Dr. Phil - 2006-11-24
Channel: malgent
Transcript
Language: English (original, YouTube automatic captions)
[0:01] It's Ellen's last day in New York
[0:03] Friday.
[0:05] >> Principles, not rules.
[0:06] >> We now join this program in progress.
[0:09] >> I think rules are made.
[0:12] >> It's hard to explain. Let me just gather
[0:15] myself for a minute.
[0:16] >> Okay. Well, think about that. Are you
[0:17] worried that you're running your own
[0:19] agenda here? Because you didn't have a
[0:21] good school experience, right? Right.
[0:23] >> You said it was negative. You were like
[0:24] a C student. You dropped out senior
[0:26] year,
[0:27] >> right? And so it was not a success
[0:30] experience for you. Are you taking that
[0:33] experience and putting it onto your
[0:35] children by running your own agenda? And
[0:36] you're their dad, so it's your right to
[0:38] run your own agenda. But do you think
[0:41] that's necessarily an objective way to
[0:43] look at it and make the decision?
[0:45] >> I wasn't great at certain subjects. I
[0:47] was excelling at others. So where, you
[0:49] know, math and science came easy, the
[0:51] computers came easy, was harder to read
[0:53] and write. And of course, I picked that
[0:55] up later. At this point, you say
[0:57] learning is not the goal.
[0:59] >> You say living is the goal and learning
[1:01] is a side effect.
[1:02] >> No, learning is the goal all the time.
[1:03] They they learn 247. They learn all day
[1:06] every day. It's kind of a belief in in
[1:08] how children learn. It's the belief that
[1:10] children learn when they're internally
[1:11] motivated as opposed to somebody else's
[1:13] agenda. Education is not the goal of
[1:15] unschooling.
[1:16] >> Okay. Well, here's what I'm concerned
[1:17] about, and I'm really very open-minded
[1:19] about this at this point. And I have to
[1:21] tell you, I maybe should recuse myself
[1:23] because you all look at this from your
[1:25] own standpoint, and
[1:27] I hated school. I did. I I I hated every
[1:31] minute of every hour of every day, of
[1:34] every week, of every month, of every
[1:35] year I went to school. I did. I ju I
[1:37] just I didn't like it. But if you had
[1:39] taken me out of traditional school and
[1:41] said, "Okay, you set your own pace. It's
[1:44] up to you." You learn what you want to
[1:47] learn. You choose. You do it. You say
[1:50] you let them watch as much TV as they
[1:51] want. Eat as much as they want. No
[1:54] guidelines, no restrictions in in any of
[1:57] those areas. No requirements. They want
[1:59] to watch TV all day instead of read a
[2:00] book. It's fine. You just meet them
[2:02] where they are, right?
[2:03] >> Yep.
[2:04] >> Because it would be disrespectful not
[2:05] to. I'm telling you, I would be a
[2:07] vegetable now if my parents had said
[2:10] that to me. I I had absolutely no thirst
[2:12] for knowledge. I they couldn't hardly
[2:15] get me in school when they took me to
[2:16] school. I'd beat them home sometimes.
[2:19] So if you just said, "Okay, there Phil,
[2:22] it's up to you." I to just sat there
[2:25] like a lump. Do you worry that that by
[2:28] not providing structure and goals and
[2:31] and some kind of timeline so they can
[2:33] experience themselves, master some
[2:35] things, meet some goals, that they're
[2:37] not going to be ready to compete in the
[2:39] outside world?
[2:40] >> There's a lot of things I'd like to
[2:41] address with what you said. Um, for one,
[2:43] they don't watch TV all day and they
[2:44] don't eat junk all day because we don't
[2:46] have limits on it. It's really different
[2:47] when you don't have limits. Now, now a
[2:49] child may decide to watch TV all day if
[2:51] they generally have limits and then
[2:52] they're taken away and told they could
[2:53] do whatever they want. But where TV is
[2:55] just one of many choices in our house,
[2:57] it's just like any other choice that
[2:58] they would make. They watch maybe an
[3:00] hour a day if that. It's our job to
[3:01] provide them with nutritious food. And
[3:03] so, we do that. We we give them, you
[3:04] know, we buy all the nutritious food and
[3:05] they choose what they want to eat, but
[3:07] we still have some structure. It's not
[3:08] no structure at all. We have a rhythm to
[3:10] the day. But you said they'd set the
[3:12] structure. They decide what they want to
[3:14] do.
[3:14] >> But we have to provide what those items
[3:16] are.
[3:17] >> I'm not saying that you're being lazy or
[3:19] irresponsible about it. But here's my
[3:21] other concern.
[3:23] The rest of the world
[3:26] functions on a whole different agenda.
[3:29] And I've always thought you could break
[3:32] parenting up into like three huge
[3:34] stages. You know, one there's
[3:36] dependency. That's when they're totally
[3:37] dependent on you as infants. You have to
[3:39] feed them, clothe them, carry them,
[3:41] protect them in every possible way. Then
[3:43] second, you go into this preparatory
[3:45] phase where as parents, you're preparing
[3:47] your children to function in the world
[3:49] because the third stage is performance.
[3:52] So there's dependency, preparation, and
[3:55] then performance. Are they going to be
[3:57] prepared to compete with those who have
[3:59] dealt with that all of their growing up
[4:02] life when your children have not?
[4:04] >> Well, we believe our children, they're
[4:05] in the real world by being homeschoolers
[4:07] and being educated at home. We're in the
[4:08] real world every day. It's kids in
[4:10] school that are in a building all day
[4:12] kind of away from the real world.
[4:13] >> But but your kids don't work against
[4:14] deadline.
[4:16] >> They have their own deadlines. They set
[4:17] their own goals. They do.
[4:18] >> But the world doesn't do that. They
[4:19] don't hire you and say, "Okay, just do
[4:21] your best and check in at the end of the
[4:24] day." That's not the way it works. And
[4:26] and you say your children are going to
[4:27] grow up and be entrepreneurs, but they
[4:29] may not.
[4:30] >> They can do whatever they want. Whatever
[4:31] their choices, whatever their goals are
[4:33] in life are there to facilitate that.
[4:35] The question I'm raising, are Joe and
[4:37] Dana's children learning what they need
[4:40] to be able to function when they are on
[4:43] their own outside the nuclear family
[4:45] home? That's a question. I'm going to
[4:47] let them respond to that when we come
[4:48] back.
[5:00] >> Dad, are those your new PJs?
[5:04] Yeah, your grandmother got them for me.
[5:05] But uh Hey, hey,
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[5:28] >> We've been together a long time, but I
[5:30] need a change. You're dirty and sloppy
[5:33] and I feel like we go over the same
[5:35] stuff again and again. And I know it
[5:37] hurts, but I found something better.
[5:40] >> Drop your mop. Get the improved Swiffer
[5:43] WetJet. It has a new dirt dissolving
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[5:59] Stop doing those dishes and play your
[6:01] video games.
[6:02] >> Nothing's more important than your
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[7:41] 5.
[7:51] Did you want to nurse or just read? I'm
[7:53] going to breastfeed as long as Ivy needs
[7:55] to. And Ivy's almost two and still
[7:56] nursing. When she outgrows the need,
[7:58] we're done. Hold on. Attachment
[8:00] parenting is a natural approach to
[8:02] parenting, meeting the child's needs.
[8:04] The purpose of it is to strengthen
[8:06] emotional bonds. On a typical day, we
[8:08] spend 24 hours a day together.
[8:10] >> As far as our sleeping arrangement goes,
[8:12] we did the crib thing. We let him cry
[8:14] for a minute. It just didn't work. You
[8:15] know, we just felt wrong about it. So,
[8:17] we brought them in bed with us. Their
[8:18] needs are met. They're not scared.
[8:20] They're not alone. We've had stints of
[8:23] Dakota and Devon both trying sleeping in
[8:25] their own beds and it's all worked back
[8:27] into the family bed.
[8:28] >> The sex life question comes up often
[8:30] with co-sleep. The sanctity of the
[8:31] marital bed, for example. Well, to us,
[8:33] it's not a material thing. That sanctity
[8:35] is anywhere we feel like having it. If
[8:38] somebody has sex only in their bed, I
[8:39] kind of feel bad for them.
[8:43] >> To school or not to school. Now, that is
[8:45] the question that we're asking today.
[8:47] Now Dana and her husband Joe are what
[8:49] are called unschoolers. In fact, they
[8:51] describe themselves as radical
[8:52] unschoolers. And they say it is cruel
[8:54] and disrespectful to put a child in
[8:56] school. Every kid in America is up
[8:59] cheering right now. They say education
[9:01] happens as a side effect of living life.
[9:04] One of the things that I really hated in
[9:07] school, among many things, as I've said,
[9:11] uh was history. I thought it was boring
[9:13] and irrelevant. And I said, "Those are a
[9:15] bunch of dead people. Why do I care?
[9:17] Then I later learned that history tends
[9:20] to repeat itself
[9:23] and that what happened yestery year in
[9:26] many respects can predict what's going
[9:28] to happen next year. And so all of a
[9:31] sudden I had a real interest in that
[9:34] because I want to know what the markets
[9:35] were going to do, what things were going
[9:37] to happen. How are your kids going to
[9:40] learn those kind of things if if they're
[9:43] not in a curriculum that presents that?
[9:45] It's just like you said, you made the
[9:46] connection. You you you weren't
[9:48] interested in history.
[9:49] >> I was 30.
[9:50] >> Well, no, but but you weren't but once
[9:52] you found the interest that piqued your,
[9:54] "Oh, wait. There's a reason I should
[9:56] know some of this." You embraced it and
[9:58] you probably liked it more than you
[10:01] hated it.
[10:01] >> I think it's internal motivation again.
[10:03] And I think schools feel as though they
[10:04] have all the knowledge of the world
[10:05] locked up in that building. But you can
[10:07] find anything you can learn in school,
[10:08] you could find somewhere else. You could
[10:09] find on the computer, you could find in
[10:10] books. There's so many resources. Devon
[10:12] knows as much as any child in school,
[10:15] but he's learned it in different ways.
[10:16] So unschooling isn't anti-school by any
[10:18] means. It's just alternatives to the way
[10:20] that children traditionally learn with
[10:22] somebody standing in front telling them
[10:23] facts.
[10:24] >> Do they not need to learn to work in a
[10:27] scenario that is mainstream society?
[10:31] >> They can learn those skills in other
[10:33] places though, you know, other than
[10:34] school as far as teamwork. You know, the
[10:36] children played Deon played soccer with
[10:38] the town league. I mean, there's so many
[10:39] other scenarios where children are
[10:41] working with others. It just just
[10:43] doesn't have to be in school.
[10:44] >> Okay. Well, I want to hear from some of
[10:45] the teachers in the crowd. Where's Eda?
[10:47] >> I disagree. Obviously, I take a
[10:49] different point of view. U for a couple
[10:50] of reasons. First of all, the public
[10:52] school system is like a biological
[10:54] entity. It's a living thing. It changes.
[10:57] It adapts. Um you receive students that
[10:59] come from everywhere. The
[11:00] diversification and I believe that the
[11:03] school accomplishes two things. First of
[11:05] all, uh it teaches comprehensive skills.
[11:08] cognitive skills. Also, it's the
[11:10] socialization. The fact that the boys
[11:12] and girls are learning how to get along
[11:14] with students from everywhere.
[11:16] >> Do you worry about socialization being
[11:18] missing? And do you worry about them
[11:20] getting a very
[11:22] one point of view exposure from you
[11:25] parents?
[11:26] >> Not at all. I feel like it's our job to
[11:27] give our children as much of the world
[11:29] as possible. Not keep them in this
[11:30] little box of our ideals. We give them
[11:32] as much of the world as possible. We
[11:33] have homeschooling support groups that
[11:35] we get together with every week with
[11:36] other people, not just unschoolers. Um,
[11:38] I mean, other, you know, traditional
[11:40] homeschoolers as well. Our children are
[11:42] in group settings with people from all
[11:43] different backgrounds. So,
[11:45] >> I got to tell you, about seventh grade,
[11:47] my kids came in and threw down a math
[11:50] book and flipped open to page five and
[11:53] said, "Dad, can you help me with this?"
[11:55] I'm like, "No,
[11:57] I can't help you with that cuz I don't
[11:59] know. I don't understand it. I don't
[12:00] know that. What are you kidding me?" And
[12:02] and in your line of work, you don't need
[12:03] to know that. And in a lot of lines of
[12:05] work, you don't. But you didn't need to
[12:06] know what was on that page for this job.
[12:08] And we're assuming that if they need to
[12:11] know, like, you know, I'm self-employed.
[12:12] I I knew when I had my other job what I
[12:15] needed to do there. And when I became
[12:16] self-employed, I had to go and learn all
[12:18] those things that I did then. and and
[12:20] it, you know, it's just a self-taught
[12:22] much more motivated and faster than a
[12:25] stigmatized school that looks down on
[12:27] the shunned or the the people that can't
[12:29] keep up and praises and rewards the
[12:32] people that can. I mean, I live through
[12:33] it. I've seen it. I I mean, I was there.
[12:35] >> That's what I mean. You are kind of
[12:36] anti-school.
[12:37] >> No, I don't think we are though as much
[12:38] as it
[12:39] >> has to do with free choice though. If my
[12:40] It has to do with putting a child in
[12:42] school against their will. I don't think
[12:43] it's true freedom to do that to
[12:45] somebody.
[12:45] >> They're children.
[12:46] >> That's right. And I think that in this
[12:47] culture, we think we live in a different
[12:48] social plane. Why don't children deserve
[12:50] the same respect as adults in their
[12:51] choices?
[12:52] >> Because they can't predict the
[12:53] consequences of their actions yet.
[12:55] They're children.
[12:56] >> See, children's brains aren't finished
[12:58] growing yet. They don't have an
[13:00] experience base. A child can't predict
[13:02] what happens if I do or don't do this.
[13:05] And so, parents have to guide that.
[13:07] That's why you don't let children make
[13:08] those decisions. That's why they're not
[13:10] on an equal plane. That's why you you
[13:12] don't treat children as equals. And
[13:14] there has to be a leadership role in the
[13:16] family structure because they're just
[13:18] it's like taking a a a puppy out that's
[13:20] never seen a car before and let them run
[13:22] into the street. They can't do that. You
[13:23] they have to have some experiences
[13:25] first. And children have to have an
[13:26] opportunity to grow and learn from their
[13:28] experiences before they start making the
[13:30] decisions. Next, parents who say
[13:33] unschooling is controlling and
[13:35] communistic and a mother who says school
[13:37] offers children a subpar education. Be
[13:40] right back.
[13:46] I believe that homeschooling is good for
[13:49] families who don't want to create
[13:51] automatons or factory workers and who
[13:54] want their families to make a difference
[13:55] in the future. I fully support the
[13:57] public schools. It's a comprehensive
[13:59] education. It's also the socialization.
[14:02] They are learning to get along in a
[14:04] diversified society. The best parts of
[14:06] homeschooling, the kids get to ask
[14:08] questions. They get to move at their own
[14:09] pace. You get to make sure that God is
[14:12] part of their lives. I'm a public school
[14:14] teacher and teachers are constantly
[14:16] undergoing training to better educate
[14:18] the students of today. I believe that
[14:20] homeschooling would have a difficult
[14:21] time providing the expertise that
[14:23] teachers in the public schools can do.
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[14:45] >> Angry shoppers at a local electronic
[14:47] store this morning. More than a dozen
[14:48] cars towed and customers stunned when
[14:51] they couldn't find their vehicles. And
[14:52] they unleashed their anger. You'll hear
[14:54] more accusations against Seinfeld star
[14:56] Michael Richards. Now there are
[14:58] allegations he lashed out at Jews when
[15:00] he was heckled at a show earlier this
[15:02] year. And how's the weather shaping up
[15:04] for the weekend? We'll have that
[15:05] forecast you need as folks head back
[15:06] home. Coin News 6 coming your way this
[15:08] afternoon at 5 o'clock. We'll see you
[15:10] then.
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[17:15] >> All new Monday. The twins on heroin.
[17:17] >> That is one skanky co-core.
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[17:22] >> The ultimate intervention.
[17:23] >> I'm going to get you off the drugs.
[17:25] >> Next, Dr. Bill House. That's Monday.
[17:36] Well, today we're having a great school
[17:38] debate. Now, Paula and her husband Rick
[17:40] say that public schooling is better than
[17:42] unschooling or homeschooling either one.
[17:45] But Carrie Lynn says that she is a
[17:47] hardcore homeschooler and she secretly
[17:50] wishes for the complete collapse of the
[17:53] traditional school system. Tell me your
[17:56] position, Paula. I understand when you
[17:59] say that, you know, they do get some
[18:02] socialization, but not near as much as
[18:05] children get when they get put on a bus
[18:08] in school every single day with other
[18:11] kids with other
[18:13] >> Sometimes that socialization can include
[18:15] dodging bullets. Uh, it can include kids
[18:20] behind the gym with drugs and cigarettes
[18:23] and all kinds of influences that you
[18:26] don't want. So, I mean, there's more
[18:28] socialization, but is more necessarily
[18:31] better?
[18:32] >> More socialization is better? I mean,
[18:34] the violence,
[18:35] >> you recognize there's a huge downside to
[18:37] it. There's a huge downside to sending
[18:40] your kids to a fast food restaurant or
[18:44] 7-Eleven where they're after 9:00
[18:46] >> or putting them in a car. Do you put
[18:47] your children in a car?
[18:48] >> I do.
[18:49] >> Over 3 million Americans are killed
[18:53] >> in the United States a year in a car.
[18:55] >> What do you say about this?
[18:56] >> Well, socialization. I My kids are are
[19:00] very busy, very involved with uh all
[19:02] ages of children. I mean, there's just
[19:05] not, as a matter of fact, more often
[19:07] than not, I'm saying, "Let's take a
[19:09] break from all of this because they are
[19:11] around kids um most of the day, every
[19:14] day." And and they're wonderful children
[19:17] and they have deep, meaningful
[19:19] relationships that are also
[19:20] homeschooled. So, it's it's it's like
[19:22] you've created an environment,
[19:24] >> not necessarily if they're on a team at
[19:25] the Y or something like that. There are
[19:27] kids from every walk of life, right?
[19:29] >> Our kids are actually the only
[19:30] homeschooled kids on their teams. We
[19:32] Yeah, there's sports. There's all kind.
[19:34] And the fact that they have kids who are
[19:36] in public education, they're friends
[19:38] >> because you you take them to, you know,
[19:40] community activities, right? Totally.
[19:42] It's It's not like they play for the
[19:43] unschool Panthers.
[19:45] >> No. No. Actually, we're the only we're
[19:46] the only unschoolers that we that we
[19:48] know in real life around where we live.
[19:50] Actually, our most of our child
[19:51] socialization is with school kids or
[19:53] homeschooled kids, private school kids.
[19:54] >> Do you worry about things like Coline
[19:57] and that that sort of thing? Is that
[19:59] part of your decision?
[20:01] >> Actually, that's what started my whole I
[20:02] my right after I gave birth to my first
[20:04] son, the first thing I saw on TV as I
[20:07] held them for the first time with Coline
[20:08] happening live.
[20:09] >> Your kids are going to grow up and make
[20:12] decisions about like my healthcare or
[20:15] make public policy that's going to
[20:17] affect me everybody. So, yeah, I care
[20:20] about
[20:20] >> Why is that a bad thing though? Like,
[20:22] how do you see that as being negative?
[20:25] Like do you think my children are going
[20:26] to make bad choices for you
[20:28] >> in your definitely in the unschooling
[20:31] department? Yes. In the radical
[20:33] schooling, you're saying they learn.
[20:35] There's a difference between learning
[20:38] just being out there learning like I'm
[20:40] learning right now about a lot of things
[20:42] and reading books and being books smart.
[20:45] There's a huge difference.
[20:46] >> Our children are quite book.
[20:47] >> Okay, hold on. Where's Kathy?
[20:49] >> There's a proverb that says,
[20:50] "Foolishness is bound up in the heart of
[20:51] a child." So the first math lesson of
[20:54] homeschooling is when you put your kid
[20:56] in a classroom full of 30 other kids,
[20:58] you get 31 fools. Children are not the
[21:02] best socializers of each other. There
[21:04] needs to be some oversight, some
[21:06] supervision, some some people presenting
[21:09] the principles that you're talking
[21:10] about.
[21:11] >> Okay. But but see this has got to be a
[21:12] partnership between parents at home who
[21:15] are doing a lot of the value teaching
[21:18] the morality teaching the the principal
[21:21] teaching and the teacher who is at the
[21:24] classroom and is teaching the subject
[21:28] matter the content. the school system
[21:30] contemplates a partnership between
[21:32] parents and teachers and and see one of
[21:34] the things that concerns me that we
[21:36] haven't talked about is I believe that
[21:39] teaching is a science.
[21:42] These teachers that get their teaching
[21:45] certificates they are availed of a
[21:48] tremendous amount of research tried and
[21:50] proven teaching methods to present the
[21:53] greatest degree of clarity with regard
[21:55] to a particular subject matter. And I
[21:57] can tell you as a parent that hasn't had
[21:59] that training, I just don't think that I
[22:01] would be as adept at imparting that
[22:05] information to the student as a teacher
[22:07] that has been trained in the educational
[22:09] science.
[22:11] >> What I do
[22:11] >> you concern yourself about that? Do you
[22:13] concern yourself about that? That you're
[22:15] not as good a teacher as somebody that's
[22:18] been trained to be a teacher?
[22:19] >> I don't consider myself my child's
[22:20] teacher. And also, I think that teaching
[22:22] has to be a two two-way street. If the
[22:23] child's not interested in what they're
[22:25] being taught, basically the person
[22:26] standing in front of the room talking,
[22:27] it's like throwing marshmallows at
[22:29] somebody's head and calling it eating.
[22:30] >> Well, I want to respond to that, but I
[22:31] have to take a break. Next, a mother who
[22:33] says her kids are safer at home with her
[22:36] gun than at public school with strangers
[22:38] who can show up with a gun. We'll be
[22:40] right back.
[22:49] >> I do believe that public schools have
[22:51] become more dangerous. if I'm not
[22:53] willing to put my girls in jeopardy and
[22:55] risk losing them to a monster that would
[22:58] come in and torture them or take their
[22:59] lives.
[23:00] >> I disagree with Ran. I'm very passionate
[23:02] about kids going to public schools.
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[25:54] Breaking news right now. A hostage drama
[25:56] at a Colorado high school comes to a
[25:58] violent end.
[25:59] >> The gunman who held six students hostage
[26:01] there in Colorado is dead. The
[26:03] unidentified man stormed onto that
[26:05] campus in Bailey, Colorado, and opened
[26:07] fire. There are reports the gunman shot
[26:09] one of his student hostages before he
[26:11] was killed by police. Parents and
[26:14] terrified children so glad to be alive
[26:16] there. Fears run very deep.
[26:18] >> Principal was shot inside the school
[26:20] this morning by a 15-year-old student.
[26:23] >> Hantock entered Weston School carrying
[26:26] two guns that he had pried from a
[26:27] parents gun locker at their home. Got to
[26:30] the principal, shot him three times, in
[26:32] the leg once, in the head once, and in
[26:34] the mid torso.
[26:36] A one room schoolhouse in Amish country
[26:39] becomes a murder scene as a gunman
[26:42] seeking revenge opens fire.
[26:44] >> He split them up, males and females. He
[26:47] let the males go.
[26:48] >> With the little girls as hostages, the
[26:50] gunman barricades himself in the school.
[26:52] >> He bound the female victims out by the
[26:55] blackboard and apparently executed them.
[26:58] >> It's terrible.
[27:00] >> So, it's not I just can't believe it. Do
[27:02] you know anyone who goes well?
[27:06] >> Yes.
[27:08] >> Well, today we're debating the best way
[27:10] to educate children. Now, the recent
[27:12] school shootings have parents worried
[27:14] about sending their children to school.
[27:16] There were three shootings in a week.
[27:19] Now, Rayanne and her husband Steve want
[27:22] me to weigh in on their great school
[27:24] debate. Rain says that schools aren't
[27:27] safe and she is adamant that her
[27:29] children will get a better education if
[27:31] they're homeschooled, but Steve says,
[27:33] "No way.
[27:34] >> My husband Steve believes that our girls
[27:37] should go to a public school."
[27:39] >> Ran feels that homeschooling is the
[27:41] best.
[27:41] >> I believe that my husband Steve is
[27:43] wrong.
[27:43] >> I disagree with Ran.
[27:45] >> I do believe that public schools have
[27:48] become more dangerous. I'm not willing
[27:50] to put my girls in jeopardy and risk
[27:52] losing them to a monster that would come
[27:54] in and torture them or take their life.
[27:56] >> We live in Loveland, Colorado. Coline is
[27:59] approximately 45 miles away and Bailey
[28:02] is approximately 90 mi away. Bailey is
[28:05] the site of the most recent tragedy
[28:06] where Emily Keys was shot down and
[28:09] murdered.
[28:10] >> I don't believe that sending him to
[28:12] school is any safer than making them
[28:14] stay home. If you go to the bank, you
[28:16] can get robbed or shot there. or if you
[28:18] drive in a car, you can get hit. I think
[28:20] public schools are very safe.
[28:22] >> The death of Emily Keys hit home because
[28:24] I pictured my girls being 16 and in that
[28:28] situation, not being there to protect
[28:31] them and never seeing them get married
[28:33] or graduate college. It was very, very
[28:36] personal for me.
[28:38] >> Ran is very protective of her kids. If
[28:40] she could, she'd wrap them up in bubble
[28:42] wrap and keep them here at home as long
[28:44] as possible.
[28:46] No one is going to take better care of
[28:47] my girls than I will.
[28:49] >> If they're here being homeschooled, the
[28:51] kids will not get socially adjusted. My
[28:54] kids will be missing out on prom,
[28:55] flirting, having their first crush on
[28:57] teacher. This little stuff that helps
[28:58] you grow into a welladjusted adult.
[29:01] >> It's not like I would be keeping our
[29:04] girls a prisoner in our home. There are
[29:07] gymnastics, dance classes, cheerleading,
[29:10] orchestra, sport, church, band, choir.
[29:13] >> Rianne's very smart. She probably could
[29:15] teach them, but she'd also have to learn
[29:17] a lot of it herself. It'd be like um the
[29:20] blind leading the blind. She'd be
[29:22] learning it the day before she'd be
[29:24] teaching it.
[29:25] >> I really don't see a lot of drawbacks
[29:28] for me being a teacher for the girls.
[29:31] I'm familiar with planning and
[29:32] preparation of classes and grading. In
[29:35] my mind, I have made my decision.
[29:37] >> I know I'm right and I'm not going to
[29:39] lose because I'm very stubborn. I'm very
[29:41] passionate about kids going to public
[29:43] schools. I'm very adamant about my
[29:45] stance on homeschooling.
[29:47] >> We use Dr. Phil convince my wife that
[29:49] public schools are the only way to go.
[29:52] >> Help me convince my husband that
[29:54] homeschooling is the right thing to do.
[29:58] >> Okay. Now, has anything that we've
[30:00] discussed up here so far changed your
[30:02] view about it at all?
[30:03] >> No.
[30:04] >> No. Anything we discussed so far changed
[30:06] your view about you haven't heard
[30:07] anything?
[30:08] >> No, not at all.
[30:09] >> Okay. Well, thanks for coming.
[30:13] So, are you concerned that if you
[30:15] unschool
[30:17] that your children may not be
[30:20] competitive in the work a day
[30:23] performanceoriented world?
[30:25] >> I don't believe in the couple that was
[30:28] just up here. That is like way out of
[30:31] what our beliefs are. I do believe in a
[30:33] structured education. Um, but I don't
[30:37] believe it has to be done in a public
[30:38] school system. I don't believe it has to
[30:39] be done in a public setting. Um, I
[30:42] believe that I can do it with the tools
[30:44] that they have out there for
[30:46] homeschooling anymore. My girls, I
[30:48] believe, are going to get a better
[30:49] education than they possibly could in a
[30:50] public school.
[30:51] >> Okay. What happens when you get to that
[30:53] age where peers kick in and all of a
[30:57] sudden they want to belong to a group of
[31:00] friends. They want to be around boys and
[31:04] girls all day. They want to be involved
[31:06] in the social process
[31:08] that is the community of life. when
[31:11] you're at that age. What do you feel
[31:12] about that?
[31:13] >> Everybody keeps talking about that and
[31:15] it it makes it sound like homeschooling,
[31:17] we lock our kids in a dungeon in the
[31:19] basement and we throw books at them and
[31:21] we'll feed them food and water every 3
[31:23] or four hours. And that's not what
[31:25] homeschooling is about. We have
[31:27] churches. We have 4 that my girls will
[31:30] be involved in. There's gymnastics.
[31:32] There's still sports that they
[31:33] participate in with the public school
[31:35] systems. There are so many things out
[31:37] there that the the my girls would be a
[31:40] part of that the the concept of them not
[31:44] being socialized is is just laughable.
[31:47] >> Well, actually, it's not laughable.
[31:48] There's a lot of research that suggests
[31:50] that what I said is in fact a problem
[31:52] after they hit puberty and they get into
[31:55] those mid school, middle school years.
[31:57] So, it isn't laughable at all. In fact,
[31:59] it is substantiated by experience. if
[32:01] the parents are not involved, if the
[32:03] parents don't take that extra step to
[32:05] have their children participate in these
[32:07] things.
[32:08] >> And I've said, I don't think that's all
[32:09] positive that they're participating in
[32:11] what I described, but there does seem to
[32:13] be a developmental deficit from middle
[32:16] school years on for those that don't get
[32:18] involved in the school process itself.
[32:20] She's describing something here that
[32:23] sounds peachy keen. What's your problem
[32:24] with it?
[32:26] >> Just about everything. I mean,
[32:29] you just can't lock, you know, lock your
[32:31] kids away and hide them out.
[32:34] >> Oh, so that's who's been saying this?
[32:36] >> Cuz I didn't think it was me. I was
[32:37] wondering who's saying this.
[32:39] >> You just can't do that. I mean, you you
[32:41] have to let your kids experience life.
[32:43] >> Are you concerned with with what he's
[32:45] saying? And and are you concerned that
[32:47] there's a point at which your child
[32:49] needs to be separate from mom and stand
[32:53] on their own and not have you in the
[32:55] room, not have your presence there, not
[32:57] have you overseeing and and
[32:59] overshadowing everything? With the way
[33:02] that the world is starting to come to
[33:04] and the the circumstances that are
[33:07] putting our children in danger, I would
[33:10] rather be overprotective and have my
[33:13] girls be alive to resent me and be alive
[33:17] to say I wish.
[33:19] >> Okay. But it's not just that they're
[33:22] alive to resent you. It's just are they
[33:25] able to navigate and negotiate the
[33:28] demands of life when you're not around
[33:30] cuz you're not going to always be there.
[33:32] >> No. And and there's there's so many
[33:34] support groups out there. There's other
[33:36] parents that do this. There's other
[33:39] communities that do this. It's not like
[33:42] they have to be under my my thumb every
[33:44] single minute.
[33:46] >> Are you overprotective?
[33:48] >> Yes, I am.
[33:49] >> Okay. And do you think that that does
[33:51] have backlash?
[33:52] >> Oh, yes.
[33:53] To school or not to school, the debate
[33:55] continues.
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[35:06] What can we expect from you guys?
[35:13] >> Start a holiday tradition of your own.
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[36:07] Angry shoppers at a local electronic
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[36:14] they unleashed their anger. You'll hear
[36:16] more accusations against Seinfeld star
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[36:22] he was heckled at a show earlier this
[36:24] year. And how's the weather shaping up
[36:26] for the weekend? We'll have that
[36:27] forecast you need as folks head back
[36:28] home. Coin News 6 coming your way this
[36:30] afternoon at 5:00. We'll see you then.
[36:36] >> To purchase tapes or transcripts of your
[36:37] favorite Dr. Phil show. Call 8664 Dr.
[36:40] Phil.
[36:48] >> Now Deianne, you're Deian. Where do you
[36:52] come down on this?
[36:53] >> We're unschoolers and these are my three
[36:56] children and if you ask them, I think
[36:58] they're very happy with their lives.
[36:59] They actually have been in school and we
[37:01] took them out
[37:03] >> um for several reasons. But I have to
[37:06] tell you that I guess I would have to
[37:08] give you a few examples of of how
[37:10] learning occurs. But it's truly amazing.
[37:13] >> Why is your you Hi.
[37:15] >> Is this your six-year-old?
[37:16] >> Yes.
[37:17] >> Okay. Did she decide to come today?
[37:20] >> Yes. She wanted to be with us.
[37:22] >> Okay. And And you thought that was
[37:25] appropriate?
[37:26] >> I did. Yes.
[37:27] >> So, am I your teacher today?
[37:31] >> Your teacher today?
[37:32] >> Forget about her. She can get away with
[37:33] anything with that face. She's as cute
[37:36] as they come. She'll never have any
[37:38] problems. Uh but are are you concerned
[37:40] about any of the things you've heard
[37:42] here today about unschooling? And then
[37:43] you say you're not an unschooler, you're
[37:45] a homeschooler. And that's different.
[37:47] >> From what I'm understanding, I mean, I
[37:48] do believe in structure. And
[37:50] >> Okay. And you think no, you think
[37:52] >> I would say the difference between
[37:53] unschooling and homeschooling is that
[37:55] unschooling, we're using the world as
[37:58] our classroom rather than our dining
[38:00] room table. We are out and about. My
[38:02] children, we have a geography club. They
[38:04] have a book group that they meet at the
[38:06] local bookstore once a month. They have
[38:07] a park day every Tuesday. They are
[38:09] involved in destination imagination team
[38:12] competitions that other schools
[38:13] participate in and they actually compete
[38:15] against schooled kids. They take music
[38:17] lessons. They have a teen jam session at
[38:20] our home. I open it up our garage. It's
[38:22] sort of like School of Rock. If you guys
[38:24] have seen that movie in Jack Black, we
[38:27] do that.
[38:27] >> Yeah, but that was a movie. Um
[38:29] >> it's real life in our house.
[38:31] >> And they didn't have to take SATs. If if
[38:33] these guys have to take SATs to get into
[38:36] a university, how will they do?
[38:38] >> I have no doubt that they will do
[38:40] awesome. There have been many unschooled
[38:41] kids that have never taken a test before
[38:44] and gone and taken the SAT and done
[38:46] quite well.
[38:48] >> That's kind of a matter of the
[38:49] difference between parents, right?
[38:51] >> Probably act. You really do have to be
[38:54] um expose your kids to a lot of things.
[38:56] For example, my kids, they love to read.
[38:59] Um Casey reads just several hours a day
[39:02] and he loves to read books about history
[39:04] and so he asks him anything about
[39:06] history. It's pretty darn amazing. They
[39:08] just got home from a huge trip with
[39:10] their grandparents. Every year my mom
[39:12] and dad take them on a trip around the
[39:13] United States and the goal is to get
[39:15] them to all 50 states. They've now been
[39:17] to 43. They just returned. They went to
[39:19] Niagara Falls and drove all the way
[39:21] through New England states, uh
[39:23] Massachusetts.
[39:24] >> Okay. I I got it. So you you're giving
[39:26] them a rich environment and you're a
[39:27] history. So, you're a history buff?
[39:30] >> You're the history buff?
[39:31] >> Yeah.
[39:31] >> Okay. Who was the mayor of Istanbul in
[39:33] 1954?
[39:37] >> I don't know either.
[39:39] >> I have no idea. All right. Next, a
[39:42] 26-year-old woman who says homeschooling
[39:44] made her socially Her story
[39:48] when we come back.
[39:58] I was homeschooled from the second grade
[39:59] through all of high school and it messed
[40:01] me up for a long time. I believe that
[40:03] homeschooling can have devastating
[40:05] effects on children. I am now 26 years
[40:08] old and I feel like an outcast.
[40:10] Homeschooling has made me feel socially
[40:12] I want parents to listen to
[40:14] people like me who have been through it
[40:16] and hated it.
[40:19] >> Dr. bill.com. Brought to you in part by
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[43:16] >> Monday in the Dr. Phil House. The twins
[43:19] on heroin.
[43:19] >> You're 6 months pregnant and you take a
[43:22] hit of heroin.
[43:23] >> The intervention goes full force.
[43:25] >> Somehow somewhere I'm going to get you
[43:27] off a drug.
[43:28] >> The withdrawals
[43:29] >> that I can't get off.
[43:31] >> And the reality.
[43:32] >> That is one skanky looking cocore. Then
[43:36] on Tuesday, millions tuned in for
[43:38] Kayle's story.
[43:40] >> They judge my baby.
[43:42] >> Now, her father, the man accused of
[43:44] molesting her, is back. Jeremy returns.
[43:47] >> Did you sleep with a 12-year-old girl?
[43:49] >> Hell no. WHAT ARE YOU DOING?
[43:51] >> WHAT ARE YOU DOING?
[43:52] >> And on Wednesday,
[43:53] >> get him off the show right now.
[43:55] >> You saw him storm off the stage. Now,
[43:57] this shameless cheater's back in Dr.
[43:59] Phil's face.
[44:00] >> Drop the bomb, Doc. I don't want some
[44:02] middle-aged balding white guy to tell me
[44:04] >> is enough. Coming all next week.
[44:06] >> You need somebody that throw the bull
[44:08] flag.
[44:08] >> Only on Dr. Phil.
[44:10] >> You're saying outrageous stuff. You
[44:12] don't want to miss a single show.
[44:24] Well, today it's the great school debate
[44:26] and I'm really interested in knowing
[44:27] from the audience how many of you just
[44:29] by a show of hands think that
[44:31] homeschooling is a legitimate
[44:34] alternative? Raise your hand. Well,
[44:36] that's maybe a third. How many of you
[44:39] think unschooling
[44:41] where the I don't know how you'd best
[44:44] differentiate it from homeschooling less
[44:46] structure and the kids learn what
[44:48] they're ready to learn?
[44:49] >> Childirect learning.
[44:50] >> Child-directed learning. How many of you
[44:51] think that's a viable alternative?
[44:54] Okay, that's maybe 5%. All right. How
[44:58] many of you think that the public
[45:00] schools or the traditional schools while
[45:03] not perfect is the most viable
[45:05] alternative?
[45:07] Okay, that's most everybody. Okay, and
[45:09] we all agree that it's not perfect.
[45:11] Well, my next guest, Nicole, says that
[45:13] she hated being homeschooled. She says
[45:15] that she lacked a social life and
[45:17] couldn't relate to other kids. And at
[45:19] the age of 26, she still feels like an
[45:22] outcast.
[45:23] >> Dear Dr. Phil, my name is Nicole. I was
[45:26] homeschooled from the second grade
[45:27] through all of high school, and it
[45:29] messed me up for a long time. I believe
[45:31] that homeschooling can have devastating
[45:33] effects on children.
[45:35] Parents have no idea how missing out on
[45:37] the public or private school experience
[45:39] can cause psychological and sociological
[45:41] damage. There is something about high
[45:43] school that validates you and gives you
[45:45] your right of passage into the real
[45:47] world. I am now 26 years old and I
[45:50] constantly hear stories from friends
[45:51] about proms, football games,
[45:53] cheerleading squads, and more. I always
[45:55] feel like an outcast because I can never
[45:57] relate. Homeschooling has made me feel
[46:00] socially because I lived in a
[46:02] completely different world from everyone
[46:04] else. Even to this day, I think about
[46:07] going to college, but I still need to
[46:09] overcome my fear of stepping into a
[46:10] classroom. I want parents to think about
[46:12] the consequences of such a choice and
[46:14] not make a rash decision. And I wish
[46:17] they would listen to people like me who
[46:18] have been through it and hated it.
[46:23] Did your parents make the efforts that
[46:26] this homeschooler and these unschoolers
[46:29] have described in terms of getting you
[46:32] exposed to others at like the 4 and
[46:37] community activities and
[46:39] >> well I did have a um part-time job and I
[46:43] did have as a teenager and I was very
[46:46] involved in my church so there was some
[46:49] social things involved. What did you
[46:51] miss most in looking back?
[46:54] >> What I missed most was just um the
[46:57] opportunity to learn to learn with other
[46:59] kids to maybe hate that one girl with
[47:02] the purple hair who thought she was all
[47:03] bad or or or maybe just to you know try
[47:07] out for a cheerleading squad or or to
[47:09] have the opportunity to grasp for
[47:12] something more than I am now so I could
[47:14] become more than so I could just become
[47:17] more. And um also the be the ability to
[47:20] learn how to negotiate with other
[47:22] people. Um because it's it's easy to get
[47:25] kids involved with things that they like
[47:28] like um if your kids like acting, it's
[47:32] easy to get them involved in say
[47:34] community theater where they can
[47:35] interact with other kids who like the
[47:37] same thing. That's easy to do. But what
[47:38] about the other kids who don't have the
[47:40] same interest? Where do you find that
[47:42] bridge? How do you find common ground
[47:44] and connect with them? So, what do you
[47:46] think these guys are missing?
[47:48] >> Um, I don't even know where to start.
[47:51] Um, I do think that they're they're
[47:53] missing a very wide social aspect. I do
[47:56] believe that they're missing the ability
[47:58] to choose um on their own who their
[48:02] friends are, who their friends maybe
[48:04] won't be, how to have acquaintances,
[48:07] not so much have a I I
[48:10] >> there is a process. I mean, there there
[48:12] is a process to the school situation.
[48:15] that that you wouldn't know otherwise.
[48:17] Uh Rick, you're with California
[48:19] Department of Education and you think
[48:22] that traditional is the best way to go.
[48:24] What do you think's the key element
[48:26] besides just the academics that's
[48:28] offered through the school system?
[48:29] >> Well, I would say general, I do think
[48:30] it's the best choice, but I think it's
[48:32] important that parents find what's best
[48:33] for their kids. And what's important to
[48:35] note, unlike when I went to school or
[48:37] when our parents went to school, there's
[48:38] a lot of choice now in the public
[48:40] education systems. There's charter
[48:41] schools, there's magnet schools, and so
[48:43] there's a way for parents to find what's
[48:44] best for their child and do it within
[48:46] the public public school system, which
[48:48] has a lot of rich advantages.
[48:50] >> Yeah. So, it it's not an all or none if
[48:52] you do go the traditional
[48:54] >> the traditional route.
[48:56] >> Will you ever put your children in
[48:58] school and let them decide if it feels
[48:59] right for them?
[49:00] >> If they choose to.
[49:02] >> All right, we'll be right back.
[49:13] Friday, it's Ellen's last day in New
[49:15] York.
[49:15] >> I will be your doses. Let's go.
[49:17] >> We'll start the bidding.
[49:18] >> T-shirt. New York t-shirt.
[49:19] >> 75
[49:20] >> with Matt Lowau and Meredith Vieiraa.
[49:22] Ellen in New York.
[49:24] >> Watch today at 4 right after Dr. Phil
[49:26] only on Coin 6.
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[50:43] >> Ho ho ho.
[50:44] >> This Thanksgiving weekend when you're
[50:46] choosing a family movie to see,
[50:49] >> go with your gut and see the funniest
[50:52] movie of the holidays.
[50:53] >> That's what I'm talking about. Santa
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[50:58] >> So, do you have friends in New York?
[51:00] >> Yeah.
[51:01] >> What phone service do you use?
[51:03] >> Um, Comcast definitely. I get unlimited
[51:06] calling in the US and Canada. All my
[51:08] favorite calling features.
[51:09] >> Voicemail notifies me online.
[51:11] >> It works on the phones I already have.
[51:12] >> I got to keep my phone number
[51:14] >> and we only pay $33 a month for the
[51:16] whole year. Oh, I can call Canada as
[51:19] much as I want.
[51:19] >> Can you say Comcastic and Canadian?
[51:22] It's Comcastic.
[51:24] A
[51:29] >> Marsha Brady's eating disorder.
[51:31] >> Monday on ET.
[51:34] >> Do you want to be a part of Dr. Phil's
[51:36] live studio audience? Call us at 323461
[51:40] Philill or email us at drill.com for
[51:43] free tickets.
[51:45] >> The education of our children is
[51:46] obviously a serious subject. After all,
[51:49] they are the future of our world. So
[51:51] what is the best way to educate them?
[51:54] Whether it's homeschool, traditional
[51:55] school, or unschool, you have to select
[51:58] the form of education that best suits
[52:00] your children. And Rick, as you were
[52:03] just saying, there are options within
[52:05] the traditional school system. And in
[52:07] fact, the research seems to indicate
[52:10] that up to the middle school uh level
[52:14] that there seems to be no disadvantage
[52:16] to homeschooling your children. Uh but
[52:19] once they hit that point where they
[52:21] become very socially aware and socially
[52:23] sensitized, then some children like you
[52:26] can have an experience where they feel
[52:28] like they've actually missed something
[52:30] despite the parents efforts to socialize
[52:33] them through activities in the
[52:35] community.
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