The MacNeil/Lehrer NewsHour (PBS) - 1992-07-21

Channel: malgent

Transcript

Language: English (YouTube automatic captions)

[0:03] [music]

[0:06] Good evening. I'm Robert McNeel in New

[0:08] York. And I'm Jim Lara in Washington.

[0:10] After our summary of the news this

[0:12] Tuesday, we get Israeli, Egyptian,

[0:14] Palestinian, and American views of the

[0:16] big new push for peace in the Middle

[0:18] East. And we sample the Bush versus

[0:20] Clinton political and educational

[0:22] arguments over school vouchers.

[0:26] Part of helping the world live and

[0:28] communicate better is keeping it well

[0:31] informed.

[0:33] That's why funding for the McNeel

[0:35] NewsHour is provided by AT&T

[0:40] and by PepsiCo.

[0:43] [music]

[0:48] PepsiCo

[0:50] and by the Corporation for Public

[0:52] Broadcasting and viewers like you.

[0:55] Federal Reserve Board Chairman Alan

[0:57] Greenspan had some encouraging words

[0:59] today. He said economic growth will

[1:02] improve the nation's employment picture

[1:03] next year, but both Democratic and

[1:06] Republican members of the Senate Banking

[1:07] Committee, said the Fed was moving too

[1:10] slowly and timidly in face of a weak

[1:12] recovery. Committee Chairman Don Regal,

[1:14] a Michigan Democrat, said rising

[1:16] unemployment required more aggressive

[1:19] steps. Greenspan told the committee the

[1:21] Fed's interest rate cuts were slowly

[1:23] helping the economy grow again.

[1:26] >> The recent easings of reserve conditions

[1:29] should help to shore up the economy and

[1:31] coming in the context of a solid trend

[1:34] towards lower inflation have contributed

[1:37] to laying a foundation for a sustained

[1:40] expansion in the US economy. The

[1:43] economic expansion is likely to

[1:45] strengthen moderately to a range of 2

[1:48] and 3/4 to 3% over 1993.

[1:53] Such a pace is expected to reduce the

[1:55] unemployment rate noticeably over the

[1:58] next year and a half. British Airways

[2:01] announced today it will invest $750

[2:04] million in US Air. British Airways was

[2:07] the world's most profitable airline last

[2:09] year, making some $540 million. US Air

[2:13] lost more than $400 million in 1991.

[2:17] Robin Bill Clinton today fired back at

[2:20] President Bush for criticizing his

[2:22] economic plan as smoke and mirrors. He

[2:24] said the president was an expert at

[2:26] using those tricks. He also accused the

[2:28] Bush administration of having the worst

[2:30] economic record since the Great

[2:32] Depression. Clinton spoke to reporters

[2:34] during a campaign stop in Lanesville,

[2:36] Indiana.

[2:37] >> We're losing our economic leadership.

[2:39] Most people working harder for less

[2:40] money, record losses of family farmers,

[2:44] depression in the city and in the rural

[2:45] area.

[2:46] >> So, you're predicting a win?

[2:47] >> I'm predicting that we are we're going

[2:48] to give them a good fight here.

[2:50] >> President Bush today campaigned for his

[2:53] education proposals. He spoke at a

[2:55] Catholic high school in Philadelphia

[2:57] about his so-called GI Bill for

[2:59] children. It would provide a $1,000

[3:01] vouchers for poor and middle-income

[3:03] students to use at private schools.

[3:07] >> I look at in the sense of real

[3:09] opportunity uh to to help families here,

[3:12] to help kids here achieve what they want

[3:15] to achieve, but not at the expense of

[3:17] the public schools. And that's the point

[3:19] we've got to make. So when you hear the

[3:21] big assault on us in in the fall about

[3:24] this question, please do not be taken in

[3:26] by that rhetoric. This is going to

[3:28] enhance education all across the board

[3:31] in my view.

[3:32] >> We'll be discussing the president's

[3:34] voucher proposal later in the program.

[3:37] >> Israel and Egypt held their first summit

[3:39] in six years today. Israeli Prime

[3:42] Minister Rabin and Egyptian President

[3:44] Mubarak met in Cairo. They announced no

[3:47] specific agreements, but Mubarak said a

[3:49] new chapter in the two countries

[3:50] relations had begun. He said he accepted

[3:53] an invitation to visit Israel and would

[3:56] work with Rabbine to accelerate the

[3:58] Middle East peace process. Secretary of

[4:00] State [music] Baker continued his M East

[4:02] peace mission in Jordan. He again called

[4:05] Israeli settlements an obstacle to

[4:07] peace, though Rabbine has placed new

[4:09] limits on them. Baker spoke about the

[4:11] peace process after meeting with

[4:13] Jordan's King Hussein.

[4:16] It's just important in our view that

[4:17] there be a reconvening of the bilaterals

[4:20] fairly promptly in order to take

[4:22] advantage of the possible momentum that

[4:25] could be engendered by a change in

[4:26] government in Israel.

[4:28] Baker later flew to Damascus, Syria,

[4:31] where he will meet tomorrow with

[4:32] President Assad. We'll have more on the

[4:34] new peace initiative right after this

[4:36] news summary. An Israeli soldier was

[4:38] killed in South Lebanon today. Hey, it

[4:40] happened when Muslim guerillas attacked

[4:42] positions in Israel's self-declared

[4:45] security zone in the region. Five other

[4:47] Israeli troops were wounded. The Israeli

[4:49] army shell suspected guerilla camps in

[4:51] retaliation, wounding three people.

[4:55] Members of the United Nations Security

[4:56] Council have warned that Iraq could face

[4:59] a military strike in its latest standoff

[5:01] with weapons inspectors. The inspectors

[5:04] have been camped outside an Iraqi

[5:05] ministry since July 5th, blocked from

[5:08] searching it and facing mounting Iraqi

[5:10] protests. We have a report narrated by

[5:12] Vera Frankle of Worldwide Television

[5:15] News.

[5:18] It's almost as if Iraq is spoiling for

[5:20] trouble.

[5:22] Anti-UN demonstrations grow more

[5:24] hostile. UN weapons inspectors continue

[5:27] their sitin protest. The Iraqi

[5:30] government's refusal to let the

[5:31] inspectors into the agriculture ministry

[5:33] to search for ballistic missile

[5:35] documents is draining the security

[5:37] council's patience.

[5:39] Other Gulf War truce terms are also

[5:41] being violated. Iraq won't admit UN

[5:43] guards and relief workers.

[5:46] Britain's ambassador to the UN reflects

[5:48] the Security Council mood.

[5:50] >> More trouble is caused in international

[5:52] affairs by miscalculation than by

[5:54] calculation. and I'm afraid that the

[5:57] rulers in Baghdad are well known for

[5:59] their miscalculations and I just hope

[6:01] they're not making one now.

[6:03] >> Other senior UN diplomats are warning

[6:05] Iraq it faces tragic consequences if it

[6:08] doesn't observe the truce terms.

[6:11] Under consideration is a punitive

[6:12] multinational air strike to show Saddam

[6:15] the UN isn't all bark and no bite. The

[6:18] United Nations Security Council today

[6:20] voted unanimously to cut off foreign aid

[6:22] to Cambodia's Cam Rouge guerillas. The

[6:25] Cime Rouge are alone among the country's

[6:27] four waring factions in refusing to

[6:29] disarm under a UN peace plan. They are

[6:32] believed responsible for the deaths of a

[6:34] million people during their four-year

[6:36] rule in the late 1970s.

[6:38] Food and medicine began arriving again

[6:40] today in the Bosnian capital of Sievo,

[6:43] but continued fighting made the

[6:45] international airlift difficult and

[6:47] dangerous. The city's airport closed at

[6:50] least once during the day. Also today,

[6:53] UN officials accused the waring parties

[6:55] of a new disturbing tactic in their

[6:57] civil war. Terry Lloyd of Independent

[7:00] Television News reports from Sievo.

[7:03] As sporadic fighting continued around

[7:05] Sievo airport today, giving the new

[7:07] truce little chance of success, the UN's

[7:10] commander confirmed that the waring

[7:12] sides have shelled their own people to

[7:14] break previous ceasefires and blame the

[7:16] enemy. It's a callous tactic deployed to

[7:18] seek propaganda and to start fighting

[7:20] all over again. There have been rumors

[7:23] before, but now General Lewis McKenzie

[7:25] says the UN has evidence of such foul

[7:27] play. It's a little bizarre, but it if

[7:30] you have a particular agenda that uh

[7:33] that a message that you want to send to

[7:36] the world or you want to initiate a

[7:38] cover story or whatever, then there are

[7:40] some logical explanations to it from the

[7:42] point of view of what it what it does to

[7:44] your own people. It's got to be bizarre

[7:46] to the extreme. And as I said, I've

[7:48] never ever run into that before.

[7:51] >> So these poor people will never know if

[7:53] they were injured and maimed by the

[7:55] enemy or their so-called friends. The

[7:57] UN's information was gathered by simple

[7:59] observation, but this new turret-mounted

[8:02] machine known as Cobra will find out

[8:04] much more. It's a bombardment radar

[8:06] detector used normally to conduct

[8:08] counterattacks. But here in SVO, the

[8:10] peacekeeping forces will use it merely

[8:12] to spot the guilty parties and discover

[8:14] what artillery they're firing.

[8:16] Meanwhile, at the airport, the RAF nosed

[8:18] dive back in between gunfire to resume

[8:20] the muchneeded relief operations. They

[8:23] were cancelled yesterday when the base

[8:24] came under heavy attack, but the Air

[8:26] Force was on standby to return with all

[8:28] haste. Normally, they fly back empty,

[8:31] but this one had another mission to fly

[8:33] out a Canadian soldier who was shot at

[8:35] the airport yesterday. One of the next

[8:37] Hercules to return will be fing part of

[8:39] a million pound consignment of urgently

[8:42] needed medicines and medical supplies

[8:43] from Britain. The sanctions committee of

[8:46] the UN Security Council today banned

[8:49] Yuguslav teams from the summer Olympics.

[8:52] Individual Yugoslav athletes will be

[8:54] allowed to compete in the games which

[8:56] begin in Barcelona, Spain this week.

[8:59] Researchers at the International AIDS

[9:01] Conference said they've discovered a

[9:02] puzzling side effect of the AIDS

[9:04] epidemic, a new strain of tuberculosis

[9:07] that resists all forms of treatment. A

[9:09] researcher from Mexico said the new

[9:11] strain of TB is a threat to healthy

[9:13] people as well as AIDS patients.

[9:16] Tuberculosis is a highly contagious

[9:18] respiratory disease that spreads through

[9:20] the air.

[9:21] Two murder charges against Jack

[9:23] Kavorvorian, the so-called suicide

[9:25] doctor, were dismissed today by a

[9:27] Michigan judge. Kavorian was charged

[9:29] last year in the deaths of two women who

[9:32] were chronically ill. He's also assisted

[9:34] in two other deaths. In making his

[9:36] ruling, the judge ordered Kavorvorian to

[9:38] refrain from assisting in future

[9:40] suicides until the issue was resolved by

[9:42] the courts or legislature. And that's it

[9:45] for the news summary tonight. Now it's

[9:47] on to another go at peace in the Middle

[9:49] East and the school voucher debate.

[9:56] [music]

[10:00] The newest new move toward a Middle East

[10:03] peace is our lead story tonight. It

[10:05] started with the new government in

[10:07] Israel under Prime Minister Rabbine. He

[10:09] said he was ready to bargain with the

[10:11] Palestinians in the occupied territories

[10:13] and to halt most settlements there. US

[10:16] Secretary of State Jim Baker set off

[10:18] Sunday for Israel, Jordan, Syria, Egypt,

[10:21] and Saudi Arabia. Today, Rabbine met

[10:23] with Egyptian President Mubarak in the

[10:25] first Israeli Egyptian summit meeting in

[10:28] 6 years. Where is it all headed is the

[10:30] question we ask tonight. Our answers

[10:33] begin with a report from Cairo by Robert

[10:35] Moore of Independent Television News.

[10:43] >> [music]

[10:45] >> No Israeli leader has been to an Arab

[10:47] country for six years. Its hakrabin came

[10:50] just 7 days after taking office.

[10:52] Evidence of the extraordinary pace of

[10:54] diplomacy and of Rabbine's desire to

[10:57] inject real substance into the peace

[10:59] negotiations.

[11:01] Egypt is the only Arab country to have

[11:03] relations with Israel. And President

[11:05] Mubarak has been bold in declaring that

[11:07] Ravine is a man he believes Arabs can do

[11:10] business with. They talked for several

[11:12] hours. Two soldier politicians who have

[11:15] fought on opposite sides in three wars.

[11:18] Now with their focus on dialogue, they

[11:20] reflect mixture of real hope and

[11:22] caution. We are dealing now with new

[11:25] realities

[11:27] within a new framework but with the

[11:30] purpose to achieve peace that will give

[11:34] tranquility

[11:36] to progress and prosperity to all the

[11:39] people of the region. Bearing in mind

[11:43] that Mr. Rabin is still only one week in

[11:46] office.

[11:48] So we didn't go through so many details

[11:53] or ask for miracles. We exchanged views.

[12:01] The ironies of this visit were apparent

[12:03] when Rabbine visited the tomb of the

[12:04] unknown soldier. Many Egyptians have

[12:07] been killed in fighting Israeli forces

[12:09] under the command of Rabbine. But the

[12:12] tone of Middle East politics has changed

[12:14] in Caro. Today, the first moves towards

[12:16] a revitalized peace conference have been

[12:18] taken.

[12:20] >> Now, four perspectives on what's going

[12:22] on. Bill Brown, a career foreign service

[12:24] officer, recently retired as US

[12:26] ambassador to Israel. Muhammad Haki

[12:29] served as President Mubar Express

[12:31] secretary. He's now a journalist with

[12:33] the Saudi newspaper Okas. Shimon Shamir

[12:36] is a former Israeli ambassador to Egypt.

[12:38] He's now a fellow at the United States

[12:40] Institute of Peace. Khalil Sha Jashan is

[12:44] a Palestinian American who heads the

[12:46] National Association of ArabAmericans.

[12:48] He just returned from Jordan and Syria.

[12:51] Ambassador Brown, is this finally it as

[12:53] a real process in the works now? Well,

[12:56] we're off to a good start and I'm

[12:58] delighted uh seeing the media coverage

[13:02] to see that uh Mr. Rabine, Prime

[13:04] Minister Rabbine has handled himself

[13:07] well. Uh so have the Palestinians thus

[13:10] far. uh meeting with Secretary Baker in

[13:13] Jerusalem and of course this dramatic

[13:15] announcement by uh President Mubarak uh

[13:18] which is which highlights the very

[13:20] positive role in the process which Egypt

[13:24] can play. Uh one hears that King Hussein

[13:27] standing next to Secretary Baker today

[13:30] also played well and the big question is

[13:33] uh from my viewpoint Assad in Syria. Is

[13:37] that a big question from the Arab point

[13:39] of view, from the Palestinian point of

[13:40] view, Mr. Josh?

[13:42] >> Uh, basically I think there is optimism

[13:44] on the Palestinian side for Secretary

[13:47] Baker's visit to the region. The fact

[13:49] that Palestinians have been impatiently

[13:51] waiting for the results of the Israeli

[13:52] elections to restart the process. So the

[13:55] visit was crucial uh in this respect.

[13:58] has is is prime min from the Palestinian

[14:01] point of view is is has Prime Minister

[14:04] Rabin doing all the right things so far?

[14:07] >> Not necessarily. I I think thus far from

[14:09] a Palestinian perspective, what has been

[14:11] heard from Rabin is actually less than

[14:14] what we've heard from him during the

[14:16] election campaign. uh his uh the

[14:19] Palestinians were generally left

[14:21] discouraged uh by his inaugural address

[14:24] in the sense that he has left some key

[14:25] elements out of of that speech and and

[14:27] they resented to a certain degree the

[14:29] threatening note of of of that speech.

[14:32] They would have liked, for example,

[14:33] instead of theatrical gestures as

[14:36] inviting Arab leaders to Jerusalem and

[14:38] expressing willingness to visit Arab

[14:39] capitals, they would have preferred some

[14:41] very specific and tangible steps taken

[14:43] by the Israeli side in response to the

[14:46] rather dismal situation in terms of

[14:48] human rights abuses in the occupied

[14:50] territories.

[14:51] >> From an Israeli point of view, is it

[14:53] considered that Mr. Rabin has already

[14:55] taken some big steps?

[14:56] >> Absolutely. Must remember that he is a

[14:59] new prime minister. His government was

[15:00] inaugurated only few days ago and uh he

[15:04] already had a very important meeting

[15:05] with Baker that moves the process

[15:07] forward. A very important meeting with

[15:09] Mubarak. The government has made

[15:11] important decisions on the freezing of

[15:14] settlements of most settlements. Um uh

[15:17] there was a test to this government at

[15:20] the Naj University when there was a

[15:22] confrontation with Palestinians and I

[15:23] think Robin showed by solving

[15:26] diplomatically that problem that he's

[15:27] not seeking a conflictual uh policy

[15:30] towards the Palestinians. There is now

[15:32] talk about joining the multilateral

[15:35] committees that the previous government

[15:38] um avoided participating in. uh in other

[15:40] words in a very short time um both a

[15:43] substantial uh steps forward and also

[15:46] signals indicating further steps forward

[15:50] toward the solution of the problem.

[15:51] >> Mr. Hake the Egyptians are now cast in a

[15:54] very key role in this are they not how

[15:56] do you how does the how does President I

[15:58] know you don't speak for President

[15:59] Mubarak but what what's the Egyptian

[16:01] view of where things rest right now what

[16:04] what Mr. Rabbine has done, what the Arab

[16:06] response has been, and what the

[16:07] prospects are.

[16:09] >> I think for us, it has always been ever

[16:11] since 1967. The crucial question has

[16:14] been and still is, how are we going to

[16:17] coexist with each other? I think there

[16:19] is a, as everybody is saying here today,

[16:22] there is a good feeling. There's a new

[16:24] beginning. The fact that the Israeli

[16:26] voters have chosen the road to peace

[16:30] means that they have buried the idea of

[16:32] the greater Israel once and for all.

[16:34] There are quite a number of leaders in

[16:35] the Labor party who are doubbish and who

[16:38] really believe in land for peace. That

[16:40] is another

[16:41] >> of course it's Mr. Rabbine's party the

[16:42] Labor party right?

[16:43] >> This is Mr. Rabin's party. So we

[16:45] generally feel that Egypt has always

[16:48] played the role of the catalyst because

[16:50] when America uses the word catalyst we

[16:52] think it's insulting for America and for

[16:54] us. If there is a catalyst, it is Egypt

[16:56] that has brought both sides, the Jews

[16:59] and the Arabs closer to the sense of

[17:03] realism in in the whole business.

[17:05] >> Well, Mr. Shamir, uh Mr. Rabin has said

[17:08] that he feels as you just uh outlined

[17:11] that that he's taken some steps now and

[17:13] now the next moves are up to the Arabs.

[17:15] What specifically

[17:17] does does he have in mind? What do you

[17:18] think that the next step should be by

[17:20] the Arabs to move this thing along?

[17:23] Well, I can't say what is exactly in

[17:24] Robin's mind, but I can tell you what

[17:26] the expectations in Israel are. There

[17:28] are expectations that uh the first step

[17:31] would be the um cancellation of the Arab

[17:34] boycott. This is something that was

[17:38] raised even before the new government

[17:41] was inaugurated. The boycott and

[17:43] companies that trade with Israel is

[17:45] illegal essentially. And this could be a

[17:47] gesture showing that the Arabs are also

[17:50] ready for a new approach.

[17:52] >> What about that, Mr. Josh? Why don't

[17:54] they why doesn't the Arab world just do

[17:56] that and get that behind him and move

[17:58] on?

[17:58] >> Well, actually the the whole idea of

[18:00] exchanging cancellation of the boycott

[18:03] in return for some Israeli gesture

[18:05] regarding the settlements was an Arab

[18:06] idea. It was proposed by Egypt initially

[18:09] and was adopted by several Arab parties

[18:11] uh to the negotiating process. uh what

[18:14] they are awaiting for is some

[18:15] unequivocal uh policy commitment or

[18:18] decision on the part of the Israeli

[18:20] government to freeze to freeze all

[18:23] Jewish settlements in the occupied

[18:24] territories or something close to a

[18:26] total freeze. Uh we have heard some

[18:28] positive statements from Mr. Rabin as he

[18:31] assumed the position of prime minister

[18:33] in Israel uh and in the last couple of

[18:36] days since he embarked on his visit to

[18:38] Egypt regarding the settlements. But

[18:39] these statements are still not clear. I

[18:42] mean, I'm not privy to the details of

[18:43] what was shared with Secretary Baker,

[18:45] but it still falls short of an Arab

[18:48] response to basically cancel the boy,

[18:49] but I think the Arab parties have

[18:51] reached that decision uh several months

[18:54] ago when they made that proposal.

[18:55] >> And Master Brown, you are an experienced

[18:57] diplomat. I am not. It seems to me

[18:59] listening not only what these gentlemen

[19:01] have said, but also what have what has

[19:03] come out of the region itself from the

[19:05] amounts of officials that these folks

[19:07] are not very far apart on this

[19:08] particular issue, are they? Well,

[19:11] [clears throat] it's that last uh it's

[19:13] that last 20% or 10% or 2% that so often

[19:18] uh befules us and frustrates us uh in

[19:21] this business. But uh certainly the

[19:23] signs are there. I mentioned before uh

[19:26] another key component and that is the

[19:28] Syrian aspect to this. you know, uh, the

[19:32] late, uh, King Abdullah, I believe it

[19:34] was, said many years ago before he was

[19:37] assassinated by Palestinians up at Alaka

[19:39] mosque, uh, in, uh, in Jerusalem, that

[19:43] uh, in the context of that time, you

[19:45] couldn't make war without Egypt and you

[19:47] couldn't make peace without Syria. Now,

[19:50] the Syrian uh Israeli uh dispute over

[19:54] the Golan and the Syrian role currently

[19:57] in Lebanon. Today's news uh reports

[20:00] reports further fighting in South

[20:02] Lebanon. Uh the prospects of elections

[20:05] in uh Lebanon, should I say Syrian

[20:09] style. Uh the implementation or uh

[20:13] partial implementation of the Taif

[20:15] Accord. the Syrian role at this time at

[20:18] this time I think can be very very

[20:19] important. We ought to focus on it.

[20:21] >> But what about the specific question

[20:23] here though that that was just raised

[20:25] and that is okay the the Israelis are

[20:28] ready for the Arab world to lift the

[20:30] boycott and the Arab world is ready for

[20:34] is Israel to freeze the settlements. I

[20:37] mean that seems that's what I was

[20:38] speaking of specifically that the ground

[20:41] there is even less than the 2 in is it

[20:43] not? It's uh it's fairly close. You have

[20:46] to reckon, however, that uh there are

[20:49] over 100,000 Israelis now living already

[20:52] in those settlements. They produce

[20:55] children and uh they will have their

[20:58] incremental housing demands, a bedroom

[21:00] here and a road here and a water line

[21:03] there and so forth. So, I don't think

[21:04] you're going to see an absolute uh zero

[21:08] total freeze on everything up in in the

[21:11] settlements, but you can get awfully

[21:13] close to it. And I think you can do the

[21:14] trick.

[21:14] >> You agree with that, Mr. Shamir?

[21:16] >> Yes. I think the exceptions are not

[21:18] substantial. They include such things as

[21:21] accommodating natural growth of

[21:24] settlements already existing. There are

[21:26] a lot of technical problems. It must be

[21:28] understood Rabin inherited 16,500

[21:34] uh housing units under construction. Now

[21:37] there are a lot of legal problems,

[21:39] financial problems involved here and the

[21:42] government is seriously studying it with

[21:44] the purpose of eventually uh freezing

[21:48] all political settlements at least this

[21:51] excludes Jerusalem and

[21:52] >> Mr. Does that does that make sense to

[21:54] you that the Egypt might have a role in

[21:56] here to come in and figure out a way to

[21:59] rock walk this middle ground that that

[22:01] would satisfy both parties? The lifting

[22:03] of the Arab could could it could it for

[22:06] instance could could Egypt do you think

[22:07] have any influence in getting Syria to

[22:10] agree uh to lifting the uh the boycott

[22:13] on Israel in exchange for the

[22:15] settlements thing some element of

[22:17] freezing and is that does this make

[22:18] sense to you? In other words, uh Egypt

[22:21] has always always from the from the very

[22:23] beginning played the role of bringing

[22:25] you know incrementally the sides closer

[22:28] together whether it was at Madrid both

[22:31] Egypt and Saudi Arabia played a law role

[22:33] in in bringing their sides together and

[22:35] the questions that have always been

[22:36] asked of the Arabs they have done it

[22:38] including the last you know this last 24

[22:40] hours when Mr. Baker asked Nanashawi and

[22:42] the Palestinian delegation that you

[22:45] should uh in a sense accept that America

[22:47] would give Israel the loan guarantees.

[22:50] Uh don't make a fuss about it now. Uh we

[22:53] are still adamant in our position about

[22:55] the interpretation of the settlements

[22:56] and and uh we are not they are not going

[22:58] to expand and so on. Uh Egypt has always

[23:01] played the role of going to the Syrians,

[23:03] going to the Palestinians, going to the

[23:04] other Arabs and saying uh we are not

[23:07] dealing with a normal situation. We have

[23:09] somehow to walk with America because

[23:13] this is an extremely difficult problem

[23:16] for the president domestically and for

[23:18] the Israelis. If we have a formula that

[23:21] you don't give up any part of your land

[23:23] in exchange for real peace, then why

[23:25] not?

[23:26] >> Mhm.

[23:26] >> It is still in its embryo, still new,

[23:29] but it can be done.

[23:30] >> And I realize we can't negotiate the

[23:32] deal here. I'm not trying to do that.

[23:33] But uh the uh Mr. Ti mentioned the loan

[23:36] guarantees thing and all the all the the

[23:40] speculation is that Mr. Rabine is is on

[23:43] a course where he's going to get those.

[23:45] Now, we must have explained if people

[23:46] may may have forgotten what that issue

[23:48] is. It's a it's a $10 billion deal to

[23:51] loan guarantees to the United States to

[23:53] guarantee housing in Israel for for Jews

[23:57] who have come over from the Soviet

[23:58] Union. Now, the Palestinians have said,

[24:01] "Oh, if the United States does that,

[24:03] then uh they'll walk out of the peace

[24:06] process." Now, where does that stand as

[24:08] we speak? Something

[24:09] >> I'm not sure that the Palestinians have

[24:11] taken a position that they would walk

[24:12] out should the US grant guarantees. I

[24:14] think uh they certainly would do so if

[24:16] these loan guarantees are granted to

[24:18] Israel cart munch without any sort of

[24:22] conditioning. But the administration has

[24:24] made it very clear from the very

[24:25] beginning uh in a very forceful manner

[24:27] and risky manner uh during an election

[24:29] year that they will not grant Israel

[24:31] these loan guarantees unless Israel uh

[24:34] takes some very tough uh position on on

[24:37] freezing settlements and I hope that the

[24:40] administration is is still sticking with

[24:42] its position and all indications point

[24:45] in that direction.

[24:46] >> Mr. Shamir reading my just reading today

[24:48] I got the impression that from that Mr.

[24:50] Haki also just reflected that this is

[24:53] also a surmountable problem. Would you

[24:56] agree with that?

[24:56] >> I think it's absolutely a surmountable

[24:58] problem. uh without being privy to the

[25:02] talks between Secretary Baker and Prime

[25:04] Minister Radin uh the impression

[25:07] um projected by both of them uh is that

[25:12] they are moving ahead and perhaps in

[25:14] August we shall hear uh the final

[25:17] proclamation about granting the loan

[25:19] guarantees u on the basis of the kind of

[25:23] settlement freeze that Rabin is working

[25:26] out now

[25:26] >> and the kind of settlement freeze that

[25:28] would be acceptable

[25:29] uh that would make the loan guarantees

[25:31] acceptable to the Palestinian. Does this

[25:33] make sense to you, Mr. Ambassador?

[25:34] >> It certainly does. And there's another

[25:36] aspect as well, and that is uh some

[25:39] extra conditionality possible that is

[25:42] that the Israelis take those tough

[25:44] measures for internal internal economic

[25:46] reform which we've been waiting so long.

[25:49] >> And and how is that how is that tied

[25:51] into the loan guarantee? could be uh

[25:53] that could be added as a condition that

[25:56] we would like to see them fulfill those

[25:58] programs to which Mr. Rabine uh has uh

[26:01] associated himself uh in addition to

[26:05] firm guarantees that not one penny of

[26:07] the US taxpayers's money will go into

[26:10] anything like settlements or uh that

[26:12] aspect. I want to ask each one of you

[26:14] beginning with you Mr. Hi now from this

[26:16] point on now the everything up till now

[26:19] has been very slow and tedious. There's

[26:21] no question about it in terms of even

[26:23] getting to where we are. I mean, putting

[26:25] together a program like this on the

[26:26] McNeel NewsHour would have been

[26:28] difficult, you know, not too many years

[26:31] ago. So, there been things have been

[26:33] happening, but it's all been very slow

[26:35] and tedious. Is are we to a point now

[26:38] where there could be some major dramatic

[26:40] breakthroughs like a Camp David Accord

[26:42] or something like that, or is it going

[26:44] to remain slow and tedious?

[26:47] Quite honestly, I think the answer lies

[26:49] in if there is a new spirit in Israel.

[26:53] What we were waiting for is a change in

[26:56] the tone. The Israelis used to tell us

[26:57] in 1967, 1973, we are in the Middle

[27:00] East, but not of it. We belong to the

[27:03] West culturally, politically,

[27:04] historically, and so on. There is a new

[27:07] generation of better educated Israelis,

[27:09] Sabbras born in Israel, who are looking

[27:11] at the situation in a different way. Are

[27:13] they in the ascendancy? are they going

[27:16] to be the ones who are going to sit

[27:17] across the table with us? Uh we sat you

[27:20] know Egypt had the longest experience

[27:23] with this sat with them in in Camp David

[27:26] long hours. Uh they used to tell us why

[27:30] are you making such a fuss about these

[27:31] settlements? They are all bedroom

[27:32] communities. There are only 10,000

[27:34] people that we cannot even fill them.

[27:36] There were only 12,000 uh housing units

[27:38] at that time. And so the question is not

[27:41] whether we going to have 100,000 or or

[27:43] less or more. The question is how are we

[27:45] going to coexist with each other as

[27:47] equals with mutual respect or what?

[27:51] >> Ambassador Shamir, how would you answer

[27:52] that question?

[27:53] >> I would like to react to two points in

[27:55] Mr. Hak's uh uh explanation of the

[27:58] situation. Uh first, he's absolutely

[28:01] right that this government represents a

[28:03] different cross-section of Israeli

[28:05] society. I don't know if many um in the

[28:08] Arab world noticed that except for one

[28:10] or two, all ministers in this government

[28:13] were either born in Israel or were born

[28:16] in one of the Arab countries of the

[28:17] region uh like like Yemen, Iraq and

[28:20] Morocco. Uh I think this is quite

[28:23] significant.

[28:23] >> So they are of the world.

[28:24] >> They are of our region. Absolutely. And

[28:27] I think this adds a new perspective to

[28:30] what we have already said about the new

[28:31] spirit and the new orientation. Second,

[28:34] yes, it was true that at one point there

[28:36] were only 10,000 uh settlers. This was

[28:39] the time when both Israel and the United

[28:42] States proposed to the Palestinians and

[28:44] to others to start a serious uh process

[28:48] based on the Camdavid uh accords. Uh at

[28:52] the time, this was about 10 years ago,

[28:54] it was rejected by the Palestinians. Now

[28:55] we have more settlers. We have greater

[28:57] problems.

[28:58] >> Yeah. But do you believe that we that uh

[29:01] we're we may have a major breakthrough

[29:02] or it's going to be slow over take a

[29:04] while?

[29:05] >> Well, I uh am afraid a little bit that

[29:07] our discussion will here will project an

[29:10] overly optimistic or unrealistic uh uh

[29:14] image of what is uh waiting uh for us.

[29:18] It is going to be a very difficult

[29:20] process of negotiations. There are many

[29:23] very sensitive issues involved here. Um,

[29:26] if anybody wishes, he can see this by

[29:29] comparing the two documents that were

[29:32] put on the table by the Israelis and the

[29:34] Palestinians in the previous rounds of

[29:36] the talks. How each side envisages the

[29:41] uh self administration in the

[29:43] territories. There is very wide gap

[29:45] separating positions, a long way to go.

[29:48] You agree?

[29:49] >> Uh yes, I do agree. I don't think uh we

[29:51] do expect a breakthrough. uh what we

[29:53] expect to see is probably some easier

[29:55] time with the Rabin government in terms

[29:57] of dealing with the transitional period.

[29:59] I think he would be more cooperative

[30:01] with the sponsors of of the negotiating

[30:03] process and with his counterparts in

[30:05] terms of putting in place a

[30:07] self-government authority during those

[30:09] first three years of the peace process.

[30:11] Once we get to the final status, I think

[30:13] we're going to hit hit a wall as

[30:14] stubborn as Mr. to Shamir maybe on

[30:16] different basis but it's going to be a

[30:18] very very difficult protracted

[30:20] negotiating process that will take at

[30:22] least 5 years and probably 3 to 5 years

[30:25] of implementation there is no

[30:26] breakthrough expected in the near future

[30:28] pastor Brown

[30:29] >> I don't dispute that at the same time

[30:32] there's an extra element an earthquake

[30:34] has occurred in the Middle East with

[30:36] this Gulf Iraqi war we're seeing the

[30:39] proliferation of weapons of mass

[30:41] destruction and the means of delivery

[30:43] and as one who sat there uh during the

[30:46] Iraqi Scut attacks on Tel Aviv uh a year

[30:49] ago. I can testify that while so much of

[30:52] it has evaporated in the minds of the

[30:55] rest of the world, Israelis feel very

[30:57] vulnerable uh having gone through that

[30:59] experience of scuds bursting uh around

[31:03] their heads. We've all got to move this

[31:05] thing notwithstanding the well-known uh

[31:08] difficulties philosophical, political,

[31:11] cultural and so forth. But I think we

[31:13] have to apply full force effort. Uh

[31:17] tedious it will be. I hope it'll be a

[31:19] little faster this time than it was

[31:21] before because lurking just over the

[31:24] horizon are tremendously important

[31:26] developments uh that are uh great menace

[31:30] to all concern. All of them are hurting

[31:32] economically. the debt, inflation, and

[31:35] economic situations of all of these

[31:38] players uh is uh is something that they

[31:42] they can do without.

[31:43] >> In a word, it's in everybody's best

[31:46] interest to get on with it as quickly as

[31:48] possible.

[31:48] >> It certainly is. As quickly as possible.

[31:50] >> Does everybody know that?

[31:52] >> Let's hope so.

[31:52] >> All right, we'll find out. Gentlemen,

[31:54] thank you all for

[32:00] >> [music]

[32:05] >> Next tonight, state sponsored gambling.

[32:08] Many states caught in the familiar

[32:10] squeeze of ambitious programs and

[32:12] declining revenues are turning to

[32:14] state-run games of chance to reverse

[32:16] their financial fortunes. The trouble is

[32:18] the states may soon be in cutthroat

[32:20] competition with each other. And with

[32:22] charities and Native American tribes

[32:24] that also rely on gambling to raise

[32:26] funds. Lee Hawkberg has details from

[32:29] Oregon Public Broadcasting in Portland.

[32:37] >> Tonight we're a little bit in the hole,

[32:39] but we might get it back before we go

[32:41] home. We're doing

[32:42] >> It's the third time this week Peggy

[32:43] Turner and Edith Campbell have come to

[32:45] Joe's Seller in Portland to try their

[32:47] hand at staterun video poker. I asked my

[32:50] son, I said, "Do you think I'm going to

[32:52] be able to live on my retirement, my

[32:54] interest, without hitting my principal?"

[32:56] He's a mother that depends on how long

[32:58] you go.

[33:00] >> No, I bet you.

[33:01] >> Come on. Those streets aren't any good

[33:04] at all.

[33:05] >> The two widows often went to Nevada to

[33:07] gamble. Now they and thousands of other

[33:10] Oregon residents can play games of

[33:12] chance right in their neighborhood. In

[33:14] the first two months after the state

[33:15] opened video poker, Oregonians dumped

[33:18] $32 million into the machine.

[33:21] >> In the last minute, how much money have

[33:23] you gone through?

[33:25] >> Easy to probably say5 or $10.

[33:28] >> The state plans to have 7,000 poker

[33:31] machines in taverns by year's end.

[33:33] Meanwhile, it's beaming kino games into

[33:35] taverns and convenience stores, luring

[33:38] as much as 2.5 million additional

[33:40] dollars per week. It's gunning for $125

[33:43] million in gambling revenues this year,

[33:46] helped by an aggressive ad campaign.

[33:47] [music]

[33:49] >> The top 100 most excellent things to do.

[33:54] Number 12,

[33:56] washing those hardto-reach places.

[34:01] Number 85,

[34:03] Monte Carlo.

[34:05] It

[34:05] >> It just kills me that the state not only

[34:08] permits it, but they promote it. Well,

[34:10] they they buy T TV advertising to

[34:13] encourage people here in Oregon to buy

[34:16] lottery tickets and secure the

[34:19] opportunity of a vast relief to their

[34:22] financial wos. It It's disgusting.

[34:26] >> Former Oregon Governor Bob Stra laments

[34:29] the state's new reliance on gambling.

[34:31] But Oregon isn't alone. In three short

[34:33] years, legal gambling has exploded into

[34:36] a $26 billion a year industry in the US.

[34:39] 34 states now offer state-run

[34:42] lotteryies. Million-dollar purses in one

[34:44] state are met by $2 million purses in

[34:46] bordering states. 12 states offer casino

[34:49] style gambling.

[34:52] New riverboat casinos steam up and down

[34:54] the Mississippi in Illinois,

[34:56] Mississippi, and Louisiana. And in

[34:58] Chicago, Mayor Richard Daly is pushing

[35:00] for a $2 billion four casino complex

[35:03] downtown

[35:04] >> for one reason. Jobs. Jobs. Jobs. jobs.

[35:10] It's 10,000 construction jobs.

[35:12] >> Well, you can start with a quote out of

[35:14] Hemingway that his definition of a

[35:16] banana republic was one where the trains

[35:18] never ran on time and you could buy

[35:19] lottery tickets in the street. I think

[35:21] we've moved well beyond that.

[35:23] >> Economist Bill Eington of the University

[35:25] of Nevada says it's only the beginning

[35:27] of an avalanche of legalized gambling.

[35:30] >> You will probably find casinos in much

[35:32] the same way you find bars and taverns

[35:34] or theaters. Uh, this is one conceivable

[35:37] possibility that people will be able to

[35:39] gamble at their corner 7-Eleven store or

[35:42] convenience store.

[35:43] >> Churches actively involved in bingo no

[35:46] longer offer moral opposition. Tax

[35:48] rebellions and reduced federal funding

[35:50] have left gaping holes in state budgets.

[35:53] Betting dollars are ripe for the taking.

[35:56] >> The things that we're doing with the

[35:57] lottery money are absolutely essential.

[36:00] It's keeping Oregon's head above the

[36:02] water. The head of the Oregon

[36:04] legislaturator's economic development

[36:06] committee says gambling revenue has been

[36:08] a savior. Oregon faces a looming billion

[36:11] dollar deficit after state voters capped

[36:14] property taxes last year. We help

[36:16] provide the loan and grant money that

[36:18] built a senior retirement center out of

[36:20] an old hotel. We built $80 million worth

[36:23] of prisons. Without lottery dollars, you

[36:26] would see no economic initiative being

[36:28] taken in this state because the state

[36:30] general fund is broke. The state put 16

[36:34] million lottery dollars toward

[36:35] Portland's light rail system, 15 million

[36:38] to a new convention center, even some to

[36:40] acquire TV programs [music] aired on

[36:42] Oregon Public Television.

[36:44] >> Funding for tonight's programming has

[36:46] been provided in part by the Oregon

[36:48] Lottery.

[36:50] >> But we can look at say one typical

[36:52] occupation

[36:53] >> and loggers in dying logging towns

[36:55] across Oregon utilize a lottery funded

[36:58] logger retraining program.

[37:01] Dave Sulik is studying to become an

[37:03] emergency medical technician.

[37:05] >> If it wasn't for the program and the

[37:06] help I've received down there, I

[37:07] wouldn't be here. There's no question

[37:08] about it. I wouldn't be in school today.

[37:10] >> Maybe we ought to charge prostitutes and

[37:12] and encourage them to come to the state

[37:15] of Oregon and get revenues from them to

[37:17] support desirable, legitimate

[37:20] activities.

[37:21] >> Critics like former Governor Strob say

[37:23] shifting the cost of government onto the

[37:25] backs of those who gamble is unfair.

[37:28] >> All right, let's try one more time. One,

[37:32] two.

[37:33] >> They add the availability of easy

[37:35] gambling money has set off a feeding

[37:37] frenzy for legislators hungry to bring

[37:39] home the poor. Oregon State

[37:41] Representative Mike Burton. There were

[37:43] legislators who'd come up to me and say,

[37:45] "Mike, I know this is a bad policy. I

[37:46] know the state shouldn't get in this

[37:48] business, but if I don't take this home

[37:49] with me, I'll never get reelected.

[37:52] Addiction is is already upon us. There's

[37:54] just no doubt about that."

[37:55] >> They act basically the same way I did

[37:58] when I was gambling.

[38:00] more faster and better.

[38:03] Um,

[38:05] just keep it coming. Keep that money

[38:07] coming. And if the money slows down,

[38:10] then bring another game in to get some

[38:11] more.

[38:12] >> Recovering gambling addicts say the

[38:14] pervasiveness of state poker is making

[38:16] it harder for them to go straight. Kathy

[38:19] Jane was penniless after selling most of

[38:21] her valuables for gambling money. She

[38:23] says the fast-moving video poker is far

[38:25] more addictive than traditional once a

[38:28] week lottery drawing.

[38:30] >> It's it's a rush. It's like a shot of

[38:31] adrenaline. Um it's a high uh and I see

[38:36] people playing and yeah, it it creates

[38:39] an urge for me to go play.

[38:42] >> It's more fun than than lotto or uh kino

[38:45] or any of those things cuz it's quicker,

[38:47] you know, more action. Yeah, it's more

[38:49] action. State lottery director Jim Davyy

[38:52] answers that even before the state went

[38:54] into the poker business, Oregon gamblers

[38:56] wagered $100 million a year on illegal

[39:00] video games.

[39:01] >> I think there's a percentage of people

[39:03] out there that can't control their

[39:05] gambling and they're going to have that

[39:07] problem whether there's a lottery or

[39:09] not.

[39:09] >> He says under new state policy, Oregon

[39:12] at least allocates $10 million from

[39:14] gambling revenues for treatment

[39:16] programs. We don't want Oregon to become

[39:19] another Vegas arena. Do you?

[39:23] >> No, not really. And please sign the way

[39:25] it is.

[39:26] >> Petitioners are combing Oregon streets,

[39:28] gathering signatures for a ballot

[39:30] measure that would ban video poker.

[39:32] Meanwhile, Strob and another former

[39:34] governor, Vicatia, have sued the state,

[39:37] charging the new games actually turn

[39:39] taverns into casinos, which are

[39:41] prohibited under the state constitution.

[39:43] But even if Oregon voters snuff out

[39:45] gambling there, all signs are the surge

[39:48] will continue in other states. [music]

[39:54] >> In Washington state, legislators are

[39:57] being lobbied to approve a plan to erect

[39:59] 18 casinos for charity casino nights

[40:02] like this event. A Canadian company

[40:04] pushing the plan says in exchange for

[40:07] 45% of the take, it would help nonprofit

[40:10] groups stage more profitable

[40:11] fundraisers.

[40:13] All of the volunteers here tonight,

[40:15] although they're well-meaning, they're

[40:17] making mistakes throughout the night,

[40:20] they're slow. Um, and it's just not an

[40:23] efficient night to actually raise funds

[40:25] for charity.

[40:26] >> How are we doing? Are we making money?

[40:28] Are we losing?

[40:29] >> Mulligans is your most profitable area

[40:31] right now.

[40:32] >> Profiting?

[40:33] >> Yeah.

[40:33] >> Oh, I thought we were losing. Good.

[40:35] After three months of hard work netted

[40:37] only $4,000 for his group, the organizer

[40:40] of this event says he'd welcome the

[40:42] Canadian professionals. A prospect that

[40:45] makes Washington Attorney General Ken

[40:46] Iikenberry shudder. Our concern is that

[40:50] we're moving from a small potatoes

[40:51] gambling which doesn't carry the

[40:53] prospect of organized crime and

[40:55] racketeering to very largecale large

[40:59] cash flow gambling which has great

[41:02] potential [snorts]

[41:02] for infiltration by organized criminal

[41:04] activity.

[41:09] More than 75 Indian tribes are also

[41:12] getting in on the action. The Federal

[41:14] Indian Gaming Act permits them to

[41:15] operate casinos if similar games are

[41:18] already taking place in the state. At

[41:20] the Lummy Nation in Washington State,

[41:22] where dwindling salmon runs threaten the

[41:24] livelihoods of 700 tribal fishermen,

[41:27] many at this salmon ceremony are

[41:29] grateful that gambling has come to the

[41:31] reservation.

[41:33] >> The work here is is is [snorts] steady.

[41:36] Uh I enjoy the job and it's

[41:38] >> here in the casino. Yeah, here in the

[41:40] casino, it's just more reliable income.

[41:43] >> Frederick Lane fished for the last 20

[41:45] years, but this summer he'll deal cards

[41:48] at the Lumy's new $3 million casino.

[41:51] >> I don't want a gambling casino in my

[41:54] backyard.

[41:55] >> With the push to gamble on the increase,

[41:58] the real issue is becoming who should be

[42:00] allowed to benefit from it. In Salem,

[42:02] Oregon, the Selet's Indians are facing

[42:04] resistance as they try to take advantage

[42:06] of the Indian Gaming Act and open a

[42:09] small casino. But she is sitting in

[42:11] judgment, a moral judgment of us to do

[42:13] what we have a legal right to do.

[42:16] >> The tribe needs final approval from the

[42:18] state government, but Oregon Governor

[42:20] Barbara Roberts is fighting the plan,

[42:22] saying it violates the state's ban on

[42:24] casinos. that despite the fact she

[42:26] allows her own government to earn

[42:28] millions of dollars off poker and kino

[42:30] games, Roberts refused repeated requests

[42:33] for interview.

[42:34] >> I don't see how we can turn around to

[42:35] the to the seleions and say, "No, you

[42:37] can't put a you can't put a bingo parlor

[42:39] down in Salem." Uh, but by the way,

[42:40] right across the street, we're going to

[42:42] have, you know, we're going to have a

[42:43] offtrack gutting parlor with video

[42:45] machines and so on and so forth. That's

[42:46] ludicrous and hypocritical.

[42:48] >> Competition for the gambling dollar will

[42:50] only get fiercer. Already developers in

[42:53] New Orleans and Hartford, Connecticut

[42:55] have announced plans to bring in urban

[42:57] casinos. That says economist Edington

[43:00] could be a bigger gamble than anyone

[43:02] bargained for.

[43:03] >> There is going to be a very serious

[43:04] issue of what happens when you put wide

[43:06] openen casino style gambling in the

[43:08] middle of a major urban population

[43:09] center. North America has no experience

[43:11] whatsoever with this phenomenon. And the

[43:14] the implications either for problem

[43:16] gambling or for related forms of crime

[43:19] are as yet undiscovered. Government

[43:21] leaders will deal with that later. For

[43:23] now, with lots of red ink showing, it's

[43:26] the familiar gamblers refrain. Shut up

[43:29] and deal.

[43:34] [music]

[43:40] Finally tonight, the hottest education

[43:43] issue in the presidential election

[43:44] debates. President Bush's proposal to

[43:47] provide vouchers to lowincome families

[43:49] to use on the school of their choice.

[43:51] The plan would provide half a billion

[43:53] dollars of federal funding already

[43:55] earmarked for education. Families who

[43:58] qualified would receive $1,000 towards

[44:00] tuition at a public or private school.

[44:03] The president pushed the plan in

[44:04] Philadelphia today at a Catholic high

[44:06] school. Our GI bill for children is not

[44:12] conceived out of denigration for the

[44:15] public school system.

[44:17] Indeed, the way our proposal works, it

[44:19] would enhance and strengthen the public

[44:22] schools as well as providing choice for

[44:25] for the families that want to send their

[44:27] kids to parochial schools, to private

[44:29] schools, be they religious or not. And

[44:32] so we've got a good proposal and I

[44:35] support it all the way and I will fight

[44:38] for it and I believe that it'll make all

[44:41] schools better, not just those that are

[44:43] that are uh selected by the people who

[44:47] who participate in this in this

[44:49] marvelous program. But here is an issue

[44:52] upon which I have a distinct difference

[44:54] with my opponent and uh I will be making

[44:57] that case not not in a negative way but

[44:59] saying here's what I am for here's what

[45:02] I am going to fight for and if you

[45:04] believe in this you [snorts] ought to

[45:06] you ought to vote for not only for me

[45:08] but for members of the United States

[45:10] Congress whose support is going to be

[45:12] necessary to pass this legislation. The

[45:16] president said his school choice

[45:17] proposal was stalled in Congress because

[45:20] it is opposed by the National Education

[45:22] Association, the country's largest

[45:24] teachers union. Earlier this month,

[45:26] Governor Clinton addressed the NEA's

[45:28] annual convention and explained why he's

[45:31] against any direct or indirect federal

[45:33] aid to private or parochial schools.

[45:36] I believe in the course cause of school

[45:39] reform. I will challenge all of you to

[45:41] enlist in it. I want us to continue to

[45:43] have honest debates about the dimensions

[45:46] of school restructuring and empowering

[45:49] teachers and principles and how much

[45:51] public school choice there ought to be.

[45:53] But we shouldn't give our private money

[45:55] away to private schools in a system that

[45:57] will undermine the integrity of the

[45:59] public school system.

[46:02] So I don't think we can afford to siphon

[46:05] our money off. I don't mind good,

[46:07] healthy competition. If private schools

[46:08] want to get up and get going, let them

[46:10] have at it. Let anybody who thinks they

[46:13] can do a good job in education and meet

[46:15] standards and have their kids measure up

[46:17] get after it. I just don't think that

[46:19] with the situation we're in now, we can

[46:20] afford to divert public funds to private

[46:23] schools when we're already

[46:24] uncompetitive.

[46:26] >> Here to debate these ideas, we have two

[46:28] views. Lamar Alexander is the Secretary

[46:31] of Education and the key proponent of

[46:33] the president's choice plan. Governor

[46:35] Roy Ror of Colorado has worked closely

[46:38] with Governor Bill Clinton on education

[46:40] reform. He opposes using federal funding

[46:42] for private schools. Secretary

[46:45] Alexander, the president, we just heard

[46:47] him say today that his proposal would

[46:49] enhance and strengthen the public

[46:51] schools. How would it do that?

[46:53] >> Well, let's take the example of uh

[46:55] Denver. Since Governor R is here, Denver

[46:58] wants to participate in the GI bill for

[46:59] kids, it could apply. And uh then there

[47:02] are about 40,000 children in Denver,

[47:04] about 62% of all of those who attend

[47:07] elementary and secondary schools of any

[47:09] kind who would receive a $1,000

[47:11] scholarship. That money would then go to

[47:14] the school their parents feel uh meets

[47:17] the needs of those children the best. Or

[47:20] it could go also to other academic

[47:23] programs such as afterchool programs,

[47:25] Saturday or summer academic programs

[47:26] that add to the child's education. the

[47:29] money can go to public as well as

[47:32] private schools. And so it provides the

[47:34] impetus for change, for opening a school

[47:36] to seven, for adding a program, for uh

[47:39] retraining teachers, and consumer power

[47:42] that gives parents a chance to say,

[47:44] "This school doesn't help my child. I

[47:46] want to move down the street to the

[47:47] other public school, and when I go, the

[47:50] $1,000 moves with me, or to the other

[47:54] private school." So your your theory is

[47:56] that that um the plan would give public

[48:00] schools an incentive to make themselves

[48:03] attractive enough to attract uh students

[48:05] bringing $1,000 with them. Is that

[48:07] >> the incentive and the money to make

[48:10] these changes? See, 40 million new

[48:13] dollars into Denver alone uh is a lot of

[48:17] money. That's 15 million. 15 million is

[48:20] all Denver gets today in education

[48:22] grants from the federal government. This

[48:24] is $40 million new dollars for middle

[48:26] and low-income families to spend at the

[48:28] schools that parents feel help children

[48:31] the most. It's hard for me to see how

[48:33] anyone can oppose that while for the

[48:35] last 50 years we've been doing that with

[48:37] all of our colleges and universities,

[48:39] public and private, and it's helped to

[48:41] create the best system of colleges and

[48:43] universities in the world.

[48:44] >> Governor Romer, uh would it strengthen

[48:46] public schools as the secretary

[48:48] suggests?

[48:49] >> Absolutely not. And I've worked with

[48:51] Lamar and the president on education in

[48:53] the past and I will in the future. Uh

[48:55] but I got to tell you this is one of the

[48:57] worst things I've seen them propose.

[48:59] It's fatally flawed. Let me tell you

[49:01] about five reasons. One, it deceives

[49:04] people. If you really to apply this for

[49:06] all children in America, it would cost $

[49:08] 38 billion. So for Lamar to say, look

[49:11] what it would do to Denver. Look what

[49:13] kind of money. Look, it would only touch

[49:15] one out of every 64 students in the

[49:18] United States with a half a billion.

[49:20] Secondly, it's one of the worst kinds of

[49:22] intrusion of the federal government into

[49:24] state uh educational policy. We happen

[49:26] to have a constitutional amendment uh uh

[49:29] provision in our constitution that

[49:30] prohibits this in Colorado. Yet, in

[49:33] order to participate, we'd have to

[49:34] change our policy. We say that we should

[49:37] not use any public funds for a church

[49:40] supported school. And I'm very surprised

[49:43] that the administration would propose

[49:45] such an intrusive measure to try to

[49:47] force states to change what ought to be

[49:50] a matter of local control. And you know,

[49:52] look, this is not there's no choice in

[49:54] rural America. I came from Holly,

[49:56] Colorado. 800 people. There's one

[49:58] elementary school, one high school.

[50:00] There is no choice in Holly, Colorado.

[50:02] So, you know, this discriminates against

[50:04] half the country, the rural America. The

[50:07] final thing is choice and competition is

[50:09] a good idea within the public school

[50:11] system. And if they want to really help,

[50:13] simply change that law. But the most

[50:15] serious problem is why so late? You

[50:18] know, as the president just said on

[50:19] tape, I want a difference with my

[50:20] opponent, Mr. Clinton. I think this is

[50:23] obviously a political bill. It was filed

[50:25] within the last two or three weeks in

[50:27] the middle of a presidential campaign.

[50:29] If you really believed in it, where were

[50:30] you four years ago when you began this

[50:32] administration? I just don't think this

[50:35] uh has real substance. I think it's a

[50:37] political move.

[50:38] >> Well, let's take uh the secretary

[50:39] through a couple of these points. First

[50:41] of all, if it really applied to all

[50:43] students, it would cost 38 billion, not

[50:45] 500 million. Mr. Secretary,

[50:47] >> that's true. Only a big spending liberal

[50:49] would propose a $ 38 billion plan

[50:51] without testing it. The president's been

[50:53] talking about this for four years. He's

[50:55] proposed to Congress a variety of ways

[50:57] to give middle and lowincome families

[50:59] more of the same choices wealthy

[51:01] families have. And now this is the

[51:03] biggest new program in the federal

[51:05] government that the president's

[51:06] proposed. Half a billion dollars, half a

[51:08] million children, 25 cities the size of

[51:10] Little Rock could participate for four

[51:12] years. Many will want to. So it it it's

[51:15] a lot of money.

[51:15] >> So it's a test program.

[51:17] >> It is a demonstration program for four

[51:18] years. And as to the pro choice about

[51:21] rural areas, let me take that as an

[51:23] example. My grandfather sold his farm,

[51:26] moved my father into a little town

[51:28] called Mville so he could attend a

[51:30] better public school in Tennessee. Time

[51:33] magazine says that Bill Clinton's

[51:35] parents brought him in from the country

[51:38] to attend a Catholic school in Hot

[51:40] Springs, Arkansas, because they wanted

[51:42] him to have the best school. Now, what's

[51:44] good enough for Governor Clinton and

[51:45] what's good enough for me ought to be

[51:47] good enough for all the families of

[51:49] America. And their position, Governor

[51:51] Romer and Governor Clinton, is that only

[51:53] the rich ought to have a choice of all

[51:55] the schools. The president's position is

[51:57] that middle and lowincome families ought

[51:59] to have a choice of all schools as well.

[52:02] >> How would Governor Clinton reply to

[52:04] that, Mr. Romer?

[52:05] >> Well, you know, look, that argument is

[52:06] is so wrong on its face. You know, Lamar

[52:09] Alexander just said, look, we moved our

[52:11] towns in order to get better education.

[52:13] The implication is that a family would

[52:15] pick up and move in order to take

[52:17] advantage of the $1,000 a year. You

[52:19] know, that's ridiculous. The thought is

[52:22] woollyheaded in this in this proposal.

[52:24] I'm sorry to use such direct language,

[52:26] but you know, we have so many real

[52:28] reforms we need to do in American

[52:30] education. We ought not just be throwing

[52:32] a half a billion on the table in the

[52:34] middle of a political campaign and to

[52:36] try to leverage states to change

[52:38] educational policy that ought to be

[52:40] theirs locally to make. And I would

[52:42] challenge Lamar Alexander to answer me.

[52:44] Are you trying to dictate to all states

[52:46] that you're going to have to follow this

[52:48] in order to participate? Colorado would

[52:49] have to change its constitution in order

[52:51] to participate in this program.

[52:52] >> Secretary Alexander.

[52:53] >> Well, Governor Romer is distinguished

[52:55] governor and he knows much better than

[52:57] that because today half the college

[53:00] students in Colorado have federal grants

[53:02] or federal loans which they may spend at

[53:04] any college or university, public,

[53:06] private or religious. the uh lowincome

[53:10] families in Colorado have federal

[53:12] vouchers which they can spend at Baptist

[53:14] daycare centers as well as public

[53:17] daycare centers. So it would take no

[53:19] change in the Colorado Constitution to

[53:21] spend new federal dollars at any

[53:24] elementary or secondary school. What

[53:26] we're saying is let's use the 50 years

[53:28] of experience we've had with the GI

[53:30] Bill, federal grants and loans to build

[53:32] the best system of colleges and

[53:34] universities in the world and apply the

[53:36] same principles to elementary and

[53:39] secondary schools. Make them change,

[53:41] help them change, and give them the

[53:42] money to change with most of the new

[53:44] money going to the public schools that

[53:47] the parents choose. Secretary Alexander,

[53:50] objection I've heard raised to your plan

[53:53] is that it would since private schools

[53:56] choose the students they want to admit

[53:59] that they would just if they accepted

[54:01] students, say poor students from the

[54:03] inner city, they would just skim off the

[54:05] most able and promising students and

[54:07] leave behind in the public schools all

[54:10] the disadvantaged or problem students

[54:12] that public school public schools are

[54:14] required by law to take. Well, that's

[54:17] usually said by people who have their

[54:19] children in private schools somewhere. I

[54:22] sat next to a lady in Philadelphia today

[54:25] who runs a Catholic school there in

[54:26] Philadelphia. 90% of the kids are poor

[54:29] kids. They're minority kids. Most of

[54:31] them not not Catholic. Uh in Harlem,

[54:35] there is a program of school choice

[54:37] among public schools that has closed the

[54:40] bad schools and opened better schools.

[54:43] What competition usually does in America

[54:45] is keep people on their toes. If I take

[54:47] my child out of your school because it's

[54:49] unsafe, because it closes as three and I

[54:52] work to six and because you think my

[54:54] child can't learn and you move and and I

[54:58] move my child to another school, you

[54:59] might change your practices and create a

[55:01] better school and attract me back.

[55:03] That's the idea. It'll make all schools

[55:05] better for all children.

[55:07] >> What do you think of that, Governor

[55:08] Romer?

[55:09] >> Well, you see, the program is not well

[55:11] thought out. First of all, it costs

[55:13] about four to four $4,000 $4,200 per

[55:16] student in Colorado to educate somebody

[55:18] in public schools. So $1,000 option does

[55:22] not entitle a family to buy that same

[55:25] kind of education in the private sector.

[55:27] Secondly, you know, the argument that

[55:28] this is the same as GI Bill is simply

[55:31] facious. It's facious. The GI Bill was a

[55:34] great program. It encouraged GIs who

[55:37] miss college to come back to college.

[55:39] But what that bill did is it gave GIS a

[55:41] good education. It did not reform

[55:43] colleges. It just did not reform

[55:45] colleges.

[55:46] >> Governor Governor Romer and Secretary

[55:48] Alexander, I'm going to have to

[55:49] interrupt you here. We intended to have

[55:51] a much longer discussion of this, but we

[55:53] ran into some satellite uh trouble which

[55:56] shortened our discussion tonight. We

[55:57] will certainly come back to this

[55:59] subject. I thank you both for being with

[56:00] us this evening.

[56:01] >> Thank you. Thank you.

[56:05] Again,

[56:07] [music]

[56:11] the major stories of this Tuesday.

[56:13] Federal Reserve Chairman Alan Greenspan

[56:15] said he expected the economic recovery

[56:17] to slowly gain momentum and to improve

[56:20] the nation's unemployment picture next

[56:22] year. And Israel and Egypt held their

[56:24] first summit in six years. Israeli Prime

[56:26] Minister Issach Rabin and Egyptian

[56:29] President Mubarak pledged to accelerate

[56:31] the Middle East peace process. Good

[56:33] night, Robin.

[56:34] >> Good night, Jim. That's the NewsHour

[56:35] tonight and we'll see you again tomorrow

[56:37] night. I'm Robert McNeel. Good night.

[56:40] >> Funding for the McNeel NewsHour has been

[56:43] provided by PepsiCo.

[56:45] [music]

[56:49] [music]

[56:56] Mexico. [music]

[56:59] Part of helping the world live and

[57:01] communicate better is keeping it well

[57:02] informed. That's why funding for the

[57:05] NewsHour is also provided by AT&T

[57:08] and by the Corporation for Public

[57:10] Broadcasting and viewers like you.

[57:15] >> The nose knows how much it knows is the

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[57:20] smells. David Suzuki hosts Nova next at

[57:22] 8 here on OPB.

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[57:38] [music]

[57:39] >> This is PBS.

[57:42] >> Funding for the McNeel Lair NewsHour has

[57:44] been provided by ODS Health Plan, the

[57:47] group medical plan that meets the needs

[57:48] of more than 600,000 Oregonians by

[57:51] providing a broad range of medical and

[57:53] dental coverage and responsive service.

[57:59] to walk a tight rope with their

[58:00] restoration efforts. Building codes and

[58:02] health standards are different now than

[58:04] they were in 1939. Nonetheless, the

[58:06] volunteers perseverance and adherence to

[58:09] tradition blended with modern

[58:11] regulation.

[58:12] >> Just tremendous craftsmen have been

[58:14] working on this building.

[58:15] >> The nearly complete restoration of Silox

[58:18] Hut raises an interesting question.

[58:20] What's next? Well, the answer to that

[58:22] question is just down the mountain at

[58:24] Timberline Lodge. The RLK company, which

[58:27] has the contract to operate Timberline

[58:29] Lodge, also has the contract to operate

[58:32] Silox Hut.

[58:32] >> Well, we're really looking forward to uh

[58:35] operating the facility uh for our skiers

[58:39] open to the public for day use

[58:40] facilities as a warming hut and with

[58:42] food and beverage. And in addition, uh

[58:45] we will have overnight accommodations

[58:47] sold to groups on a reservation basis.

[58:50] The two-story area that once housed the

[58:52] bullwheel of a chairlift now has

[58:53] overnight accommodations for 24.

[58:56] >> It's quite communal and the spirit of

[58:58] this place is in the European mountain

[59:02] climbing hut.

[59:04] >> Getting to Silox Hut from Timberline on

[59:06] foot takes about 45 minutes. On the

[59:08] current Magic Mile chairlift, about 15

[59:11] minutes. It'll take about 9 minutes when

[59:13] the new Magic Mile Super Express quad

[59:15] chairlift goes into service this winter.

[59:18] That's when the friends of Silox Hut

[59:19] hope to have their restoration project

[59:21] finished by the time the first

[59:23] snowflakes fall on Mount Hood. With

[59:25] photographer Wayne Cosb, Eric Schmidt,

[59:28] Newsroom 6.

[59:29] >> Oh, it's going to be such a jewel. It's

[59:32] a very special place.

[59:35] >> Silox Hut is named for Ferdinand Silox,

[59:38] the head of the Forest Service who

[59:40] started the Timberline Recreation Area.

[59:42] If you would like to help the friends of

[59:43] Silox Hut finish their restoration

[59:45] project, contributions are welcome at

[59:47] Post Office Box 536, Welches, Oregon

[59:51] 97067.

[59:53] Or you can telephone your pledge to

[59:54] 662-5365

[59:56] in Welches.

[59:57] >> Beautiful views from up there. Thanks

[59:59] for joining us. Have a great evening.

[60:01] >> Good night for now.