Crossfire (CNN) - 1999-05-31

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Language: English (original, YouTube automatic captions)

[0:17] auto mallusa.com

[0:22] The Moneyline NewsHour with Lou Dos.

[0:24] Week night, 6:30 Eastern on CNN.

[0:27] from Washington. Crossfire.

[0:31] On the left, Bill Prep. On the right,

[0:33] Robert Novak. In the Crossfire,

[0:36] syndicated columnist Cal Thomas, author

[0:38] of Blinded by Might: Can the Religious

[0:41] Rights Save America? And the executive

[0:43] director of the Christian Coalition,

[0:45] Randy Page.

[0:48] >> Good evening. Welcome to Crossfire,

[0:51] Politics and Religion, a holy or unholy

[0:54] mix. That debate is dividing believers

[0:57] today. Paul Hyrick, a founder of the

[0:59] moral majority with Jerry Fwell,

[1:00] recently said religious conservatives

[1:02] should get out of politics because

[1:04] they'd failed so miserably at it. Now

[1:07] Cal Thomas, another former moral

[1:09] majority leader, joins the battle,

[1:11] stirring up a real hornets's nest among

[1:13] Christians. In his new book, Blinded by

[1:16] Might, written with Reverend Ed Dobson,

[1:18] Thomas says Christian leaders should

[1:20] focus on what they do best, saving

[1:22] souls, not winning elections. Yet, Pat

[1:25] Robertson's Christian Coalition

[1:27] continues its political agenda. And one

[1:30] religious leader, Gary Bower, is even

[1:32] running for president on moral issues.

[1:35] So, where does religion end and politics

[1:38] begin? That debate continues on

[1:40] Crossfire tonight. Is the political

[1:42] power of the religious rights starting

[1:44] to fade? By focusing so much on

[1:47] politics, have some religious leaders

[1:49] even joined the enemy camp? Bob Kell

[1:52] Thomas, just before you came into the

[1:55] studio, my colleague Bill Press, who was

[1:59] really on the far left, not just the

[2:00] left, he picked up he picked up your

[2:03] book and he said, "Boy," he said, "This

[2:05] is really a good book." And uh there was

[2:09] a big piece on you in in the Washington

[2:11] Post.

[2:12] >> We're converting the left very rapidly.

[2:13] >> And uh I I you're not converting them,

[2:16] but they think you have turned tail and

[2:20] doesn't it in all candid doesn't it make

[2:21] you a little uncomfortable when people

[2:22] like press are praising you?

[2:24] >> Not at all. It gives me more

[2:25] opportunities to do the real work of the

[2:27] church, which is to share the gospel

[2:28] with them. And uh uh look, we're not

[2:31] saying, as the introduction suggested,

[2:32] and some people are trying to uh

[2:34] position us, that believers should drop

[2:36] out of politics. What we're talking

[2:38] about is a refocusing on the real power

[2:40] that doesn't produce trickle down

[2:42] morality from government leaders, but

[2:44] bubble up morality. The church has a

[2:46] unique calling. It is to introduce

[2:49] people to God. It is to yes be salt and

[2:51] preservative in culture, but it is not

[2:54] to uh try to force a moral code on a

[2:57] nation that is not ready to accept it.

[3:00] We have some of these horrible things in

[3:01] America, abortion, uh the drugs, bad TV

[3:04] and the rest. Uh these are these are not

[3:06] the cause of our decadence. They're a

[3:08] reflection of a materialistic society

[3:10] that worship worships the golden calf of

[3:13] Dow Jones instead of the living God.

[3:15] >> But of course, that is not the message

[3:16] that the presses of the world are

[3:18] taking. But but but you you you would

[3:21] agree. Well, no, maybe you wouldn't

[3:23] agree. Uh do you believe that if there

[3:25] were not a moral majority, Jerry Fwell

[3:28] formed it, as you report, you were his

[3:31] at his right hand or left hand,

[3:33] whatever.

[3:33] >> He has a left hand, his right hand.

[3:36] >> If there had not been a moral majority,

[3:40] do you think Ronald Reagan would have

[3:42] been elected president anyway? No. I

[3:43] think there were a lot of combinations.

[3:45] Uh, in the in the 1980 election, there

[3:47] was Jimmy Carter. I think if there

[3:49] hadn't been Jimmy Carter, it might have

[3:50] been more difficult for Ronald Reagan to

[3:52] be elected. There was a gutting of our

[3:54] military structure there is today just I

[3:57] think it was a contributing factor. I

[3:58] don't think it was the decisive factor.

[4:00] You had inflation, you had double digit

[4:01] inflation, you had double-digit

[4:02] unemployment, you had uh the view of

[4:04] incompetence in the White House. So, it

[4:06] was one factor. It was not the factor.

[4:08] >> Well, let me let me make the argument,

[4:09] Cal, that without the moral majority,

[4:11] Ronald Reagan would not have been

[4:12] elected. Without the Christian

[4:14] Coalition, you would not have a uh

[4:16] Republican Congress today.

[4:18] >> It made a big difference, hasn't it,

[4:19] Bob?

[4:19] >> Yes. Well, the question that what you're

[4:21] saying is that Ronald Reagan and the

[4:23] Republican Congress, you just assume

[4:25] have the left wingers.

[4:26] >> Ronald Reagan gave us Sandra Day Oconor,

[4:28] the swing vote in the abortion debate.

[4:29] Ronald Reagan gave us Justice Anthony

[4:31] Kennedy, who's been a swing vote in

[4:33] school prayer. There are only slightly

[4:34] fewer numbers of abortions than there

[4:36] were any difference. Well, it did not

[4:37] make a substantial agenda cutting taxes.

[4:40] Well, Clinton got back in and raised him

[4:43] again. See, this is a power battle. This

[4:45] isn't a moral battle. That's the

[4:46] difference between the two kingdoms.

[4:47] Bob,

[4:48] >> uh, I want to share a secret with both

[4:49] of you. By the way, Bob Novak doesn't

[4:51] have the faintest idea what lessons I

[4:54] have drawn from this book. Um, and never

[4:57] will. Brandy, but I think tell me about

[5:00] it.

[5:00] >> I I was hoping that you might clear

[5:02] something up for me tonight once and

[5:03] all. Could you please? Um, is God a

[5:05] Republican or a Democrat?

[5:07] >> Uh, neither. Uh,

[5:10] >> no.

[5:11] >> God is available to all Americans and

[5:13] all people.

[5:14] >> Well, that's a question that uh Cal has

[5:16] some fun with in in this book because he

[5:19] indicates that there are certain people

[5:20] who really speak as if God is on their

[5:23] side and only on their side. And if I

[5:25] may quote from page 102 here, quote my

[5:29] friend here, many in the religious right

[5:31] have fallen for the temptation of taking

[5:33] sides and declaring that God is on their

[5:35] side. The most blatant attempt to co-opt

[5:38] God is the Christian Coalition. The very

[5:42] name places the divine stamp of approval

[5:46] on their agenda. Aren't you trying to

[5:48] pretend, Randy Tate, that God is on your

[5:50] side and not on anybody else's?

[5:52] >> I think it'd be a mistake for any

[5:53] organization or any individual to make

[5:55] that sort of statement in the political

[5:57] realm. I will tell you there are people

[5:59] that share my faith, Bill, that don't

[6:01] share my politics. And there are people

[6:02] that share my politics that don't share

[6:04] my faith. Um, our goal at the Christian

[6:06] Coalition is to ensure that all

[6:08] individuals in America, people of faith,

[6:10] are active participants in the dialogue

[6:12] we call democracy, that we could come on

[6:13] a show like Crossfire and talk about

[6:15] issues. And I would like to respond to

[6:17] Cal. I would challenge Cal to come out

[6:19] there with me, travel around the

[6:21] country, see the changes, the bubbling

[6:22] up that occurred that I saw in Texas

[6:24] this last weekend where they're they're

[6:26] changing the community, they're changing

[6:27] the churches at when I went to that

[6:29] meeting. And I'll tell you that when you

[6:30] look at the polls, let me finish this

[6:32] point. When I when I when you look at

[6:33] the polls that come out, FA Waddson just

[6:36] did a poll, center for gender equality,

[6:37] former head of Planned Parenthood, that

[6:39] found that a majority of American women

[6:40] today are pro-life. We're making and she

[6:43] gives credit to the rise of religious

[6:45] conservatives in the political realm.

[6:47] >> I appreciate that very much. With all

[6:48] due respect, you're ducking the point,

[6:50] which is this name, I mean, Christian

[6:52] Coalition. If what you say is true, why

[6:55] don't you change your name rather than

[6:57] give this impression and wrapping

[6:59] Christian all around everything that

[7:01] you're doing as if it's exclusively

[7:02] yours? Well, how about a little

[7:04] humility?

[7:05] >> Well, you know, you know,

[7:06] >> I guess it's like new practice, right?

[7:08] >> Exactly. Right. Exactly.

[7:10] >> No, no. The point is truth in

[7:12] advertising. People of faith.

[7:13] >> There's no truth in advertising. family,

[7:15] Roman Catholics, evangelicals coming

[7:17] together from a conservative

[7:19] perspective, wanting to ensure that we

[7:21] have a voice in the political realm. You

[7:23] know, for years, um, those on the other

[7:25] side have had an opportunity to speak

[7:26] out. We think people of faith should be

[7:28] registered to vote, should be educated

[7:29] on the issues of the day and should take

[7:31] an active role not only in their church,

[7:33] but also in their community and civic

[7:35] affairs. And we think um, that's

[7:39] saying any different. He's not coming to

[7:40] drop out. No, I I don't think Bill I

[7:42] don't think Bill we need to retreat to a

[7:43] holy huddle on a hill. I think we need

[7:45] to continue to be active.

[7:47] >> Yeah. Go ahead.

[7:48] >> Well, I'm I'm kind of amused as I'm

[7:49] listening to this and my good friend

[7:50] Randy here who I who I do admire because

[7:52] I was down the road that he was going

[7:53] down and we used to make a lot of these

[7:55] arguments in the 80s. I travel with

[7:56] Jerry Fwell many places. We'd convince

[7:59] ourselves that because we had large

[8:00] church turnouts and 10,000 people that

[8:02] this was the real wave of America. But

[8:04] we didn't realize that we were pretty

[8:06] much speaking to our own little closed

[8:08] niche and group. And real political

[8:10] arguments are won not at the polls but

[8:12] in individual human hearts. Politics is

[8:15] important but it's not decisive.

[8:16] Politics is about compromise. The

[8:18] kingdom of God is about truth. In many

[8:20] places they're irreconcilable. K

[8:22] excepting that I was really surprised by

[8:25] the thing I was surprised by your book

[8:27] mostly about was I've always considered

[8:29] you a very positive upbeat person.

[8:31] There's a lot of negativism in this book

[8:32] and I made sure there was your chapters

[8:34] and not Ed Dobson's chapters, but you

[8:37] say that very little that we set out to

[8:39] do has gotten done. You say that you

[8:41] talk about the impetence and near

[8:43] irrelevance of the religious right and

[8:46] uh and you know I talking to a lot of of

[8:50] people who are uh among the the the few

[8:53] believers in the press corps few

[8:55] Christians in the press corps such as

[8:57] Fred Barnes our mutual friend uh he

[8:59] really believes that there as Randy says

[9:02] politics aside there was a there was a

[9:04] real religious awakening in America and

[9:07] may maybe you're just a little too much

[9:09] inside the beltway to see

[9:11] >> actually only moved recently inside the

[9:12] beltway Bob but uh no I think there is a

[9:15] uh there there is a danger when we

[9:17] equate visibility with success uh you

[9:21] mentioned the issues there haven't been

[9:23] there hasn't been a substantial change

[9:24] in the issues in the last 20 years there

[9:26] just as many people on drugs as before

[9:28] the prisons are overflowing there only a

[9:30] couple hundred thousand fewer abortions

[9:32] I'm talking legislative crime is down

[9:34] it's not well the prisons are

[9:35] overflowing crime crime is but that's

[9:37] because individuals went out as Randy

[9:39] Andy has said and I think correctly and

[9:41] taken their faith seriously and applied.

[9:43] It hasn't come through the government.

[9:44] It hasn't come through the judiciary. It

[9:46] certainly hasn't come through this

[9:47] president. Look, I care about these

[9:49] issues very deeply. But it's very clear

[9:51] to me after 20 years in this that it's

[9:54] not being any more successful than than

[9:56] the left has been trying to cure poverty

[9:58] or racism or some of these other things

[10:00] through government structures alone.

[10:02] >> Well, we've seen that we've seen the

[10:03] role of faith in this country during the

[10:05] 18th century during the revolutionary

[10:06] period. the issues of democracy and

[10:08] liberty. We saw it during the

[10:10] abolitionist movement in the 1830s on

[10:12] through the 1860s to change the issue on

[10:14] on slavery. We saw it in the women's

[10:16] suffrage movement. Um we've seen it in

[10:18] the civil rights movement. We're now

[10:19] seeing it in the pro-life movement.

[10:21] People of faith taking the rightful

[10:22] place talking about issues. We've seen a

[10:24] shift on attitudes in America. Um we've

[10:27] seen the Democrat party, two of the five

[10:28] seats they picked up last election cycle

[10:31] were pro-life, conservative, pro- family

[10:33] Democrats. Both parties are beginning to

[10:35] embrace our agenda. I think it'd be

[10:37] polyianish to say every problem has been

[10:39] solved. The crime is down, abortions

[10:41] have reduced, but we still have more

[10:42] work to do until every child in America

[10:44] grows up in a family that's secure. And

[10:46] in in

[10:47] >> Let me ask you something that I don't

[10:49] quite understand. You say you're not

[10:50] telling uh people of faith, don't stay

[10:53] away from politics. You're not you're

[10:55] not saying that a person who is a

[10:57] believing Christian who wants to change

[10:59] America both from the bottom up and the

[11:02] top down. Uh you would say stay away

[11:05] from Randy Tate. Don't go to his

[11:06] meeting. What are you saying?

[11:08] >> No, you can get a lot of great

[11:09] information from the Christian

[11:10] Coalition. I think their voters guides

[11:11] for example have been very helpful. One

[11:13] of Here are two things that we're saying

[11:14] in the book. First of all, we think all

[11:16] preachers ought to get out of partisan

[11:18] politics from Jesse Jackson to very

[11:19] Jerry Fwell. It sullies, it dilutes uh

[11:22] the gospel when preachers are out

[11:24] condemning uh political leaders or

[11:27] supporting them. Here's Jesse Jackson on

[11:28] one side saying, "Well, adultery is only

[11:30] one string on the guitar." And here are

[11:32] conservative preachers giving certain

[11:34] Republicans a free pass. This waters

[11:36] down the gospel and the and the ultimate

[11:38] objective of the church. And we'll

[11:40] finish the rest of that analogy after

[11:42] this break.

[11:42] >> You may or may not get a chance, but we

[11:45] are we are going to take a break. And uh

[11:48] when we come back, we're going to ask uh

[11:52] whether or not the Christian Coalition

[11:55] has any role left in American politics.

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[14:16] >> Keith, what's happening? It's me, Noar

[14:19] Garcia. Hey man, how can I ever repay

[14:22] you for your help this afternoon the

[14:23] 8th? We need more people like you who

[14:25] believe in the power of the rally cap.

[14:32] Amazing. Simply amazing. By the way, can

[14:36] you make any away games?

[14:41] >> Wednesday, what may be everyday business

[14:44] in some countries landed this former

[14:46] executive in federal prison.

[14:48] >> My career has been completely destroyed.

[14:50] >> The line between closing the deal and

[14:52] breaking the law. CNN and Fortune,

[14:54] Wednesday 8:7 central.

[14:56] >> Sports Tonight with Fred and Vince, 11

[14:59] Eastern on CNN.

[15:09] Welcome back to Crossfire. Blinded by

[15:11] might, a new book by two former moral

[15:14] majority officials, Cal Thomas and Ed

[15:16] Dobson, concludes, quote, "Religious

[15:18] conservatives, no matter how well

[15:20] organized, can't save America. Only God

[15:23] can. But he will only consider doing it

[15:25] if God's people get out of the way and

[15:27] give him room." End quote. We're talking

[15:30] to Randy Tate, former Republican

[15:32] congressman from the state of

[15:33] Washington, who is now executive

[15:35] director with the Christian Coalition,

[15:37] and Cal Thomas, syndicated columnist and

[15:40] co-author of Blinded by Might. Bill

[15:44] Brandy, you both sit here self-described

[15:47] prolife, but there's some differences,

[15:48] it seems to me, on emphasis on the

[15:50] issue. Let me quote again from Blinded

[15:52] by might here. uh according to Cal

[15:55] Thomas, therefore the ultimate issue is

[15:58] not whether you are pro-life or

[16:00] pro-abortion. The ultimate issue is

[16:02] whether you know Jesus personally. Do

[16:05] you agree with that?

[16:05] >> In my own personal life, the most

[16:07] important decision I ever made was a

[16:08] personal relationship in Jesus Christ.

[16:10] In the political realm, I think it's

[16:12] very important in a country where we um

[16:15] should defend life and should speak out

[16:17] for life from conception to natural

[16:18] death. To me, that is a paramount issue

[16:20] in a free society. But doesn't this uh

[16:22] statement uh mean that there are and can

[16:26] be believers on the other side of the

[16:28] issue than you and still know Jesus

[16:31] personally?

[16:32] >> There are people that can have differing

[16:33] views. As I said earlier, Bill, there

[16:34] are people that share my faith that take

[16:36] a different position on key issues. That

[16:38] is why I'm involved in the political

[16:40] process to raise these issues to defend

[16:42] the unborn. Now the one of the issues

[16:44] that joins the issue which I think is

[16:46] the heart of this book is and Cal just

[16:48] mentioned it earlier that the essential

[16:50] clash between politics and religion is

[16:52] that one is about truth and the other is

[16:54] all about compromise. And let's look at

[16:56] this abortion issue. You've got

[16:58] Republican politicians today

[17:00] compromising all over the place on your

[17:02] issue. Some of them even want Democrats

[17:04] some of them I'm talking about the

[17:06] Republicans. They want to get they want

[17:07] to get some of them abortion completely

[17:09] out of the Republican party platform. Do

[17:11] you feel betrayed by that? I

[17:13] >> I am always concerned when uh good

[17:15] people walk away from an important core

[17:17] issue such as defending the unborn. But

[17:19] you know, Bill, as I said earlier,

[17:20] >> isn't that the essence of being involved

[17:22] in politics?

[17:23] >> But we're winning. There was a there was

[17:24] a poll done by UCLA that found that

[17:26] there's been a 15% drop, Bill, in the

[17:28] number of freshmen entering schools

[17:30] today and in our colleges uh that

[17:32] believe now that take a more of a

[17:34] pro-life position than they did

[17:36] politics.

[17:37] >> Absolutely. Fay Waddton said that it

[17:39] made a a difference. Religious

[17:40] conservatives raising this issue. They

[17:42] had former head of Planned Parenthood

[17:43] said that religious conservatives

[17:45] involved in the political square have

[17:46] made a difference and I think it has.

[17:48] >> Let me let me respond briefly. Do you

[17:50] think it ought to stay in the platform

[17:51] or not?

[17:52] >> Oh, absolutely. No question. I thought I

[17:54] didn't Well, you do not. I said I said

[18:00] some Republicans never Thomas say that.

[18:02] >> Well, I'm not a Republican. I'm a

[18:03] conservative. There is a difference.

[18:04] Cal, I I want to try to put down whether

[18:07] there is a role for the Christian

[18:08] coalition. You say their voter guides

[18:10] are good. You say that the preacher

[18:12] should get out of the out of the pulpit.

[18:14] Now Pat Robertson says he's not a

[18:16] preacher anymore and I have to believe

[18:18] him. He he disengaged himself in that.

[18:20] Ralph Reed who ran the Christian

[18:22] Coalition was not a preacher. Uh you

[18:24] have not entered the I'm a lay person.

[18:26] I'm a recovering politician.

[18:28] >> So So what what are you saying that that

[18:29] these people should should because they

[18:31] they're are Christians should should not

[18:33] be in politics? No, absolutely not. I

[18:35] think every citizen of the United States

[18:37] has not only a right but an obligation

[18:40] to participate in the political life of

[18:42] their party.

[18:44] >> One of the great things that people like

[18:45] Jerry Fwell and Pat Robertson and many

[18:48] others did was to awaken people to their

[18:52] social responsibilities. Anyone reading

[18:54] the scriptures knows, particularly in

[18:56] the book of James, that it's faith and

[18:57] works. The two go together. You can't

[19:00] just say have a nice day to the guy in

[19:02] the ditch unless you, you know, help him

[19:03] out as well. The two go together. What

[19:05] my concern is is that we've all been in

[19:08] politics long enough in this town to

[19:09] realize how this works. is that the

[19:11] conservative Christians in this country

[19:13] run run the risk of doing the same thing

[19:15] that happened to the liberal uh friends

[19:17] on the other side the National Council

[19:19] of Churches crowd becoming a holy own

[19:21] subsidiary an appendage of in the NCC's

[19:24] case the Democrat party and to be just

[19:27] another competit

[19:29] power like labor unions like racial

[19:31] groups like the gay rights lobby you go

[19:33] to their groups you say a few things

[19:34] that kind of get them on the hook you

[19:36] get their vote then you forget about

[19:37] them afterwards

[19:38] >> let me let me uh raise something that uh

[19:41] disturbed me a little bit. You you are

[19:42] it's a very entertaining book by the way

[19:44] and and you you're you're very lively in

[19:47] attacking some of your critics of Dr.

[19:49] James down Dobson. I guess no relation

[19:51] to your to your call

[19:53] >> any more than I am to Clarence Thomas.

[19:54] >> That's right.

[19:56] >> Uh you also attack Pat Robertson.

[19:59] They're not attacks. We give Pat an

[20:01] interview. He gets his say there

[20:02] unedited. It's very fair. All right, let

[20:04] me finish my my On the other hand, you

[20:07] just slobber on your on how much you

[20:10] like Norman Lear, uh, who is just, uh,

[20:13] you know, I think he has put out a lot

[20:14] of trash with the certainly far on the

[20:16] left.

[20:17] >> I didn't gave him a chance to be heard

[20:19] >> and you talk about how much you treasure

[20:21] your friendship with Teddy Kennedy. You

[20:23] know, you give all the signs of being

[20:25] co-opted by the left.

[20:26] >> Well, you know, Bob Jesus was a friend

[20:28] of Republicans and sinners. Those were

[20:30] the early Democrats. And he uh and he he

[20:32] hung out with the unwashed, the tax

[20:34] collectors, the prostitutes, and all of

[20:36] the rest. Yeah, I think it's important

[20:37] to develop friendships. But since when

[20:39] did a friendship with somebody you

[20:40] disagree with politically, since when

[20:42] did that not represent the idea of But

[20:45] you're tougher on your enemies, on your

[20:46] on your Well, I am. Yes, I am. I think

[20:49] that they are held we are held to a

[20:51] higher standard of accountability. And I

[20:53] think that we model before people the

[20:55] kingdom of God. We don't expect that out

[20:57] of some of our theological

[20:59] >> I want you to respond to that that the

[21:00] Christian coalition has in effect become

[21:02] just another special interest in this

[21:04] town that you basically debased religion

[21:06] down to being on the same level as

[21:07] everybody else around here who's

[21:08] scrambling for a vote on a bill.

[21:10] >> Well, I I find it find it interesting

[21:12] when when that comment is made. I mean,

[21:14] our office is located three and a half

[21:15] hours from here. We only have three

[21:16] people that work in DC. You know why we

[21:18] have an impact on Washington? Because we

[21:20] have chapters in every state of this

[21:21] country. People that pay attention. They

[21:22] don't get paid a penny. It it is bubble

[21:24] up um grassroots. It's not trickle down

[21:27] morality. And I think that's an

[21:29] important point to make. Also, our

[21:31] involvement in politics isn't about

[21:33] isn't about politics per se or parties

[21:36] or even power. It's about principles

[21:38] that need to be raised and issues that

[21:39] need to be discussed in the public realm

[21:41] that are important to the vast majority

[21:43] of Americans.

[21:44] >> Fall into the trap of thinking that the

[21:46] solution to every problem is to pass a

[21:47] bill.

[21:48] >> No, I agree. I think it's a mistake to

[21:50] >> That's I mean I read your stuff. You get

[21:52] so many people elected so they support

[21:54] your agenda and you pass a piece of

[21:55] legislation. How much you get done that

[21:57] way for religion.

[21:58] >> I I believe that people of faith should

[22:00] have an opportunity to be involved in

[22:01] the political realm. We make a mistake

[22:03] if we believe that all problems can be

[22:04] solved by politics. I don't think we've

[22:06] ever said that. But I do believe that we

[22:08] in my thinking on render under Caesar

[22:10] what is due Caesar in a democracy that

[22:12] means you should be educated. You should

[22:14] be registered to vote and you should go

[22:15] out and play a role in your community.

[22:17] >> I think he's coming your way. We thank

[22:19] you both for coming our way tonight.

[22:21] Good to have you here for us. Thomas,

[22:23] great to have you back. Bob Novak,

[22:25] Reverend Novak and I, we wrap up this

[22:28] show on religion with our closing

[22:30] comments.

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[28:48] >> The Moneyline NewsHour with Lou Dos.

[28:50] Week night, 6:30 Eastern on CNN.

[28:55] >> Bill, you can't kid me. You're an old

[28:56] Democratic politician and you know that

[28:59] the Christian conservatives are to the

[29:01] Republican party where organized labor

[29:02] is to the Democrats. the Republicans

[29:05] cannot do without these uh these

[29:08] conservative these right-wing religious

[29:10] groups and uh and Cal Thomas should know

[29:12] it and you do know it.

[29:13] >> Well, there's a difference, Bob. The

[29:14] power of organized labor is coming up

[29:16] and the power of the religious right,

[29:18] political power, I think, is waning. I

[29:20] think the essence of this book is it's

[29:22] important that people of faith be

[29:24] involved in politics. The mistake is to

[29:26] assume that God is on the side of one

[29:28] party or one particular issue, which a

[29:30] Christian coalition has done, and that's

[29:31] where they have failed. Thomas is right.

[29:33] That's a lot of clap trap because what

[29:34] what this is read about is political

[29:36] power and this this is these are the

[29:38] foot troops of the Republican party and

[29:41] you want a

[29:42] >> No, Bob, where in the Bible does it say

[29:43] there ought to be a balanced budget or a

[29:45] flat tax?

[29:46] >> I wasn't talking about the Bible. I was

[29:48] talking about politics, friend.

[29:49] >> These guys are saying the left. I'm Bill

[29:52] Press. Good night for Crossfire.

[29:53] >> On the right, I'm Robert Novak. Join us

[29:55] again next time for another edition of

[29:57] Crossfire.

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