PBS NewsHour - 1996-02-21
Channel: malgent
Transcript
Language: English (original, YouTube automatic captions)
[0:06] Good evening, I'm Jim Lara. On the
[0:08] NewsHour tonight, the post New Hampshire
[0:10] fight for the soul of the Republican
[0:12] party as seen by four Republican
[0:15] activists. Analysis of that, another New
[0:17] Hampshire results by Mark Shields and
[0:19] Paul Ziggo. A newsmaker interview with
[0:22] outgoing State Department official
[0:23] Richard Hullbrook. And essayist Phyllis
[0:26] Thorough explains the secret of a good
[0:28] family. It all follows our summary of
[0:30] the news this Wednesday. Major funding
[0:33] for the NewsHour with Jim Ler has been
[0:35] provided by the Archer Daniels Midland
[0:37] Company, ADM, Supermarket to the World,
[0:42] and by New York Life, yet another
[0:45] example of New York Life's wise
[0:47] investment philosophy,
[0:51] and by the Corporation for Public
[0:53] Broadcasting, and by the annual
[0:55] financial support from viewers like you.
[0:58] The Republican presidential race moved
[1:00] on from New Hampshire today. Yesterday's
[1:03] winner, Pat Buchanan, was in South
[1:05] Carolina this morning. He said one
[1:07] reason he finished first in New
[1:08] Hampshire was his strong anti-abortion
[1:11] stance.
[1:13] >> I think we have a fighting chance to win
[1:15] South Carolina for several reasons. We
[1:17] are with South Carolina on all of the
[1:19] great issues of the South Carolina
[1:22] Republican Party. The issue of right to
[1:25] life. There is no stronger right to life
[1:29] candidate who is left running in the
[1:31] Republican party than Pat Buchanan.
[1:33] Indeed, I am the only right to life
[1:36] candidate who is committed to keeping
[1:39] the right to life blank in the platform
[1:41] to picking a pro-life running mate to
[1:44] appointing justices who will overturn
[1:46] Roie Wade.
[1:48] >> Senator Bob Dole finished second last
[1:50] night in Fargo, North Dakota today. He
[1:52] told supporters he's going to fight
[1:54] hard. He said a Buchanan candidacy would
[1:57] polarize the Republican party.
[2:00] >> Right now, it's down to two people,
[2:03] myself and Pat Buchanan.
[2:06] And I'm not here to criticize anybody.
[2:07] I'm just here to give you the challenge
[2:10] because it is a fight for the heart and
[2:13] soul of the Republican party. It is a
[2:16] fight for mainstream conservatism versus
[2:18] extremism. It is a fight for mainstream
[2:21] conservatism. And I've been a mainstream
[2:23] conservative all my life. As a Fargo
[2:26] forum said today,
[2:28] >> Lamar Alexander, who came in third last
[2:30] night in New Hampshire, urged Dole to
[2:32] retire from the race and let him fight
[2:34] Buchanan one- on-one. The next primary
[2:37] is in Delaware Saturday. Then it's on to
[2:39] the Arizona, South Dakota, and North
[2:41] Dakota primaries next Tuesday. President
[2:45] Clinton said today he was pleased with
[2:46] his 95% vote in the Democratic side to
[2:49] the New Hampshire primary, but he would
[2:51] not comment on the Republican results.
[2:53] He spoke at a White House photo
[2:55] opportunity with the president of
[2:57] Ukraine.
[2:59] >> I regard this whole process as one for
[3:00] the Republicans to work out. I'm I'm
[3:03] going to be president and go out there
[3:06] and tell the people what I'm trying to
[3:08] do and what I would do if given them a
[3:11] greater opportunity to do it. and I'm
[3:13] not going to get involved in their
[3:14] business or yours.
[3:16] >> We'll have much more on the New
[3:17] Hampshire primary results right after
[3:19] this new summary. In the Whitewater
[3:21] investigation, two Arkansas bankers were
[3:24] indicted for bank fraud late yesterday.
[3:26] They allegedly helped then Governor
[3:28] Clinton pay off campaign debts in 1990.
[3:30] The indictment was obtained by
[3:32] Whitewater prosecutor Kenneth Star from
[3:34] a federal grand jury. Herby Bransk Jr.
[3:37] and Robert Hill are accused of using
[3:39] bank funds to reimburse donors for
[3:41] contributions they made to the Clinton
[3:43] campaign. The man who brokered the
[3:45] Bosnian Peace Accord left the State
[3:47] Department today. Assistant Secretary of
[3:49] State Richard Hullbrook will join a New
[3:51] York investment bank tomorrow as vice
[3:53] chairman. He spoke today at a State
[3:55] Department briefing about the importance
[3:57] of peace in Bosnia.
[3:59] >> Bosnia is the ballgame for United States
[4:03] policy in Europe in this year. We have
[4:06] staked a great deal on success in
[4:08] Bosnia. Failure is unthinkable. I know
[4:11] you're going to ask me about the
[4:12] difficulties we're encountering the last
[4:14] few days and we can discuss those. But I
[4:16] want to be clear that none of you in
[4:18] this room and me as well would have
[4:21] believed a few months ago that Sarah Evo
[4:24] would be opening up. People are reaching
[4:26] across the boundary lines. Elizabeth
[4:29] Farnsworth will interview Secretary
[4:30] Hullbrook later in the program. In
[4:33] Britain today, an oil tanker grounded
[4:35] off the western coast of Wales has now
[4:37] spilled 19 million gallons of oil.
[4:40] That's 8 million more than the 1989
[4:42] Exxon Vald spill in Alaska. The accident
[4:46] occurred near one of Britain's leading
[4:48] wildlife sanctuaries. We have more in
[4:50] this report from James Bay of
[4:52] Independent Television News.
[4:55] All day, Dakotas have again been flying
[4:57] sorties. But despite the aerial spraying
[5:00] operation, numerous slicks now arc
[5:02] around the West Wales Peninsula. As
[5:05] experts prepare another attempt to move
[5:07] the Sea Empress, which has now lost half
[5:09] its cargo, serious questions are being
[5:12] asked about the way the salvage
[5:14] operation has been directed.
[5:16] >> The operation hasn't gone according to
[5:18] plan. We've been faced with very severe
[5:20] weather conditions uh indeed very strong
[5:23] tides and you simply I agree that it's
[5:25] frustrating but you simply cannot just
[5:27] say oh she must be got off. We're all
[5:29] trying extremely hard to get her off.
[5:32] >> Environmentalists are getting
[5:33] increasingly exasperated.
[5:35] >> Frankly, this whole effort has been what
[5:36] you'd expect from a third world country.
[5:38] It's a little short of a of a national
[5:40] disgrace. I I feel embarrassed to be
[5:41] British.
[5:43] >> This oiled seabird was taken to a bird
[5:45] clinic shortly after these pictures were
[5:47] taken. Environmentalists fear, however,
[5:50] that thousands of others are already
[5:52] dead or dying.
[5:54] >> Tugboats did dislodge the tanker from
[5:56] the rocks this evening. They are pushing
[5:58] it away from the coast so the remaining
[6:01] oil can be pumped into another vessel.
[6:04] In Colorado today, a freight train
[6:06] derailed, killing two crew members. The
[6:08] accident ruptured tank cars, spilling
[6:11] sulfuric acid in a mountain pass between
[6:13] Leadville and Vale. It was the fifth
[6:15] major train accident in the United
[6:17] States this month. Composer Morton Gould
[6:21] died today in Florida. He was the master
[6:23] of weaving American themes into
[6:25] symphonic works. He won the Pulitzer
[6:27] Prize in 1995 for his composition,
[6:30] String Music. Gould was a child prodigy
[6:32] whose first music was published at the
[6:34] age of six. The cause of his death was
[6:37] not immediately announced. He was 82
[6:39] years old. And that's it for the news
[6:41] summary tonight. Now it's on to
[6:43] Republicans looking at their post New
[6:45] Hampshire prospects. Shields and you go,
[6:48] a farewell interview with Richard
[6:50] Hullbrook and a Phyllis Theorough essay.
[7:02] The fallout from New Hampshire is first
[7:04] tonight. For the candidates, it was on
[7:05] to the next primary stops along the
[7:07] nomination road.Wami Holman reports. Pat
[7:11] Buchanan didn't waste any time leaving
[7:13] New Hampshire last night after his
[7:15] primary victory. Sporting a wide grin,
[7:17] he held up the first edition of
[7:19] Wednesday's New Hampshire Union Leader,
[7:21] then turned and boarded his jet for a
[7:24] late night flight to South Carolina,
[7:26] site of the March 2nd primary.
[7:30] This morning, Buchanan held a brief news
[7:32] conference in Colombia and reiterated
[7:34] his commitment to what he called right
[7:36] to life issues.
[7:38] Neither Senator Dole nor Lamar Alexander
[7:40] has made such commitments. And that's
[7:43] why it is imperative that the right to
[7:45] life movement, unite now. United we win.
[7:50] Divided we cannot.
[7:52] >> This afternoon, Buchanan traveled on to
[7:54] North and South Dakota. Both states hold
[7:57] primaries next week.
[7:59] >> You heard that new that movie Sleepless
[8:01] in Seattle?
[8:03] I got a NEW ONE CALLED CLUELESS IN
[8:05] WASHINGTON.
[8:10] THAT WHOLE ESTABLISHMENT UP THERE. THEY
[8:12] DON'T KNOW WHAT'S GOING ON OUT IN
[8:13] AMERICA.
[8:14] >> NEW Hampshire's second place finisher,
[8:16] Senator Bob Dole, wife Elizabeth, and
[8:18] his top campaign aids left the state in
[8:21] a driving rainstorm this afternoon. Dole
[8:24] also planned campaign stops in North
[8:26] Dakota, South Dakota, and Colorado. But
[8:29] before leaving New Hampshire today, Dole
[8:31] held one more news conference and talked
[8:33] about his narrow loss to Pat Buchanan. I
[8:36] never have given up easily in my life
[8:40] and I'm not going to give up. Obviously,
[8:42] now this is a little bump in the road,
[8:43] but not a very big bump. I keep counting
[8:45] those figures. Now, we're fractionating
[8:46] them. It looks a little better to put
[8:48] fractions in there. So, we're doing a
[8:50] lot of things to make it look like a
[8:51] dead heat.
[8:54] And I think the time I get to North
[8:56] Dakota will be a dead heat.
[8:57] >> Dole was asked what kind of effect
[9:00] Buchanan's rise in popularity would have
[9:02] on the Republican party. Well, you know,
[9:05] if I if I thought this was any
[9:06] indication he'd be the nominee, I'd be a
[9:08] little worried. But this is not. I mean,
[9:11] if if this was the fact that he won by a
[9:13] narrow margin in New Hampshire, the
[9:16] second real state in the process with 26
[9:20] to go in the next 30 days, I'd be
[9:22] nervous. Now, if we're back here on the
[9:24] 5th of March and we're holding a press
[9:26] conference, say in Boston, and he swept
[9:28] New England and won all the others, then
[9:30] I'll I'll be a little concerned. But
[9:32] this is just one one stop on the way.
[9:36] One stop on the way. He's gonna make his
[9:39] case and he made it here barely. We'll
[9:43] see if he makes it in Dotas
[9:46] and uh but I I want to leave this in a
[9:49] very positive. He won. Congratulations
[9:51] Pat. We'll see you at the next event.
[9:54] There 26 of them this year. And if you
[9:56] win all those
[9:59] uh I'll call you up.
[10:03] As for Lamar Alexander, the third place
[10:05] finisher in New Hampshire, he's short on
[10:07] money as he continues his campaign. But
[10:10] his problem this morning was the
[10:12] weather. Rain and fog delayed his flight
[10:14] out of New Hampshire, forcing him to
[10:16] scrap plans for an afternoon rally in
[10:18] Marietta, Georgia. The former Tennessee
[10:20] governor eventually was able to fly out
[10:23] in time to attend a rally this evening
[10:25] in South Carolina. My goal has always
[10:28] been that as we came out of the New
[10:29] Hampshire primary, I would have a chance
[10:32] to be one of those who has a ch have a
[10:35] chance to be one of those on the stage
[10:36] and the one of those who would be most
[10:40] likely to unite our party and to beat
[10:43] Bill Clinton. Pat Buchanan won the New
[10:46] Hampshire primary. Give him credit for
[10:49] that. Bob Dole lost it. But I believe
[10:52] that coming out of yesterday, I'm the
[10:55] real long-term winner with the best
[10:58] chance to unite the Republican party,
[11:00] defeat Buchananism, and beat Bill
[11:03] Clinton. Thank you.
[11:05] >> Now, four perspectives on what the New
[11:07] Hampshire results mean for the
[11:08] Republican party. Ben Weber is
[11:10] co-chairman of the Dole campaign and
[11:12] vice chairman of Empower America. Gary
[11:15] Bower, who served in the Reagan
[11:16] administration, is head of the Family
[11:18] Research Council and American Renewal.
[11:21] Senator Fred Thompson of Tennessee is an
[11:23] Alexander supporter. He'll be joining us
[11:24] in a few minutes. And Stone is the
[11:27] chairman of Republicans for Choice. Gary
[11:30] Bower, Senator Dole said today the race
[11:32] now was between mainstream conservatism
[11:35] and extremism. Do you agree? I
[11:37] >> I don't. And I I hope the senator who is
[11:39] a good man will avoid that kind of
[11:41] rhetoric. There there admittedly
[11:42] differences between these candidates and
[11:44] they ought to debate them. But I think
[11:46] that uh if you're concerned about
[11:48] immigration, if you're concerned about
[11:50] the sanctity of human life, as millions
[11:52] of Americans are, if you believe that
[11:54] the lower middle class and workingclass
[11:56] Americans have a legitimate right to be
[11:58] anxious about their jobs and the
[12:00] economic future, those are mainstream
[12:03] issues. And I think the reason that uh
[12:05] Pat Buchanan has done better than
[12:07] expected so far is that he's touched
[12:09] some nerves in those areas. And my
[12:11] party, I believe, really needs to listen
[12:12] carefully to the themes that he's
[12:14] sounding.
[12:15] >> And Weber, why then does Senator Doe
[12:18] call Pat Buchanan and those views
[12:20] extremism?
[12:21] >> Well, first of all, let me say I I want
[12:22] to say I agree with Gary. It's not
[12:24] helpful to have that rhetoric in the
[12:25] campaign going in any direction. But I
[12:27] also want to make a very important
[12:28] distinction. Senator Dole and others
[12:30] that refer to Papuchan as an extremist,
[12:32] but particularly Senator Dole, are
[12:34] probably not referring to the issues
[12:35] that Gary is most concerned about.
[12:37] They're probably referring to foreign
[12:38] policy positions that can really be
[12:40] interpreted by most Americans as
[12:41] extreme. And I think that's quite
[12:43] different.
[12:44] >> Give us an example.
[12:45] >> Well, because we saw in some of the
[12:46] Sunday talk shows last Sunday, the
[12:48] suggestion in the past Buchanan column
[12:50] that we should allow the Asian tigers,
[12:52] as you will Taiwan and Japan and South
[12:54] Korea, to to develop nuclear weapons.
[12:57] That may be something that should be
[12:59] debated. Probably not in the midst of a
[13:00] presidential campaign. I think that his
[13:02] trade position can well be described as
[13:04] extreme. certainly is at odds with the
[13:06] trade position of the Republican party
[13:07] since World War II and of every
[13:09] Republican president since then and
[13:10] extremely so. So that's you know whether
[13:14] I don't like charged rhetoric, but it is
[13:17] fair to take on positions that fly in
[13:19] the face of Republican policy in the
[13:21] entire postw World War II era and that
[13:23] reflect on our position of leadership in
[13:25] the world in a very fundamental way and
[13:27] draw attention to them.
[13:28] >> You have a problem with that, Gary Bar?
[13:30] Well, there's some interesting points
[13:31] there, but uh look, Ronald Reagan uh
[13:34] protected Harley-Davidson when it was
[13:36] getting ready to go out of business. Uh
[13:38] uh the Chrysler bailout, a lot of
[13:39] conservatives, uh opposed it at the
[13:41] time, but Chrysler is alive and well
[13:43] today. I think what Buchanan is trying
[13:45] to say here is that American workers in
[13:47] some case fa face unfair competition and
[13:51] it's a legitimate thing for the
[13:52] Republican party to signal that they
[13:55] understand the anxiety in the kind of
[13:57] communities where I grew up in the
[13:58] Midwest where heavy industry has shut
[14:01] down and a lot of people are feeling
[14:02] that their children won't have the same
[14:05] chances they do now. We need lower
[14:06] taxes. We need smaller government, which
[14:09] are Republican positions we all agree
[14:10] on. But I think Buchanan on that issue
[14:12] is hitting a nerve as well as he is on
[14:16] the family issues, which I think my
[14:18] party has been a little too cavalier
[14:19] about. A lot of rhetoric, but not much
[14:22] action.
[14:23] >> And Stone, where do you come down on
[14:24] this extremism versus mainstream
[14:27] conservatism?
[14:28] >> Well, I've known Pat for 25 years and
[14:30] and he's a pugilist. He's a pug
[14:33] pugilistic candidate. I mean, he's a
[14:35] he's a fighter,
[14:35] >> extreme pugilist.
[14:36] >> He's an extreme pugilist. And he'd tell
[14:38] you his pugilism and his youth got him
[14:40] in a lot of trouble. And people love a
[14:42] good fighter. They love a guy that's out
[14:43] there willing to to, you know, fight the
[14:45] good fight. But the problem is that kind
[14:47] of person can't always govern. And we
[14:49] really have to get real about, you know,
[14:51] what would Pat Buchanan be able to do as
[14:53] president? I think he'd be totally
[14:54] isolated. He wouldn't have the Congress
[14:56] working with him, even if they were
[14:57] Republican controlled. And we have to
[14:59] worry about, you know, where he could
[15:01] really take the country. He is not
[15:03] Ronald Reagan. He is he is much more um
[15:06] antagonistic than Reagan ever was.
[15:08] Reagan was always able to build bridges
[15:10] and Pat seems very content to burn them
[15:12] down. So he also um says, you know, that
[15:15] he isn't for broadening the party. He is
[15:17] for keeping the people that agree with
[15:19] him in the party and his problem long
[15:21] term is going to be simple math and that
[15:23] is his part of the party can't elect him
[15:26] and can't elect other Republicans. Gary
[15:28] Bow, do you do you that has been said
[15:30] many times in the last 24 hours and many
[15:33] times before the last 24 hours that that
[15:36] Pat Buchanan had there's a ceiling to
[15:38] his support and he's not interested in
[15:39] bringing in any new people. He's not
[15:41] interested in bringing in anybody who
[15:42] doesn't agree with him.
[15:43] >> Well, I've got this quaint little view
[15:44] that the American people ought to decide
[15:46] whether somebody's electable or not. I I
[15:48] think this is an interesting coalition
[15:50] that he could put together. That is
[15:52] bluecollar workers, Perau voters,
[15:54] northeastern Catholics, evangelicals. I
[15:57] think I think the jury's out. I I would
[15:58] also caution my Republican friends that
[16:01] this same rhetoric that's being used
[16:03] against Pat Buchanan was used against
[16:05] Ronald Reagan in 1976. He was called too
[16:07] extreme. Everybody in the party wanted
[16:09] him to get out of the race when he
[16:11] challenged Gerald uh when he when he
[16:13] challenged Gerald Ford. Uh this rhetoric
[16:15] has always been applied to conservatives
[16:17] and I think my party makes a mistake if
[16:19] it starts turning it on each other.
[16:21] Gary, the only point I'll Reagan held
[16:23] exactly that coalition together and he
[16:26] also reached out and kept together
[16:28] moderate Republicans and moderate
[16:29] independent voters and really worked
[16:31] both rhetorically and substantively to
[16:33] hold that all together. The difference
[16:34] the difference with Pat seems to be that
[16:36] he is alienating several segments of the
[16:39] he's trying to pretend that there was no
[16:40] such thing as a moderate Republican in
[16:42] our coalition. I'm a conservative
[16:44] Republican, but we wouldn't win
[16:45] elections without
[16:46] >> moderate. He's won three out of four so
[16:49] far. So, it's not not a bad approach.
[16:51] >> Let's bring Senator Thompson into this.
[16:52] Senator, welcome. You just got off an
[16:54] airplane. Appreciate you joining us.
[16:56] >> Being a little informal tonight.
[16:57] >> Well, it's quite all right. It's quite
[16:58] all right. The issue here on the table
[17:00] is is Pat Buchanan too extreme to get
[17:04] the Republican nomination and to
[17:05] represent the entire Republican party
[17:07] against Bill Clinton.
[17:08] >> Well, I'm not going to call anybody
[17:09] names, but I don't think Pat can get the
[17:11] nomination. And uh I would uh think he
[17:14] would have a hard time getting elected.
[17:16] And I think a lot of people uh a lot of
[17:18] people in the party feel that way. And I
[17:20] think for that reason, it's going to be
[17:22] a twoman race from here on out.
[17:24] >> Well, now your your man, you you support
[17:26] Lamar Alexander. That's right. Now, he
[17:28] has said that Ben Weber's man, Bob Dole,
[17:31] should step aside and uh and let him
[17:34] take Buchanan on oneonone. Does he
[17:36] expect that to happen?
[17:38] >> I doubt it.
[17:40] honest.
[17:43] >> All right.
[17:43] >> I can't believe,
[17:45] >> but we both agree it should be a twoman
[17:47] race.
[17:48] >> You should wear turtlenecks more often.
[17:51] >> That's a that's a good expectation. You
[17:53] would agree, Mr. Weber, that is not Bob
[17:56] Dole. Bob do I think he's trying I think
[17:58] he's trying to to make the point that
[18:00] that he's been making for some time and
[18:02] that is that uh that he's more electable
[18:05] than Bob Dole that uh that he is the one
[18:08] that ought to take the challenges
[18:09] against Buchanan. Buchanan's the other
[18:12] uh the other uh side of the coin you
[18:15] might say right now and he's the person
[18:16] to take that on that uh that he has new
[18:19] ideas and and Dole does not and and
[18:21] that's his but that's a part of his
[18:22] overall position although I'm I doubt if
[18:24] you expect Dole to get out of the race
[18:26] >> right Gary Bower is you represent I
[18:29] would say you represent all of them but
[18:31] you represent uh the uh the social
[18:33] conservative uh part of the of the
[18:36] Republican party is is your the the
[18:39] folks who think like you are you more
[18:41] interested in in a candidate who
[18:43] represents your views or in electing
[18:46] somebody uh in November against Bill
[18:49] Clinton? Where are your priorities at
[18:50] this stage of the game?
[18:51] >> Right. Well, I I I want both and don't
[18:54] believe those are mutually exclusive
[18:55] things. I I think Ronald Reagan won two
[18:58] landslides, three if you count George
[19:00] Bush's landslide after after Ronald
[19:03] Reagan was gone. one because Ronald
[19:06] Reagan signal to the American people
[19:07] that he understood not only the budget
[19:09] deficit but the virtue deficit what's
[19:11] happening to the heart and soul of the
[19:13] country and he sent signals on the right
[19:15] to life issue on a host of other things
[19:17] he identified with blueco collar workers
[19:19] that's what made him electable and that
[19:21] is the future I believe for my party
[19:24] >> so where is the soul what is the soul of
[19:26] the republican party an is there such a
[19:28] thing
[19:28] >> well the mainstream of the party all the
[19:30] surveys show are basically very fiscal
[19:32] and defense conservative But on social
[19:34] issues, uh more moderated um all agree
[19:38] with Gary B.
[19:39] >> They don't all agree. A lot of them do.
[19:40] A lot of them do agree with certain
[19:42] aspects of what uh Gary's group stands
[19:44] for. And that's uh there are there is a
[19:46] lot more common ground than people
[19:48] understand, but Pat Buchanan is
[19:50] definitely not the mainstream of the
[19:51] party. And for that reason, he won't get
[19:54] the nomination. And for that reason, he
[19:55] definitely would not be electable.
[19:57] >> Do you do you agree, Vin Weber? Do you
[19:59] agree with that flat statement that she
[20:01] that Pat Buchanan will not be nominated
[20:04] by the Republican party? That's just
[20:06] impossible politically.
[20:07] >> I don't think he's going to be nominated
[20:08] by the Republican party. I mean,
[20:09] impossible. Strange things happen. I
[20:11] never thought as a young man I'd ever
[20:13] see a president of the United States
[20:14] resign either. I don't think Pat
[20:16] Buchanan is going to get nominated by
[20:17] the Republican party. I don't I
[20:18] certainly don't think he could get
[20:19] elected president, but you have to give
[20:21] him his due. Gary points out he's won a
[20:23] couple of elections, albeit with numbers
[20:24] in the 20s. That doesn't actually do it
[20:26] on election day against a single
[20:28] opponent. November, but he's done okay.
[20:30] But no, I don't think he's going to get
[20:31] nominated. The question is how soon in
[20:33] my judgment can Senator Dole wrap up the
[20:36] nomination because the earlier he does
[20:38] that, the better our chances of
[20:39] defeating Bill Clinton.
[20:40] >> Senator Thompson, let me ask you to play
[20:42] a whole another role here for a moment
[20:44] and that's kind of a reporter on
[20:45] Tennessee Republicans.
[20:48] Understanding uh uh your your partiality
[20:51] toward Alexander, etc., what kind of
[20:54] chords does Pat Buchanan's message
[20:56] strike in Tennessee? Well, I I think
[20:58] it's a point that needs to be made and
[21:00] that is uh I I believe what I said about
[21:03] his electability, but uh I think we need
[21:06] to recognize that he's tapped into
[21:08] something here that's kind of been
[21:09] overlooked by a lot of people. I'm not
[21:11] talking about the harshness and all of
[21:12] that because you what your position
[21:15] paper uh is part of that, but the way
[21:17] you do it and the message you convey
[21:19] subliminally and all that's a part of
[21:20] it, too. Pat's got a problem there. But
[21:23] as far as the the the economic
[21:25] uncertainty that people have, uh the
[21:27] desire for change in Washington, uh the
[21:30] the cynicism people have toward their
[21:32] own government, we need to we need to
[21:34] recognize that. Now, our answer is not
[21:36] building a wall or excluding people. Uh
[21:40] but uh but there's a problem there that
[21:42] I think that we've overlooked. And I see
[21:44] that in Tennessee when I go around, I'm
[21:46] home almost every weekend. I go around,
[21:48] people are concerned about losing their
[21:50] jobs. I go to places some some little
[21:52] communities have lost two textile
[21:55] manufacturing uh concerns. Well, it's
[21:57] easy for somebody to convince them let's
[21:59] pass law that they can't move, you know,
[22:00] but that's not the answer obviously and
[22:02] it's up to us to recognize that we've
[22:05] got to formulate a message and and and
[22:08] carry the proper message to these people
[22:09] to win them over. One of the things was
[22:11] said on this program, one of our special
[22:13] we did last night, uh, Ben Weber, was
[22:15] that that Senator Dole when he said
[22:18] yesterday, "Well, I didn't realize that
[22:20] that was such a big deal, this economic
[22:22] thing that Senator Thompson just
[22:23] outlined until Patan rape."
[22:26] >> That's not exactly what he said. He said
[22:28] he never thought that we would end the
[22:29] New Hampshire primary arguing about
[22:31] trade, which is quite different than
[22:32] saying I mean he understood exact and
[22:34] and he made the point that he didn't
[22:36] think he was going to have to argue
[22:37] about that because in a state like New
[22:38] Hampshire and like the rest of the
[22:40] country where so many jobs depend on
[22:42] exporting goods, the notion of a
[22:44] rigorous protectionist policy such as
[22:46] Pat Buchanan is advocating will cost us
[22:48] jobs not create them.
[22:49] >> Yeah. Gary Ber lay out a scenario, a
[22:52] political scenario, not base here again.
[22:54] you you do a lot of you have your own
[22:55] beliefs and etc etc but you also watch
[22:57] what other people believe and how they
[22:59] act. Lay out a scenario how Pat Buchanan
[23:01] gets the nomination.
[23:03] >> Well, he gets it by winning the
[23:05] primaries coming up. I mean,
[23:06] >> but how does he win the primaries
[23:08] particularly as the as the winnowing
[23:10] process continues and it ends up maybe a
[23:13] two-man race whether it's either with
[23:15] against Senator Dole or Lamar Alexander.
[23:17] Well, one way he wins the primaries is
[23:20] if Senator Dole and others attempt to
[23:23] bash him so much that they insult the
[23:25] conservative base of the party. I can
[23:27] see him doing very well in South
[23:28] Carolina. In Arizona, which is coming
[23:30] up, uh I think in states like Michigan,
[23:33] he has the chance of putting together
[23:35] evangelicals with bluecollar workers in
[23:37] in areas around Detroit. So, there's
[23:40] some interesting possibilities here. But
[23:41] I Jim, I I think the senator is really
[23:43] touching on the key thing here. My one
[23:45] of the most vivid memories of my life is
[23:47] seeing my 55-year-old father come home,
[23:50] old Marine, going into the kitchen table
[23:52] and crying. I'd never seen him cry in my
[23:54] life because he had just lost his job.
[23:56] My party can't sound cavalier or
[24:00] unconcerned about real live tragedies
[24:03] that happen to American families all the
[24:05] time because of dislocations in the
[24:07] economy, recession, some trade policies,
[24:11] etc. And I think that's the message
[24:12] Buchanan has and I believe it's a
[24:14] powerful message when coupled with these
[24:16] social issues.
[24:17] >> But we have to stop dwelling on the
[24:18] problem and be offering the solutions. I
[24:20] mean Pat's very good exacerbating the
[24:22] problem but it has to be a you know our
[24:24] party has a has to have a positive uh
[24:27] message about what the solutions are.
[24:28] >> We as a
[24:29] >> and further well further you know again
[24:31] I get back to the fact that uh Pat will
[24:33] not be electable right now. you, the
[24:36] party itself has a problem with the
[24:37] moderate vote and the pro-choice
[24:38] conservative vote, even wanting a
[24:40] Republican in the White House. They want
[24:42] Republicans in the Congress and the
[24:44] Senate because the economic reforms
[24:45] they'll get, but they're not convinced
[24:47] that they want Republicans in control of
[24:49] all three bodies. And certainly
[24:51] Buchanan's going to absolutely assure
[24:54] that they're not going to want a
[24:55] Republican and you're going to have a
[24:56] massive walk out in in the general
[24:58] election. He said, we ran the clip a
[24:59] moment ago. He said in South Carolina,
[25:01] he Buchanan said that uh he emphasized
[25:04] how important the abortion his abortion
[25:06] stand was. How how does that r how does
[25:08] that ring toward is getting the
[25:10] nomination?
[25:11] >> Again, it may help him in a lot of the
[25:12] primaries, although I've been encouraged
[25:14] to see the that the majority of the vote
[25:16] in the primaries has been moderate. In
[25:18] fact, in New Hampshire, the exit poll
[25:20] showed 67% of the voters that voted in
[25:22] the primary were for taking the plank
[25:24] out of the platform specifically. Um but
[25:27] the problem is the case for the general
[25:30] election is such that uh moderates and
[25:32] pro-choice conservatives are willing to
[25:34] walk on the White House as long as we
[25:36] keep Republican control of the Congress.
[25:37] >> That that's a disaster in my view for
[25:39] the party. If if the party uh backs down
[25:41] on its right to life stance, I can tell
[25:43] you that the kind of people that belong
[25:44] to my organization, they're gone.
[25:46] >> Yeah. Except Except Gary, keeping the
[25:48] plank as is and backing down on the
[25:50] issue are two separate questions. that
[25:52] they they'll they'll either sit at home,
[25:54] they'll put their energy someplace else,
[25:56] they'll they'll go somewhere.
[25:57] >> How important is abortion, Ben Weber?
[25:58] >> Abortion is an important issue to the
[26:00] Republican party. The pro-life vote and
[26:02] the broader pro- family religious
[26:04] conservative vote is indispensable to
[26:05] the Republican party. You also have to
[26:07] get people that don't agree on those
[26:08] issues. And that's what a majority party
[26:10] is all about. You know, when we were a
[26:11] little tiny minority party all those
[26:13] years, the Democrats controlled
[26:14] everything in this country. We didn't
[26:15] need to worry about these arguments.
[26:17] Part of this is the pain of being a
[26:18] majority. We have to conflict settle all
[26:21] these conflicting claims.
[26:22] >> You agree? You think that's possible,
[26:23] Senator?
[26:24] >> Yeah, I do. And I think we as a as a
[26:25] party ought to be in pretty good shape.
[26:27] We shouldn't be too concerned that we're
[26:28] fighting among ourselves and trying to
[26:30] pick a winner after the first primary. I
[26:32] mean, this is these guys are going
[26:34] against each other. It's natural. I
[26:35] mean, the Willie Horton ad was running a
[26:37] primary, one Democrat against another.
[26:39] You know, it gets pretty rough
[26:40] sometimes. But we after this thing is
[26:43] over with ought to be in a good position
[26:44] in addressing some of these problems. It
[26:46] was President Clinton who vetoed the
[26:48] balanced budget. It was President
[26:50] Clinton who vetoed a welfare bill that
[26:51] many uh Democrats supported. It was
[26:54] President Clinton who opposed regulatory
[26:56] reform. A lot of things that would solve
[26:58] the the problems that Pat have have
[27:00] pointed out. We ought to have the high
[27:02] ground on that.
[27:02] >> But it's going to be a while before you
[27:03] get to President Clinton, isn't it?
[27:05] >> It'll be a while.
[27:06] >> Okay. Thank you all for very much.
[27:07] >> Thank you.
[27:17] Still to come on the NewsHour tonight,
[27:19] Shields and GO, Richard Hullbrook, and a
[27:22] Phyllis Theorough essay. Margaret Warner
[27:25] does Shields and Gigo.
[27:27] >> That's syndicated columnist Mark Shields
[27:29] and Wall Street Journal columnist Paul
[27:30] Sheiggo. Welcome back. Thank you,
[27:32] >> Mark. We just heard four Republicans
[27:34] trying to grapple with the divisions
[27:36] that Pat Buchanan's candidacy has
[27:37] exposed in the Republican party. Do you
[27:39] think this year that the party can
[27:42] accommodate all those differences
[27:43] without some kind of serious rupture?
[27:45] >> Well, I think the point Vin Weber made
[27:46] was was a telling one that that is that
[27:49] the party has become a more popular
[27:51] party, a bigger party, a a more
[27:53] disperate party. It is it is no longer a
[27:55] white Protestant upper middle class
[27:58] college educated party. And with that
[28:00] comes divisions. Uh I I think it's going
[28:02] to be tougher to put it together because
[28:04] for a very simple reason, Margaret, and
[28:05] that is that Pat Buchanan in his
[28:07] campaign has reached out to a group of
[28:10] cultural conservatives and religious
[28:11] conservatives and said, "I will carry
[28:14] your banner." Prior to this time,
[28:16] there's been a certain patting on the
[28:17] head, sort of a a wink and a nudge, and
[28:20] I'm with you, and don't you worry, and
[28:21] I'll talk to you over the loudspeaker on
[28:23] the pro-life march, but I won't show up
[28:25] myself. And they know people, thousands
[28:27] of people disagree with Pat McCann know
[28:29] one thing about him. He means what he
[28:30] says on this stuff and I think that I
[28:32] think that's become a a real problem.
[28:34] >> How serious do you think these divisions
[28:35] are?
[28:36] >> Well, the divisions uh the divisions are
[28:38] real. I mean, these fault lines exist.
[28:40] What the Buchanan candidacy has done is
[28:42] he's opened it much wider. Uh there'll
[28:44] be consequences. For example, I don't
[28:46] think that the abortion plank and the
[28:48] platform is going to be changed. Flat
[28:49] out will not be changed because
[28:51] >> because of this candidacy, because of
[28:53] the strength that he's shown. I think
[28:54] that it'll be much tougher if Bob Dole
[28:56] gets the nomination, for example, or
[28:58] Lamar Alexander get the gets the
[29:00] nomination to have somebody as the vice
[29:02] presidential nominee who is not
[29:04] pro-life, probably impossible, which
[29:07] probably damages Coen Pal's chances of
[29:09] being on the ticket, for example. So, he
[29:11] is asserting the cause of the cultural
[29:14] conservatives, and that has consequences
[29:16] um for November.
[29:18] >> And how about on the economic issues
[29:19] though, Mark? I mean the trade the
[29:22] protectionism of Pat Buchanan versus uh
[29:24] you know the historic free trade
[29:26] commitment can that be papered over
[29:28] >> No it can't be papered over Margaret
[29:30] what Pat Buchanan does is he attacks the
[29:32] basic premise of the Republican economic
[29:35] approach. Republican economic approach
[29:37] has been unfettered
[29:40] capitalism uninhibited by government
[29:43] regulation will lead to nana will lead
[29:45] to joy will lead to expanding and and
[29:48] happy lives
[29:48] >> or at least jobs. And what P and what
[29:50] Pat Buchanan argues is and and and shows
[29:53] the evidence that this isn't the case
[29:55] that that that that the ideological
[29:58] purity of that argument that this is a
[29:59] wonder that as as it's become more un
[30:03] uninhibited un unfeded capitalism under
[30:06] 20 years of Republicans and
[30:07] conservativizing of the Democrats. The
[30:10] income gap is growing and people are
[30:12] being hurt and that's what Pat Buchanan
[30:14] is addressing. It isn't I don't think
[30:15] it's trade versus non-trade nearly as
[30:17] much as is there a role is there is
[30:20] there some sort of greater public
[30:21] responsibility in a way his message is
[30:24] putting people first I mean and as
[30:26] opposed to profit
[30:27] >> but Paul as both Anstone and Vid Weber
[30:29] pointed out it's one thing that Pep
[30:31] Buchanan is identifying this this
[30:33] symptom this middle class anxiety but
[30:35] his solutions are very different from
[30:38] traditional Republican solutions I mean
[30:39] is there any way that say and Alexander
[30:42] can co-opt that the message but come up
[30:45] with a solution that somehow is more in
[30:47] keeping with the traditional Republican
[30:49] view.
[30:50] >> Sure there is. I mean but the way not to
[30:52] do it is to do what Buchanan is doing
[30:54] which is a kind of Robert Reich and the
[30:56] labor secretary and Bill Clinton
[30:57] democratic analysis and blaming
[31:00] corporations making regular business
[31:02] decisions to keep them profitable uh for
[31:07] what's going wrong. uh the Clinton
[31:08] remedies, the the path for the
[31:10] Republicans, I think, to take is to go
[31:12] back to the solutions of growth and
[31:14] opportunity, the Jack Kemp, Ronald
[31:16] Reagan agenda of uh unleashing
[31:19] opportunity, reducing taxes, and also
[31:22] pointing out that in the first three
[31:24] years of the Clinton administration,
[31:25] their policies haven't done anything for
[31:27] the wage gap either. Uh Dick Army, for
[31:29] example, the House majority leader, is
[31:30] going to come out next week probably and
[31:32] talk about the Clinton crunch, say that
[31:34] Bill Clinton got your raise. But do you
[31:36] think that the the voters that Pep
[31:37] Buchanan's speaking to are going to
[31:39] respond to that kind of argument?
[31:40] >> No. And and and I I think the mistake I
[31:43] think the mistake that's made is that uh
[31:46] that Americans are basically pragmatic.
[31:48] They are not ideological people. And
[31:51] Americans hate government. They think
[31:52] it's awful. They think it's a pain in
[31:53] the neck. But when they're told that the
[31:55] one can of tuna fish has been found
[31:57] outside of Pocutella, Idaho with a trace
[31:59] of bachulism in it, they want the
[32:00] federal government involved. And there's
[32:02] a sense right now that they want
[32:03] something done about this. that you want
[32:05] to see the the the real impact of Pat
[32:07] Buchanan's
[32:09] >> candidacy the Newsweek cover not time
[32:12] where Pat Buchanan was on but on
[32:13] Newsweek where they got corporate
[32:14] killers where where the CEOs are being
[32:17] held accountable for the layoffs with
[32:19] record profits that's going to be part
[32:21] of the political it is part of the
[32:22] political dialogue
[32:22] >> there is no way in the world that Bob
[32:24] Dole can get the nomination uh uh and
[32:27] win the election against Bill Clinton
[32:28] running as Pat Buchanan light I mean the
[32:32] or bashing corporations I mean he does
[32:34] not come off as somebody who flies
[32:36] around an Archer Daniels Midland's jet
[32:38] does not come off as somebody who will
[32:40] bash Archer Daniels Midland. And the the
[32:43] the the thing Mark is right about is
[32:46] that the the danger for the Republican
[32:47] party is that Pat Buchanan's diagnosis
[32:51] is shared by the left wing of the
[32:53] Democratic party. And that can be big
[32:55] trouble for Republicans if they feel
[32:57] that they need to accommodate that. They
[32:58] need to meet it head-on. The only thing
[32:59] that can beat redistribution and soak
[33:02] the rich is growth. It's opportunity.
[33:04] And those two paradigms have ex have
[33:06] fought each other. And if the
[33:07] Republicans slide over and agree to that
[33:09] view of the world, they're going to get
[33:11] walloped.
[33:12] >> Right. Let's talk about this Republican
[33:14] establishment. Buchanan's out there
[33:15] saying, "We've got the establishment on
[33:16] the run. The establishment's out to get
[33:18] me." They're sending their faxes all
[33:19] over Washington. Who is this Republican
[33:21] establishment, Mark? And is there
[33:23] anything it can do to stop Buchanan?
[33:26] >> Uh, second part first is sure, there's
[33:29] some things they can do. They cannot
[33:30] stop him politically.
[33:31] >> Wait, who are they? They can drop a dime
[33:32] on him. They can they can put stories
[33:34] out on him. They can do all that sort of
[33:36] stuff and and kind of get try try and
[33:38] attack him personally. Uh who are they?
[33:40] They're K Street and they're Wall Street
[33:42] essentially. Uh and the problem is that
[33:43] there's a big overlap between the two
[33:45] parties between K Street and Wall
[33:46] Street. Uh K Street is the the lobbyists
[33:49] canyon here in Washington DC. uh there
[33:51] there are people who are uh uh wired uh
[33:56] who are very close to policy that that
[33:59] affects their industry their uh their
[34:01] particular interests. Uh but Mar Mar Mar
[34:03] Mar Mar Mar Mar Mar Mar Mar Mar Mar Mar
[34:03] Mar Mar Mar Mar Mar Mar Mar Margaret in
[34:04] 1964 when governors controlled cong
[34:07] delegations to conventions they tried to
[34:09] stop Barry Goldwater in 1972 when
[34:11] governors overwhelmingly endorsed Ed
[34:13] Musky they tried to stop George McGovern
[34:15] if somebody wins primaries and defeats
[34:18] his principal opponents there's no way
[34:19] he he or she can be deprived of the
[34:21] nomination
[34:22] >> who is the establishment uh I mean I'd
[34:25] like to know I mean the the part two
[34:27] parties now are almost shells shells of
[34:30] elected officials and fundraisers
[34:32] uh what the Republican establishment, if
[34:34] you will, can do and it includes an
[34:36] awful lot of people like N. Gingrich and
[34:37] Dick Army. I think number one, they
[34:39] could say a Pat Buchanan presidential
[34:42] nomination, he would be our George
[34:43] McGovern. He would cost us control of
[34:46] the House and the Senate, and it is too
[34:47] great a risk. I don't think this this
[34:49] habit of calling him an extremist works
[34:52] at all. That what is is exactly what was
[34:54] said about Ronald Reagan. It is exactly
[34:55] what was said about Barry Goldwater. It
[34:57] almost never works. It's what Bill
[34:58] Clinton is saying about the Republicans
[35:00] in general. It's not going to work. And
[35:04] so you've got to take him on on the
[35:06] issues. You've got to say he would cost
[35:07] us Congress. And then I suppose if it
[35:08] really gets bad towards the end, you
[35:11] going to have to prevail on one of the
[35:12] two candidates or Steve Forbes, Lamar
[35:14] Alexander, or Bob Dole, who's ever
[35:15] trailing, get out of the race. Do you
[35:17] think that's going on even right now
[35:19] >> that Haley Barber, the chairman of the
[35:21] RNC, is trying to send signals or
[35:23] someone is to Dick Luger or Steve Forbes
[35:25] to
[35:25] >> Well, I I assume that people are calling
[35:28] Dick Luger. I mean, right now, you have
[35:30] to conclude that the Senate has become a
[35:32] graveyard of presidential ambitions. I
[35:33] mean, you look at the roster up there,
[35:35] people have tried to run for president
[35:36] recently as Arland Spectre and Phil
[35:37] Graham, but back to Ted Kennedy and Joe
[35:39] Biden. I mean, it it's not a place to
[35:41] run for. The Andy Washington fer and
[35:43] passion is still very strong. Sure,
[35:45] Haley Barber would like to, but you're
[35:47] not going to talk to somebody. Mar
[35:49] Alexander has staked his life on this.
[35:51] This is all he's been doing. This is Bob
[35:53] Dole's last chance. You're going to come
[35:54] up to him and say, "Hey, Bob, why don't
[35:55] you step aside?"
[35:56] >> Come on. That's not going to happen.
[35:58] >> It's not going to Lamar Alexander has at
[36:00] least a couple of good weeks here,
[36:01] another few shots at it. Now, if he
[36:03] loses three, four, five in a row,
[36:05] >> then he's then then it becomes a
[36:07] different story. He won't have any money
[36:08] anyway, so they won't have to tell him
[36:09] to get out. Quickly before we leave, uh,
[36:11] three of the four guests, uh, talking to
[36:14] Jim said Pat Buchanan is too extreme for
[36:16] the mainstream of the party and he can't
[36:18] get the nomination. Do you agree?
[36:20] >> I recall, uh, four out of four saying
[36:22] that about George McGovern in 72, but I
[36:25] remember Republicans saying about Ronald
[36:26] Reagan in 1976 that he was too extreme.
[36:30] I think uh, that uh, if he wins, he's
[36:32] going to win it. If it's a if they can
[36:34] keep Alexander and Dole in, he could
[36:37] very well have a string of victories. I
[36:38] agree with Mark on the three-man race,
[36:40] but and one other point, if Bob Dole and
[36:42] Lamar Alexander continue to run what I
[36:44] think are largely tactical, passionless,
[36:47] idealist campaigns, maybe Pat Buchanan
[36:50] can beat him one-on-one because an idea
[36:51] beats a non idea every time.
[36:54] >> Thanks, guys, very much. Leave it there.
[37:07] Now, a farewell interview with Richard
[37:09] Hullbrook. Elizabeth Farnsworth will
[37:11] conduct it.
[37:12] >> Richard Hullbrook left his post as US
[37:14] ambassador to Germany in August 1994 to
[37:17] become assistant secretary of state for
[37:19] Europe. His chief assignment, Bosnia.
[37:22] Today, his final day on the job, a
[37:24] ceremony at the State Department honored
[37:26] his work on the Dayton Peace Accord that
[37:28] brought an end, at least temporarily, to
[37:30] the four-year civil war in Bosnia. Mr.
[37:32] Hullbrook returns to a career in
[37:34] investment banking in New York, but
[37:36] first, he joins us for a newsmaker
[37:38] interview. Thank you for being with us,
[37:40] Mr. Ambassador.
[37:40] >> Pleasure.
[37:41] >> You traveled in August 1992 to Bosnia,
[37:44] and you had seen war before. You were in
[37:46] Vietnam for 6 years as a foreign service
[37:48] officer during the war, but you said
[37:50] Bosnia was different. It was so
[37:52] personal. What did you mean?
[37:55] >> Uh, what I really found appalling about
[37:57] Bosnia on my first two trips there as a
[37:59] private citizen and inexplicable was
[38:02] that it was people killing their
[38:04] neighbors. You'd go into a town and
[38:08] there'd be 10 houses. Eight would be
[38:10] blown up. In the middle of it, there
[38:11] would be a Serb house that wasn't blown
[38:13] up. people came and killed each other
[38:16] just knowing who they were uh on ethnic
[38:20] basis. In Vietnam, it was an ideological
[38:23] struggle. It was brutal. More people
[38:25] died, but it didn't have that personal
[38:27] quality.
[38:27] >> Was that the beginning of your
[38:28] determination to do something about it?
[38:31] >> Well, when the administration took
[38:33] office, I volunteered to do to get
[38:35] involved in Bosnia and fate and destiny
[38:38] had another course that had followed.
[38:41] >> You went to Germany. I went to Germany
[38:43] as ambassador and then the rest of it
[38:46] unfolded.
[38:47] >> And some have said that you have been
[38:48] particularly impelled uh especially in
[38:51] the past year by the memory of your
[38:53] colleagues including Robert Frasier who
[38:55] were killed on the road over Mount
[38:56] Ingman Inman uh Ingman on route to
[38:59] Sarvo.
[39:02] >> Uh yeah it's very hard to explain these
[39:05] things. Bob Frasier and Joe Cruz Nelson
[39:08] Drew were in the vehicle behind us. Uh,
[39:13] it went over the side. It was not a road
[39:15] accident. It was an accident of war. We
[39:18] were only on that road because we
[39:21] couldn't get in any other way. The night
[39:23] before in Belgrade, I had complained
[39:25] bitterly to Mallosvich that it was
[39:27] obscene that the Americans trying to
[39:29] bring peace had to travel in that way.
[39:32] And after the head of the Bosnian Serbs
[39:34] >> after that, well the the the head of
[39:36] Yugoslavia.
[39:37] >> I mean the head of Yugoslavia, right?
[39:38] Not Maladich. Yeah.
[39:39] >> Uh and um we then um you know it put us
[39:45] uh under greater determination. A lot of
[39:47] people stepped forward to take their
[39:48] place. We reconstituted the team after
[39:51] bringing our our comrades home and we
[39:54] set off again. And I think it did give
[39:57] us a renewed determination and a
[39:59] tremendous cohesion. This cohesion was
[40:02] formed very dramatically at Fort Meyers
[40:05] in the chapel right after the memorial
[40:07] services when the president met with us.
[40:09] There's a very dramatic photo of this
[40:12] and he pulled us together just as he
[40:14] pulled the nation together after
[40:16] Oklahoma City, gave us our mission and
[40:19] set us off again. And that was a moment
[40:21] in time. You you can see it in the
[40:23] photograph. And now after the weekend in
[40:26] Rome where you had to deal with what
[40:28] you've called some of the bumps in the
[40:29] road of the peace pro process, how would
[40:32] you characterize how it is now?
[40:35] >> Uh on November 21st when we initial the
[40:37] agreement in Dayton, I said publicly
[40:40] that we would have plenty of problems
[40:42] along the way. The remarkable thing
[40:44] isn't that we're having some problems,
[40:46] all of which we predicted. Remarkable
[40:48] thing is how much is going in the right
[40:50] direction, but we're headed for a
[40:52] decisive moment here at D plus 90. That
[40:54] is 90 days after Paris. That's only 27
[40:57] days away. And on that day, Sarville
[41:00] must be a unified city under Muslim
[41:02] control. And uh we have to be ready for
[41:05] it.
[41:06] >> What's happening with that right now?
[41:07] Let's look at just a few of the bumps in
[41:08] the road today. People in Saravo are
[41:12] being the Bosnian Serbs are being urged
[41:13] by their leaders to leave because on
[41:15] Friday in one of the one of the
[41:17] neighborhoods just a little bit north of
[41:19] Saravo, the the Bosnian government will
[41:22] take control. the Bosnian government's
[41:24] police will move in. What is happening
[41:26] now? Are they moving in out in large
[41:28] numbers? And is that a a real threat to
[41:30] the peace process?
[41:31] >> There are two kinds of Serbs in these
[41:32] areas. Serbs who've lived there for a
[41:35] long time and who should stay and whose
[41:37] rights have been fully guaranteed not
[41:38] only by Dayton, but by the government
[41:41] and Serbs who came in from the rural
[41:44] areas with rifles and mortars and
[41:47] committed the killing. This suburb
[41:48] you're talking about is on the hills
[41:49] above Saro. There was a Volkswagen plant
[41:52] there that was turned into a munitions
[41:54] plant. And the people who moved in
[41:57] dispossessing Muslims, using those
[41:59] houses to shoot, bringing their families
[42:01] in, they know who they are. If they
[42:03] leave, that's fine. I wouldn't overdo
[42:06] this exodus business. There is an
[42:08] exodus, but there has been a massive
[42:10] dislocation of personnel. One quarter of
[42:13] all the people in Bosnia are homeless or
[42:15] refugee or displaced.
[42:18] uh we should not get too
[42:21] uh upset about an additional marginal
[42:24] dislocation in the pursuit of peace
[42:26] particularly of people leaving or people
[42:28] who shouldn't have been there to begin
[42:29] with.
[42:30] >> And what about Mostar in in Rome this
[42:32] weekend where you met with the leaders
[42:33] of the various entities you also were
[42:36] dealing with Mostar where Croats and
[42:38] Muslims were to begin joint um joint
[42:41] police patrols. What's happening there
[42:43] now? Mustard concerns me a great deal
[42:45] more in a way because that is the core
[42:48] of the federation, the American
[42:50] engineered alliance into a single entity
[42:53] in half the country of the Muslims and
[42:55] the Croats. There's no excuse for the
[42:58] conflict in Mustar. We flew into Rome on
[43:00] emergency basis late at night. The two
[43:04] mayors of Mustar and the European Union
[43:06] uh representative in Mustar, Mayor
[43:08] Kushnik of Bremen, Germany. We
[43:11] negotiated all day long. The real drama
[43:13] in Rome was over mustard
[43:16] >> and it delayed the press conference
[43:17] several hours and during those hours we
[43:19] left the Bosnian Muslims and the crotz
[43:22] alone for about an hour and finally the
[43:23] NATO supreme commander General Joel one
[43:26] and I went into the room and said we got
[43:29] to get moving and we listened for a
[43:30] while and after about 15 minutes I
[43:32] realized that they were arguing about a
[43:34] single building
[43:36] a high school built in the
[43:38] Austrahungarian Empire era in nice
[43:41] Moorish style It's a sure it's a nice
[43:43] high school, but this is not what it's
[43:46] all about. So, General Joel Juan made a
[43:48] very strong statement saying we don't
[43:50] have 60,000 NATO and other troops in
[43:52] Bosnia for this kind of stuff. And we
[43:54] suggested a compromise uh that it be
[43:57] used for communal purposes and we got
[44:00] through that. There were also a lot of
[44:02] other issues, joint police patrols and
[44:03] so on. We cannot tolerate this kind of
[44:06] problem in Mustar. He talked to
[44:07] President Tman about it and going
[44:09] forward the US government will have to
[44:11] take the lead in preventing this from
[44:13] recurring.
[44:14] >> Are they are the patrols the joint
[44:15] patrols
[44:17] going on now?
[44:18] >> I'm getting uh some reports. They're not
[44:21] clear to me. Um since I've been a
[44:23] private citizen now for two hours. I'm
[44:26] going to leave it to my uh colleagues
[44:28] and successors, former colleagues to
[44:30] work that out. But I want to stress
[44:33] again, it is a bump in the road, a
[44:35] predictable one. It is not the end of
[44:37] the Dayton process. I'm a little
[44:39] surprised that people are interpreting
[44:42] Dayton as falling apart or under
[44:44] challenge when it's so obviously moving
[44:47] forward at the macro level and it was so
[44:49] predictably going to run into these
[44:51] problems at the specific level. The
[44:53] basic threat to Dayton comes from what
[44:56] you might call the IRA or Hzbollah
[44:59] factions of all the groups. And above
[45:03] all, the most dangerous of the
[45:05] rejectionists, the pale Serbs, the
[45:07] Bosnian Serbs, headed by two indicted
[45:10] war criminals. As long as they're in
[45:12] power, Dayton is going to come under
[45:14] challenge. Anyone who followed the
[45:16] Middle East and watched the PLO fraction
[45:18] into into the Arafa wing and the total
[45:22] rejectionists, anyone who's watching
[45:23] what Jerry Adams and the Shinfen and the
[45:25] IRA is going through understands the
[45:28] dilemma. Structurally, it's the same,
[45:29] but in Bosnia, it's at a much higher
[45:32] level in terms of danger, bloodshed,
[45:36] bloody-mindedness even more than
[45:38] Palestine, Israel issues. And finally,
[45:43] it has the highest possible consequences
[45:45] to our national interest because we, the
[45:47] United States, have fully committed
[45:49] ourselves to success in Bosnia. And
[45:52] failure is unthinkable and unacceptable.
[45:55] >> That's a very high bar, isn't it? in a
[45:57] in a part of the world that's been the
[45:58] graveyard for so many diplomatic hopes.
[46:01] >> It's a very high bar, but look where we
[46:03] are. Look at when I appeared on your
[46:05] program with um uh Jim and Robin uh less
[46:09] than a year ago. Go back and look at the
[46:12] tapes. Look where we've come from. look
[46:14] at my uh all our discussions at this
[46:16] table and tell me if a year ago you or
[46:20] Jim Lair any of the rest of you would
[46:22] have thought that today we were talking
[46:24] about a country that's no longer at war
[46:26] where people are reaching out to bridge
[46:28] across the uh years of bitterness and
[46:31] killing and where most things are
[46:33] progressing roughly on schedule. That is
[46:36] unimaginable and it is a very good event
[46:40] but there are people trying to wreck it
[46:42] and there is a criminal element running
[46:44] the pale serves and they must be dealt
[46:47] with
[46:47] >> all these outstanding issues and yet
[46:49] you're leaving. Why?
[46:53] uh as I've said many times and I I I'm
[46:57] reluctant to involve personal issues and
[46:59] a and a professional issue, but I have a
[47:02] fundamental tension in my life between
[47:04] personal and professional issues. My two
[47:07] sons are both in New York. I got married
[47:09] eight months ago and my new wife and her
[47:12] two children are in New York. They're
[47:15] all literally anchored in New York, so
[47:18] to speak. And uh I had to make a choice.
[47:21] I'd made a commitment. So I ask the
[47:23] president's understanding. President
[47:25] who's given us spectacular support
[47:27] throughout this negotiation and has been
[47:30] much more heavily involved than the
[47:31] public realizes understood that. Uh he
[47:34] asked and and Warren Christopher asked
[47:36] if I would be available on a on a
[47:39] special basis. Um I said of course I
[47:42] would. In fact uh rather oddly as I left
[47:45] the government this evening they swore
[47:47] me in as an adviser to my successor, an
[47:50] unpaid adviser. So, you might jump on a
[47:52] plane and go and solve a problem if one
[47:54] comes up.
[47:55] >> I I hope not. I don't want to. I'm
[47:57] starting a new job tomorrow. I'm I'm
[47:59] joining uh CS First Boston, New York
[48:03] investment firm, investment bank, and I
[48:06] do not wish to do that. But if they ask,
[48:08] of course, I'll help.
[48:10] >> Journalists and and others have written
[48:12] that your role in the negotiations was
[48:15] so important because of your bravado,
[48:17] your your very definite, strong
[48:19] negotiating style. There are lots of
[48:20] words that are put on that. They said uh
[48:23] one one journalist wrote that you
[48:26] understood that the Balkans are a snake
[48:27] pit and you were ready to be ready and
[48:29] willing to be the biggest snake of all.
[48:31] Do you think that's why you that was
[48:33] Roger Roger Cohen in the New York Times
[48:35] Sunday magazine? Do you think that's why
[48:37] you succeeded?
[48:38] >> You mean that I was a big snake?
[48:39] >> No. That you were willing to really
[48:40] knock heads together.
[48:43] You know, I keep reading about screaming
[48:45] and yelling and bullying and so on, but
[48:47] I worked on Asia for most of my career
[48:49] and you check the press on that and it
[48:52] never said I yelled. You have to match
[48:54] your method to the moment and your style
[48:56] to the substance and the situation. And
[48:59] in this negotiation, dealing with people
[49:02] who are liars and in some cases killers,
[49:06] dealing with people who are desperate,
[49:08] dealing with traditions, you just have
[49:09] to get very tough. But the key thing
[49:13] wasn't uh anything to do with personal
[49:15] style. It was the fact that in the
[49:18] summer of last year, the president fully
[49:20] committed the United States to an allout
[49:23] diplomatic, political, and military
[49:26] effort. And one of the great things that
[49:29] people should have learned from this is
[49:30] that there is there are times when air
[49:33] power without not backed up by ground
[49:36] troops can make a difference. That's
[49:38] something that our European allies
[49:39] didn't all agree with. Americans were in
[49:41] doubt on it. It made a difference.
[49:43] Secondly, sanctions worked. Sanctions
[49:46] really hurt the Yugoslavs. By Yugoslavs,
[49:48] I mean the Serbs.
[49:50] It had to be marshaled.
[49:52] >> And briefly, US involvement in this
[49:55] major way has been crucial in your view.
[49:57] And you've said that European
[49:58] institutions just are not I think you
[50:00] said the institutions of Europe have not
[50:01] met the postcold war challenge. Well,
[50:03] you know, Elizabeth, I believe strongly
[50:05] that we're that historians will look
[50:07] back on the latter part of last year as
[50:09] a seminal period in American foreign
[50:11] policy like the 4749 period. But the
[50:14] thing is, we know how that that movie
[50:16] ended. It won. The Cold War was over.
[50:19] This one, we don't know yet how it's
[50:21] going to go forward. We need the
[50:22] Europeans to work closely with us. The
[50:24] European institutions turn out to need
[50:27] some strengthening and restructuring in
[50:30] order to work in the postcold war era.
[50:32] and we encourage them. We're the most
[50:34] pro- Europe administration since
[50:36] Kennedy, but we feel that they ought to
[50:39] we encourage them in their own internal
[50:41] restructuring.
[50:42] >> Mr. Ambassador, good luck to you and
[50:43] thank you very much.
[50:44] >> Thank you.
[50:54] Finally tonight, SAS Phyllis Theorough
[50:56] has some thoughts about what makes a
[50:58] family work.
[51:02] If there is one thing that virtually all
[51:04] politicians in Washington DC agree upon,
[51:07] it's the value of the American family.
[51:09] And if there is a harder city than
[51:11] Washington, in which to raise a real
[51:13] American family, it hasn't been
[51:14] revealed.
[51:17] At the low and jobless end of town,
[51:20] raising anything, much less something as
[51:22] complex and resource gobling as a
[51:24] family, is extremely difficult. At the
[51:27] high and workaholic end of town, many
[51:30] families are de facto abandoned by men
[51:32] and women who are too busy and ambition
[51:34] driven to come home.
[51:37] >> Yet home is where we go for the one
[51:39] thing that all human beings need to feel
[51:42] human. Intimacy.
[51:45] Intimacy is many things rolled into one
[51:47] world and word where we feel safe,
[51:50] supported, and most importantly
[51:52] connected to an inner circle of people
[51:54] who are committed to the same goals that
[51:56] bind them together.
[51:58] >> In other words, a family. If the family
[52:01] could be compared to a life raft in
[52:03] which its individual members sit, then
[52:06] intimacy is the air that holds the raft
[52:08] up. But if one member of the family
[52:11] takes out a knife and begins to slash at
[52:13] the raft, then the family has to choose
[52:16] between throwing him or her out of the
[52:17] boat or sinking.
[52:20] >> Welcome to meeting of Alcoholics
[52:21] Anonymous.
[52:23] >> That is the awful choice that millions
[52:25] of families have to make when somebody
[52:27] in them is an alcoholic or drug addict.
[52:30] And in Washington DC, where the stresses
[52:32] upon families are unusually high, so too
[52:35] is the consumption of drugs and alcohol.
[52:38] God
[52:40] >> bring.
[52:42] >> Every week there are 1,870
[52:44] different alcoholics anonymous and
[52:46] narcotics anonymous meetings conducted
[52:49] just within the beltway.
[52:52] Paul Mallaloy is 57 and a recovering
[52:55] alcoholic who 20 years ago had been a
[52:58] high-powered congressional staff lawyer.
[53:00] But he wound up drinking over a fifth of
[53:02] whiskey a day, which cost him his job,
[53:05] his wife, and his future on Capitol
[53:08] Hill. Malloy went into treatment and
[53:11] then a government funded halfway house.
[53:14] But residents were only allowed to
[53:15] remain there for 6 months. And when
[53:18] Mallaloy was there, 11 of the 12
[53:20] residents required to leave fell off the
[53:23] wagon within 30 days.
[53:25] >> And so you begin to think, uhoh, what am
[53:28] I going to do when my 6 months is up?
[53:30] And it never got to that point because
[53:32] the county decided to close the house
[53:35] after I was there about four months. And
[53:37] fortunately, the 13 of us living there
[53:40] uh were able to get a loan to rent the
[53:43] property from the county. And that's
[53:45] where the first Oxford House started.
[53:48] From that first house rented in a
[53:50] suburban Maryland neighborhood in 1975,
[53:53] has come a whole network of houses
[53:55] across the country, occupied by men and
[53:58] women who are not yet ready to be
[54:00] reunited with their own families, but
[54:02] need the structure, accountability, and
[54:04] intimacy that a good family provides in
[54:07] order to stay straight.
[54:10] Malloy, who has been reunited with his
[54:12] wife, is the head of an organization
[54:14] called Oxford House Incorporated. There
[54:17] are presently 630 other Oxford houses in
[54:20] existence across the country.
[54:23] >> You know, Mike has some off the floor.
[54:25] >> The rules are simple and irrevocable.
[54:28] >> We'll go through what uh the
[54:30] requirements are and then we have an
[54:32] interview with the House members.
[54:34] >> Everybody has one vote on who is
[54:36] admitted in. Expenses and chores are
[54:38] equally shared. And the House meets once
[54:40] a week to discuss any problems.
[54:44] And here's the big one. If you drink or
[54:46] use drugs, you're out on your ear.
[54:49] Which, come to think of it, isn't a bad
[54:51] way to run a family. The best ones, no
[54:53] matter who's in them, succeed when
[54:55] everybody gets intimately involved.
[54:59] >> I'm Phyllis Theo.
[55:03] Again,
[55:07] the major stories of this Wednesday. The
[55:09] top three finishers in New Hampshire's
[55:11] Republican primary, Buchanan, Dole, and
[55:13] Alexander moved on to the next primary
[55:15] states. Two Arkansas bankers were
[55:18] indicted for bank fraud for their
[55:19] alleged contributions to then Governor
[55:21] Clinton's 1990 campaign. And a freight
[55:24] train derailment in Colorado killed two
[55:26] crew members and spilled sulfur sulfuric
[55:29] acid in a mountain pass. It was the
[55:31] fifth major train wreck this month.
[55:33] We'll see you tomorrow night. I'm Jim
[55:35] Lara. Thank you and good night.
[55:39] >> Major funding for the NewsHour with Jim
[55:41] Lara has been provided by the Archer
[55:43] Daniels Midland Company, ADM,
[55:46] Supermarket to the World,
[55:49] and by New York Life. Yet another
[55:52] example of New York Life's wise
[55:55] investment philosophy
[55:58] and by the Corporation for Public
[56:00] Broadcasting and by the annual financial
[56:03] support from viewers like you.
[56:08] On tomorrow's morning edition, a profile
[56:11] of Richard Hullbrook, who's leaving the
[56:13] post of special envoy to Bosnia. Join us
[56:16] between 3 and 9:00 a.m.
[56:22] >> Video cassettes of the NewsHour with Jim
[56:24] Ler are available from PBS video. Call 1
[56:28] 800 328 PBS1.
[56:35] This is PBS.
[56:46] Funding for local broadcast of the
[56:47] NewsHour with Jim Larer has been
[56:49] provided by a grant from ODS Health
[56:51] Plans, the group medical plans that meet
[56:53] the needs of Oregonians by providing a
[56:55] broad range of medical and dental
[56:56] coverage and responsive service and by
[56:59] the Collins Foundation. The Collins
[57:01] Foundation is dedicated to improving the
[57:03] quality of life in Oregon.
[57:21] The Churchills,
[57:29] the public prof.
[57:34] Yep.
[57:47] Oh, there we go.