Suicide is up among Black Americans. We need to talk about it.

Channel: NPR

Transcript

Language: English (original, YouTube automatic captions)

[0:01] [music]

[0:05] [applause]

[0:12] Welcome and thank you for joining us.

[0:15] The stories we tell ourselves are

[0:17] powerful, even when they're not true or

[0:20] stop being true. For a long time, the

[0:23] story we told ourselves was that suicide

[0:25] is something that doesn't affect black

[0:27] people, or at least that black Americans

[0:29] are less likely to take their own lives

[0:31] than white Americans. But that story is

[0:33] changing, and it's changing fast. Over

[0:37] about the last decade, according to the

[0:39] CDC, the death rate by suicide among

[0:41] black Americans of all ages has risen

[0:43] dramatically. It's up more than 50%.

[0:46] Among black young adults ages 20 to 24,

[0:50] the suicide rate has risen to nearly 32

[0:53] deaths per 100,000.

[0:55] All age groups and genders are at risk.

[0:58] For the first time since the federal

[1:00] government began keeping track of this,

[1:02] black boys and young men between the

[1:04] ages of 16 and 29 are dying by suicide

[1:07] at a higher rate than white boys and

[1:10] young men in the same age group. Girls

[1:13] are not exempt. In fact, researchers

[1:15] looking specifically at adolescence

[1:17] found that black girls show among the

[1:19] highest rates of suicidal thoughts and

[1:21] attempts of any race or gender group.

[1:24] And you know what else? Behind every one

[1:27] of those numbers is a person, a family,

[1:30] a friend, a community asking, "What is

[1:32] happening? What could we have done?"

[1:35] I've asked myself that question since my

[1:37] own brother took his life 16 years ago.

[1:40] For years, I found it hard to talk

[1:42] about. Not because I was ashamed, but

[1:44] because I didn't know what to say or

[1:46] what difference it would make. But as

[1:48] this epidemic keeps getting worse, as we

[1:51] lose more friends and family and

[1:53] neighbors, people whose names we know

[1:56] and people we don't, I've come to

[1:58] understand that our silence is not

[2:00] protecting us. And that's why we're

[2:02] here. We're here to talk about what is

[2:04] happening, why so many are struggling,

[2:07] what keeps us from asking for help, and

[2:10] what all of us can do to change these

[2:12] numbers. Because this is a conversation

[2:15] we cannot afford not to have. We want to

[2:19] remind anybody who's in trouble that

[2:21] help is only a call or text away. And

[2:23] that number is 988. It's staffed 247 and

[2:28] you can call or text for help at any

[2:30] time.

[2:32] And now I'd like to bring into the

[2:33] conversation Deborah Lee, author and CEO

[2:36] of BET Networks. [applause]

[2:43] [applause]

[2:47] Uh, you lost your beautiful son Quinn

[2:51] on August 16th, 2020.

[2:54] Tell me about him.

[2:56] >> Tell you about

[2:57] >> Tell me about Quinn.

[2:58] >> About to talk about

[3:00] >> Here he is. Quinn forever. Um, he's

[3:03] beautiful looking. [laughter]

[3:05] >> Um, Quinn was my first born and um,

[3:11] uh, I also have a younger daughter who's

[3:13] four years younger than Quinn, Ava.

[3:16] And, um, Quinn was just the light of the

[3:19] world. He was so personable and so

[3:23] outgoing. I'm an introvert, so he's

[3:26] quite the opposite of me. He loved

[3:28] people. and he grew up in Washington DC,

[3:31] went to Sidwell. Um, when he left

[3:34] Sidwell, he went to Boston College. He

[3:36] loved Boston College. He was a DJ. And,

[3:41] uh, his peers would follow him from club

[3:43] to club or party to party. He loved

[3:46] music. I say that's cuz he grew up

[3:50] inside of BET. Um, and his sister loved

[3:53] music, too. And um I always think of him

[3:57] still as just the happiest person in the

[4:00] room. He was full of life and full of

[4:02] personality

[4:04] and could talk to anyone, strangers. Um

[4:08] he um when he graduated from um Boston

[4:12] College, he came back to DC and worked

[4:14] at Sirius XM for a while and then he

[4:18] decided to move to California. his

[4:20] sister went to USC and she was there

[4:23] working in the music industry and he

[4:25] wanted to go and try his hand at the

[4:27] music industry. So he worked at Warner

[4:29] Brothers for several years and then he

[4:32] worked at Cap Capital Records and he was

[4:35] in ANR. He liked finding talent and

[4:39] discovering people. And one day he uh

[4:42] was promoting a a concert

[4:45] at the 9:30 Club here and um the artists

[4:50] were supposed to go to a hotel and he

[4:52] went to pick him up and called me and

[4:54] said, you know, the hotel room's not

[4:56] ready yet. Can I bring the artist to

[4:59] your house? [laughter] This is like, oh,

[5:02] okay. It's 7:00 in the morning. Sure.

[5:05] And so I went back to sleep and I woke

[5:07] up later and had guys sleeping all over

[5:10] my sofas and on the floor. And the

[5:13] artists were um Kendrick Lamar and

[5:16] School Boy Q.

[5:19] And he promoted the he and his buddies.

[5:21] He had two buddies. They promoted their

[5:24] first uh concert in DC which was at the

[5:27] 9:30 Club. And of course I went I always

[5:30] went to Quinn's uh performances. is he

[5:33] also started.

[5:34] >> They make you stand up though. See,

[5:35] that's the thing about the 9:30 Club.

[5:36] You got to stand up. I can't do all

[5:37] that. I can't I can't be sitting up

[5:39] standing up that long. I hope they got a

[5:41] chair for you. You guys

[5:42] >> probably the oldest one in there along

[5:44] with his buddy's parents. So, we had

[5:46] chairs up on the uh balcony. Uh he also

[5:50] started a festival some of you might

[5:52] remember called Trillectro and it was at

[5:55] Merryweather Post and uh he started it

[5:57] over by the the Nats uh stadium and

[6:01] again would bring in artists and um that

[6:04] festival grew and was very successful.

[6:07] Anyway, all that to say, he loved music.

[6:09] He loved people. He loved me. I loved

[6:12] him. He loved his dad, my ex-husband,

[6:14] Randy, and he loved his sister. And we

[6:18] never had we never saw

[6:22] any signs of depression.

[6:24] Never. He just seemed like, you know,

[6:27] he's the coolest guy. And if you ask

[6:29] people about Quinn, they're like, "Yeah,

[6:31] no, we we followed his lead. He was

[6:34] cool. He loved fashion. and he loved um

[6:37] he just loved life. And

[6:39] >> one of those let's just pause on that

[6:40] because that's I think one of those

[6:42] myths that we need to deal with is that

[6:45] everybody who experiences this has had

[6:48] some long-term diagnosis

[6:51] that they've been manifesting serious

[6:54] depression or signs of serious mental

[6:56] illness,

[6:57] >> you know, basically forever. And you're

[6:59] saying that just is not true in his

[7:01] case. It's just not true.

[7:03] >> Not true at all. When when did you know

[7:04] that he was struggling?

[7:06] >> Um well uh it was um probably July 2020.

[7:11] It's in the middle of COVID. We were all

[7:13] going through a hard time. Um he lived I

[7:17] by this time I had moved to LA to be

[7:19] close to he and his sister and um you

[7:22] know that was a difficult time. I don't

[7:24] know if you remember what was going on

[7:25] in August 2020 but it was very dark. We

[7:28] had a president who was telling us to

[7:31] drink Clorox. We had no sign of a

[7:34] vaccine and we were all isolated and I

[7:38] have type 2 diabetes so he didn't want

[7:40] to be near me so we would have virtual

[7:42] dinners and virtual game night. He was

[7:45] living with his uh girlfriend. My

[7:48] daughter was living with me and you know

[7:51] we were trying to make it through co and

[7:53] uh not any different from anybody else.

[7:56] you know, we couldn't go any place. We

[7:57] couldn't be with people, but we were

[7:59] trying to make it as normal a time as

[8:01] possible. And then one night, his

[8:03] girlfriend called a Friday night and

[8:05] said, "I think Quinn needs to see his

[8:08] family." And I said, "What do you mean?"

[8:11] And she said, "I think he needs to see

[8:13] you. Can I bring him over?" And I said,

[8:15] "Of course." You know, Quinn can come

[8:17] over here anytime he wants. Of course.

[8:20] And it must have been like 10:00 on a

[8:22] Friday night. and she brought him over

[8:25] and um you know my daughter came down

[8:28] and all four of us just sat there

[8:30] talking and I could see Quinn was

[8:33] withdrawn you know he was sitting in a

[8:35] chair he's over to the side it was

[8:37] almost like he was a little come toast

[8:41] and I was like Quinn what's wrong you

[8:42] know can I get you some tea do you want

[8:44] anything and so he he was not talking

[8:48] very much at all and his girlfriend was

[8:50] doing all the talking as were you know

[8:52] me and my my daughter. Um, and we just

[8:56] sat there for about an hour and so

[8:59] finally they left and um, I had no idea

[9:03] what was going on with him. Just no

[9:06] idea. It was not him. He was not

[9:08] talkative. He was quiet and he was

[9:11] withdrawn and it worried me to death. So

[9:14] I talked to his girlfriend the next day

[9:16] and she said he was doing a little bit

[9:18] better. By that Tuesday, she called me

[9:21] and she said, "I think I need to take

[9:23] Quinn to the emergency room." And I

[9:25] said, "Okay, I'll meet you over there."

[9:27] And um he had gotten back into that kind

[9:31] of commos state and wasn't talking and

[9:34] wasn't being vocal. And so, uh he was in

[9:39] the emergency room for a couple of days

[9:41] and then, uh they sent him to UCLA to

[9:44] the psychiatric ward over there. and he

[9:47] stayed there a few days and I learned

[9:50] that he had been talking about um taking

[9:53] his own life and I had no idea where

[9:57] that came from or why he was focus I

[9:59] mean this was a guy that to the world

[10:03] you would think he had everything going

[10:05] for him you know he was loving his job

[10:08] and music and his friends and his

[10:10] girlfriend and um you know he I to the

[10:14] to the naked eye he didn't seem like he

[10:16] had any problems. Um but when he got out

[10:19] of UCLA,

[10:21] um I went over almost every day. Some

[10:24] nights I slept at their house. Um just

[10:27] to make sure he was all right cuz one

[10:29] day he would say he was thinking about

[10:31] taking his life, then the next day he

[10:32] would say he's not thinking about

[10:34] taking. And so it's kind of went back

[10:36] and forth. And on the long walks I

[10:39] talked to him about George Floyd.

[10:42] I talked to him about Black Lives

[10:45] Matter.

[10:46] And this is a young man who grown up in

[10:49] a very white environment. If any of you

[10:52] all know Sidwell, it's very white. And

[10:54] he had a very he had a lot of white

[10:57] friends. And

[10:57] >> it's a very it's a very for people who

[10:59] aren't familiar, it's a private school

[11:00] in DC. Many of the ch children and

[11:03] grandchildren of presidents went there

[11:06] >> have gone there. It's a it's a you know

[11:08] very schools in town in town.

[11:10] >> And he he did very well there. Um, and

[11:15] he had a lot of white friends. He played

[11:16] football, but he was kind of the spirit

[11:19] guy. He wasn't a good football player,

[11:21] but he was always the one leading the

[11:23] the cheers. And um, but he talked to me

[11:27] about how he was re-evaluating his

[11:30] relationship with his white friends. You

[11:32] know, he had never seen this kind of

[11:34] racism of George Floyd and Black Lives

[11:37] Matter. So, he talked to me about that.

[11:39] He talked to me about wanting to be

[11:42] outside protesting but being afraid

[11:45] because of COVID. He didn't want to

[11:46] bring anything home to his girlfriend or

[11:49] to me. Um and um you know he talked

[11:54] about his body image which of course he

[11:56] was you know he was a little pudgy as a

[11:58] kid but by this time he was [laughter] a

[12:01] handsome um fit young man. And I said

[12:05] Quinn what are you talking about? you

[12:07] know, you're you you're amazing. You

[12:09] know, if you think you need to work out

[12:11] more, work out more. But so we would

[12:13] have these long heart-to-heart um

[12:16] conversations and he seemed like he was

[12:19] getting back to himself, you know, that

[12:21] he was doing better. He'd been at UCLA a

[12:23] few days and they had given him some

[12:25] medication. We got him a therapist, but

[12:28] you could only do therapy on Zoom. Uh I

[12:31] couldn't even hug him because of the

[12:34] state we were in. Um, and all I wanted

[12:37] to do was hug him cuz I was so worried

[12:40] about him. And um, so his girlfriend was

[12:44] going home to see her parents and she

[12:47] had to uh, isolate for a week before she

[12:50] could spend a week with her parents.

[12:52] Remember when we had to do that? So, she

[12:54] had planned to do that. So, she was

[12:56] going to be away two weeks. [snorts] And

[12:58] I said, "Well, Quinn can come stay with

[13:00] me and Ava, his sister." And that's what

[13:03] we plan to do cuz we were still worried

[13:05] about him. But he was doing better. He

[13:07] was talking to a therapist and you know

[13:10] he seemed like he was in good mood and

[13:11] we were talking about what he needed to

[13:14] do to get better and he was starting to

[13:17] be ashamed that when he went back to

[13:20] work people would know

[13:22] >> that he had mental health problems. I

[13:24] mean he was really ashamed and I

[13:27] >> which is interesting being in LA where

[13:29] it's not like they do shows about it. I

[13:31] mean it's not like

[13:32] >> it's not like he lived in some

[13:33] environment where it's never been heard

[13:35] of but somehow that was still something

[13:37] he was feeling because

[13:38] >> deep down inside he didn't want to talk

[13:40] to the HR person and I must say you know

[13:43] I don't think he was getting a lot of

[13:45] support from work and um but I said you

[13:49] know a lot of people were going through

[13:50] things you know it's it's nothing to be

[13:52] ashamed of um but anyway he he took his

[13:55] girlfriend um to the airport and he was

[13:58] supposed to come over my house and I

[14:00] called him about 11:00 that morning and

[14:02] I said, "Quinn, what time are you coming

[14:04] over?" And uh he said, "Oh, I'll be over

[14:06] in a little while. I'm going to take a

[14:08] nap first." And I said, "Okay, well,

[14:11] we're looking forward to seeing you."

[14:12] And I had just moved into a new house

[14:14] and um you know, I was anxious for him

[14:17] to see it. It wasn't totally put

[14:19] together, but I was looking forward to

[14:20] our two weeks together. And um around 2

[14:24] or 3:00, I started getting worried. I

[14:26] hadn't heard from him. And um I decided

[14:30] to drive over to his house. He lived in

[14:32] Mid City near Lockma. And his, you know,

[14:35] as I was going over there, his

[14:37] girlfriend called and said, you know,

[14:38] are you all having fun? And I said, he

[14:41] has Quinn hasn't shown up. And she said,

[14:44] well, do you want the code for the door?

[14:46] And I said, yes, that would be very

[14:47] helpful. You know, just thinking really

[14:50] that he had taken a nap and had

[14:52] overslept. That's what I thought. So she

[14:56] gave me the code. But I got into the

[14:57] house. I went back to the bedroom. I

[15:00] couldn't really open the door and so

[15:03] finally I pushed it hard and uh found

[15:07] him on the floor and um he had hung

[15:11] himself

[15:13] on the door

[15:15] um with a belt

[15:18] and um I couldn't believe it and I

[15:20] didn't know I didn't know what to do.

[15:23] So, I called my daughter and she called

[15:26] the um you know emergency number.

[15:30] [gasps and sighs] Wow. And um

[15:34] I tried to give him CPR and that didn't

[15:37] help. And um so when the uh EMTs or

[15:41] whatever came, they took him in the

[15:43] other room and tried to resuscitate him

[15:46] and that didn't help. And then friends

[15:48] started coming over and you know my

[15:51] daughter came over. Um, and you know,

[15:55] all of a sudden I realized that he

[15:58] really did take his life. And it's like

[16:02] [gasps]

[16:03] one of the hardest things

[16:06] >> as a mother

[16:06] >> as a mother I'll ever have to deal with.

[16:09] And um,

[16:13] and as a mother, you know, I knew I had

[16:16] to be worried about my daughter. And so

[16:18] I had to get myself together. And um at

[16:22] this time I don't think I I had left BET

[16:24] by this point but I still had a lot of

[16:26] other obligations. Um and luckily the

[16:30] next morning uh one of my girlfriends

[16:32] came over and brought locks and bagels.

[16:36] >> And I tell you I think that's the only

[16:37] thing that got me out of bed. I just,

[16:40] you know, I really still can't believe

[16:42] it that Quinn was so perfect and had so

[16:46] much going for him that he could be so

[16:50] depressed and we didn't know about it.

[16:53] >> Do you blame yourself?

[16:55] >> Oh, I used to in the early days, you

[16:58] know, why didn't I go over earlier? Why

[17:00] did I let him go home at all and be by

[17:02] himself for, you know, a couple of

[17:05] hours? Why didn't I take his girlfriend

[17:07] to the airport? Why didn't I, you know,

[17:10] pick him? I mean, you do, you do all

[17:12] your mind does that. [clears throat]

[17:13] And um my brother took his own life. It

[17:16] was the day after um Mother's Day and he

[17:18] had called me to wish me a happy

[17:20] Mother's Day and I was hurrying him off

[17:22] the phone because my kids were little

[17:24] then and we were out at the canal and

[17:26] they were chasing ducks and I just said,

[17:28] "Hey, I got these kids out here and

[17:30] they're chasing ducks." And he just

[17:32] said, "I just called to say I love you."

[17:33] Yeah.

[17:34] >> And of course the next day

[17:36] >> you found

[17:37] >> and I found and I thought if I'd only

[17:39] stayed on the phone

[17:41] >> if I had you know if if if that

[17:45] >> that will that just will drive [snorts]

[17:48] you crazy.

[17:50] >> And um

[17:50] >> how did it with Quinn um you know I was

[17:53] so close to him and I was so close to my

[17:56] daughter.

[17:57] >> I just never imagined he would do

[17:59] anything like this. And I don't know,

[18:01] they say sometime it's that one moment

[18:04] and if you're not there, but then if you

[18:06] are there, they may try it the next day.

[18:08] And one of the things I thought about,

[18:10] well, he may have come over to my house

[18:12] and tried it there, but I just couldn't

[18:15] believe he would do it. And when he did

[18:17] it, I just

[18:20] thought about all the other things. Were

[18:23] there other things that we could do?

[18:25] >> Well, we're going to talk a lot about

[18:26] that. That's one of the things we're

[18:28] going to talk about this in our time

[18:30] here is what are some of the things we

[18:32] could do and that it is an impulsive

[18:34] act.

[18:35] >> I know one of the things that helped me

[18:37] when my brother took his own life is my

[18:40] beautiful stepdaughter who who is a

[18:42] psychiatrist.

[18:44] >> Um I I don't remember where she was in

[18:46] her training at the point and one of the

[18:47] things she said to me is he made a

[18:49] mistake.

[18:50] >> He made a mistake and I'm sure if he

[18:53] could undo that mistake he wouldn't make

[18:55] it. And I found that so comforting

[18:58] because I thought, "Oh, right. He made a

[19:01] mistake."

[19:02] >> So I could stop judging him over or not

[19:04] judging him. I was never judging him. I

[19:06] was judging myself.

[19:08] >> Like what did I do? What did I miss?

[19:10] What could I have done? What could all

[19:11] of us have done?

[19:12] >> That's the hardest thing. What did you

[19:14] miss? What did I miss?

[19:15] >> What What I'm sure his dad who lived in

[19:19] DC, I'm sure he was asking himself the

[19:21] same.

[19:21] >> I should have moved. Why didn't I move?

[19:22] >> Yeah. Right. And um there is no answer

[19:26] to that. No, there's no answer.

[19:27] >> What has helped you though? One of the

[19:28] things I wanted to make sure we talked

[19:31] about is you've worked really hard on

[19:34] your healing

[19:35] >> and which is why again we thank you.

[19:39] You're able despite the fact that it's

[19:41] really hard to be here today and I know

[19:44] that you have not spoken about this

[19:46] publicly before. What are some of the

[19:49] things that helped you? Well, what what

[19:51] helped me the most, I think, were his

[19:54] friends, Quinn's friends, my friends. I

[19:57] have a good group of friends in LA, and

[19:59] they all showed up for me. My daughter,

[20:02] she was living with me at the time, and

[20:05] um she was working on a show, uh Girls

[20:08] Five ever. So, she would go in and do

[20:10] her writing, uh and have her writer's

[20:13] room, and I would hear laughter coming

[20:15] from there. And we just had to to make

[20:18] our way through it. and um not get too

[20:22] depressed ourselves. Uh I I was telling

[20:25] you a year after Quinn's death Oh, and I

[20:28] I had therapists.

[20:29] >> I want to point that out. Had

[20:30] >> a couple of therapists.

[20:31] >> You made sure you got therapy,

[20:33] >> right? And

[20:34] >> you posted about this really quickly on

[20:35] Instagram, though. And I noticed that

[20:37] you set up a scholarship fund for him.

[20:39] You posted you posted you actually you

[20:41] posted about this actually really

[20:43] quickly. And the Yes, you did. I noticed

[20:45] it. It was It was really within a week

[20:47] or so. And you set up the scholarship

[20:49] fund really quickly. And tell me about

[20:52] the thing your therapist proposed to you

[20:54] that you also me.

[20:55] >> The scholarship fund helped because

[20:57] people want to do something. So I was

[20:59] like give money to the scholarship I

[21:01] mean internship program. So we have five

[21:03] interns a summer who are part of the

[21:06] Quinn Coleman uh internship program and

[21:09] they come and learn about the music

[21:11] industry and Quinn was very big on

[21:13] encouraging other people to come into

[21:15] the music industry. Uh, so that helps a

[21:18] lot. I go over and speak to them every

[21:19] year and I just boohoo talking about

[21:21] Quinn. [laughter]

[21:22] But they love it and they love getting

[21:24] to know about him and they love learning

[21:26] the music industry. But what my

[21:28] therapist told me a year after Quinn uh

[21:30] passed, I was trying to figure out a way

[21:32] to honor him. And I'm not really big at

[21:35] going to cemeteries. I mean, I do go and

[21:39] I I realized that I'm the most important

[21:42] person to go for Quinn. Um and um but my

[21:46] therapist suggested that I send a email

[21:50] to people in our immediate group, our

[21:52] family, Quinn's friends. Uh so I sent

[21:55] out an email to about 20 people saying,

[21:58] "Please send me three attributes that

[22:02] you think of when you think of Quinn."

[22:05] And um they did. And I I was going to

[22:09] bring them, but I forgot. but you know

[22:12] compassionate, inclusive, a good friend,

[22:15] I mean all these wonderful attributes.

[22:19] And so I put them all together and I

[22:20] wrote back to everyone. I said, "Okay,

[22:22] these are the similar things that kept

[22:25] coming up and maybe there were seven or

[22:28] eight of them and I said, you know, to

[22:30] honor Quinn, please pick one of them and

[22:33] try to be better at it."

[22:35] >> And that really helped me. And the thing

[22:38] that I really learned after uh Quinn

[22:41] passed is how many people loved him, you

[22:43] know. And

[22:44] >> is that okay with you? Because one of

[22:46] the things that I noticed is that and

[22:48] one of the things that

[22:50] >> you've shared is that people grieve

[22:51] differently and you have to respect the

[22:54] different ways that people grieve and

[22:55] some people

[22:57] >> kind of give you the impression that

[22:58] they don't want to talk about it. Is it

[23:00] okay with you when people remind you of

[23:02] him? Is that okay with you?

[23:04] >> I love talking about him. Yeah, he was

[23:06] he was my guy. He was my guy.

[23:09] >> And we love you, Debbie.

[23:10] >> Thank you.

[23:11] >> Thank you.

[23:13] [applause]

[23:13] [music]

[23:24] [music]

[23:26] I'm delighted to bring our next guest

[23:28] in. Dr. Paul Newat is a psychiatrist. He

[23:31] is the medical director at John's

[23:33] Hopkins Center for Suicide Prevention.

[23:35] He is one of the country's foremost

[23:37] authorities on suicide. He treats

[23:39] suicidal patients as a psychiatrist.

[23:41] He's co-authored scores of research

[23:44] papers on how and why people kill

[23:46] themselves. And he teaches graduate

[23:47] courses on this subject. Please welcome

[23:49] Dr. Paul Neistad. [applause]

[23:56] Also with us is Congresswoman Bonnie

[23:58] Watson Coleman. Uh she's the co-founder

[24:01] co-chair of the Congressional Caucus on

[24:03] Black Women and Girls. Um and I also

[24:05] want to mention that she was one of the

[24:07] first people to sound the alarm on the

[24:11] rising sort of crisis of suicide among

[24:14] black youth. Uh she was the chair of the

[24:17] Congressional Black Caucus' emergency

[24:19] task force on black youth suicide and

[24:21] mental health. This is back in 2019. She

[24:24] delivered the report Ring the Alarm: The

[24:26] Crisis of Black Youth Suicide in

[24:27] America. Please welcome Representative

[24:29] Bonnie Watson Coleman. [applause]

[24:34] I just wanted to start by asking each of

[24:36] you how you got interested in the

[24:39] subject. Now I know Dr. Nestad it's you

[24:42] know obvious you're a psychiatrist.

[24:44] >> Yeah.

[24:45] >> But you know I I've read in one of your

[24:47] papers that actually suicide is a tricky

[24:51] subject for psychiatrists because it

[24:52] represents failure.

[24:53] >> Yeah that's true. And

[24:54] >> so could you just talk about how you got

[24:57] interested in the subject?

[24:58] >> No, that's absolutely true. I think it's

[24:59] worth mentioning that most psychiatrists

[25:01] um have either lost a patient to suicide

[25:04] or or will. Um the fact is we treat a

[25:06] population that is high risk for

[25:08] suicide. And so there's a there's a

[25:11] sense that we have have lost something.

[25:12] There's a sense that a cardiologist

[25:14] doesn't get when someone dies of a heart

[25:15] attack or an oncologist when someone

[25:16] dies of cancer. There's a sense that

[25:18] this is personal. But suicide, as we've

[25:20] been hearing about today, it's

[25:21] unfortunately very common, especially in

[25:23] a population with psychiatric illness.

[25:24] So, we do see that, but I was interested

[25:27] in suicide mostly um because of my worry

[25:30] that I was not good at predicting it and

[25:33] that I wouldn't know if I was missing

[25:34] something.

[25:35] >> And Representative Watson Coleman, what

[25:36] about you? How did you get interested in

[25:38] this? And as I pointed out, you had

[25:40] actually started talking about this at a

[25:42] point when a lot of other people were

[25:43] not. As I said at the beginning, a lot

[25:46] of people have this myth that that black

[25:48] folks don't they don't take their own

[25:50] lives and it's just it's, you know, it's

[25:53] a white thing as it were. I mean, just

[25:54] to be blunt about it. So, but you

[25:56] started sounding the alarm. Yeah.

[25:58] >> Really early on. What What were you

[25:59] seeing?

[26:00] >> Well, don't judge me, but I was looking

[26:03] at Facebook and I kept seeing these

[26:06] consistent stories about young children,

[26:09] young black children, 8 years old, 10

[26:11] years old, 15, 12. um either attempting

[26:15] suicide,

[26:17] saying that they were thinking of it or

[26:19] or actually committing suicide or dying

[26:22] under those circumstances. And I said to

[26:25] my staff one day, I don't know what's

[26:27] happening here, but this is disturbing

[26:29] to me. And I [snorts] know we can't

[26:31] solve it, but we can at least elevate

[26:33] the discussion

[26:35] and and perhaps bring some resources and

[26:37] some thinking into this, doctrine. So, I

[26:40] spoke with Karen Bass, who was the

[26:42] chairman of the Black Caucus at the

[26:43] time, and I told her what I was feeling,

[26:45] what I had seen, and she said,"Well,

[26:48] what do you want to do about it?" I

[26:48] said, "I really want to elevate the

[26:50] discussion." She said, "Well, let's do

[26:51] an emergency. Let's do a task force." I

[26:54] said, "Well, let let's do an emergency

[26:55] task force so people don't think that

[26:57] it's something that's going to go on and

[26:59] on and on and on, but that the issue is

[27:02] urgent and there's an emergency around

[27:04] it that we want to tackle it for a

[27:06] period of time and then do something."

[27:09] And so that's what we did. We created

[27:11] the emergency task force on um youth

[27:15] mental health and black suicide, black

[27:18] youth suicide.

[27:18] >> Did you get any push back? Did any

[27:20] people say to you, "I don't want to talk

[27:21] about that or that's not a thing. That's

[27:22] not a thing."

[27:24] >> You know, on the contrary, I had about

[27:26] 14 members of Congress who were part of

[27:28] it. Maybe not actively, but gave it gave

[27:31] their support. I had a lot of people

[27:34] from the the the world of um Taraji

[27:38] Henen and Susan Taylor and people like

[27:40] that as well as everyday people who

[27:43] wanted to talk about it because they

[27:45] were working in that space on their own.

[27:48] And I had um Dr. Michael Lindseay who

[27:52] was a he's a psychiatrist and the head

[27:55] of the silver school at NYU who agreed

[27:58] to uh lead a task force for me of

[28:02] academics and doctors and social workers

[28:05] and even a person who had experienced

[28:08] the loss of a child. So we embarked on

[28:12] what I guess was about maybe six or

[28:13] eight months worth of hearings around

[28:15] the country. Um they were coming to us

[28:18] from around the country from high school

[28:20] to very young to um people working in

[28:25] the field and in in the area. And as a

[28:28] result of the work, the task force and

[28:31] the members of Congress put together the

[28:33] ring the alarm uh report which

[28:36] identified what was missing, what was

[28:39] needed and how we needed to react to it.

[28:42] And out of that uh came uh this

[28:45] legislation that I sponsored pursuing

[28:48] equity and mental health.

[28:49] >> I want to talk about that in a minute. I

[28:50] ask you to hold that thought for a

[28:51] minute. Dr. Net, one of the things that

[28:52] distinguishes your work. You're one of

[28:53] the people in your field who's really

[28:55] pushed the idea that suicide affects

[28:58] different groups differently. And that

[29:00] just sort of this is one of the things

[29:02] that Debbie talked about is just seeing

[29:04] this as sort of part of a big sort of

[29:06] mass can really miss some important

[29:08] stories. You really want to talk about

[29:10] young men, young black men, young girls,

[29:13] young black girls, retired athletes,

[29:15] people who go to church, people who

[29:17] don't go to church, people who worship,

[29:18] people don't. Why is that so important?

[29:20] >> I think because suicide, although it's a

[29:22] crisis and the rates are going up, it's

[29:24] not a monolith. And if we're looking at

[29:26] prevention, we can't just apply a

[29:27] one-sizefits-all prevention strategy. We

[29:30] need to look at what is the risk in this

[29:31] community, what is risk in that

[29:33] community, how can we understand this

[29:35] pathway to suicide? And when we do

[29:38] combine everyone together, we miss it

[29:39] all. In fact, in suicide research right

[29:41] now, um we talk a lot about how there's

[29:43] been a slow increase in suicide in

[29:45] general, kind of dropped in 2020, jumped

[29:47] up again in 2021. But we miss what's

[29:50] happening in subopuls that way. We miss

[29:52] that when the suicide rate came uh down

[29:54] in 2020 and then up again in 2021, there

[29:57] was a difference racially. What we saw

[29:59] was actually in many situations, white

[30:01] suicide, which as you said, suicide

[30:03] tends to happen in white populations at

[30:04] twice the rate. White suicide started to

[30:06] come down,

[30:07] >> black suicide started to go up.

[30:09] >> Um, and that gap started to close.

[30:11] Clearly, there's different things

[30:12] happening in different populations and

[30:14] prevention measures that might be

[30:15] working in the white population

[30:17] >> might not be working in the black

[30:18] population, male population, female

[30:20] population. So, we need to disagregate.

[30:22] We need to look at what's happening,

[30:23] what the risk factors are in specific

[30:25] subopuls and work in those communities.

[30:27] and we have tended to work seeing

[30:31] suicide as a medical problem which meant

[30:33] that we addressed it through the ER

[30:35] through the doctor's office or the

[30:37] hospital and there's disproportionate

[30:39] access to those things. Um it's if you

[30:41] want to reach a population that's having

[30:43] increasing suic men that are having

[30:45] increasing rates of suicide are not

[30:47] always going into the clinic. They're

[30:48] not either there's a stigma against that

[30:50] or they're not able to access it. So we

[30:52] got to go where people are. We got to go

[30:54] to churches. We got to go to barber

[30:55] shops. we got to go to athletic events

[30:57] um and reach people that we're missing.

[31:00] >> Representative Spence mentioned that one

[31:02] of the trends that was really concerning

[31:03] her was seeing that kids younger and

[31:05] younger kids

[31:07] >> are being affected by this. What are

[31:08] some of the trends that have most

[31:10] concerned you and your research?

[31:11] >> So that is the trend unfortunately it is

[31:13] especially in the black community

[31:14] younger populations having increasing

[31:16] rates even more than other populations.

[31:18] >> Why is that?

[31:19] >> There's a lot of reasons and I I always

[31:20] hesitate to find one thing. Suicide

[31:23] obviously is multiffactorial which is

[31:24] good because it means there's multiple

[31:26] avenues of intervention but it's lots of

[31:28] things. So my research I focus a lot on

[31:30] firearms. What we have seen is that when

[31:32] that trend in in young black people

[31:35] especially young black males started to

[31:37] go up was also a time when we saw a

[31:39] dramatic increase in firearm ownership

[31:41] in the black community. That's 2020.

[31:43] >> In 2020 in the context of the pandemic,

[31:45] the murder of George Floyd, a variety of

[31:47] other things, there was an increase in

[31:50] gun purchases in the US across the

[31:51] board. But for the first time, it wasn't

[31:53] really just an increase in your normal

[31:55] gun owners. The modal gun owner in the

[31:57] US was an older white rural male. Now

[32:00] there was a shift. There's actually more

[32:01] guns being purchased um in blue states

[32:04] than red states. That was the first time

[32:05] that had ever happened. More in urban

[32:07] than rural settings, more in black than

[32:08] white. And as more guns came in to

[32:11] households, when someone might have been

[32:13] suicidal and had a suicidal impulse or

[32:16] made an impulsive suicide attempt, all

[32:17] of a sudden there's a more lethal way to

[32:19] act on it. One myth about suicide that I

[32:22] really like to address is this idea that

[32:24] when someone is suicidal, they're just

[32:26] dedicated to ending their lives and

[32:27] they'll just keep trying. In fact, the

[32:29] research shows that the majority of

[32:32] suicide deaths, especially among young

[32:33] people, suicide attempts are come to

[32:35] impulsively. There's the context of

[32:37] depression, there's risk factors there,

[32:38] but that moment when a decision is made

[32:41] to attempt suicide can come within 5

[32:44] minutes. And then people use what they

[32:45] have available. If they have um pills,

[32:48] they'll use pills. Overdose is the most

[32:49] common method of attempt, but thankfully

[32:51] overdoses are only fatal 2% of the time,

[32:53] only 2%. But if there's a firearm in the

[32:56] house and that's what's available and

[32:58] that's what's used, the fatality rate is

[32:59] 90%.

[33:01] >> So when we saw that increase, um,

[33:03] especially in the black population, we

[33:05] compare it to other markers like

[33:07] suicidal thoughts, suicide attempts. The

[33:09] most recent data from the YRBS from the

[33:11] from the federal government, uh the 2025

[33:13] survey we just completed found that

[33:16] there's actually the lowest rate of um

[33:18] self-reported suicide attempts among

[33:20] young black people in America um that

[33:23] we've seen in years. It was down to

[33:25] about 7.7%.

[33:26] Two years ago it was 14%. Lower numbers

[33:28] of attempts, but the death rate is gone

[33:32] higher than it's ever been. And that

[33:33] just comes down to the fact that when an

[33:35] attempt is made now with so many more

[33:37] guns in the house, that attempt's fatal.

[33:40] [snorts]

[33:40] >> I want to mention that I mentioned that

[33:42] questions. This is an opportunity that

[33:44] you can ask questions if if you have

[33:45] some. And if you do, if you could kind

[33:47] of raise your hand so I could see it and

[33:49] one of our colleagues will kind of um

[33:51] bring you up and get you into um get get

[33:54] a mic to you. So I I'll come to for

[33:56] questions in like five minutes or so.

[33:58] Representative Watson Coleman, what's

[34:00] most worrying to you?

[34:01] >> Worrying?

[34:01] >> Yeah. What's most worrying to you

[34:03] >> beside the fact that the president of

[34:05] the United States is taking away all

[34:07] kinds of funding for the kinds of surve

[34:10] uh research that needs to be done and

[34:12] the services that need to be extended

[34:14] and the fact that we miss so much in our

[34:16] community and we miss so much in our

[34:18] elementary school and we assume certain

[34:21] behavior is because you're a bad kid as

[34:23] opposed to another reason which might

[34:25] lead to something else. Um

[34:28] >> those are things.

[34:28] >> I think that's the most

[34:30] >> Those are things. Huh?

[34:31] >> Those are things.

[34:32] >> Yeah. Those and and those together those

[34:35] are very troubling things. I mean when

[34:36] you when you take money out of mental

[34:38] health so that you can provide security

[34:42] for the head of

[34:45] one of the departments. Um that tells

[34:48] you something about what's important to

[34:49] you. But what that means is that the

[34:52] people that need that kind of service in

[34:55] the community, in your churches, the

[34:57] education in your schools, in your

[35:00] community groups, uh checking on

[35:02] children at a very young age and trying

[35:04] to determine the why of the way they're

[35:07] acting. That's not happening because you

[35:09] don't have the capacity to meet those

[35:11] needs.

[35:12] >> So policy really makes a difference. Do

[35:14] you agree with that? Policy really makes

[35:15] a difference. That's not something

[35:17] >> money comes behind it. myth when that's

[35:19] not something to to ignore. I I want to

[35:21] hear more about myths that people may

[35:23] have. This is this is that myths myths

[35:25] versus facts. I think this is something

[35:27] really important that we can

[35:28] >> that's actually one of the reasons I

[35:29] like to to do these sort of events sort

[35:30] of you know most of my life is doing

[35:32] research at a computer working with

[35:34] patients but here I get the opportunity

[35:36] to dispel these myths. One thing that I

[35:37] think might be maybe most important is

[35:40] there's a myth that asking someone if

[35:42] they're suicidal might plant that idea

[35:44] in their head. Right? So that's this

[35:46] this word.

[35:46] >> Can I stop? Have y'all heard that? Have

[35:48] y'all had You've heard that, right?

[35:50] Like, oh no, don't talk about. It's like

[35:52] how we used to talk about cancer, the

[35:53] big C. We acted like it didn't have a

[35:56] name that somehow if you use the word,

[35:58] it would call it forth like a spirit.

[36:00] And you're telling us that that's just

[36:01] not true.

[36:01] >> It's not the case. People aren't that

[36:03] malleable, frankly. And the reason that

[36:05] myth worries me is because it means that

[36:07] some folks might not ask their loved

[36:09] ones. They might not open that door. I

[36:11] think if there's one thing I could

[36:12] really try to convey is it's important

[36:14] for us to make sure that people we care

[36:16] about know that we're an open door to

[36:17] this. Asking if someone's struggling, if

[36:19] they're withdrawing, they're not acting

[36:21] like their normal self, not seeming to

[36:22] enjoy things they used to enjoy, say,

[36:24] "Listen, I'm I'm worried about you. How

[36:26] you feeling? Are you having thoughts

[36:27] about wanting to hurt yourself? Are you

[36:29] having thoughts of suicide?" Because if

[36:30] you ask that question, if they are

[36:33] having those thoughts, they may or may

[36:34] not be honest with you at that moment.

[36:36] But even if they're not, you've

[36:37] conveyed, "I'm someone you can come to."

[36:39] Remember, if you do ever want to talk

[36:40] about this, I've opened that door. So,

[36:42] that that's why I want to dispel that

[36:44] myth about asking. Ask ask.

[36:49] And anybody have a question?

[36:50] >> My question is, how do you think people

[36:52] can take care of themselves at home? I

[36:54] know you talked a little bit about the

[36:56] lack of resources, but um what about

[36:59] people that don't really have anyone to

[37:01] go to? How would you tell them to take

[37:04] care of themselves?

[37:05] >> How do people take care of themselves at

[37:06] home? when someone's at home suffering,

[37:08] what what can they do to take care of

[37:09] themselves? Is that and and there are a

[37:12] lot of ways you can take care of

[37:13] yourself. Um, one thing is if you start

[37:15] to recognize some of these thoughts that

[37:18] are that are not even waiting till they

[37:20] become suicidal thoughts, but if you're

[37:21] feeling very low mood and it's not going

[37:24] away and it's been a few weeks and you

[37:25] don't feel like your normal self and

[37:26] your sleep is impacted and your

[37:27] appetite's impacting it, it might be

[37:29] depression. And so I recommend some

[37:32] things you can do yourself. There's

[37:33] lifestyle changes, exercise, uh getting

[37:36] good sleep, but when things start to

[37:38] become distressing in a persistent way,

[37:40] seeking help, going to a professional,

[37:43] talking to people you care about that

[37:44] you trust, maybe it's not right away

[37:46] going to a psychiatrist, but maybe it's

[37:48] talking to your clergyman, talking to

[37:50] your family, but eventually if you need

[37:51] a seeking professional, that's one of

[37:52] the best things you can do. I think that

[37:54] that's really important in terms of the

[37:56] black community in particular because we

[37:58] were socialized into believing that we

[38:00] had Jesus, you know, that'll solve our

[38:02] problems or whatever else will solve our

[38:04] problems. But to feel free to be able to

[38:07] express the concerns that you have even

[38:10] about yourself or even to share with

[38:13] somebody else who you think might be

[38:15] going through something. They need to

[38:18] understand that their pain and their

[38:21] potential trauma is is legitimate and

[38:25] that they're that they're okay to not be

[38:27] okay, but that there are ways of dealing

[38:30] with it and being honest about it and

[38:33] knowing that there is a another side to

[38:37] the bad side. There is another side to

[38:40] the depressed side if we're willing to

[38:43] acknowledge it and work through it.

[38:45] While we're getting set for the next

[38:46] question, Congresswoman, I wanted to

[38:48] ask, do you think that there's still a

[38:49] stigma in the black community? I mean,

[38:51] just keeping it real, is there still a

[38:52] stigma that we think that if I'm dealing

[38:56] with sort of mental health issues that

[38:57] there's it's not a black thing or it

[38:59] makes me less of a black person or less

[39:01] than less than a man or less than a

[39:03] woman. Do do you think that there's

[39:04] still a stigma? Well, I think that we

[39:06] have so much trauma in our communities,

[39:09] in our lives to deal with that we

[39:11] sometimes do not recognize that what is

[39:14] happening to us is in fact a

[39:16] manifestation of a mental illness. Um, I

[39:19] don't think that we're embarrassed by it

[39:21] so much anymore because I think that

[39:23] there's been a lot of conversation. And

[39:26] let me say that even though our work was

[39:29] um targeting young black youth, I honest

[39:32] to God believe that on the Hill, which

[39:35] is how we talk about Congress, um there

[39:38] is more discussion and consideration of

[39:41] mental health illness and dealing with

[39:43] those uh problems in communities in

[39:46] general and putting money into those

[39:49] areas. So, I'm not sure that we have the

[39:52] same stigma. We don't talk about it in

[39:55] our churches.

[39:57] I don't think schools are um able to

[40:00] really deal with it. I don't think

[40:02] teachers are necessarily trained to see

[40:06] what might be the reason for behavior

[40:09] and and be able to intervene at an early

[40:11] stage. So, I think it's it's an

[40:14] education that we need to to catch up

[40:17] with.

[40:18] >> You know, if I could just add, the

[40:19] research really supports everything

[40:20] you're saying. There's a great study by

[40:22] my colleague Dr. Leslie Adams and Ary

[40:24] Deini and Tara Willie where they went

[40:26] and interviewed black men that had been

[40:27] having suicidal thoughts uh 14 men and

[40:30] they they dove deep what's going on and

[40:32] the thing that really came out was this

[40:35] sense that I can't I can't seek help. I

[40:37] need to be you know uh emotionally stoic

[40:40] and strong. There's an expectation as a

[40:42] man and as a black man especially and

[40:44] that was keeping them from really

[40:46] seeking help when they needed to. That

[40:47] that stigma I think unfortunately is

[40:49] real.

[40:50] >> Ma'am,

[40:51] >> hi. Um my name is Deborah. I'm a

[40:53] clinician um in the field I work in

[40:55] crisis. Um so I make the determination

[40:58] of whether I'm going to refer them to

[41:00] the hospital uh voluntarily or

[41:02] involuntarily. I work specifically with

[41:04] adolescent. So I try as much as possible

[41:06] to go the voluntary route. Um just cuz

[41:09] if you don't know if you're emergency

[41:11] petition the uh police have to serve

[41:14] that petition and then you're

[41:15] transported uh to the hospital in

[41:17] handcuff. I try not to do that because

[41:19] that can be, you know, traumatizing for

[41:21] youth. However, this school year,

[41:24] there's just been such a resistance to

[41:26] services. Um, and it it's it's just hard

[41:29] to combat. Uh, like you were saying

[41:32] earlier, the schools just we've lost a

[41:34] lot of funding and that they just don't

[41:36] have the mental supports, mental health

[41:38] supports that they need. I just referred

[41:40] um a black ad as ad adolescent male um

[41:44] to the hospital today and I just I

[41:46] couldn't chance it because there was two

[41:47] firearms, you know, present in the home

[41:50] and I understand that there was a lot of

[41:52] factors going on and that there's so

[41:53] many disparities. Um but how do we

[41:57] address the resistance and the lack of

[41:59] psycho education um that's that's going

[42:01] on among families, schools? Can I ask

[42:04] ask you if you don't mind why is there

[42:06] this resistance and are you seeing that

[42:07] this resistance is new?

[42:10] >> Um I I think it's increased this school

[42:12] year. I think with everything going on

[42:15] um just within the government um people

[42:19] are fearful um about costs, you know,

[42:22] lack of being insured. Um people are

[42:25] afraid about their, you know, citizen

[42:28] citizenship status. Um, and you know, I

[42:31] I think there's this fear that they're

[42:33] going to lose their children or that

[42:35] they'll uh be seen as a bad parent when

[42:37] really we want to embrace the adolescent

[42:40] as well as the family. And it's much

[42:42] better when we can pair and partner

[42:44] together um to, you know, to just move

[42:48] along in treatment, but it it's hard to

[42:49] say. I'm glad you brought this up

[42:51] because I feel that

[42:53] some of us I think maybe are

[42:54] acculturated to think that mental

[42:57] wellness is just like a personal

[42:59] individual thing. But one of the things

[43:01] that Debbie Lee was talking about is the

[43:03] co George Floyd the whole context of

[43:06] feeling like you are under attack

[43:09] >> both personally and as a community

[43:12] >> that doesn't doesn't that play a role of

[43:15] course don't you think so?

[43:16] >> Of course. But but at the same time as

[43:18] it can be something that that that

[43:19] worries us and and makes us withdraw, it

[43:21] can also be a positive thing when you

[43:23] feel like you're if you're under attack,

[43:25] sometimes it's better to be under attack

[43:26] as a community because it means you have

[43:27] a community to turn to. Um and so the

[43:30] more we talk about this in a vulnerable

[43:32] community, the the better it is. You ask

[43:34] how to address the lack of

[43:35] psychoeducation is going to be with

[43:37] providing psychoeducation and and also

[43:39] just

[43:41] centering this part of the conversation

[43:43] so people when they are feeling suicidal

[43:45] they don't feel like this is some um

[43:48] totally strange weird thing that doesn't

[43:51] happen to people like me say no no look

[43:53] at the numbers this is happening to

[43:55] people like you and when it happens

[43:56] there's things we can do there's

[43:57] treatments out there that that's one of

[43:59] the most important things to recognize

[44:00] is that something you know as a

[44:01] clinician but a lot of people don't know

[44:03] there are treatments and they work

[44:04] really well. We've we've been treating

[44:06] depression for a long time. We've gotten

[44:08] pretty good at it. Um but people need to

[44:10] have access to that care and be willing

[44:12] to seek it. And that's about psycho

[44:14] education. Just like you said,

[44:15] >> not only do we need

[44:16] >> Congressman, Go ahead.

[44:17] >> Not only do we need access, we need we

[44:20] we need more um culturally um

[44:24] appropriate folks who will work in that

[44:27] space and deal with with our children

[44:30] and our men and our women. Um we al and

[44:33] we need the money to come down from NIH

[44:37] and

[44:38] the other uh institutes to do both

[44:42] research and delivery of services. And

[44:45] we've got to confront the fact that we

[44:47] need our teachers in particular to be

[44:50] able to recognize certain signs so that

[44:53] they can make the kind of referral. Then

[44:55] the referral process needs to be um

[45:00] easy. It it needs to be comforting. It

[45:03] needs to be inviting um as opposed to

[45:06] isolating that person, having it stand

[45:08] out, and making that person feel like

[45:11] you're not worthy or something's wrong

[45:13] with you. So, there's so much more that

[45:16] needs to be done, but we have to

[45:18] approach it holistically from the very,

[45:21] very young all the way up. And you know,

[45:24] we're talking about black men today and

[45:26] and black boys. When I think about black

[45:29] men, I also think about what seems to be

[45:31] the the the assault upon their sense of

[45:35] worth and how that uh is impacting their

[45:41] sense of um worthiness

[45:45] >> and and interpreting that, you know,

[45:47] they don't have a right to be happy, so

[45:49] they're not going to be happy. and

[45:51] they're not being happy is going to make

[45:52] you unhappy and it just becomes a

[45:55] spiral.

[45:57] >> Well, thank you for your work. Thank you

[45:58] for your question.

[45:59] >> Yes. Thank you.

[46:00] >> Thank you for your work. Thank you for

[46:01] your question. We're going to take

[46:02] another short break.

[46:04] >> I just want to remind everybody that if

[46:07] you're feeling some kind of way, if

[46:08] you're feeling some kind of way when you

[46:10] get home, call 988. Call that number. If

[46:13] you know somebody who is struggling, who

[46:15] is having suicidal thoughts, call 988.

[46:18] and we're gonna take a short break and

[46:20] then we come back and we'll continue

[46:21] this important conversation. Thank you.

[46:23] Thank you. [music]

[46:25] [applause]

[46:30] [music]

[46:39] Well,

[46:42] look who's here.

[46:45] Washington DC's own Super Bowl winning

[46:48] tight end, one of the highest drafted

[46:51] tight ends in NFL history. Played for

[46:55] the 49ers, the Denver Broncos, and the

[46:58] hometown team. It had a different name

[46:59] then, so we won't say it. Now, actor,

[47:02] producer, and author Vernon Davis. Thank

[47:04] you for coming.

[47:04] >> Oh, [applause]

[47:10] >> and you all can admit it if you're a WWE

[47:12] fan.

[47:13] >> Yeah. Because I know you know [laughter]

[47:16] at Euan, better known as Big E, after

[47:20] being recruited for the Iowa Hawkeyes,

[47:22] he turned to powerlifting, obvious. And

[47:25] eventually the WWE, where he helped

[47:27] create one of their most beloved and

[47:29] occasionally reviled trios, the new day,

[47:32] and is a solo performer, WWE World

[47:35] Champion, Big Euran, thank you so much

[47:38] for joining us.

[47:39] >> Thank you for having me. [applause]

[47:43] It's so important that both of you are

[47:44] here because you guys are people that

[47:49] other people would think you don't have

[47:50] a care in the world.

[47:52] >> Both professional athletes, top of your

[47:55] game, both of you made it to the big

[47:57] dance in your respective fields, but you

[48:00] both struggled with big painful and

[48:02] frightening feelings. And I just wanted

[48:05] to ask when did that start for you? And

[48:07] ator, I'm going to start with you

[48:08] because you wrote about this in an

[48:10] incredible piece for the Players

[48:11] Tribune. And uh for those of you who

[48:14] follow sports, it's a must readad

[48:17] because it's it's athletes talking about

[48:19] their lives in their own words. So would

[48:22] you just tell us when the scary feeling

[48:23] started?

[48:24] >> Uh I have this distinct memory of being

[48:26] 9 years old and looking in the mirror

[48:29] and having this deep disgust and wanting

[48:32] to be anyone but who I was. And uh that

[48:36] was a very pervasive feeling and that

[48:38] was just kind of the the start. Uh but I

[48:40] grew up in a household where you know my

[48:41] dad was a Jamaican immigrant uh and also

[48:43] a preacher, an apostolic preacher. He

[48:45] was born in the 30s. So very old school

[48:48] uh very angry um very fire and

[48:50] brimstone. And he was very critical of

[48:52] me and my sisters. So I from an early

[48:54] age I internalized a lot of the way he

[48:57] spoke to us. So hearing that I was

[48:59] worthless, hearing um that uh what I was

[49:02] going to do was going to get me sent to

[49:04] hell if I didn't do my my dishes

[49:06] properly, if I didn't do my chores. So

[49:08] for me, I I had that very critical

[49:10] voice. I would beat myself up all the

[49:12] time from a very early age. So it was 9

[49:15] years old was the very first memory of

[49:16] just really wanting to be anyone but who

[49:19] I was.

[49:20] >> Fern, what about you? you and I just

[49:22] want to mention that in your memoir

[49:23] which came out in 2024,

[49:26] >> you talk a lot about your experiences

[49:29] real, very real and raw. Um, grew up in

[49:32] Pworth neighborhood and do do you mind

[49:34] just sharing a little bit about the way

[49:37] you grew up and how you think it

[49:38] affected your sort of trajectory?

[49:42] >> Yeah. Um, [clears throat] going back,

[49:45] yeah, I grew up in Pworth. I my

[49:47] grandparents raised uh me and my six s

[49:50] siblings and my dad always lived around

[49:53] the corner. So whenever I went to I was

[49:54] walking to school, I would see my dad

[49:56] and say, "Hey dad, how you doing?" Uh

[49:58] never spent a day never spent a night

[49:59] with him. He never came to a game or

[50:01] anything like that. All I know knew is

[50:02] that was my dad uh when I would walk

[50:04] around that corner. Um,

[50:07] from there I ended up going to Dumbar

[50:08] Senior High School. And I went to Dumbar

[50:12] because I knew that

[50:14] it made sense for me to go to a school

[50:17] that wasn't in my environment cuz if I

[50:19] went to school in my environment, then I

[50:21] would would have had to help guys and if

[50:24] they were getting if they were fighting

[50:25] someone or um it just wouldn't it just

[50:29] wasn't the right thing for me to do. So

[50:30] I I had to discern it. I knew that I had

[50:33] to go somewhere else and I did. And from

[50:35] Dumbar ended up going to the University

[50:36] of Maryland um because the football and

[50:40] basketball is all I wanted to do.

[50:42] >> And you again you wrote about this in

[50:46] the players tribune. So thank thank you

[50:47] for being so honest about that. You

[50:49] actually

[50:50] >> wound up in a psychiatric ward at one

[50:53] point when you were at at Iowa.

[50:55] >> Yeah. Uh so I was fortunate enough

[50:56] football was also that was my dream.

[50:58] That was all I really wanted to do and

[50:59] that's that's the place I felt alive. I

[51:01] was fortunate enough to uh play at the

[51:03] University of Iowa. Uh but I had a bunch

[51:05] of injuries. My freshman year, I tore my

[51:07] left ACL. A year later, I tore my right

[51:08] ACL. A few months later, I tore my pec.

[51:11] Uh got to play in ' 06, but I broke my

[51:14] right patella and that was the end. But

[51:16] um all my my upbringing and and my

[51:20] injuries feeling like the one thing that

[51:21] made me feel alive was being taken from

[51:23] me, seeing my body fail, I think really

[51:26] pushed me um towards that mental

[51:28] decline. But at 19, I was diagnosed with

[51:31] major depressive disorder with psychotic

[51:32] features. And I spent four weeks in a

[51:35] psych ward. I went through so I

[51:37] initially was in for a week to hopefully

[51:38] stabilize and feel better. And then I I

[51:40] was out for a few days and very quickly

[51:43] realized I need to go back in. And uh my

[51:46] therapist uh at the time told me that

[51:49] ECTs were always an option. So that's uh

[51:51] electrocomvulsive therapy uh shock

[51:54] treatment as a lot of people know it.

[51:55] And that for me was really a last

[51:58] resort. So, I went in for another three

[51:59] weeks and did nine rounds of uh ECTs

[52:03] just hoping like I I knew that this was

[52:06] untenable the way that I was feeling

[52:08] because at the time I was dealing with

[52:10] delusions. I was hearing voices. I I was

[52:13] so depressed that I got to this point of

[52:15] of dealing with psychosis, true

[52:17] psychosis. I had a manic episode, but

[52:19] truly feeling like I was losing my mind.

[52:22] uh and um so I was sent into the

[52:24] hospital went through ECTs and I was on

[52:28] medication for years before that I was

[52:30] on uh an anti-depressant called

[52:31] norripalene and an antiscychotic called

[52:34] resperadol and uh I it really was just I

[52:38] was at a point where this was truly

[52:39] unbearable. the constant delusions, uh,

[52:42] the headaches, the night terrors, it

[52:45] just felt every day like I I woke up

[52:48] with an assault on my mind. And I was

[52:51] fortunate enough that the ECTs didn't

[52:54] erase my depression, but at uh, you

[52:57] know, afterwards when I left the

[52:58] hospital, I got to a point where things

[53:00] felt a little bit more manageable. But

[53:02] yeah, I spent four weeks in a psych ward

[53:04] in college.

[53:05] >> Well, we're glad you're here

[53:06] >> because there's a chance that you would

[53:07] not have been here, right? [applause]

[53:09] AB: Absolutely. And and and I think the

[53:13] the only reason I am here is because I

[53:15] had a defensive line coach in Ron Akin

[53:18] who essentially forced me to go to

[53:19] therapy who who said I I can see

[53:22] something is going wrong with you. You

[53:24] need to see someone. And I'm so grateful

[53:26] that I would have been out on my own. I

[53:28] know I wouldn't be here. So I'm I'm so

[53:29] grateful that I had advocates in my life

[53:32] to to say you need help and it's okay to

[53:35] get help. Mhm.

[53:37] >> And Vernon, you have been really real

[53:39] and raw about the fact that there was a

[53:40] point in your career where you were

[53:42] having panic attacks and how did that

[53:45] how tell would you just tell us about

[53:47] how that started? Yeah. Did you know

[53:49] what was happening to you?

[53:51] >> No, I didn't know. I was um I was I was

[53:53] in I was in bed. I woke up and all I

[53:56] know I was in training camp during the

[53:57] time and I think this was around 201

[54:01] maybe 2011 2012 somewhere around 2011

[54:05] and I woke up my heart was racing

[54:08] >> you know all I'm thinking I'm thinking

[54:09] I'm having a heart attack and then from

[54:12] there it happened several times after

[54:15] after the fact and

[54:18] I just didn't know what was going on and

[54:21] I started getting tested. I'm going to

[54:22] go get my brain scan. and I would go get

[54:23] my my heart scan. I would go to the

[54:25] doctor like every week getting all these

[54:27] different tests trying to figure out

[54:28] what was wrong with me. I thought

[54:29] something was wrong.

[54:30] >> Um it was just it was just the most

[54:32] frightening moment I've had in my life.

[54:34] I mean it was it was oh it was just

[54:38] something that I um every time I think

[54:40] about it I just like wow that was that

[54:42] was stressful.

[54:43] >> How did you figure it out? [sighs]

[54:45] >> Uh gosh I just I research reading and

[54:49] things of that nature because it forced

[54:51] me to read. It forced me to get into my

[54:53] word, get into the Bible, uh read uh

[54:55] self-help books because I was driving

[54:57] home one day and I remember it was it

[55:00] was night was right after practice

[55:01] because I would have these episodes in

[55:03] the game. One time I was I would go sit

[55:05] on the bench, I'm breathing hard. Um I

[55:08] just felt like for a split second that I

[55:09] didn't want to be here. I had nothing to

[55:10] live for.

[55:12] >> It happened so fast and it was just so

[55:13] sudden.

[55:16] >> Just it's just it's just the the

[55:18] feeling. And I remember that feeling.

[55:20] And I and when I got to my house, I said

[55:22] I started breathing, doing my breathing

[55:24] exercise. I hired this yoga coach named

[55:26] Anthony. And Anthony would work with me.

[55:28] He worked with me every what? Every two

[55:32] days about three days a week for an

[55:34] entire year.

[55:35] >> Um because I felt like I was trying to

[55:37] just do everything I could to hold on

[55:39] and to keep myself um in a good uh good

[55:43] mindset, good mental state.

[55:44] >> And to pointed out that he felt part of

[55:46] it was the way he was raised. A man

[55:48] doesn't have those feelings. Did you

[55:50] feel that way? I'm a man. I'm a big man.

[55:52] I'm a strong man. I can't have these

[55:54] feelings. Did you feel that way?

[55:56] >> At the time, I was so vulnerable. I

[55:58] didn't I was just trying to really

[56:01] figure out what was going on with me

[56:03] >> cuz it was it was it was tough.

[56:06] >> What What made it okay to talk about?

[56:08] Because I can imagine where

[56:10] >> um you know, one of the things that

[56:12] fascinates me about professional sports

[56:13] is you have no medical privacy. Mhm.

[56:15] >> You know, like the rest of us, you know,

[56:17] whenever you go to the doctor, if you go

[56:19] to the hospital, you got to sign a form,

[56:20] a HIPPO form saying that we can't tell

[56:22] your business without your permission.

[56:24] If we tell your business, they tell your

[56:26] business every week. They tell your

[56:28] business every week. Like who what you

[56:29] feel like you have the flu or you have

[56:31] this or you have you have an injury that

[56:33] you have no medical privacy. So, I can

[56:35] understand where

[56:37] >> something like that you would not want

[56:40] to share. And I just wonder what made it

[56:42] okay to share. And at what point were

[56:44] you able to share that this was what was

[56:46] going on with her?

[56:47] >> Um,

[56:50] I think I would I think I was okay

[56:52] sharing it. Gosh, that's a good

[56:54] question. Let me think.

[56:57] Maybe after. So, the first time I

[57:00] experienced the death of my family was

[57:01] when my granddad died in 2019. I think I

[57:03] felt comfortable talking about it then

[57:05] and and I felt really comfortable

[57:08] talking about it when

[57:10] um my mom died and then my brother and

[57:14] sister died.

[57:15] >> So my brother and sister my brother died

[57:17] April of 2024. He was the closest person

[57:20] to me in my life. He played 10 years in

[57:23] the NFL. He was like

[57:24] >> You remember Vonte Davis, right? He was

[57:26] a superstar. So yeah, like you

[57:28] >> mental health um issues that he suffered

[57:31] from. Same as my sister. She was 28. She

[57:33] died a month after him. So I had to turn

[57:34] around and do everything all over again

[57:37] month later. So that was tough. So after

[57:38] that, I said, you know what? I have to

[57:40] be able to talk about this stuff because

[57:42] there's some there's people out there

[57:43] who are going through the same thing

[57:44] that I'm that I went through to need

[57:46] help. They just need to hear that

[57:48] there's someone else out there that went

[57:50] that's going through the same thing that

[57:51] they're going through. [clears throat]

[57:53] >> What about you? What made it what made

[57:55] it possible for you to share these

[57:58] thoughts and feelings with with other

[58:00] people especially to be so I mean you've

[58:02] given a TED talk. I mean it's like and

[58:04] and clearly there's a book that has to

[58:07] come. So clearly there's a

[58:09] >> book coming in February. I carried so

[58:11] much shame for so long. If if anyone

[58:14] ever knew I was in a psych ward I just

[58:16] felt like I would be laughed at or

[58:18] dismissed. It wasn't until so I knew I

[58:21] was still I get out of uh the hospital,

[58:24] I carry on with my life and I'm able to

[58:25] have this um career that I'm really

[58:27] proud of in wrestling, but I would still

[58:29] describe myself as someone who was quite

[58:30] depressed and and I even though I was

[58:32] this very jovial, fun-loving character

[58:35] on TV. I still struggled with suicidal

[58:37] ideiations. But for me, it was when

[58:40] lockdowns happened in 2020. I I knew

[58:44] that if I didn't substantively address

[58:48] what was going on inside of me, all of

[58:50] that isolation, because I I had a house

[58:52] in the Tampa area at the time. I lived

[58:54] alone and we were still shooting our

[58:56] shows for WWE, but they were all local.

[58:58] So, they're all Orlando, Tampa, St.

[59:00] Pete. So, I wasn't getting on planes. I

[59:02] wasn't having to. So, I was home alone

[59:05] every single day. And I knew with all

[59:07] that isolation that if I didn't address

[59:09] what was going on inside of me that I

[59:11] wasn't going to make it out of of

[59:13] lockdowns. So, uh I am so grateful I had

[59:16] a friend who suggested uh mindfulness

[59:18] and meditation. And uh she suggested an

[59:21] app and I I dabbled with it in 2019, but

[59:23] I always had an excuse. But in 2020 when

[59:26] when lockdowns happened, I said, "No

[59:27] more excuses. You have all the time in

[59:29] the world. Do it even for just 10

[59:31] minutes a day."

[59:32] >> That's wonderful. Questions? Anybody

[59:33] have questions for these brothers? Come

[59:35] on [applause] up.

[59:37] Paul's gonna bring you Phil's gonna

[59:38] bring you up. Come on.

[59:42] While while she gets set. Anybody else?

[59:44] Anybody else have a question? So we know

[59:45] where we're going next. So there's a

[59:47] question over here. Next on this side

[59:49] after that.

[59:52] >> Hi, my name is Destiny Colar, current

[59:54] master of social work student at Howard.

[59:56] I'm interested in sports social work and

[59:58] athlete mental health performance. I was

[60:00] wondering on the collegiate level and

[60:01] the professional level, do you guys feel

[60:03] as if you were provided with resources

[60:04] to deal with your mental health crisis?

[60:07] And if not, what are some better things

[60:09] to support that?

[60:11] >> Why don't you start?

[60:12] >> Good question. And you said last

[60:14] question you said, were we provided with

[60:16] enough resources to deal with mental?

[60:17] >> Yeah.

[60:18] >> Are you saying like within like the uh

[60:20] the

[60:21] >> like within your respective team, NFL,

[60:23] WWE?

[60:24] >> Um, yes. I I feel like they they're they

[60:27] always have therapists there to help you

[60:29] if you if you need help, but a lot of

[60:31] times they don't people sometimes they

[60:33] can't really understand what you're

[60:35] going through. When I was playing

[60:37] football, I didn't feel like they gave

[60:39] me a therapist, but I don't think they

[60:40] knew the uh severity of what it was.

[60:44] Like it was it was tough. Like even

[60:46] sitting I remember sitting back there in

[60:47] those meetings and just just heart

[60:51] racing just nervous, scared, afraid. Um,

[60:54] but yeah, I feel like they they try

[60:56] their best to give you everything that

[60:58] you need, but it could be.

[61:01] >> Is it But is it forgive me? Is it about

[61:04] making you better or is it making you

[61:07] perform better?

[61:13] >> That's deep. Somebody said they trying

[61:15] to get their money's worth. Uh, yeah,

[61:18] you're right. Uh, gosh, that's deep. I

[61:20] think it's about making us perform

[61:22] better. You're right. I I didn't even

[61:23] think of it like that. But

[61:25] >> maybe I did think of it like that.

[61:27] >> Could it have been why they didn't you

[61:28] didn't really share because it wasn't

[61:31] really

[61:31] >> right. I was I kind of protected myself

[61:33] in a sense because I didn't want them to

[61:34] know everything that was going on with

[61:36] me. They say, "Hey, Vernon is going

[61:37] through these things." So maybe he's not

[61:40] a great fit for this team anymore. Maybe

[61:42] we should get rid of him.

[61:44] >> So I kind of protected myself. Couldn't

[61:45] tell her everything.

[61:47] >> And what about you? Cuz I uh

[61:50] [clears throat] I learned a lot about

[61:51] your sport. really just [laughter] from

[61:53] following your career. Um, I didn't

[61:55] realize, forget I know, I'm sorry. I

[61:57] know that's me, but how much goes into

[61:59] it in terms of the preparation and it's

[62:01] not just about the athleticism, it's

[62:03] about the character that you're playing,

[62:06] >> but it's you're acting, right? You're

[62:08] acting

[62:09] >> and [clears throat] but

[62:13] do they care if you're okay? Like, do

[62:15] you is there any way you have to take

[62:16] care of yourself in that context? I I I

[62:18] will say so actually I uh I broke my

[62:21] neck in three places uh in 2022

[62:26] which ended my career. That's the last

[62:28] time I ever wrestled. I broke my C1 in

[62:29] two places and I broke my C6. And I'm

[62:32] very fortunate to escape surgery.

[62:35] Honestly, I had the doctor when I got to

[62:36] the hospital told me, uh you narrowly

[62:38] avoided stroke, paralysis, and death.

[62:41] We're all very much on the table. You

[62:42] know, it's your C1. So, I I will say

[62:44] when that happened, um, credit to the

[62:46] WWE, they did offer a therapist. Um,

[62:49] even even I didn't say I was struggling

[62:51] or anything. As soon as that happened,

[62:53] they reached out and they said they'd

[62:55] like to connect me. And this at this

[62:56] point, you know, mindfulness and

[62:57] meditation had really been helping me.

[62:58] And initially, I thought, you know, I'm

[63:00] in a good place. I'm I'm fine. And then

[63:01] I said, you know what, that I'm

[63:03] navigating a a lot right now. Uh, so let

[63:06] yes, I will. And they connected me with

[63:08] a great therapist. And a lot of it was

[63:10] uh via the phone, but uh I really

[63:12] enjoyed just having that sounding board

[63:14] and being able to talk about what I was

[63:16] going through be ending a career,

[63:18] transitioning into a broadcasting career

[63:19] with WWE. And and for me, there were so

[63:22] many times where I felt like if I wasn't

[63:24] doing this, I I I don't know what I'd be

[63:26] doing with my life. This is this is the

[63:27] thing that keeps me going. Um but I'm so

[63:30] grateful that I was able to work through

[63:31] it. But they did provide those

[63:32] resources. And and in college, I was

[63:35] very grateful to have had uh an

[63:37] assistant coach, my defensive line

[63:38] coach, who who said, "You need to see

[63:39] someone." But we didn't necessar

[63:45] therapists. This is how we do things. I

[63:47] don't know if those resources were

[63:48] available for anyone else on the team.

[63:51] Um so I think having a system in place

[63:54] where everyone knows if you're

[63:56] struggling, this is where you can go, I

[63:58] I think would be so vitally important.

[63:59] So normalizing it, making it normal,

[64:01] like they know where the nutritionist

[64:03] is, right? Right. But they don't know

[64:04] where the therapist is, right? Okay.

[64:06] Gosh, R, do you feel like um other guys

[64:08] are going through some of the things

[64:10] that you went through with and just

[64:12] haven't been able to talk about it? And

[64:14] I wonder and I also wonder, you know,

[64:16] the NFL is 75% black in terms of the

[64:18] players, not in terms of the coaching or

[64:20] the owners, but the players. And I just

[64:21] wonder if you think that that's part of

[64:23] an impediment to in that, you know,

[64:27] you've got the players over here. I I I

[64:29] just sort of wonder if there's something

[64:30] about the fact that

[64:32] >> the people who are in charge of your

[64:36] life

[64:38] don't have the same experience that you

[64:40] have. And I wonder if that's an

[64:41] impediment to getting the help that you

[64:43] need.

[64:43] >> Um yeah, that's a I think a lot of

[64:48] people are going through some of the

[64:49] same things that I dealt with and I

[64:52] watched my brother go through it. Um,

[64:54] and he used to always tell me, he's

[64:56] like, he [clears throat] was like,

[64:57] "Vern, I I I" He's like, "Bro, I can't

[65:00] I'm not telling these people all my

[65:01] business because they they they just

[65:03] they they they're not for me."

[65:05] >> You know, he used to talk about it all

[65:06] the time. And I just I've watched him

[65:09] self-destruct.

[65:10] And there was nothing I could tell him

[65:14] or say to him. I I I tried, but I knew

[65:17] where he was headed, but it just wasn't

[65:19] nothing I could do. I mean, he went from

[65:21] this totally

[65:23] great guy who just changed. I mean, like

[65:26] everything from the DUI found on the

[65:29] side of the road. I mean, you can look

[65:30] it up. His car was totally he didn't

[65:31] have a scratch on his body.

[65:33] >> Um,

[65:35] and just like h it's just it's tough cuz

[65:39] these guys, they all there's so many

[65:41] stories we can look at.

[65:42] >> We can look at guys from locking

[65:44] themselves in the hotel and drinking

[65:45] themselves to death. Um there was a guy

[65:48] in the NFL who did that. But there's a

[65:50] lot of different stories these guys the

[65:52] correlation is there from these guys

[65:54] getting done with the game of football

[65:55] and all of a sudden they're they're

[65:57] ready to take their life or they just

[65:58] lose their discipline.

[66:00] >> And and I'm I'm glad you addressed that

[66:02] too because I think a lot of us football

[66:05] was my dream and when football was over

[66:07] I I didn't know who I was. I I struggled

[66:10] so much and I didn't I thought this was

[66:12] >> something that was individual to me and

[66:14] then I would talk to teammates who who

[66:16] got to have careers in the league who

[66:17] got to play several years in the league

[66:19] and they would have the same struggles

[66:20] when football was over

[66:22] >> that like you especially so many of us I

[66:24] started playing tackle football at 7

[66:25] years old which I don't think is good

[66:26] for your brain health at all I wouldn't

[66:27] recommend but so many of us we we start

[66:29] from such a young age this is this is

[66:32] our connection to the world we get our

[66:34] praise here we we feel this is our

[66:37] identity and when that's gone on when

[66:39] that's taken from you, whether whether

[66:41] you get to have a great career and

[66:42] retire, you know, you can have a 15 year

[66:45] career in the in the NFL, you you're

[66:46] still in your 30s, you you you're still

[66:48] young. There's still a lot of life left.

[66:50] >> And this idea of of who am I now that

[66:52] this thing that was all of me that I

[66:54] poured so much of me into who am I now?

[66:56] And I think that that I think I found in

[66:58] entertainment, in sports, that's

[67:00] something that a lot of us battle with.

[67:02] when when that thing you love that you

[67:03] poured so much of yourself into is gone,

[67:06] feeling like you're you have no purpose

[67:08] anymore.

[67:09] >> Wow.

[67:09] >> Yeah.

[67:10] >> Yeah.

[67:11] >> Good evening. Thank you so much for um

[67:14] opening up and sharing so much of the

[67:16] vulnerability of the struggle. I would

[67:19] like to know if you can describe

[67:22] what does that fragility look like on

[67:26] the other side on your everyday now?

[67:29] Because right now I'm seeing two very

[67:32] successful persons who have put a lot of

[67:35] effort. But what does it look like on

[67:37] the daytoday

[67:39] >> so that people who are listening to you

[67:42] right now can feel like oh this is what

[67:44] it can look like if I can cross over

[67:47] that bridge.

[67:49] >> Yeah. You want to take it first?

[67:50] >> Yeah. Um so for me uh I meditate every

[67:53] day. Uh every morning uh I I meditate

[67:56] and it's something that I will do the

[67:57] rest of my life. I treat it much like

[67:59] the gym. And I think a lot of I've

[68:00] talked to a lot of people who meditate,

[68:02] they'll start and they'll stop. And uh

[68:05] but I I think of it much like the gym.

[68:06] Like to expect to walk into the gym two

[68:08] or three times and bench 400 lb is is a

[68:11] little silly. Like you need to put that

[68:12] consistent work in. So for me that

[68:14] that's something that I will regularly

[68:15] do. Um I I also will even even little

[68:19] things like I'm a big believer in

[68:20] carrying my practice with me as well. So

[68:22] if I find myself feeling anxious or lost

[68:24] in thought, I will count my breaths. I

[68:27] will count my steps. Uh so that's really

[68:30] important for me. I also find so much

[68:32] value in community. Uh I I need other

[68:35] people around me. I need to feel and it

[68:37] doesn't always have to be people who who

[68:38] are going through similar things or we

[68:39] don't necessarily all have to talk about

[68:41] that, but just feeling like as someone

[68:43] who I was always running from family. I

[68:46] I couldn't wait to get out of my house

[68:47] when I was younger. I isolated a lot. um

[68:50] isolated from my sisters, from my mom,

[68:52] and uh I didn't realize how much damage

[68:55] that had done over time. But now being

[68:57] able to lean on community and and

[68:59] connect with others is really important

[69:01] for me. And and just not being afraid to

[69:05] talk about feelings, having I have

[69:07] friends in my life who who I other men

[69:10] who I can talk about vulnerability, who

[69:11] I can talk about openness. So all these

[69:13] like it's a real diet I think for my

[69:16] mental health because I know it's very

[69:17] easy to backslide. I think if I just

[69:20] were to stop and think I'm good. I I can

[69:21] go on forever and be fine,

[69:23] >> I I don't trust that to hold. So, for

[69:25] me, it's just important to continue to

[69:27] have that diet of mindfulness, uh,

[69:29] meditation, and and if I I need I was in

[69:31] therapy for years after I broke my neck.

[69:33] Uh, and my therapist ended up

[69:35] transitioning out, but I I'm very quick

[69:37] to jump back into therapy if I feel I

[69:39] need it.

[69:40] >> Bernard, what about you? What's made a

[69:42] difference for you? and and you have

[69:45] that I mean you have a whole other life

[69:47] acting,

[69:48] >> producing

[69:50] um raising a family. Um what do you

[69:53] think made a difference for you and sort

[69:55] of finding healing and wholeness on the

[69:57] other side?

[69:59] >> Yeah, [clears throat] that's that's

[69:59] that's a deep question because um

[70:02] similar to you, I meditate as well. I

[70:05] love meditating every single day. I try

[70:07] to read something positive every single

[70:09] day. Um,

[70:12] I'm in the I I read my Bible every

[70:14] single day. I just take life slow. I

[70:18] just I just move slow. Every day I get

[70:20] up, I make sure that I'm a that I'm a

[70:23] great human being.

[70:24] >> And I tell myself that.

[70:26] >> Um, if you have likability, you have

[70:28] possibility.

[70:30] >> And as long as we It's all about My

[70:32] grandmother used to say this all the

[70:33] time. I remember when we were walking

[70:35] down the street when I was a kid, she

[70:36] would tell me, she said, "Be nice to

[70:37] that homeless guy out there because, you

[70:38] know, that might be God's God sending an

[70:40] angel down to observe you."

[70:42] >> So, it's all about how we treat people

[70:44] is all everyone is going through things

[70:47] and we have to continue to understand

[70:49] that everyone has something they're

[70:50] going through every single day. So, just

[70:52] because someone maybe get loud at you or

[70:54] or

[70:56] something like that, you you always have

[70:58] keep the the the fruit of the spirit

[71:01] which is peace, love, joy, patience, and

[71:02] kindness. as long as you keep that, you

[71:05] you'll be on the right track. So, just

[71:07] making sure that I'm a good great human

[71:08] being. Um

[71:11] uh just slowing down, slowing life down

[71:13] and um yeah, and just meditating and

[71:17] being at peace.

[71:19] >> You know, it's interesting because many

[71:20] people who they follow your career, they

[71:22] remember that famous incident. you wrote

[71:24] about it in the book and in fact your

[71:26] your coach Mike Singleary he actually

[71:28] wrote the forward to your book wrote

[71:30] about the fact he actually put you on

[71:32] blast at a press conference after the

[71:34] game he said we can't coach with you

[71:37] don't get along with anybody and I'm not

[71:39] going to have this and people were like

[71:40] oh my god hey they put him on blast

[71:42] after the game and he actually wrote the

[71:44] forward for your book so you obviously

[71:46] kind of cut through it you were really

[71:48] angry like all the time you were like

[71:50] fighting with your teammates do you

[71:52] think in hindsight that That was maybe a

[71:55] manifestation of depression that people

[71:56] just saw as something else as you just

[71:58] having a bad attitude.

[72:03] >> Yeah. Now that you say that, I didn't

[72:04] even look at like look at it like that.

[72:06] But that could be a form of depression.

[72:08] I was very I was really angry and I was

[72:11] Yeah, I was depressed. I was upset

[72:13] because of my upbringing. I was upset

[72:15] that my mom and dad never showed up. I

[72:17] was upset that a lot of my family

[72:20] members were still using drugs and not

[72:22] telling me. And uh I found out that my

[72:25] biological granddad was an artist and I

[72:28] became an artist

[72:30] >> in college and didn't even know that my

[72:31] granddad was an artist. Um so I switched

[72:34] my major. So just a lot I felt like a

[72:36] lot of people lied and felt like a lot

[72:37] of people let me down

[72:39] >> and I was always angry because of that.

[72:42] I didn't know how to channel my

[72:43] emotions. I had to learn

[72:45] >> Vernon Davis Yuan Big E. Thank you both

[72:49] so much.

[72:51] [applause]

[72:58] [music]

[72:59] [applause]

[73:05] [music]

[73:08] >> Dr. Paul Neestat, we've already met you.

[73:09] psychiatrist at Johns Hopkins, one of

[73:12] our leading experts on suicide, one of

[73:14] our leading national experts, and the

[73:17] Reverend Dr. Johnny Parker is the

[73:20] director of the Hope Counseling and

[73:22] Coaching Center at First Baptist Church

[73:24] of Glenn Arden International. It's one

[73:26] of the largest churches in the

[73:28] Washington metropolitan area uh with

[73:31] campuses, several campuses and with I

[73:34] think congregants really all over the

[73:36] world and a very robust uh

[73:40] an incredible what 20 ministries and

[73:44] including a very robust counseling

[73:45] ministry.

[73:46] >> 130 ministries.

[73:47] >> 130. Oh, excuse me.

[73:48] >> Just a little bit.

[73:48] >> Just a little bit. So, thank you. Thank

[73:50] you for being here.

[73:53] [applause]

[73:56] All right, I'm just going to go right

[73:57] there with you, Dr. Parker. Do faith

[73:59] communities help or hurt?

[74:01] >> We've gotten better. Definitely the

[74:03] number there's not a lot of good data in

[74:04] terms of the number of churches that

[74:06] have counseling ministries, but the

[74:09] stigma, I mean, for sure the the the I'm

[74:14] hearing more bishops, archbishops,

[74:16] ministers who are talking about having

[74:18] their own therapists. There's language

[74:20] that Jesus plus therapy equals wellness.

[74:24] And so the language has changed the

[74:26] stigma, but now true that

[74:29] African-Americans, we still go to our

[74:31] faith center for our first place of

[74:33] getting therapy and getting wellness. We

[74:35] not may not call it therapy, but we go

[74:36] there to get when we're having problems

[74:38] internally or emotionally or

[74:39] spiritually. We still seek that out. So,

[74:42] um, but again, there's not a large

[74:44] amount of data to show what's happening

[74:47] in terms of churches that have profound

[74:49] coaching or counseling ministries like

[74:51] what we've been able to do at at our

[74:53] place.

[74:53] >> What one of the reasons we were

[74:54] delighted to have you is that you were

[74:56] on staff in ministry staff at First

[74:58] Baptist Linard. You also have a private

[75:00] practice in coaching individuals to sort

[75:02] of reach their full potential. Um, and I

[75:05] think I also your wife is also a

[75:07] counselor and I think you probably

[75:08] >> Yes, she's a life coach. She's a life

[75:10] coach. And

[75:11] >> so I guess the question I have is what

[75:13] are what are you seeing?

[75:15] >> What I'm seeing is this that in

[75:17] particularly in the African-American

[75:18] community over the years, the sense of

[75:20] belonging amongst young black men has

[75:24] lessened the has begun to thin out

[75:26] somewhat the attachment. We had that in

[75:29] the church community. We had that in

[75:30] family reunions. We had that even in my

[75:32] family. My my mom and dad divorced when

[75:34] I was 9 years old. There was my

[75:36] grandparents who stepped right in. We

[75:37] had we had access to all that. Even

[75:39] people who weren't family were family.

[75:41] So you had this community. You had these

[75:44] real real connections. Over time, what's

[75:47] happened is we've had less of that.

[75:49] We've had um uh the the the rise of

[75:53] social media, which I'm not poo pooing

[75:54] it. It's important in AI. People who

[75:57] have many many contacts but not

[76:00] connections. It's been talked about also

[76:03] the the aggravation in terms of the race

[76:06] and uh microaggressions,

[76:08] macroaggressions and the stress around

[76:10] race. I have three sons. I had to have

[76:12] the conversation with my son in 2020. He

[76:15] was going to predominately white area

[76:16] and I said, "Son, you can't wear that.

[76:19] You can't wear the hoodie." And it broke

[76:21] my heart as a father that I had to have

[76:23] the conversation. People see, as I say,

[76:26] and they know I wrote a book called

[76:27] Front Stage, Backstage. They see your

[76:28] front stage, your external. They don't

[76:30] know the goodness of your heart

[76:31] backstage. And so for that reason, you

[76:34] can't wear the hoodie. Put on one of my

[76:36] uniforms. Put on one of my golf shirts.

[76:39] >> But the sense of that the world is

[76:41] against you.

[76:41] >> Absolutely. Is punishing. Absolutely.

[76:43] It's punishing. It's like a psychic sort

[76:45] of trauma. The other question though, I

[76:46] have to say that one of the reasons that

[76:48] sometimes people see faith communities

[76:49] as more harmful than helpful is the

[76:51] stigma attached to people who have

[76:53] questions about their sexual

[76:54] orientation. M

[76:55] >> sometimes they find their faith

[76:57] community punishing to the point where

[76:58] and look you know we're adults right so

[77:01] you know if somebody's mean to us

[77:02] there's somebody else in our life you're

[77:04] 14 15 16 12 and you have these questions

[77:06] about yourself and your only universe

[77:08] tells you there's something wrong with

[77:09] you

[77:12] >> don't you think that plays a role

[77:13] >> well what we want to do and again where

[77:15] I think the faith community can really

[77:18] and has I I think has gotten better and

[77:20] continue to get better is this we have

[77:22] three core real real needs we all have a

[77:24] need to be seen We all have a need to be

[77:26] heard. We all have a need to be known.

[77:27] When we're heard, seen, and known, it

[77:29] equals love. So, we need to create space

[77:31] for that. It's also important for

[77:34] wellness to happen. There needs to be a

[77:36] real vulnerability because even going

[77:38] back to black males, so many, it's so

[77:41] different for you, so different for many

[77:42] of the women in the room. A little girl

[77:43] can fall down, scrape her knee, she's

[77:45] expected to cry.

[77:47] >> The men know where I'm going. A man, a

[77:49] boy seven years old can break his leg.

[77:51] He's shamed.

[77:52] >> Be a soldier.

[77:52] >> You Yeah, exactly. Soldier up, man up.

[77:54] He's seven years old and so he has this

[77:57] deep emotional injury. So now he's 22

[77:59] and you ask him what is he feeling? He

[78:01] hasn't had a feeling since 1972. He

[78:03] doesn't know what he's feeling. Uh the

[78:04] only and the only emotion that he's

[78:06] allowed to admit is anger.

[78:08] >> You put the word D in front of anger, it

[78:10] spells danger.

[78:10] >> You know the thing that sort of I find

[78:12] so frustrating about this is what does

[78:13] the Bible say? The Bible says Jesus

[78:15] wept.

[78:15] >> Exactly.

[78:16] >> So why is it that our scriptures tell us

[78:21] that Jesus had all these feelings? And

[78:22] I'm only picking the I'm I'm choosing

[78:24] the Christian Bible because that's the

[78:25] one I know. But other faith traditions

[78:27] understand that there's a whole range of

[78:28] human emotions. How did it happen that

[78:31] then that became antithetical to our

[78:33] understanding of being a man?

[78:34] >> Oh, the scriptures we know as black

[78:36] people especially, the scriptures have

[78:37] been so misused to support so many

[78:41] craziness, so much craziness. So, so

[78:44] that's that's nothing new under the sun

[78:45] with that. But I'll say this, you have a

[78:48] writer named David in the Old Testament

[78:51] who's often very transparent about his

[78:54] emotions. He's very, he says in one

[78:57] place, "My soul, why are you disturbed

[78:59] within me? Hope in God." And this is a

[79:01] guy who we know the story about David

[79:03] and Goliath. But but the emotions,

[79:05] you're right, the emotionality that's

[79:07] there. So don't blame that on let's not

[79:10] blame on the Bible. That's how man

[79:12] misconstrued Jesus and took Jesus. But

[79:14] the wellness that the Bible talks about

[79:16] is our vulnerability with ourselves.

[79:19] Even in my own struggle, Vernon talked

[79:20] about it. I do a lot of work with

[79:22] proathletes. I [snorts] I had my own

[79:24] battle with panic attacks and and uh and

[79:26] oh yeah, I had my own battle with panic

[79:27] attacks and depression. And so the

[79:29] wellness is this. I we were made to be

[79:32] vulnerable with ourselves, vulnerable

[79:34] with safe people. We talk about this in

[79:37] in my book front directly about the idea

[79:39] you have to you have to be able to give

[79:40] an access pass to people who earn the

[79:42] right to hear your story. Everyone's not

[79:44] safe and a vulnerability with God. I

[79:46] have to be vulnerable vulnerable with

[79:48] God about what's going on in my heart

[79:50] and soul because that's where the story

[79:51] is happening and the story that I'm

[79:53] telling myself. I got to be vulnerable

[79:55] with myself about what is going on soul.

[79:58] Why are you disturbed within me?

[79:59] Vulnerable with safe people. Even a

[80:01] quick story this Michelle in my marriage

[80:04] when I was battling and I'm in this

[80:05] space I was really bad with this panic

[80:08] attack stuff I whenever I felt

[80:10] claustrophobic I'm seeing a psychiatrist

[80:12] whenever I felt claustrophobic

[80:14] um whenever I felt it would trigger in a

[80:17] panic attack and for a long time I

[80:19] couldn't even tell the story without

[80:20] getting emotional I had to tell my wife

[80:22] and I'm a Brooklyn guy you know I would

[80:24] say hey we don't do vulnerability in

[80:26] Brooklyn okay I'm from Brooklyn from

[80:28] Brooklyn exactly we don't we don't do

[80:29] that in we don't do we don't go there?

[80:31] Well, I had to go there because I had to

[80:33] tell my wife I needed her to fly with

[80:35] me. I needed her to go to the dentist

[80:37] with me because whenever I would go to

[80:39] the dentist and I felt confined, it

[80:41] would trigger attack. But this is where

[80:43] the vulnerability was powerful because

[80:45] the difference between transparency and

[80:46] vulnerability. Transparency is

[80:48] disclosure. Vulnerability is exposure.

[80:52] Okay? And I had to tell my wife, I

[80:54] needed you to go to ditches with me. And

[80:56] I never saw that model as a black man. I

[80:59] grew up in domestic violence. I never

[81:00] saw that model. But when my wife, my

[81:03] Jamaica sensation wife sitting here,

[81:05] when she would hold my hand, I would not

[81:07] have a tra panic attack

[81:08] >> because it goes back to we need we need

[81:11] to be touched. We need the attachment.

[81:13] We need human attachment

[81:16] and to be well. Vulnerability with self,

[81:18] vulnerability with God, vulnerability

[81:21] with safe people, people who've earned

[81:22] the right to go into the backstage of

[81:25] your heart.

[81:26] >> Oh, beautiful. Thank you, Dr. Nuts. Do

[81:29] you have a Reverend uh Parker was

[81:31] telling us that there isn't a lot of

[81:32] data on whether faith community

[81:35] connection does make a difference? Do

[81:37] you know does it does it is it help is

[81:39] it protective or is it destructive or is

[81:41] it some of each? What do you think?

[81:42] >> There are there are actually some good

[81:44] studies. Um I think the one that comes

[81:45] to mind quickly for me is just earlier

[81:47] this year um there was a Cynthia

[81:49] Fontineella study with my colleague

[81:50] Andrea Young and John Campo. looked at

[81:52] um specifically among young black

[81:54] Americans, what were the things that

[81:56] predicted dying by suicide versus not?

[81:58] They were looking at a population they

[81:59] got from the Medicare data set and they

[82:00] found there were some risk factors that

[82:02] weren't surprising. But one thing that

[82:04] was interesting was that young men and

[82:07] women who came from communities that had

[82:09] a higher density of religious

[82:10] institutions, more churches, um had a

[82:13] lower risk of suicide, about 30% lower

[82:15] risk of suicide. Now that's sort of

[82:17] community level. That's not about the

[82:18] individual relationship. That's a hard

[82:19] thing to study as you said like what

[82:21] does that do? But that is a is a cue and

[82:24] we've we've often seen religion as

[82:26] protective in most cases. It's sort of

[82:28] acknowledged as a protective factor in

[82:29] suicide although again it's hard to

[82:31] really prove but we see it we see it

[82:33] again and again because there's that

[82:35] evidence. There's great programs out

[82:37] there. Your program is fantastic. Um

[82:39] there's other programs that come out of

[82:40] academia. I um really want to mention

[82:43] Dennis Antoine's program. He's at

[82:44] Hopkins. him and Dan Hail have a program

[82:47] called the Cong Congressional Depression

[82:48] Awareness Program. And what they

[82:50] basically do is go into churches and

[82:51] other places of worship. Um, and they

[82:53] educate. They bring sort of ex I've done

[82:56] talks for them. They bring experts, but

[82:57] they also sort of work with the pastors,

[82:59] they work with the congregations.

[83:00] Started in Baltimore, but now it's much

[83:01] bigger. And it's the feedback they get

[83:03] is fantastic because this is how you

[83:05] reach people. This is where people are.

[83:06] You go where they are. You don't want

[83:07] them to show up in the ER. So those guys

[83:09] do amazing work. Um, I did a project

[83:12] with the Air Force a long time ago. um

[83:14] because in the Air Force they were

[83:15] having a problem with suicide. Um and

[83:17] they were interested to see how they

[83:18] could reach their airmen. Um and one

[83:21] thing that became clear to me as someone

[83:22] who doesn't have a military background

[83:23] in the first few meetings at the

[83:24] Pentagon, it was clear that the airmen,

[83:27] the people they trust are not the

[83:29] psychiatrists and therapists in the Air

[83:31] Force, it's the clergy. Um the clergy in

[83:33] the Air Force have a whole separate

[83:35] record system kept on a separate server

[83:37] to keep it clandestine. So the the

[83:39] airmen knew they could say something to

[83:41] those clergy and it wouldn't you know

[83:43] cost them their clearance or something

[83:44] like that. So this was a powerful way of

[83:46] reaching people. Um you know religion is

[83:48] clearly something that can play a really

[83:50] healing role, a really helpful role.

[83:52] >> So any other questions? Anybody else

[83:54] have any other questions for our guests?

[83:57] There's one question back there. I think

[83:59] we're going to take that one question

[84:01] and then we're going to go to takeaways.

[84:03] I'm going to ask you to leave us with

[84:05] some takeaways and Robin Parker, I'm

[84:08] going to ask you to give us a final word

[84:10] of hope because you're in the hope

[84:11] business. So, there's a question back

[84:13] there. Do you see where Oh, okay. Great.

[84:16] >> Hi. Thank you both so much for this. I'm

[84:18] really enjoying it. I'm a therapist and

[84:19] a nurse researcher uh on trauma informed

[84:22] care and we've been talking about um

[84:26] black male and I'm seeing this in my

[84:28] population of clients that I see. One,

[84:30] you mentioned the impulsivity of it.

[84:33] what can we do to address the impulsive

[84:35] nature of it? I heard uh the athletes

[84:37] especially talk about um using

[84:41] meditation and yoga and so it just

[84:44] brings to mind this piece about

[84:45] emotional regulation and how we do that.

[84:48] So I'm just curious what what what would

[84:50] we do to address that impulsive nature?

[84:52] >> It's such a great question because it

[84:54] really is an important risk factor. So I

[84:56] would sort of address it from two

[84:57] angles. One is that it's hard to tell

[85:00] someone to be less impulsive. But it's

[85:02] true that things like meditation do seem

[85:04] to calm that sympathetic nervous system.

[85:06] You can address impulsivity there. But I

[85:08] think maybe more importantly what I

[85:10] focus on in recognizing the research on

[85:12] impulsivity is that that provides an

[85:14] opportunity to intervene in a successful

[85:16] way. So if you recognize suicide as

[85:18] often, not always, but often a very

[85:20] impulsive act, you focus on making the

[85:23] environment safer.

[85:24] >> Reverend Dr. Johnny Parker, give us some

[85:26] takeaways and would you just leave us

[85:28] with a final word?

[85:29] >> Sure. I think it's important to

[85:32] understand all of us in here, our lives

[85:34] are all telling a story and I think I

[85:37] like to frame that is that that story as

[85:39] a front stage and a backstage growing up

[85:40] in New York going to the theater

[85:42] district, you have this external part

[85:44] that we all see. We see your agenda. We

[85:46] see your sexuality. We see your your uh

[85:49] your career. We see we we see you. We

[85:51] see your, you know, the things that are

[85:53] true, your performance, your

[85:54] productivity, hires you up on social

[85:55] media, and that's a big deal. Technical,

[85:58] all that stuff is a big deal. I would

[86:00] say the bigger deal is what's happening

[86:02] on your backstage. That's the story with

[86:04] the deepest part of who we are in terms

[86:06] of our soul. Who am I? What do I want?

[86:08] Why do I want it? Who am I becoming? We

[86:10] don't bump into better. We don't wander

[86:12] the wellness. I think it's important

[86:13] that I think it's also important as I

[86:15] said about the vulnerability that we how

[86:17] do we embrace particularly for us as

[86:19] men. Vulnerability means capable of

[86:21] being wounded. And the way that it's

[86:23] been defined for particularly

[86:24] African-Americans and African-American

[86:25] males, how we interpret that has done a

[86:28] lot of damage and harm. And so being

[86:30] able to so I seek to model and share

[86:32] what I shared here on social media. I

[86:35] tell my story. So because I see where

[86:37] men sit like this and they go like this.

[86:40] Oh, this is a real one. I can identify

[86:42] with that guy. And so I think that's

[86:44] really important that the backstage, the

[86:46] Bible would say, guard your heart. heart

[86:49] in the scriptures is the way is the is

[86:50] is the head internal headquarters the

[86:52] will emotion and the thoughts guard your

[86:55] heart how with all diligence it's hard

[86:57] work it's hard work it's worth the work

[86:58] but we got to do the work work of the

[87:00] heart guard your heart with all

[87:02] diligence but out of it flow the issues

[87:04] of life it's all of this stuff it's my

[87:07] work it's my family it's my faith it's

[87:09] my fitness it's my it's it's all the

[87:11] stuff on the front stage but it all

[87:13] starts with my story and your story on

[87:16] the backstage everyone has a story.

[87:18] Every story has a name and every story

[87:21] and every name matters

[87:23] >> to Jesus and to God.

[87:25] >> Thank you.

[87:27] [applause]

[87:30] >> Before we leave, I want to end with

[87:32] something practical. These are tips that

[87:34] come from the American Foundation for

[87:36] Suicide Prevention. If you are worried

[87:38] about someone in your life, you do not

[87:41] have to have all the right words. You do

[87:43] not have to be a therapist, but you can

[87:46] show up. Find a private moment. Listen

[87:49] to them. Tell them you care about them.

[87:52] And if you are concerned, ask the

[87:54] question directly. Are you thinking

[87:56] about suicide? Do not be afraid that

[87:59] asking the question will make things

[88:00] worse. What matters is that the person

[88:03] knows they do not have to carry what

[88:05] they are feeling alone. Encourage them

[88:08] to talk to a doctor, a therapist, or

[88:10] another mental health professional who

[88:11] can help. Try not to debate them,

[88:14] minimize what they're going through, or

[88:16] rush in with advice. Sometimes the most

[88:19] important thing you can say is simply,

[88:21] "I hear you. I care about you, and I'm

[88:24] staying with you while we figure out

[88:26] what comes next." And if you are the

[88:29] person who is struggling, or you are

[88:30] worried about someone you love, help is

[88:33] available. You can call or text 988 to

[88:36] reach the suicide and crisis lifeline.

[88:38] Again, that number is 988.

[88:42] You're not alone. With help, we can

[88:44] write a different chapter for ourselves

[88:46] going forward. Thank you for joining us

[88:49] and thanks to Howard University for

[88:51] partnering with us on this very

[88:52] important conversation.

[88:55] [applause and music]

[89:00] [applause]

[89:12] >> [music]

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