Nightline (ABC) - 1999-07-22

Channel: malgent

Transcript

Language: English (original, YouTube automatic captions)

[0:01] July 22nd, 1999.

[0:05] >> It's the biggest business in Washington.

[0:08] >> I want to thank all of you who are here

[0:10] who contributed to my campaign.

[0:13] I know you wrote exploratory on the

[0:15] check

[0:16] >> and it's getting bigger all the time.

[0:19] >> Thank you all for standing here with us

[0:22] and supporting this campaign.

[0:24] >> Now it's center stage in the

[0:26] presidential campaign. Democracy doesn't

[0:29] have to be a commodity that is bought or

[0:32] sold.

[0:33] >> We're all shortch changed by soft money,

[0:35] liberal and conservative alike.

[0:37] >> But never underestimate the forces

[0:40] against change.

[0:41] >> He's an active, forceful defender of

[0:44] what I believe is a very corrupt system.

[0:47] I view him as a great American.

[0:48] >> Tonight, the uphill struggle to get

[0:51] money out of politics.

[0:57] from ABC News.

[1:02] This is Night Line, substituting for Ted

[1:06] Cppel and reporting from Washington. Ki

[1:09] Roberts.

[1:10] >> Everybody hates it, but nobody does

[1:13] anything about it. Politicians complain

[1:15] about raising the money. Donors complain

[1:18] about giving the money. And voters

[1:20] complain about being cut out. But year

[1:23] after year, bills to clean up money in

[1:25] politics get buried by the very people

[1:28] who complain. This year's presidential

[1:30] race promises to be the most expensive

[1:33] in history by far. One candidate, Texas

[1:36] Governor George W. Bush, has opted out

[1:39] of the system that puts some limits on

[1:40] how much he can spend in the nomination

[1:42] process. Add to the presidential race

[1:45] the cost of some high-profile Senate

[1:47] campaigns. Take the one in New York for

[1:50] instance, and campaign spending could

[1:52] top a billion dollars. Two presidential

[1:55] candidates, on the Democratic side, Bill

[1:58] Bradley. On the Republican side, John

[2:00] McCain, have chosen to make the issue of

[2:03] money and politics central in their

[2:05] campaigns. We'll be talking to Senator

[2:07] McCain shortly along with author

[2:09] Elizabeth Drew. But first, Night Line

[2:12] correspondent Chris Buri takes a look at

[2:14] the question, if so many people dislike

[2:17] the current financing system, why

[2:19] doesn't anyone change it?

[2:22] >> So much money is flying around

[2:24] Washington this summer that you had to

[2:26] be invited for the privilege of paying

[2:28] $1,000 for one of these hot dogs or

[2:31] hamburgers. But of course, nobody came

[2:33] for the food.

[2:34] >> And I want to thank all of you who are

[2:35] here who've contributed to my campaign.

[2:38] That $1,000 and a commitment to raise 25

[2:42] or 50,000 got you a few seconds in the

[2:44] sun with George W. Bush, whose campaign

[2:47] picked up a cool million or more for one

[2:50] night's work.

[2:56] >> The other candidates are all doing the

[2:58] same thing, if not quite so well. And

[3:01] this election season should bust all

[3:03] records for raking in the dough. The

[3:05] newspaper editorials are already ringing

[3:07] their hands, and one presidential

[3:09] contender from each party is writing

[3:12] hard on the promise of reform.

[3:14] >> Democracy doesn't have to be a commodity

[3:17] that is bought or sold.

[3:19] >> Today, Democrat Bill Bradley called for

[3:21] public financing of congressional

[3:23] elections, free TV time for candidates,

[3:26] and other massive changes to reduce the

[3:29] influence of special interest money. for

[3:31] the top priority must be to prohibit

[3:34] soft money contributions to national

[3:36] party committees.

[3:37] >> Republican Senator John McCain has

[3:39] already made reform the signature issue

[3:42] of his campaign.

[3:43] >> And we are the defenders of a campaign

[3:46] finance system that is nothing less than

[3:50] an elaborate influence pedling scheme in

[3:53] which both parties conspire to stay in

[3:55] office by selling the country to the

[3:59] highest bidder. If you listen to those

[4:01] candidates and read those editorials,

[4:03] you might be tempted to think the

[4:05] supporters of campaign finance reform

[4:08] must have the angels on their side. But

[4:11] here in Washington, whenever the subject

[4:13] comes up in Congress, the reformers

[4:15] almost always lose. And perhaps there

[4:18] are some good reasons why.

[4:20] >> Most of these critical cartoons are

[4:22] about this issue as well. I've been

[4:24] royally skewered. The first reason is

[4:27] Mitch McConnell, Republican senator from

[4:29] Kentucky, who's made a career of killing

[4:32] campaign finance reform.

[4:34] >> We also had the the the

[4:37] only allight filibuster on this subject

[4:38] in the last 10 years.

[4:40] >> McConnell is proud of the filibusters he

[4:43] has led and his office in Congress is

[4:45] covered with cartoons ridiculing his

[4:48] stands against reform. He regards them

[4:50] as badges of honor. You're portrayed as

[4:53] the bad guy in this as the as the Darth

[4:55] Vader. How does that strike you?

[4:57] >> Well, I'm proud of it. Uh I'm the guy

[4:59] there defending the First Amendment.

[5:01] I've received a numerous awards for my

[5:04] defense of the First Amendment. Uh I

[5:07] frankly don't care what the reformers

[5:09] say.

[5:10] >> McConnell's big problem is with those

[5:12] reforms that would ban soft money. that

[5:15] is money raised in unrestricted amounts

[5:17] by political parties and groups

[5:20] representing one interest or another.

[5:22] His argument is always always wrapped in

[5:25] the constitution.

[5:26] >> The Supreme Court in the Buckley case,

[5:28] that great conservative Thood Marshall

[5:30] speaking for the entire court, all nine

[5:32] of them said that the expenditure of

[5:34] money is indispensable

[5:37] to effective political speech. In fact,

[5:40] reformers insist the court rulings and

[5:42] federal election law are far more

[5:44] complicated than Senator McConnell lets

[5:47] on. We ban corporate contributions and

[5:50] labor union contributions. We limit

[5:52] individual impact contributions all in

[5:54] connection with federal elections. The

[5:56] Supreme Court and Buckley valo upheld

[6:00] the restrictions on contributions to

[6:02] parties.

[6:02] >> With a dole amendment, Republicans try

[6:04] to block more job training. The soft

[6:06] money is often spent on issue

[6:08] advertising. The Supreme Court says

[6:11] that's fine as long as you don't use the

[6:13] magic words vote for or vote against a

[6:17] particular candidate even if the intent

[6:19] of the ads is obvious.

[6:21] >> When one looks at these ads though, it

[6:23] seems pretty clear even if they are

[6:26] called issue ads that uh they are

[6:28] directed in opposition or support of a

[6:30] particular candidate. And reformers say

[6:32] that that is a sham. Well, the reformers

[6:36] then would like for the government to

[6:37] deal with the content of commercials and

[6:40] determine what kind of commercials are

[6:42] okay and what kind of commercials aren't

[6:44] okay. The American Civil Liberties Union

[6:47] has called that approach a recipe for

[6:49] repression.

[6:50] >> Just look at the interest groups that

[6:51] have lined up behind Senator McConnell.

[6:54] And a second reason for the failure of

[6:56] campaign finance reform becomes clear.

[6:59] They represent as many as 10 million

[7:01] Americans. Teachers, postal workers,

[7:04] firefighters, realtors, broadcasters,

[7:07] gun owners, civil libertarians,

[7:09] supporters of women's rights, and those

[7:11] adamantly opposed to abortion. In fact,

[7:14] the only thing they have in common is an

[7:17] aversion to campaign finance reforms

[7:19] that would put more limits on the money

[7:21] they raise or the ads they buy.

[7:23] >> Well, the Federalist papers were paid

[7:25] speech. Someone paid to print them.

[7:27] Thomas Payne's pamphlets were paid

[7:29] speech. They had to be printed

[7:30] somewhere. Um, the First Amendment

[7:33] didn't apply just to you and me going in

[7:38] the hallway and holding a conversation.

[7:39] It was specifically drafted so people

[7:42] would be free to print and distribute

[7:45] literature and free to speak. Not all

[7:48] money in politics is dirty. A lot of

[7:50] money is just people participating in

[7:52] our democratic process. They write

[7:54] checks to candidates. They go volunteer

[7:56] in the campaigns and ultimately they

[7:58] vote for the people they like. That's

[8:00] what democracy is about. And I think it

[8:03] is unfair and not healthy for our

[8:05] democracy to treat every small campaign

[8:08] contribution as something dirty or bad.

[8:11] It's not.

[8:12] >> So if Senator McConnell is a sinner to

[8:14] the reformers,

[8:15] >> he's an active forceful defender of what

[8:19] I believe is a very corrupt system.

[8:21] >> He is also a saint to those who like the

[8:23] status quo. He's the good guy.

[8:26] >> Money distorts the nature of our

[8:28] democracy.

[8:29] >> And for all the new attention the

[8:31] subject is getting this election season.

[8:33] >> That if I am elected, we will have

[8:37] campaign finance reform.

[8:41] >> There is little evidence to suggest the

[8:43] reformers will fare any better when it

[8:45] comes up again in Congress this fall.

[8:48] >> Why does it always lose? Well, it should

[8:50] lose because this is an effort to put

[8:52] the government in charge of the

[8:53] political speech of individuals, groups,

[8:55] candidates, and parties. I hope it will

[8:57] always lose.

[8:58] >> There is another reason reformers have

[9:00] so much trouble on this question. Public

[9:03] opinion surveys consistently show

[9:05] campaign finance reform ranks low among

[9:07] the priorities of voters who also say

[9:10] they have little confidence in Congress

[9:12] to make meaningful changes. So, the

[9:14] reformers may have the angels on their

[9:16] side, but not much else. This is Chris

[9:20] Buri for Night Line in Washington.

[9:23] >> In a moment, the Republican presidential

[9:25] candidate who's making campaign finance

[9:27] reform a centerpiece of his campaign,

[9:30] Senator John McCain.

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[12:00] Joining us from Norfick, Virginia,

[12:02] Republican Senator and Presidential

[12:04] Candidate John McCain. Thanks for coming

[12:06] in, Senator, stopping by in Norphick to

[12:08] be with us.

[12:09] >> Thank you.

[12:10] >> You have this week made an agreement

[12:12] with the Senate Majority Leader Trent

[12:14] Lot to bring up a bill uh in the fall.

[12:18] You had threatened to to disrupt the

[12:20] Senate, make them deal with campaign

[12:22] finance reform. Why did you decide not

[12:24] to do that? but because we got a deal

[12:27] from an agreement from the majority

[12:29] leader that allows us to bring up and

[12:32] have amendments uh and debate and votes

[12:35] on uh on the bill. Uh if we had just

[12:38] tied up the Senate, it would have been

[12:40] like in the same as in the past where we

[12:43] just got stuck into a gridlock position

[12:46] and there really wasn't substantive

[12:48] debate and voting. I am confident that

[12:50] the chances of passage of campaign

[12:53] finance reform will be significantly

[12:55] improved under this agreement because

[12:57] we'll have a week where people will

[12:59] propose amendments, improve the bill,

[13:01] and perhaps we'll get the eight

[13:03] additional votes that will be necessary

[13:05] to get to 60. As you know, we already

[13:08] have a majority of votes in the Senate

[13:10] and in the House for campaign finance

[13:12] reform. But you need those 60 votes in

[13:14] order to close debate so that you can

[13:16] actually get the bill passed on the

[13:18] Senate floor.

[13:19] >> Exactly.

[13:20] >> Senator, I want to go over a couple of

[13:22] things that were in Chris Bur's piece.

[13:23] Uh, one is this question of outside

[13:26] groups uh that have banded together uh

[13:29] and the strange bedfellows nature of it.

[13:32] Your legislation, as I understand it,

[13:34] this time around does not uh ban any

[13:37] outside group contributions. Is that

[13:39] correct? Well, we haven't uh exactly

[13:42] decided on what form legislation will

[13:44] come to the floor, but I still believe

[13:46] that if outside groups get into a

[13:49] political campaign, then they should be

[13:51] subject to the same limitations uh that

[13:54] the participants are because they are

[13:56] participants. Uh if they want to

[13:58] advocate a cause, whether it be the

[14:00] right to bear arms or a woman's right to

[14:02] choose or any other cause, then I think

[14:05] they should not be subject to those

[14:06] restrictions. But once they get into a

[14:08] political campaign, as we know they do,

[14:11] then they should be subject to the same

[14:13] thousand restrictions that uh that

[14:16] should apply to the candidates, but as

[14:18] you know, don't anymore.

[14:19] >> And how influential do you think they

[14:22] are when it comes to trying to get to

[14:24] those 60 votes?

[14:26] >> I think they're very influential. Uh I

[14:28] think they've uh grown extremely

[14:30] powerful in American political campaigns

[14:33] and uh I think that uh they have to be

[14:35] assured that they will still have a

[14:37] voice but that voice cannot be

[14:39] unrestricted and we know what it takes

[14:41] the form of now is in massive negative c

[14:44] advertising campaigns which don't serve

[14:46] the process in any way that I know of.

[14:48] >> Well and in fact we have some evidence

[14:51] that they serve to uh promote cynicism

[14:54] on the part of the electorate. You have

[14:56] spoken a great deal on that subject, but

[14:59] I wonder again in Chris's piece we heard

[15:01] that the voters don't seem very

[15:03] concerned about this. I've looked at ABC

[15:06] polling over the over the years. It's

[15:08] never a top tier issue. Uh well behind

[15:12] health and education and taxes and the

[15:15] economy. Why when you've had the kinds

[15:17] of scandals we've had in the last year

[15:20] of Chinese contributions, Buddhist

[15:22] temples, Lincoln bedroom, why aren't the

[15:25] voters outraged?

[15:26] >> I think they are. I think there's a

[15:28] sense of frustration that they can't do

[15:30] anything about it. Also, Russ Fineold

[15:32] and I have failed to do a good enough

[15:33] job in connecting uh with the American

[15:37] people that every time there's a tax

[15:38] loophole or a benefit for a special

[15:40] interest, they suffer. whenever there's

[15:42] a pork barrel appropriation uh that's

[15:44] wasteful and fraudulent that they suffer

[15:47] by it and they are disenfranchised

[15:50] when uh the public interests are

[15:52] overruled by the special interest which

[15:54] is the case in Washington. We are making

[15:57] our case but recent polls show that 68%

[16:00] of young Americans believe that they're

[16:02] disconnected from their government and

[16:04] the most the majority of them feel that

[16:06] it's special interests that have caused

[16:08] that. I think um my experience has been

[16:12] kokei on the campaign trail that when I

[16:15] talk to audiences and explain to them

[16:17] exactly what is happening uh in perhaps

[16:20] more graphic terms than they've seen

[16:21] before they do respond and I think

[16:23] they're going to demand a change. The

[16:26] other point that that Chris made through

[16:28] his piece was the uh role of Senator

[16:30] Mitch McConnell.

[16:32] >> And Senator McConnell certainly has been

[16:34] a stalwart on the issue. But um there

[16:37] are a lot of people who have been around

[16:39] this town for a long time who look at

[16:41] him and say there are an awful lot of

[16:43] members of Congress hiding behind Mitch

[16:46] McConnell. Uh that it's incumbents of

[16:49] all stripes who don't want to change the

[16:51] system that elected them.

[16:54] I I think there's a great deal of truth

[16:55] to that. I admire Senator McConnell's

[16:57] willingness to step forward and and uh

[17:00] espouse a cause and labor for a cause

[17:03] that he believes in. And yes, I believe

[17:05] there's a lot of cynicism out there. I

[17:07] think there are people who uh would be

[17:10] very concerned if we succeeded on both

[17:12] sides of the aisle that say that uh they

[17:15] favor campaign finance reform because

[17:17] really, Ki, the present system protects

[17:20] incumbents. It's a incumbent protection

[17:23] incumbency protection act uh system and

[17:27] uh it keeps them in office. Also uh uh

[17:30] politicians understandably have grown

[17:33] addicted to huge amounts of soft money

[17:36] but that soft money buys access and it

[17:38] buys influence and we all know that we

[17:41] are corrupted by it and the system is

[17:43] corrupted by it. It's become an

[17:44] elaborate influence battling scheme that

[17:47] has to be changed. Otherwise, you're

[17:49] going to see more manifestations in the

[17:52] 1998 election where the 18 to 26 year

[17:55] old vote was the lowest in history and

[17:57] the cynicism is becoming alienation.

[18:00] That's why I'll never quit on this

[18:01] issue.

[18:01] >> Thank you so much again, Senator McCain.

[18:04] >> The Watergate reforms was supposed to

[18:06] clean up money and politics. So, what

[18:07] happened? We'll ask author Elizabeth

[18:09] Drew in a moment.

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[21:01] >> With us from our Chicago bureau,

[21:03] Elizabeth Drew, author of The Corruption

[21:05] of American Politics: What Went Wrong

[21:08] and Why? A look at how money has changed

[21:10] the political system over the past 25

[21:13] years. Thanks for being with us, Miss

[21:15] Drew. Uh you have written about money

[21:18] and politics for a long time and there

[21:20] are a lot of people who say look that

[21:23] bill in 1974 after the Watergate

[21:26] scandals that was supposed to clean it

[21:27] all up has created a lot of these

[21:29] problems political action committees

[21:31] this this free flow of money into the

[21:34] political parties called soft money. Um

[21:36] wouldn't another bill just do the same

[21:38] thing create unexpected problems?

[21:41] >> No, I really don't think so, Cookie. I

[21:42] mean, I don't think it's the bill itself

[21:44] that has caused the problem. It was the

[21:46] loophole that was opened up in the uh

[21:49] late7s which does allow this soft money,

[21:53] this unregulated, this otherwise illegal

[21:55] money to come in and swamp the system. I

[21:58] think it'd be a mistake to expect that

[22:01] any regulatory

[22:03] law, especially one that covers an area

[22:07] like this, is going to work permanently.

[22:09] It needs to be looked at from time to

[22:11] time and fixed. Uh the proposals that

[22:14] Senator McCain and others are now making

[22:16] would fix the most serious areas. It's

[22:19] never going to be perfect, but we had

[22:21] some clean elections after that 74 act

[22:24] for a while until soft money really came

[22:27] in and destroyed them and people people

[22:29] gradually discovered soft money in a way

[22:32] started to catch on. and and you

[22:34] document quite interestingly in this

[22:36] book how uh the Clinton campaign really

[22:40] were past masters at it. Well, uh both

[22:43] parties tried to raise this soft money

[22:45] or did raise this soft money, but when

[22:47] you control the presidency, you control

[22:49] an awful lot of levers and there are an

[22:51] awful lot of people who want access or

[22:54] more. So yes, I mean the 96 election

[22:58] really did destroy the system in that

[23:00] once a presidential candidate accepts

[23:03] federal funding as both did in 96. They

[23:06] signed something that says they won't

[23:07] raise other money but they did. One of

[23:09] the things I hear on the hill is people

[23:11] saying would love to change the system

[23:13] but it it elected me. I'm afraid of the

[23:15] consequences and the voters don't care.

[23:17] Well, as you know, Kokei, last year you

[23:20] had real majorities for something like

[23:23] the McCain fine gold bill or the bill

[23:26] itself in both the House and the Senate.

[23:28] And the House actually passed the bill

[23:30] by a fairly wide majority and with many

[23:33] Republicans uh joining the Democrats. In

[23:36] the Senate, it had a majority of 52, but

[23:39] as uh Senator McCain pointed out, they

[23:42] couldn't get to 60, which is how many

[23:45] you need to end a filibuster. There are

[23:47] all kinds of signs all over the country

[23:50] that this issue is moving. You're right.

[23:52] They don't name it as one of the first

[23:55] five or six issues. But if you, you

[23:58] know, polling depends on the question.

[24:00] If the question is, do you think the

[24:01] system is polluted and it'll be cleaned

[24:03] up? It's overwhelmingly yes. And there

[24:05] have been examples where the voters have

[24:07] weighed in in just that way. But but

[24:10] there's also such cynicism on the part

[24:12] of the voters about the these

[24:14] politicians fixing it. Uh and today for

[24:17] instance, Bill Bradley made a speech

[24:19] saying that if he's the Democratic

[24:21] nominee, he will forego any soft money

[24:25] if the Republicans do the same thing.

[24:27] Now, the chances of that happening are

[24:30] pretty small. Doesn't that add to the

[24:32] cynicism? Well, um I think people can be

[24:36] a little too cynical sometimes. The fact

[24:38] remains that you have two quite credible

[24:41] presidential candidates making this

[24:42] issue a centerpiece. They're not Don

[24:45] Kiotes and they're not fools. They know

[24:47] that something is going on out there. Uh

[24:50] Bradley, that Bradley offer is obviously

[24:52] among other things to embarrass the

[24:54] Republicans. If he were to be the

[24:56] nominee, he would make this a major

[24:58] issue and say, "Look, you know, I was

[25:00] willing to accept limits, but they

[25:01] weren't." And does that work when when

[25:04] the other side is then inundating the

[25:06] airwaves with whatever they want to be

[25:09] inundating them with with all the money

[25:10] that they have raised? I think uh we

[25:14] just don't know how this is going to

[25:15] come out. At the end of the 96 election,

[25:19] you know, people went from supporting a

[25:21] Democratic house, a return to the

[25:24] Democratic control, uh to Republican,

[25:27] and the switch came after all the

[25:29] scandals broke, which they broke very

[25:31] late in the game. So, there are currents

[25:33] out there, and I who knows I mean,

[25:36] whether either of these men will be

[25:38] nominated, they're obviously seeding

[25:41] some things. They are moving the issue

[25:43] forward. Business people are fed up with

[25:45] the system and are getting out of it or

[25:47] proposing change. Many states have

[25:50] accepted public financing. There is

[25:52] movement out there. I don't know when it

[25:54] will come to fruition in the Congress,

[25:55] but it has changed from the last from a

[25:58] few years ago. So, you you have a

[25:59] hopeful innote here. Elizabeth Drew,

[26:02] thank you very much for being with us.

[26:04] We'll have a word about our Friday night

[26:06] special in a moment.

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[28:46] Tomorrow, a Night Line Friday night

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[28:57] the pieces, putting it back together.

[29:00] Our Night Line Friday night special. And

[29:02] that's our report for tonight. I'm Ki

[29:05] Roberts in Washington. For all of us

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