

[46:19] the patrol that goes out would if they

[46:22] move in a direction would be right out

[46:24] there in front. It would sort of be the

[46:26] blockers on a football team as it were.

[46:28] And you can see some of the units here.

[46:29] And again, you see everybody in their

[46:32] chemical biological suits this morning.

[46:35] Now, we do have some news to report. Uh

[46:37] the there was apparently a battle for

[46:39] the Ramala oil fields. We understand

[46:41] that at least two of the oil fields are

[46:44] on fire. I can report that we did see a

[46:47] glow that appeared to be those Ramala

[46:49] oil fields at one point yesterday. There

[46:52] is also a report of a Blackhawk

[46:53] helicopter that is down. We do not have

[46:56] any information of known casualties or

[46:59] not. And uh finally, we can tell you

[47:01] that hiding in amongst the scrapyards of

[47:04] the old tanks that were dumped and left

[47:06] in the desert after the first Gulf War

[47:09] 12 years ago are T72 tanks. The Iraqi

[47:12] military apparently has moved some of

[47:14] those tanks from their present-day

[47:16] military into hiden amongst there. We

[47:18] know at least one T72 tank has been

[47:20] taken out when it was firing. And

[47:23] finally uh last night a tremendous light

[47:26] show here. Just a tremendous light show

[47:28] as we were watching the multiple uh

[47:30] launch rocket systems fire off in the

[47:33] desert here. Those uh rockets of course

[47:36] heading north. I think we may have some

[47:37] pictures of those. Uh it was a continual

[47:40] firing throughout the night. Uh so many

[47:42] that in fact we lost count. Uh Lester

[47:45] >> Carrie, I'm gonna ask you to stand by. I

[47:46] want to quickly go back to David Bloom.

[47:48] Uh David, are you allowed to to have

[47:50] your camera pan around? And as we do

[47:52] that, I want to ask you about the

[47:54] landmines. Were they more than the

[47:57] commanders expected? And will that

[47:58] continue to be an obstacle that will

[48:01] make you have to pick your way as you

[48:03] move north?

[48:05] Okay, I'm going to ask my photographer,

[48:07] Craig White, to pan around here first

[48:08] because he can't hear what you're

[48:10] saying. So, Craig, go ahead and show a

[48:12] little panoramic view here. We're in a

[48:14] uh an M88 uh which is a a tank recovery

[48:18] vehicle, which you may see some of the

[48:20] soldiers who are here with us in the

[48:22] foreground. And then off of the

[48:23] background, you can see some of the lead

[48:26] elements of this force uh in Bradley's.

[48:28] Now, the Bradley's are the the Bradley

[48:30] fighting vehicle, which is what the

[48:32] infantry soldiers, usually there are

[48:33] eight or nine infantrymen inside those

[48:36] Bradley vehicles. Uh, and then right in

[48:38] this tiny little group that we're in

[48:40] right here, there are not any tanks.

[48:42] You're mostly just looking at the uh the

[48:44] Bradley's and um essentially less of the

[48:47] minefields. We're clear through the

[48:48] minefield right now. We're into the

[48:51] southern Iraqi desert. Uh it's not a

[48:53] section that's mined. What they did was

[48:54] they they heavily mined I mean keep in

[48:56] mind Iraq has some 10 million mines and

[48:59] what they did was they mined the right

[49:02] along the border so that they could try

[49:04] to stop the American forces from coming

[49:06] through. But as I say uh under the cover

[49:08] of darkness they had cleared those

[49:10] minefields.

[49:11] >> We noted all those vehicles are so

[49:13] spread out. Is that just standard

[49:15] defensive doctrine we're seeing there?

[49:16] >> Sure. Absolutely. You don't want to

[49:18] provide a target to the enemy. So you

[49:19] make sure you you stay well spread out

[49:21] so that if they hit one vehicle, it

[49:22] doesn't take them all out.

[49:25] >> And and Carrie Sanders, uh, as your

[49:28] camera panned around, we we apparently

[49:29] were seeing the same thing. Uh, was your

[49:32] progress also, uh, slow? Were you

[49:34] dealing with the landmine issue as well?

[49:38] >> Um, I can't reveal too much about our

[49:40] location, but I can say that the

[49:42] landmine issue has not presented itself

[49:45] yet. And I think that you can begin to

[49:47] sort of connect some of the dots by what

[49:49] that means. Uh I also have a little

[49:51] information uh and this is information

[49:53] that quite frankly is still being sorted

[49:55] out, but it appears that uh the Iraqi

[49:58] 11th Infantry Division may have actually

[50:00] moved some troops to the south and that

[50:02] is maybe what uh is going to be

[50:05] presenting a little bit of a uh little

[50:07] bit of a push for the US military. And

[50:09] >> and David Bloom, I know each unit has

[50:11] its own objectives. What sense do these

[50:14] troops have of the big picture? For

[50:16] example, do they see any of the war

[50:18] planes or the tomahawks? Do they have

[50:19] any idea what's going on on the big

[50:22] picture with regard to this war?

[50:25] We were told at a briefing by the

[50:27] commanders of the Third Infantry

[50:29] Division that you would actually see the

[50:32] American uh Tomahawk cruise missiles

[50:35] flying overhead us as they made their

[50:37] way toward Baghdad. But we were actually

[50:39] moving out ahead of the main part of the

[50:41] force. We did not see any of that last

[50:43] night. Excuse me. Our troops were

[50:46] concentrated on their mission, which was

[50:48] to clear, as they say, those two Iraqi

[50:52] observation posts so that they could not

[50:54] relay word back to Baghdad as to what

[50:57] the location of this large force from

[50:59] the third infantry division is. These

[51:01] soldiers uh when they begin a mission

[51:03] like this are very very focused on what

[51:06] their specific task is. Do they know

[51:08] what the big picture is? Yeah. Do they

[51:09] know what some of their possible

[51:11] missions may be? Yes, they know those

[51:13] things. But their first mission was to

[51:16] get across that Iraqi line as quickly as

[51:19] they possibly could with the artillery

[51:22] uh leading the charge as far as taking

[51:24] out those observation posts. Then the

[51:25] infantrymen moving in to make sure that

[51:27] they were all clear. Again, their

[51:29] biggest concern was one of intelligence.

[51:31] They don't want the Iraqis to know where

[51:33] they are in southern Iraq so that they

[51:35] can make their approaches to Baghdad

[51:38] through through routes of their own

[51:39] choosing rather than having those Iraqi

[51:41] forces know exactly where they are.

[51:44] >> Uh Carrie Sanders, the fact you guys are

[51:46] now on the Iraqi side, what has that

[51:48] done to the attitude, morale, uh of the

[51:52] Marines you're with? Clearly, they were

[51:53] anxious to go for a long time.

[51:58] We're we're losing Carrie. We're losing

[52:00] your audio. We'll get it fixed and and

[52:01] let folks know we are pushing the edges

[52:03] of technology here. You're seeing new

[52:05] technology being fielded here uh as we

[52:09] are literally with the troops here in

[52:11] uncharted territory as far as this war.

[52:13] Uh Carrie, we're back now. Uh can you

[52:15] you hear me? Okay.

[52:17] >> Can you hear me?

[52:17] >> Yeah, we got you. Go ahead, pal.

[52:19] >> Okay, I'm back. Go ahead, Lester.

[52:21] Question. Yeah, the the the question uh

[52:23] I forgot the question already, but I uh

[52:25] the the morale, the issue of morale, the

[52:27] fact that these guys are finally on the

[52:29] move here after waiting in that desert

[52:30] for so long.

[52:32] >> Well, you know, these guys have been

[52:34] gone from Camp Lejun since uh January

[52:36] 9th. So, uh, they have been, uh, quite

[52:39] frankly, uh, they've gone through that

[52:41] military hurry up and wait and they've

[52:43] gone to the good to go and now they're

[52:45] at the, uh, level where, uh, quite

[52:47] frankly, the lieutenant colonel here,

[52:49] Royal Mortonson, says he exactly wanted

[52:51] them at. They're right at the peak. They

[52:53] are really where they should be. Uh, it

[52:55] takes a lot, you know, to get these guys

[52:57] uh, basically through that long period.

[52:59] They've been living in some miserable

[53:01] conditions in the desert for more than a

[53:04] month. And so they are now loaded up,

[53:06] but they have trained. You know, it's

[53:07] interesting. Uh 65% of the US Marine

[53:11] Corps is aged 22 or younger. These are

[53:13] very young men who are here. And uh

[53:16] they've been psyching each other up. Uh

[53:18] there was a decided change when uh they

[53:22] knew that the uh war had started. And uh

[53:25] since then, they have been nothing but

[53:26] business. And uh quite frankly, some of

[53:29] them have been very honest when they

[53:30] said uh I wouldn't be uh wouldn't be a

[53:33] human if I wasn't a little bit afraid of

[53:34] this. But I'm also well aware that I'm

[53:37] trained. Uh they say that they believe

[53:39] that they work for the best military in

[53:40] the world. And they talk about something

[53:42] in the US Marine Corps called muscle

[53:44] memory. That they have done so much

[53:46] training that when they get into that

[53:48] situation where they're actually

[53:50] engaging the enemy, they don't even have

[53:51] to think about it. Their muscle memory

[53:53] will take over. They will do exactly as

[53:55] they're trained. and they likely are

[53:56] going to be tested to that perhaps very

[53:58] soon. Lester,

[53:59] >> David, was there an anxiety level as you

[54:01] folks were making your way across the

[54:03] border? And is that now relaxed now that

[54:05] you apparently are through the

[54:06] minefield?

[54:07] >> You know, uh Lester, I can't tell you

[54:09] that we've been through that minefield.

[54:11] I can't say that we have gone through

[54:12] that. So, let's not let's not sort of go

[54:14] through that area.

[54:15] >> Actually, actually, I was referring

[54:16] referring to David's group. Uh I'm

[54:19] sorry, Carrie.

[54:20] >> David, go ahead.

[54:21] >> That's okay. that

[54:24] >> what I was what I was saying, Lester,

[54:26] was that the anxiety level yesterday, to

[54:28] the extent that there was anxiety level

[54:29] had to do with the uh the possible

[54:32] chemical gas attack that the horn

[54:35] sounded and we all had to sprint for uh

[54:38] we had our gas masks on and had to put

[54:39] our our chemical suits on, which of

[54:41] course we're still wearing. Carrie may

[54:42] have mentioned this that they're going

[54:43] in what they call mop one, which means

[54:45] that we've got our chemical suits on,

[54:47] but we don't have gas masks on. We don't

[54:49] have our our boots on. We don't have our

[54:51] gloves on. The there was not so much an

[54:54] anxiety level with these forces as there

[54:56] was a sense of anticipation. Carrie

[54:58] mentioned that the Marines that he's

[54:59] with have been here since January.

[55:01] Elements of the Third Infantry Division

[55:02] have been in here in Kuwait and now in

[55:05] Iraq longer than any other American

[55:07] forces since September and October of

[55:09] last year. So, six months going on. 6

[55:11] months a lot of these forces have been

[55:13] here waiting to go. They firmly believe

[55:15] and we've said this a lot over the last

[55:17] couple days that the only way for them

[55:18] to get home is through Baghdad. So now

[55:20] that the mission is underway and they've

[55:22] accomplished the first task of their

[55:23] mission, there is that sense of relief.

[55:25] They they weren't too worried about this

[55:27] first part of the mission. It's the

[55:29] missions to come that they're more

[55:30] concerned about.

[55:31] >> And David, we know that operational

[55:33] security is paramount. Yet we are seeing

[55:35] this new relationship that both of you

[55:37] right now are are showing us in in its

[55:39] full glory. the fact that you have been

[55:41] taken uh you're in the circle of trust

[55:43] if you will with the soldiers and

[55:45] marines you are with uh what what is

[55:48] that relationship like? How has this

[55:50] test this experiment gone so far in your

[55:52] view?

[55:55] >> Well, let me let me answer that question

[55:57] as a journalist and answer it as just a

[55:59] person. I mean, as a journalist,

[56:01] obviously, we're trying to maintain our

[56:03] objectivity and report factually what we

[56:06] see and hear here and and not to become

[56:09] one with the force, if you will, because

[56:11] we still have to maintain that that

[56:13] appropriate journalistic distance. As a

[56:16] person, I can tell you that these

[56:18] soldiers have been amazing to us. They

[56:20] have they have done anything and

[56:23] everything that we could ask of them and

[56:25] we in turn are trying to return the

[56:26] favor by doing anything and everything

[56:28] that they can ask of us. But as far as

[56:31] the relationship is concerned, we are

[56:33] about as one with this force as you

[56:35] could possibly be. Uh we've been going

[56:37] out with these soldiers from the US

[56:39] Army's third infantry division since

[56:41] December. Uh we built relationships, we

[56:43] built trust and I think that now they

[56:45] trust us and we trust them. Again, as a

[56:48] journalist, you have to maintain some

[56:50] distance. If there are problems that

[56:51] they encounter, we'll report those as

[56:53] well and let you know what's going on

[56:54] here, both the good things and the bad

[56:56] things. But, but just as a as a human

[56:58] being, uh they couldn't be any more any

[57:01] more generous anymore have embraced us

[57:03] into these units because obviously our

[57:05] equipment, our presence can cause

[57:07] potential problems for them. It it's

[57:09] cumbersome for them. There are two extra

[57:11] guys in this tank recovery vehicle that

[57:13] otherwise wouldn't be there. there are

[57:15] two more people they have to worry about

[57:17] feeding and clothing and and all that.

[57:19] So that if you if you accept that that

[57:21] they're willing to uh to to wrap us in

[57:23] their embrace, if you will, it's a

[57:25] relationship that uh so far has exceeded

[57:28] my greatest hopes.

[57:29] >> It is an unprecedented kind of war

[57:31] coverage. David Bloom with the Third

[57:33] Infantry Division. Carrie Sanders with

[57:35] the Marines. General Schwarzoff with us

[57:36] as well. Uh David, we understand you

[57:38] have to move on. We'll let you go.

[57:40] Carrie, I'll get right back to you in a

[57:41] second, but I want to get General

[57:42] Schwarzoff's view on this embedding of

[57:45] journalists. Do you think that this will

[57:48] uh obviously it'll change the way we see

[57:50] wars. What do you think will be the

[57:51] overall impact when all is said and

[57:53] done?

[57:54] >> Well, I think it's wonderful that we're

[57:55] having it this way. You know, it's a

[57:56] problem we've wrestled with for a very

[57:58] very long time about how do you get

[58:00] reporting uh from the battlefield and

[58:02] yet at the same time make sure that

[58:04] you're not compromising things like that

[58:06] would give the enemy an advantage. and

[58:07] and so I I'm tickled to death that it's

[58:10] going the way it's going. I think that

[58:11] this this may be the solution. I would

[58:14] only disagree with one thing. You know,

[58:16] if you ever read the book, we were

[58:17] soldiers once and young. Uh this was

[58:19] Colonel Hal Moore and Joe Galloway and

[58:21] Joe Galloway had a very very close

[58:23] personal relationship with with that

[58:25] unit and and identified with the first

[58:27] cal big time. So I think there I think

[58:29] you don't necessarily have to maintain

[58:30] your objectivity totally as a

[58:32] journalist. I think you can use your

[58:34] heart a little bit with some of these

[58:35] guys you're dealing with. I want to let

[58:37] Carrie Sanders weigh in with this.

[58:39] Carrie, tell me about your time with

[58:41] those Marines and have you talked about

[58:43] some of those tough calls that may lie

[58:45] ahead when things get sticky.

[58:48] >> Of course, we have. I'm with the Second

[58:49] Battalion, ETH Marines, and we've had

[58:51] those discussions because quite frankly,

[58:52] nobody wants to have a surprise. Um,

[58:56] let me just give you a quick story here

[58:58] of uh just a conversation. You know,

[59:00] Marines are tough and they don't want to

[59:02] project anything but how tough they

[59:04] really are. In an interview with one of

[59:07] the uh one of the Marines here, um the

[59:11] Marine actually got really tearyeyed

[59:13] talking about his family and took out a

[59:15] picture and uh just uh felt that what he

[59:19] was saying somehow first of all was uh

[59:22] not the image that he wanted to project

[59:24] and second of all the uh picture that he

[59:26] took out. Then he said, "Well, you know,

[59:28] if I actually became a uh enemy prisoner

[59:30] of war and somehow that tape got back,

[59:32] how that would affect him, um you know,

[59:36] uh maybe I don't want that out there."

[59:37] So, you know, we sat and we had a little

[59:39] bit of discussion about that. And uh we

[59:41] came to what we felt was a compromise

[59:43] that to show the tears in the eyes was

[59:45] to show the human side of who these

[59:46] people are, but not to show the picture

[59:48] of his daughter was perhaps something

[59:50] that made sense. Uh we have often seen

[59:52] in previous wars and General Schwarzoff

[59:54] knows this uh where people don't want

[59:56] even their last names used, just use

[59:58] their first names, especially the pilots

[60:00] in the event that they get shot down. Um

[60:02] so I I would say working with the uh

[60:04] working with the Marines here has been

[60:06] uh sort of a give and take, but it it

[60:08] becomes it comes down to sort of a

[60:09] reasonable aspect here. I mean, I I

[60:11] don't think that we're compromising our

[60:13] journalism uh in the process of doing

[60:15] this. And we've had the tough discussion

[60:17] of what happens if Marines get wounded

[60:20] or killed here on the battlefield, what

[60:22] we're going to do, and how we're going

[60:23] to handle that. And as much as I can

[60:25] tell you that we think we have a

[60:26] approach that we're going to to handle

[60:28] with that, you don't know the situation

[60:30] when it happens. Our plan were it to

[60:33] happen and of course everybody hopes it

[60:34] doesn't is to move away from the

[60:37] location where the injured uh wounded uh

[60:40] or dying are located at least to a

[60:42] distance where we are not up so close to

[60:45] them that we're interfering with what

[60:47] they're doing. And second of all where

[60:48] pictures would not in any way interfere

[60:51] with uh what they're uh what they're

[60:53] trying to do which is god forbid the

[60:55] marine dies that somebody at home is

[60:57] watching their loved one die. Um, it's

[60:59] been a long practice at the network that

[61:02] when covering a war, you don't take the

[61:05] pictures. You don't notify basically the

[61:08] family of uh a loved one who has died in

[61:10] combat. So, the way you do that,

[61:12] >> Jerry Sanders, that's part of the

[61:13] extraordinary conversation I was a

[61:15] privilege to be a part of earlier this

[61:17] evening. Two of our correspondents on

[61:19] the front lines with the troops. The

[61:21] ground war well underway. They are there

[61:23] to capture it all. I'm Lester Hull.

[61:26] Thanks for being with me throughout this

[61:27] evening. Our coverage of Target Iraq

[61:30] does not stop here. Forest Sawyer is up

[61:32] next with continuing coverage here on

[61:34] MSNBC. I'll see you later on.

[61:54] And a very good morning to you everyone.

[61:56] I'm Forest Sawyer. It is 1:00 a.m. on

[61:58] the east coast. Here is the latest in

[62:00] Operation Iraqi Freedom. US-led forces

[62:02] continue their ground assault from

[62:04] Kuwait into Iraq. As you call recall,

[62:06] there were a series of artillery barges.

[62:08] 33rd Infantry Division punching a hole

[62:11] and moving on up into Iraq.