PBS NewsHour - 1999-05-31

Channel: malgent

Transcript

Language: English (original, YouTube automatic captions)

[0:00] Pacific.

[0:12] Good evening. I'm Margaret Warner. Jim

[0:14] Lair is off today. On the NewsHour

[0:17] tonight, the president commemorates

[0:18] Memorial Day at Arlington. Allegations

[0:21] of slavery in Sudan. I'll report on a

[0:24] rescue effort and reaction to it.

[0:27] Beating traffic jams. Seattle has a

[0:29] high-tech solution. And finally, a David

[0:32] Gurgen dialogue with historian Steven

[0:34] Ambrose about the citizen soldiers of

[0:37] World War II. It all follows our summary

[0:39] of the news this Memorial Day.

[0:43] >> Brought to you in part by ADM. Feeding

[0:45] the world is the biggest challenge of

[0:47] the new century, which is why ADM

[0:49] promotes satellite technology to help

[0:51] the American farmer be even more

[0:53] productive. ADM, supermarket to the

[0:56] world.

[1:06] This program is made possible in part by

[1:08] a grant from Travelers Insurance

[1:13] and by the Corporation for Public

[1:14] Broadcasting and by the annual financial

[1:17] support from viewers like you.

[1:20] >> There were new accusations of civilian

[1:22] deaths today in the NATO bombing

[1:24] campaign for Kosovo. Yuguslav media

[1:26] reported at least 16 people were killed

[1:29] when bombs struck a sanitarium and

[1:31] retirement home in a city southeast of

[1:33] Belgrade. Serbian television said 10

[1:36] more people died when NATO attacked an

[1:38] apartment building in another city south

[1:40] of the capital.Wami Hullman has our

[1:43] summary of the day's events.

[1:46] On this 69th day of the NATO air

[1:48] assault, A10 tankbuster aircraft took

[1:50] advantage of good weather to launch

[1:52] low-level daylight attacks on Serb

[1:54] troops near the Albanian border.

[2:00] But the last 48 hours of newly

[2:02] accelerated attacks brought more reports

[2:05] of NATO caused civilian loss of life.

[2:08] Serb officials blamed NATO for the

[2:10] deaths at the sanitarium and adjacent

[2:12] retirement home in Sudita and said other

[2:15] people may be buried in the rubble.

[2:18] And Serb authorities said the NATO

[2:20] missiles that struck the apartment

[2:21] building in Novi Pazar in southwestern

[2:23] Serbia may have been aimed at a printing

[2:25] press and radio and television

[2:27] facilities.

[2:29] On Sunday, a midday bombing felled a

[2:32] bridge in southern Serbia that Yugoslav

[2:34] officials said was crowded with shoppers

[2:36] on foot and in cars. At least nine were

[2:39] killed, according to Serb media.

[2:42] Also Sunday, NATO bombed a tunnel

[2:44] entrance near Pris in Kosovo, killing

[2:46] one person and injuring other members of

[2:48] a convoy of Western reporters.

[2:51] >> Definitely an aerial bombardment. We saw

[2:53] the planes. We heard them flying very

[2:55] low. Couple of seconds later, big

[2:58] explosions.

[3:00] >> NATO said the bridge was a valid

[3:02] military target and acknowledged bombing

[3:04] in the areas of two of the other

[3:06] incidents in Brussels today. The reports

[3:09] of new civilian casualties brought this

[3:11] response from NATO spokesman Jamie

[3:13] Sheay.

[3:13] >> We have been engaged in this because the

[3:17] government of Belgrade has been been

[3:19] deliberately targeting large numbers of

[3:21] its own civilian population for months.

[3:24] We have made it clear that we would have

[3:26] preferred to solve this through other

[3:28] means except the use of force, but we

[3:31] are not going to be deterred.

[3:33] >> Meanwhile, the Serb news agency

[3:35] confirmed Yugoslav President Sloban

[3:37] Mallosvich's acceptance late last week

[3:39] of the principles of a peace deal

[3:40] offered by the group of eight industrial

[3:42] nations. A statement said Yugoslavia

[3:45] would allow peacekeeping forces to enter

[3:47] Kosovo, but it did not indicate whether

[3:49] NATO troops could be part of that force.

[3:51] That is a condition NATO continues to

[3:53] insist on.

[3:54] >> No NATO, no GO.

[3:57] Why? Because it is to us absolutely

[4:01] crystal clear that if there is not an

[4:03] effective security force in Kosovo,

[4:06] nobody is going to trust that force. No

[4:09] Serb, no Kosovar, nobody.

[4:13] >> The Serbs continued to release ethnic

[4:15] Albanian men from prisons in Kosovo.

[4:17] Some 150 arrived in Albania yesterday

[4:20] with tales of torture and beatings at

[4:22] the hands of the Serbs. Another 50 came

[4:25] to Macedonia. This man said he was

[4:27] pulled from a convoy of refugees

[4:29] attempting to flee Kosovo.

[4:31] >> I stayed in jail for a month. We were

[4:33] separated from a convoy of people. They

[4:35] beat us. Look how they broke all my

[4:37] teeth. They put my dentures on the

[4:39] ground and they smashed them. They were

[4:41] hitting me on the head and I was bloody.

[4:44] Now I'm an invalid and very sick.

[4:48] The former prisoners reported thousands

[4:50] more men and children remain in a prison

[4:53] compound near the Kosovo capital of

[4:55] Christina, surrounded by military

[4:57] equipment parked there by the Serbs.

[5:00] >> President Clinton urged Americans this

[5:02] Memorial Day to support the US military

[5:04] campaign over Kosovo, saying it was a

[5:07] quote big test of what we believe in. He

[5:10] spoke at Arlington National Cemetery

[5:12] outside Washington. He began the visit

[5:15] by placing a wreath at the Tomb of the

[5:16] Unknowns and observing a moment of

[5:19] silence. He then told a crowd of several

[5:22] thousand that to ignore ethnic slaughter

[5:24] in Kosovo would be to repeat the

[5:26] mistakes of the past. We'll have

[5:28] excerpts from the president's speech

[5:30] later in the program. In Turkey, Kurdish

[5:33] rebel leader Abdullah Ojelan urged

[5:35] judges at his treason trial to spare his

[5:38] life. Speaking from a bulletproof glass

[5:40] cage on the trial's opening day, Ojelan

[5:43] offered the government a deal. He said

[5:46] he will end the armed rebellion by

[5:47] Kurdish separatists if he is spared, but

[5:50] he warned that hundreds of thousands

[5:52] will die if he is not. Ojelan stands

[5:55] accused of leading a 15-year war for

[5:57] Kurdish independence.

[5:59] India agreed today to talk with Pakistan

[6:01] about Kashmir, but said Indian air

[6:04] attacks would continue over the disputed

[6:06] territory. India has conducted six days

[6:09] of air and ground assaults on militants

[6:11] in the Indian controlled part of

[6:13] Kashmir. India contends the guerillas

[6:15] are funded and directed by Pakistan.

[6:18] Pakistan denies the charge. No date was

[6:20] set for the talks. Back in this country,

[6:23] firefighters struggled to control blazes

[6:26] in four states today. In North Florida,

[6:29] flames have scorched some 50,000 acres

[6:31] in the Oki Finoi swamp and spread into

[6:33] Georgia. In Arizona, wind gusts of up to

[6:36] 50 m an hour have fueled two wildfires

[6:39] that have burn more burned more than

[6:41] 24,000 acres. And in California, fires

[6:44] have consumed 13,000 acres at Joshua

[6:47] Tree National Park. Forestry officials

[6:49] say those fires have now been contained.

[6:52] That's it for the news summary tonight.

[6:54] Now it's on to the president's Memorial

[6:56] Day message. Slavery, slavery in Sudan,

[7:00] outsmarting Seattle's traffic and a

[7:02] Gurgen dialogue about America's citizen

[7:05] soldiers.

[7:15] President Clinton commemorated Memorial

[7:17] Day with a speech at Arlington National

[7:19] Cemetery. Here are excerpts of what he

[7:21] said.

[7:23] On the eve of a new millennium,

[7:26] we can see clearly how closely the

[7:29] sacrifices of our men and women in

[7:32] uniform in the 20th century are linked

[7:35] to the yearning for freedom that gave

[7:38] birth to our nation over 200 years ago.

[7:43] A yearning based on the then radical

[7:46] premise

[7:47] that we are all inherently equal.

[7:52] fully able to govern ourselves and

[7:55] endowed with God a God-given right to

[8:00] liberty.

[8:02] that as our history, a history that

[8:05] beckons us especially on this Memorial

[8:07] Day and especially here at Arlington.

[8:12] The most powerful evidence we now have

[8:16] that our country has accepted

[8:18] consistently

[8:20] the old adage that much is expected from

[8:24] those to whom much is given.

[8:28] From Concord to Corador, from Korea to

[8:30] Quesan, from Kuwait to Kosovo,

[8:33] our entire history is written in this

[8:36] ground.

[8:38] Today, there is a new challenge before

[8:40] us in Kosovo.

[8:42] It is a very small province and a small

[8:45] country, but it is a big test of what we

[8:49] believe in.

[8:51] our commitment to leave to our children

[8:53] a world where people are not uprooted

[8:55] and ravaged and slaughtered in mass

[8:58] because of their race, their ethnicity

[9:00] or their religion.

[9:02] Our fundamental interest in building a

[9:05] lasting peace in an undivided and free

[9:07] Europe,

[9:09] a place which saw two world wars when

[9:12] that dream failed in the 20th century.

[9:16] Every morning on Memorial Day, I have a

[9:19] breakfast for leaders of the veterans

[9:21] community at the White House. And I

[9:24] stand there with eager anticipation

[9:28] as people who have fought or whose

[9:30] relatives have fought and often died in

[9:33] our wars come through the line.

[9:37] I noticed them today. There were Irish

[9:39] Americans and Italian-Americans.

[9:41] There were Arab Americans and Jewish

[9:43] Americans.

[9:45] There were Catholic Americans and

[9:47] Protestant Americans. There were

[9:49] African-Americans. There were Hispanic

[9:51] Americans. There were Asian-Americans.

[9:53] Just look around here today at the kinds

[9:55] of people who are wearing the evidence

[9:57] of their service to our country. We are

[10:01] a stronger country because we respect

[10:04] our differences and we are united by our

[10:07] common humanity.

[10:09] Now, we cannot expect everybody to

[10:11] follow our lead, and we haven't gotten

[10:13] it entirely right now.

[10:16] We don't expect everybody to get along

[10:20] all the time.

[10:22] But we can say no to ethnic cleansing.

[10:26] We can say no to mass slaughter of

[10:29] people because of the way they worship

[10:31] God and because of who their parents

[10:34] were. We can say no to that and we

[10:37] should.

[10:48] It is important that you know that in

[10:50] Kosovo the world has said no.

[10:54] I know that many Americans believe that

[10:57] this is not our fight.

[11:00] But remember why many of the people are

[11:02] laying in these graves out here.

[11:05] Because of what happened in Europe

[11:08] and because of what was allowed to go on

[11:10] too long before people intervened,

[11:13] what we are doing today will save lives,

[11:15] including American lives in the future.

[11:18] And it will give our children a better,

[11:19] safer world to live in.

[11:23] In this military campaign, the United

[11:25] States has borne a large share of the

[11:27] burden as we must because we have a

[11:29] greater capacity to bear that burden.

[11:33] But all Americans should know that we

[11:36] have been strongly supported by our

[11:37] European allies.

[11:40] That when the peacekeeping force goes in

[11:42] there, the overwhelming majority of

[11:44] people will be Europeans.

[11:47] And that when the reconstruction begins,

[11:49] the overwhelming amount of investment

[11:51] will be European.

[11:53] This is something we have done together.

[11:58] And I ask you in the days and nights

[12:01] ahead

[12:03] to remember our brave pilots and crews

[12:05] flying over Serbia

[12:08] to keep their families and our thoughts.

[12:11] And in the bright new century ahead,

[12:14] those who live free

[12:17] with pride in and without fear of their

[12:19] heritage or their fate will be very

[12:23] grateful to today's men and women in

[12:27] uniform.

[12:29] I thank you all. God bless you and God

[12:33] bless America.

[12:44] A civil war has raged for decades in the

[12:47] African country of Sudan. Now the

[12:50] government is being accused of condoning

[12:52] slavery. We start with a report from

[12:54] correspondent Tom Bearden on some

[12:56] elementary school students in Denver who

[12:59] helped draw attention to the issue.

[13:03] >> When we write dear whatever, do we write

[13:05] UN or United? No, I'm going to give you

[13:07] the name. We're going to write.

[13:09] >> It was a very special civics lesson,

[13:11] learning about the world by trying to

[13:13] change it.

[13:14] >> This group of fourth graders in a

[13:15] suburban Denver school has launched a

[13:17] campaign to free the victims of modern

[13:20] slavery in Africa. Their campaign has

[13:23] already made some big waves, moving

[13:24] their congressman to raise the issue

[13:26] with the secretary of state, for

[13:28] example.

[13:28] >> Madam Secretary, I want to tell you

[13:30] about something I'm very proud of. Over

[13:31] a thousand of those redeemed slaves have

[13:33] had their fe freedom purchased by some

[13:35] fourth grade students. believe it or

[13:37] not, in a in a school in my district,

[13:38] Highline Community School.

[13:40] >> Believe me, I um know about the terrible

[13:44] human uh uh degradation that is taking

[13:46] place in Sudan. I admire those students

[13:48] and I will write a letter back to them.

[13:53] >> Half a world away from the kids' Aurora,

[13:55] Colorado classroom, Africa's largest

[13:57] country has been locked in a bitter

[13:59] civil war for 15 years. The Islamic

[14:02] government in Sudan's north is fighting

[14:04] rebels in the south, most of them

[14:06] Christian or adherence of indigenous

[14:08] tribal religions. While the Sudin

[14:11] government denies it, most human rights

[14:13] observers say independent militias

[14:15] fighting on behalf of the government

[14:17] have been encouraged to capture slaves

[14:19] during their raids among the Dinka

[14:21] people of southern Sudan.

[14:23] Yet slavery has been only a part of the

[14:26] staggering human cost of the war. Nearly

[14:28] 2 million lives lost. more than four

[14:31] million people displaced. The US media

[14:34] have reported all this sporadically, but

[14:36] there hasn't been any sustained

[14:37] attention. Then a year ago, Barbara

[14:40] Vogle read a small article in a Denver

[14:42] paper about the resurgence of slavery in

[14:44] Sudan.

[14:45] >> I brought the article into my class and

[14:47] I said, "I have something I want to read

[14:48] to you today." And I taught you that

[14:50] slavery was over and that's what our

[14:52] books had said. But I was wrong and so

[14:54] were they. They sat as I read that

[14:56] article and tears were coming down their

[14:59] face. Their mouths were open and the

[15:02] very first thing that they said is

[15:05] ingrained in my mind. What are we going

[15:08] to do about this?

[15:11] >> Bogle's kids responded in two ways. They

[15:14] started writing letters to important

[15:16] people from the president and the UN

[15:18] secretary general on down. You need to

[15:20] write the secretary

[15:24] and you need to tell him.

[15:26] >> They also started raising money,

[15:28] donating their allowances, selling their

[15:30] toys in the schoolyard.

[15:31] >> Oh my god. Where did that dollar come

[15:33] from?

[15:35] >> From your tooth. Did the tooth fairy

[15:38] come land?

[15:38] >> They had seen reports that two Christian

[15:40] organizations were using the

[15:42] controversial tactic of actually buying

[15:44] slaves and setting them free. And they

[15:46] wanted to help. They sent their money to

[15:48] Christian Solidarity International,

[15:50] which converts the donated money into

[15:52] Sudanese currency. Then people like

[15:55] Christian Solidarities John Iner make

[15:57] clandestine visits to southern Sudan. He

[15:59] buys slaves from northern Sudanese

[16:01] traders.

[16:02] >> 200,000

[16:04] 300,000.

[16:05] >> The going rate for a human being is the

[16:07] equivalent of 50 US. The redeemed slaves

[16:10] are then free to return to their

[16:12] villages. The Denver Post did a story

[16:14] about the children's fundraising

[16:16] efforts, which was then picked up by

[16:17] other newspapers and TV networks. Money

[16:20] began to pour in.

[16:23] >> We're free slave and people don't think

[16:26] that kids can make a difference, but we

[16:29] are. I've learned the power of one. And

[16:31] I've learned that even if you're

[16:33] standing alone, you can make a big

[16:34] difference.

[16:36] >> How big will that difference be? Vogel's

[16:38] class drew international press

[16:40] attention. In Japan, your achievements

[16:42] are wellreceived by the Japanese people,

[16:46] >> but also criticism. Francis Deng is a

[16:49] former Sudin diplomat who's now a senior

[16:51] scholar at the Brookings Institution. I

[16:54] find myself frankly in a serious

[16:56] situation of moral dilemma because to be

[16:59] going to people who are known to be

[17:02] slavers and therefore criminals whom the

[17:04] world should condemn to be doing

[17:06] business with those kinds of people I

[17:08] just find very difficult to to to to

[17:11] accept. On the other hand, I cannot say

[17:16] that freeing children is wrong if they

[17:18] can in fact be freed. And I think if we

[17:21] can make the link so that this business

[17:24] with slaveries is only a source of

[17:26] providing evidence that can arouse the

[17:29] conscience of humanity, then it might be

[17:32] a good thing.

[17:33] >> Jeff Drum Truck of the US Committee on

[17:35] Refugees thinks that buying slaves may

[17:38] even perpetuate the slave market. The

[17:40] money that goes into buying back slaves

[17:43] could possibly fuel the slave trade

[17:45] because this money goes to the same

[17:47] people who are doing the raids,

[17:50] abducting the children, and by buying

[17:53] back the slaves, the question is, are we

[17:56] paying money into a vicious circle that

[17:59] encourages more slave raid?

[18:01] >> Vogle says that fear is unfounded. We

[18:04] have really researched this and there is

[18:06] no evidence that this uh purchasing the

[18:11] freedom the redemption of women and

[18:14] children is causing any slave market.

[18:16] The price of slaves have not risen.

[18:18] Matter of fact, it's dropped.

[18:20] >> America, a country which tore itself

[18:23] apart over the issue of one man owning

[18:25] another, is nothing if not an

[18:26] abolitionist nation. I know.

[18:29] >> Tactics aside, Bogle's class continues

[18:31] to find more and more allies in their

[18:33] crusade. They recently participated in a

[18:36] dayong video conference on slavery

[18:38] staged at the Simon Wezenthal Center in

[18:40] Los Angeles.

[18:41] >> 500,

[18:43] 600.

[18:43] >> The audience watched some of the news

[18:45] coverage from Sudan. They also heard

[18:47] from Christian Solidarities John Iner.

[18:50] >> The time is long overdue for people of

[18:52] goodwill, regardless of creed or color,

[18:54] to raise their voices and protest. The

[18:57] silence of our national leaders has so

[18:59] far been deafening.

[19:00] >> A key goal of the teleconference and of

[19:02] the growing movement the children have

[19:04] sparked is simple consciousness raising.

[19:06] >> Type your message. All you have to do

[19:09] >> one of the oldest and most prominent

[19:10] American human rights groups. Freedom

[19:12] House has gotten involved by organizing

[19:15] college students. They hope to spur a

[19:17] nationwide protest movement. Because

[19:19] many of the enslaved dinkas are

[19:21] Christians, Freedom House has found

[19:22] especially strong interest at Christian

[19:24] schools. Although Freedom House does not

[19:27] help redeem slaves, it held a conference

[19:29] at Georgetown University to hear from

[19:31] England's Baroness Caroline Cox, a

[19:33] member of the House of Lords, who has

[19:35] organized her own slave redemption

[19:37] mission.

[19:38] >> 160,000

[19:40] Christians have died for their faith

[19:42] each year, our faith each year. Many of

[19:46] those are in Sudan.

[19:48] >> Students also attend meetings on how to

[19:50] organize a letterw writing campaign or

[19:52] set up a web page about slavery. put the

[19:54] history of Sudan with like a map with

[19:57] like pictures um because pictures really

[19:59] speak like a thousand words.

[20:01] >> On other campuses early this year, some

[20:03] students set up mock slave pens and

[20:05] created newsletters about human rights

[20:07] abuses in Sudan. Freedom Houses's Nina

[20:10] Shea thinks all this will eventually

[20:12] have an impact.

[20:13] >> There's complete silence from our

[20:14] political leaders. It's going to become

[20:16] politically untenable for this silence

[20:18] to go on.

[20:22] This new abolition movement may be

[20:23] growing, but it also faces a lot of

[20:25] apathy. New Jersey Representative Donald

[20:28] Payne has been trying to get Congress

[20:30] and the administration to focus on the

[20:32] issue for several years. When Vogle

[20:34] students wrote to him, he responded with

[20:36] a certificate of appreciation and words

[20:38] of encouragement. for your dedication as

[20:41] little abolitionists to end slavery in

[20:45] Africa.

[20:46] >> Payne is pleased by the increased

[20:48] attention, but says it's been a long

[20:49] time coming.

[20:50] >> When the anti-apartid coalition was

[20:53] waging its campaign against South

[20:55] Africa, the protests were loud. The

[20:58] passion was evident. Where is the

[21:00] passion here? It it isn't here. We

[21:04] haven't seen arrest. We haven't seen

[21:06] demonstrations at the embassy of Sudan.

[21:09] Uh I'm hoping now that we will start to

[21:13] see that. I think that once we start to

[21:15] demonstrate uh the passion will build

[21:18] because the education of what is

[21:21] happening will become more widespread

[21:23] and that's when you'll see people start

[21:24] to to move forward.

[21:26] >> Payne and others have decrieded the

[21:28] slowness of the world's response.

[21:30] Freedom Houses's Nina Sheay is more

[21:32] specific. She points her finger at human

[21:34] rights groups in particular.

[21:36] >> I'm very disappointed in the human

[21:37] rights community as a whole. They've

[21:39] barely uttered a word of protest about

[21:41] this slavery issue and this is a real

[21:43] slavery where children are being shipped

[21:45] in uh by their freight car loads north

[21:48] to the slave markets.

[21:50] >> Jeff Dr Trump believes the sheer scale

[21:52] of the misery has made it hard to focus

[21:54] on a single response.

[21:56] >> It's not that the human rights

[21:57] organizations are opposed to each other.

[22:00] I think that the issue is how do you get

[22:02] the American public and how do you get

[22:04] the highest levels of the administration

[22:07] focused on this issue for a sustained

[22:09] period of time. For some people, slavery

[22:12] is what will compel them. For others,

[22:14] the idea that 100,000 people died of

[22:16] famine last year in this day and age

[22:18] that people died of starvation.

[22:22] >> Some civil rights groups have gone on

[22:24] the record opposing slavery in Sudan.

[22:26] Critics think they should be doing more.

[22:29] It's not a matter of popular democracy

[22:33] when it comes to human rights.

[22:35] >> One black leader who has spoken out is

[22:37] Reverend Chuck Singleton of the Loveland

[22:39] Church in California.

[22:41] >> Human rights come by demand.

[22:46] Human rights come because somebody

[22:48] resists the powers that be and say it's

[22:52] got to change.

[22:56] The anti-slavery folks say they've

[22:57] approached some of the black civil

[22:59] rights organizations in this country and

[23:00] they've not been interested in the

[23:02] issue. Is that the case? And if so, why?

[23:04] I think that's an exaggeration to say

[23:05] they're not interested. Uh but uh that

[23:08] they haven't responded on a level that

[23:10] we would expect. I think that's accurate

[23:11] to say leaders tend to get busy. When

[23:15] they get busy, they become maintenance

[23:17] people. They got to keep going what they

[23:18] got going already. So to call their

[23:20] attention to and to get them to change

[23:22] directions or add another agenda item is

[23:25] is a very difficult thing to do.

[23:27] >> The kids are singularly unimpressed with

[23:29] the adult arguments over competing

[23:31] agendas.

[23:32] >> This is a wrong and we need to make it

[23:34] right.

[23:34] >> They don't claim to have solutions to

[23:36] problems that have baffled world leaders

[23:38] for years. But they are absolutely

[23:41] convinced that if they continue to speak

[23:43] out, they can make a difference. In

[23:45] fact, awareness campaigns have raised

[23:47] hundreds of thousands of dollars to free

[23:49] slaves. And although the Sudin

[23:51] government still denies slavery even

[23:53] exists, it has recently established a

[23:55] committee to end what it calls the

[23:57] abductions and forced labor of women and

[24:00] children. As political movements go,

[24:03] this one is very young. It has no

[24:04] national leader, no cohesive tactics, no

[24:07] unified agenda, no nine-point program.

[24:10] It is not yet a mass movement, but it is

[24:13] growing. Some believe it's likely to

[24:15] fade in the face of apathy, but Mrs.

[24:17] Vogel's fourth grade doesn't intend to

[24:20] let that happen.

[24:25] >> Phil Pon explores the subject further in

[24:27] this discussion taped last week.

[24:30] >> We get three views. El Fati Edois is

[24:33] Sudan's ambassador to the United

[24:34] Nations. Ola Otunu, a veteran diplomat

[24:37] and former foreign minister of Uganda,

[24:39] is now the United Nations special

[24:41] representative for children and armed

[24:43] conflict. And Philipe Gon is director of

[24:46] World Vision Sudan, a private relief and

[24:48] aid organization. Mr. Ambassador, we

[24:51] just saw a piece which suggests that

[24:52] there is an active slave trade in your

[24:54] country. For the record, is there

[24:56] slavery taking place in Sudan?

[24:58] >> I would say uh no slavery as such. And

[25:01] uh I would like to uh first of all put

[25:04] it on record that uh I don't question

[25:07] the innocence and the good intention of

[25:09] those children but I question those who

[25:13] have hidden political agenda behind it

[25:15] and bringing a scam to show to those

[25:18] children. Uh I just would like to put uh

[25:22] two or three points uh that would put

[25:24] things in its own uh precise logic.

[25:28] First of all, uh I would say abduction

[25:33] between uh tribes be it northern or

[25:36] southerner among themselves eating

[25:38] southerner against southerner or

[25:39] northerner against southerner. It's a

[25:42] practice that's going for ages and uh

[25:46] the government has worked hard to

[25:48] eradicate it. There is no all the laws

[25:51] in the government does not condone this

[25:52] and on the contrary punishes it.

[25:54] >> And so if I can interrupt you if I can

[25:57] interrupt you Mr. Ambassador, you're

[25:58] saying abductions are taking place, but

[26:00] they do not constitute slavery.

[26:02] >> Yeah, I think yeah, this what what what

[26:04] we believe. So, uh because now I am

[26:07] almost approaching my fifth year. I have

[26:09] never seen a slave in my life in my own

[26:11] country. Uh the second thing I would

[26:13] like also the most important point is

[26:15] that uh this is not only part of the

[26:18] civil war that's going on. It's a tribal

[26:20] conflict because the civil war is a

[26:22] political war and more than 95% of the

[26:26] displaced people of the south they go to

[26:28] the north and find refuge there instead

[26:31] of going to the neighboring countries.

[26:33] The third point I would like to put is

[26:35] that all these practices which we have

[26:37] seen that people buying slaves or

[26:40] freeing slaves I think this is a scam

[26:42] because if we address two major points

[26:45] we will know the reality of it. First of

[26:47] all these people they have entered Sudan

[26:49] through the rebel held areas. They have

[26:51] never been into the government areas. We

[26:54] have we are faced with two situation.

[26:55] Either the rebels are participating on

[26:58] this kind of trade and you cannot

[27:01] imagine that people will go and buy from

[27:03] someone who has thousands of slaves

[27:06] under the controlled military control

[27:08] area.

[27:09] >> Mr. Mr. Ambassador, when you say when

[27:10] you say that it's a scam the video that

[27:13] we saw of a of a person with the

[27:15] Christian Solid with Christian

[27:17] Solidarity International handing over

[27:19] money, would you are you saying that

[27:20] that is not an accurate portrayal that

[27:22] that is a scam?

[27:23] >> I believe it is not accurate because I

[27:25] challenge them to tell us how did they

[27:27] enter they entered through the rebel

[27:29] controlled areas. So if they entered

[27:32] through the rebel control areas, how

[27:34] could you hold the government

[27:36] responsible? Why the rebels allowing

[27:38] such trade to take place in that in that

[27:41] area?

[27:41] >> In other words, that video tape that we

[27:42] saw is not to be believed in your

[27:44] opinion.

[27:44] >> In my opinion, either it is a scam or

[27:49] the rebels are participating in this

[27:50] trade.

[27:51] >> Mr. uh Mr. Gon, what is uh what is your

[27:53] reaction? Is there slavery taking place

[27:55] in Sudan?

[27:56] >> Yes, I think we can we can uh play with

[27:59] the word. Some people are speaking about

[28:01] abduction and then forced labor. Um I to

[28:05] me when you are taking people abducting

[28:07] people taking them away from their place

[28:10] and uh forcing them to work without any

[28:13] any hope of freedom and without salary

[28:17] I'm calling that slavery. So I think

[28:19] there is still slavery happening in

[28:22] Sudan today.

[28:23] >> And Mr. Gone, what kind of work are the

[28:25] people who are abducted forced to do?

[28:27] They're they're taken from the south of

[28:29] Sudan to the north of Sudan typically

[28:31] and then they're forced to do what?

[28:34] Well, they are taken um when when there

[28:37] is a red when there's a military action.

[28:39] >> When there's a raid

[28:40] >> Yes. When a military action taking place

[28:43] in in southern Sudan at the border

[28:45] between the north and the south where

[28:47] the conflict is going on at the moment.

[28:49] Uh usually um the raiders are taking

[28:52] cattle and people with them, mostly

[28:55] women and children, taking them to into

[28:57] the north and where they are forced to

[29:00] work usually for um people in their

[29:04] houses um as free uh cheap labor.

[29:08] >> They're used as domestic servants, for

[29:10] example.

[29:11] >> Uh that's what I heard. Yeah,

[29:12] >> Mr. Otunu in the uh in the taped

[29:15] introductory piece we saw this practice

[29:17] of redeeming the people who have been

[29:20] abducted paying for their freedom. Is

[29:22] that a good idea?

[29:24] Slavery is of course an abomination uh

[29:28] regardless of where it is being

[29:30] practiced and by whom. We absolutely

[29:33] must repudiate that. But having said

[29:36] that actually buying a person like

[29:39] buying a cattle

[29:41] presents a moral dilemma. Are you not

[29:45] participating in this practice and

[29:47] trade? The point that was made by

[29:49] Francis Deng and I share his views

[29:52] entirely. But also

[29:54] >> Francis Deng is a gentleman who we saw

[29:55] in the introductory piece.

[29:56] >> That's right. He's himself actually from

[29:58] the Sudan. But also, are you not fueling

[30:02] and creating the very market that would

[30:05] then make people take slaves in order to

[30:08] have them be redeemed in a country like

[30:10] Sudan where so many people are so poor,

[30:14] $1 a day per person, sometimes a day per

[30:17] family, and you bring in $50 US at one

[30:20] go, this could create a whole market, a

[30:23] whole condition. So this I find

[30:25] troublesome. But more fundamentally,

[30:28] the real eradication of this practice

[30:31] does not lie in the redemption by

[30:34] financial means. It lies in prosecuting

[30:37] those who are abducting children and

[30:39] women. It lies in ending the conflict,

[30:44] the civil war in Sudan, which creates

[30:46] conditions that fuels this practice. We

[30:49] must not divert our attention from this

[30:53] central task of bringing pressure on the

[30:56] parties concerned not to abduct to tell

[31:00] them they cannot expect goodwill from

[31:02] the international community to prosecute

[31:04] those who are found to be guilty but

[31:06] above all to bring the party to the

[31:09] conference table and end the conflict

[31:12] which makes this possible.

[31:13] >> Mr. ambassador staying with the issue of

[31:15] the of the payment. Uh is this uh is

[31:17] this publicity that that is uh that your

[31:20] country is getting is this putting any

[31:22] pressure on you to to address this issue

[31:24] with the formation of this committee

[31:25] last week for example?

[31:27] >> Uh actually we we find oursel uh obliged

[31:31] to to address this issue whether uh in

[31:34] we whatever whatever form it is on

[31:37] because we as a responsible government

[31:39] we do not condone such practices. Is it

[31:42] is it embarrassing to your government to

[31:44] have these stories?

[31:45] >> Actually uh it not to that such because

[31:48] uh the stories itself as I said we

[31:50] question the the integrity of the

[31:52] stories. As I said we have problems

[31:55] among the tribes and this tribal thing

[31:57] is going for years. It's not only among

[31:59] north and south. It's only between the

[32:01] southerners themselves. And uh as I

[32:04] said, you cannot go and find someone to

[32:07] buy 1,000 slave from him and let this

[32:09] man is is is guarding these slaves with

[32:12] with an army. And and this is why I see

[32:14] this story are a little bit exaggerated.

[32:17] Though we confess that there are

[32:19] problems between tribes happening

[32:21] between southerners and southerners

[32:23] between northerners and southerners in

[32:25] the in the in those areas and the war

[32:28] zone areas or even n in nonzone areas it

[32:32] happens between tribes also in the

[32:33] south.

[32:34] >> Mr. Gon I'd like your reaction to the

[32:36] issue of payment. Is is that a good idea

[32:38] to pay for somebody's freedom?

[32:41] I think uh buying the redemption of

[32:44] slave is not going to help ending

[32:47] slavery and ending these trade these

[32:50] horrible trade still going on in the

[32:53] 21st century. Um I think it's part of a

[32:56] solution. Um

[32:58] um at that time I think we have to focus

[33:01] on what will be the solution to end

[33:02] slavery into Sudan which is and I agree

[33:05] with with Mr.

[33:06] which is to focus on on uh finding peace

[33:10] for Sudan, ending the conflict in Sudan.

[33:12] If the conflicts end in Sudan, we will

[33:15] be able to address the issue

[33:17] efficiently, the issue of slavery.

[33:19] >> Some people though are saying that you

[33:21] can't wait until there's a political

[33:22] settlement to do something about people

[33:23] who find themselves abducted and and

[33:26] forced into uh forced into mandatory

[33:29] labor. How do you react to that? I think

[33:31] what should be done uh is to I think

[33:34] that's what the government has put in

[33:36] place recently is a good step actually

[33:37] it's a step in a good direction to

[33:39] establish a committee with the power to

[33:42] go invest in investigate and take the

[33:44] people who are practicing uh the slave

[33:47] trade and and doing slavery um into into

[33:50] court and trial them and put them to

[33:53] into jail that may mitigate this effect.

[33:56] I think buying that buying back and

[33:58] introducing money in the slave trade uh

[34:02] money from outside the country is not

[34:04] going to help ending slavery. Now,

[34:07] >> Mr. Ortuno, are you optimistic about

[34:08] this special committee that was

[34:10] announced last week to look into the

[34:12] issue of abductions and forced labor?

[34:14] >> Well, first of all, I'm very glad that

[34:16] the government of Sudan is recognizing

[34:19] and addressing this issue. But secondly,

[34:22] the composition of the committee is

[34:24] encouraging because it's very

[34:25] broad-based, including members of civil

[34:27] society, including mothers associations,

[34:30] including for people from some of the

[34:32] ethnic groups like the Dinka who have

[34:35] been among the major victims of this uh

[34:38] practice. So this is encouraging, but of

[34:40] course we must wait and see what they do

[34:42] in practice before passing judgment. But

[34:45] in my view, the first line of action is

[34:48] to prosecute those who are responsible

[34:51] under Sudanese law. There should be no

[34:53] impunity. Pressure, political pressure

[34:56] should be brought to bear on all parties

[34:58] in the conflict who are practicing this

[35:00] when there is evidence of abduction of

[35:02] people. But above all, above all, we

[35:05] must mobilize an international movement

[35:07] for peace in the Sudan. We must bring

[35:09] the parties to the conference table and

[35:12] end the conditions of chaos, atrocities

[35:15] and impunity that makes it possible for

[35:18] this practice to flourish in the Sudan.

[35:20] >> Mr. Ambassador, is your government

[35:22] committed to bringing the power of the

[35:24] law to bear on people who are engaged in

[35:26] this practice?

[35:27] >> Absolutely. The government is very

[35:29] committed and coming also to the issue

[35:30] of peace in Sudan. I think this is the

[35:33] first government in Sudan that realized

[35:36] the importance of peace and it has went

[35:38] to put the real solution which is

[35:41] self-determination for the southern

[35:44] Sudan and this self-determination will

[35:46] will let the southern people themselves

[35:48] decide whether they accept unity or even

[35:52] uh separation and having their own state

[35:54] and I think the last statement by my

[35:56] president which was said before very

[35:59] recently that for Sudan a unity with

[36:02] war. Uh we prefer the peace with

[36:06] separation than unity with war.

[36:08] >> Mr. Ambassador, I thank you very much.

[36:09] Mr. Otuno, I thank you. And Mr. Gon,

[36:11] thank you.

[36:12] >> Still to come on the NewsHour tonight,

[36:14] beating Seattle's traffic and a Gurgen

[36:17] dialogue on soldiers.

[36:27] There are some new high-tech ways to

[36:30] avoid traffic congestion. Rod Minet of

[36:32] KCTS Seattle reports.

[36:35] >> We don't have too many blocking

[36:36] problems, but slow traffic, lots of it.

[36:38] >> Richard Gilman may be the commuter of

[36:40] the future. The 51-year-old software

[36:43] consultant uses a small palmtop computer

[36:46] to check on traffic congestion. Before

[36:48] leaving his home, he must choose between

[36:50] one of two major highways that lead into

[36:52] Seattle.

[36:53] >> So, what's the traffic look like?

[36:55] >> Well, looks like 520 is stop and go, but

[36:58] I90 looks clear into Seattle.

[37:01] >> The computer software and wireless modem

[37:04] download color-coded maps from the

[37:05] internet that enable Gilman to pick his

[37:07] route.

[37:08] >> There's a 520 and those black areas mean

[37:11] stop and go.

[37:12] >> Black and red indicate heavy traffic.

[37:15] Green means an easy commute. The maps

[37:17] are constantly updated, giving current

[37:19] data on accidents, construction, and

[37:21] road closures.

[37:23] >> I like to check the traffic before I

[37:25] leave somewhere because, you know, the

[37:27] traffic around here is pretty tough. And

[37:28] uh you have a choice of which bridge to

[37:30] take across Lake Washington to get into

[37:32] Seattle. And and uh if there's an

[37:35] accident on one of the bridges, you're

[37:36] way better off taking the other bridge.

[37:38] So, if I can check in advance and see if

[37:40] one of them's jammed up, then it saves

[37:42] me a lot of time. The traffic

[37:44] information is provided by Smart Trek,

[37:46] an $18 million pilot project designed to

[37:49] fight automobile congestion. It's funded

[37:52] by the Department of Transportation's

[37:53] Federal Highway Administration.

[37:56] >> Kenneth Wel heads that agency.

[37:59] >> As we look to the future, the 21st

[38:01] century, we need to find a new solution

[38:04] uh so that we do not build more roads. I

[38:07] mean, building our way out of this

[38:09] congestion is not the answer. We think

[38:11] the answer is intelligent transportation

[38:14] systems and they will be the interstate

[38:16] system for the 21st century.

[38:20] Seattle's Smart Trek program ties

[38:22] together a vast network of traffic

[38:24] monitoring technology. Much of it was

[38:26] installed by state, local, and federal

[38:28] planners over the past 20 years with all

[38:31] the elements now packaged together in

[38:33] Smart Track. It includes radio

[38:35] transmitters on buses, 300 cameras

[38:38] mounted along highways, and 3,000

[38:41] sensors buried under roads. Smart Trek

[38:44] collects the data, processes it on a

[38:46] central computer, and then makes it

[38:48] available to commuters on the internet.

[38:51] The data can even be transmitted on

[38:53] other high-tech gadgets, including a

[38:55] specially crafted watch. So this would

[38:57] indicate that at I5

[38:59] there's a level one incident southbound

[39:02] at northeast 130th.

[39:04] >> Dan Daly designed the computer

[39:06] networking system for Smart Track and

[39:08] now works at the University of

[39:10] Washington as an associate professor of

[39:12] electrical engineering. He demonstrated

[39:15] how a program called Bus View works.

[39:18] Here we're seeing a um picture of the

[39:21] University District map. As you can see,

[39:22] there's a fairly large number of buses

[39:24] in the U district. Bus view tracks up to

[39:27] 1,000 buses equipped with radio

[39:29] transmitters. The buses are displayed on

[39:31] a map on the internet. The application

[39:34] itself has a couple friendly features.

[39:37] You can click on a bus and get what we

[39:41] call a progress bar, which allows you to

[39:43] actually see the progress of the bus

[39:46] along its route.

[39:49] >> Then at actual bus stops, commuters find

[39:51] another smart track feature called

[39:53] transit watch. TV screens display bus

[39:56] times, letting commuters know if their

[39:58] bus is early, on time, or late in the

[40:01] same way monitors at airports show

[40:03] scheduled and actual arrivals and

[40:05] departures.

[40:06] >> Well, I missed my other bus and so it's

[40:08] kind of nice to be able to have an idea

[40:10] when the next bus is going to be here

[40:12] and if it's running on time or if it's

[40:14] late or or if that one was the one I

[40:16] wanted and it's early.

[40:17] >> I find it pretty useful considering I

[40:19] don't carry a watch or bus schedules, so

[40:21] I think it's pretty useful. Yeah. King

[40:24] County Councilwoman Maggie Famia is

[40:26] skeptical. She says she hears something

[40:29] different from other commuters.

[40:31] >> What they tell me is they want more

[40:32] buses. They want to see not real time.

[40:35] They want to see real buses coming down

[40:38] the street to pick them up.

[40:40] >> Smart Trek also reports traffic over a

[40:42] cable TV channel. It broadcasts maps and

[40:45] live pictures of congestion on freeways.

[40:48] Dan Dailyaly of the University of

[40:50] Washington. The TV display, the

[40:53] information on the TV display is updated

[40:55] every 20 seconds. So, it's truly

[40:58] real-time information about the highway.

[41:01] This is different than what you might

[41:02] get on a radio traffic report where the

[41:06] information can be somewhat old because

[41:08] it requires a series of steps to get

[41:10] that information to you. Private

[41:12] companies are being encouraged to

[41:14] participate in and profit from Smart

[41:16] Trek with innovations of their own.

[41:18] >> Traffic

[41:20] Traffic one message.

[41:22] >> One company manufactures a computer that

[41:24] mounts into the dashboard of a car. It's

[41:27] called AutoPC. Using data beamed over FM

[41:30] radio and satellite, it can alert

[41:32] drivers to traffic jams along their

[41:34] route. The system responds to voice

[41:37] commands.

[41:38] >> Select

[41:41] >> intersection state highway 522 and 68th

[41:45] Avenue Northeast.

[41:46] February 11th, 1999

[41:49] 10:13 a.m. Incident, slow traffic extent

[41:54] 1/4 mile duration 2 hours.

[41:56] >> The big question is, will commuters pay

[41:59] for all this? The price tag on the auto

[42:01] PC is between $1,500 and $2,000 to buy

[42:04] and install. Subscribers then pay

[42:07] another $5 a month for the traffic

[42:09] reports. Tom Shaftnet is with Q Data

[42:12] Network. The company beams the traffic

[42:14] data to auto PCs. He thinks the public

[42:17] is willing to pay for his service.

[42:19] >> The feedback we've been getting from the

[42:20] market is the level. We're talking about

[42:22] $60 a year is below the threshold of

[42:25] pain, if you will, for people. We think

[42:28] that a lot of people get this traffic

[42:29] service in using our data receivers and

[42:32] then they will want to have messaging

[42:34] services like email delivery to the auto

[42:36] PC or to handheld PCs or they'll want to

[42:39] have alpha numeric paging uh come onto

[42:42] their PCs and then capture that

[42:43] information. And so we think that, you

[42:45] know, the bundle of services is where

[42:47] we'll make money.

[42:48] >> Richard Gilman says it's worth $60 a

[42:51] year to receive traffic reports over his

[42:53] Palm Top computer.

[42:55] >> Uh, you know, if I have some day where

[42:56] I'm going to several places around the

[42:59] county or something like that, it's

[43:00] great, you know, for for checking, you

[43:03] know, sometimes, you know, well, I don't

[43:04] think I'm going to leave right now. It

[43:05] looks pretty bad traffic-wise.

[43:08] But David Hodgej, a transit expert at

[43:10] the University of Washington, doesn't

[43:12] think technology holds all the answers.

[43:15] >> At best, it's going to help us

[43:17] accommodate additional growth, maybe

[43:19] make it no worse than it is now for some

[43:21] number of years, but it's certainly not

[43:24] going to roll it back and and make it

[43:25] easier for us. Instead, Hodgej worries

[43:28] high-tech transportation tools used by

[43:30] Smart Trek may actually end up

[43:32] encouraging more drivers on the freeway.

[43:35] Already Seattle traffic is considered

[43:37] among the worst in the nation. Since

[43:39] 1970, the population around the Seattle

[43:42] metropolitan area has jumped more than

[43:44] 40% to about 3.2 million people. In that

[43:48] time, the number of cars has swelled 60%

[43:51] to 2.8 million vehicles.

[43:54] Across America, it's a similar story.

[43:57] According to the Federal Department of

[43:58] Transportation, traffic has grown 30% in

[44:01] just the past decade. Between now and

[44:04] the year 2008, the number of cars on the

[44:06] nation's roads is expected to increase

[44:09] by 50%.

[44:12] The University of Washington's David

[44:13] Hodgej says the money going to Smart

[44:15] Trek would be better spent on public

[44:17] transit or promoting alternative types

[44:19] of commuting such as car pooling, toll

[44:22] roads, or telecommuting. But he says

[44:25] even that won't have a major impact.

[44:27] Again, we're talking about singledigit

[44:30] changes typically in the proportion of

[44:32] people doing anything. We're not going

[44:34] to see a reduction in congestion. The

[44:36] question is, how can we cope with

[44:37] growth? Smart Trek planners remain

[44:40] convinced their program will reduce

[44:42] traffic delays. Similar systems are now

[44:44] being tested in Phoenix, San Antonio,

[44:47] and New York City. Other states may soon

[44:49] see their own programs. The federal

[44:52] department of transportation plans to

[44:53] install smart traffic systems in 75

[44:56] major cities by the year 2006.

[45:07] Finally, this Memorial Day, we repreeze

[45:09] a Gurgen dialogue. Two years ago, David

[45:12] Gurgen talked with historian Steven

[45:14] Ambrose. He had just published what

[45:16] would become a bestseller entitled

[45:18] Citizen Soldiers: The US Army from the

[45:21] Normandy beaches to the Bulge to the

[45:24] Surrender of Germany.

[45:27] >> Steve, in recent years, this country has

[45:29] twice celebrated the heroics of the men

[45:32] who took the beaches at Normandy in

[45:35] 1944. and appropriate celebrations. But

[45:38] now you come along and say there's a

[45:40] fascinating story about what happened

[45:42] after D-Day in the 11 months until the

[45:44] Germans surrendered.

[45:46] >> Well, we got a shore on D-Day and that

[45:48] was the big thing. It was a very tenuous

[45:50] hold, however, on the beach head and now

[45:51] the job was to expand it. It went very

[45:54] slowly because we had not recognized how

[45:56] tough those hedros were going to be to

[45:58] clear out of Germans. What was a hedro?

[46:00] Hedro is a mound of earth about six feet

[46:03] wide and four to six feet high with

[46:05] trees and brambles and rose bushes and

[46:08] etc going growing up it and it's

[46:10] impenetrable and it encloses little tiny

[46:13] fields. Now each one of those little

[46:14] fields was a fortress

[46:16] and the Germans were in the corners of

[46:18] the field with their machine guns dug in

[46:20] and they had dug tunnels through the

[46:21] dirt at the base of the hedro to sight

[46:24] their panzer fast their anti-tank

[46:26] rockets and so it and the Americans had

[46:29] had no preparation for this. We hadn't

[46:30] seen the hedros in an intelligence sense

[46:34] and hadn't done any training of them on

[46:36] how to fight there. So everything had to

[46:37] be improvised

[46:39] the use of tanks. Those tanks would get

[46:42] into the hedro country and drive up a

[46:44] hedro and expose their belly like this

[46:46] and the German panzer fou there would

[46:48] boom into that unarmored belly and there

[46:51] goes that Sherman tank.

[46:54] >> The solution to this problem came from a

[46:56] kid who had been a mechanic in Boston

[46:57] before the war. Joe Cullen was his name.

[47:00] He's a sergeant in one of the armored

[47:01] divisions. He said, "Let's take steel

[47:03] rails and weld them to the front of that

[47:05] tank and they'll dig into that hedro and

[47:07] it won't go belly up." And then those

[47:09] big Chrysler engines are powerful enough

[47:11] that it can go right through the hedge.

[47:12] And then at that point,

[47:14] >> they can start turning that cannon on

[47:15] the corners where the Germans are with

[47:17] their machine guns and they can start

[47:18] spraying the headro with their 50 cals

[47:21] >> and you can work your way forward in

[47:23] that way. Now, Raml didn't have a

[47:26] suggestion box outside his office door.

[47:29] Not the way the Germans fight a war.

[47:31] Bradley did. Cullen had that idea on a

[47:34] Monday. By Tuesday afternoon, it got

[47:36] into Bradley and by Wednesday morning,

[47:37] they were putting those steel rails onto

[47:39] those tanks and it worked. So, that kind

[47:41] of improvisation

[47:43] finally got us through the hedge. And at

[47:46] the end of July, the German line broke

[47:48] on the far right at San Low. They did

[47:51] trap most of the German army in

[47:53] Normandy.

[47:54] A lot of individuals got out, but the

[47:56] Germans were now disorganized. They had

[47:58] lost their unit cohesion and they left

[47:59] their equipment behind. And so now from

[48:02] mid August on, there was no opposition

[48:04] left in France. The battle of France was

[48:06] over. The Germans were in full retreat

[48:09] back eastward with the Allies coming as

[48:11] close behind him as they could.

[48:12] >> But they stopped them at the seed line.

[48:14] >> Well, then two things happened. The

[48:16] Germans got back to a prepared defensive

[48:17] position, the Seafooded line. all kind

[48:20] of fortifications. Hitler loved poured

[48:22] concrete. He thought poured concrete

[48:23] could stop anything. So they got back

[48:26] into prepared positions and they pulled

[48:27] off what they called the miracle of the

[48:29] west. The German army did in getting

[48:31] itself reorganized and coming back

[48:33] together and getting units to take

[48:36] positions in the line. The other thing

[48:37] that happened was that we ran out of gas

[48:40] literally. the the tanks were getting

[48:42] less and le as the line stretched out

[48:44] from the channel coast and as more and

[48:46] more Americans and Brits came onto the

[48:48] continent,

[48:50] the supply situation became critical. So

[48:52] we ran out of gas just at the point that

[48:54] the Germans got behind their

[48:55] fortifications and now a stalemate

[48:58] ensued. In fact,

[49:01] Hitler was gathering reserves and

[49:03] reinforcements and drawing men from the

[49:05] Eastern Front over to the Western Front

[49:07] and preparing for the last great German

[49:08] offensive of the 20th century. And now

[49:11] the Battle of the Bulge was underway. In

[49:13] the first few days of the battle of

[49:14] Bulge, the American army, which had

[49:16] become very cocky, was full of hubris

[49:18] and thought of itself as the best army

[49:20] in the world and had the best

[49:22] intelligence in the world, had been

[49:24] badly fooled and had been attacked where

[49:28] the men were spread out far too wide

[49:31] because nobody thought there would be an

[49:32] offensive in the Arans. The result was

[49:34] we lost two divisions on the first two

[49:36] days,

[49:37] >> big losses. And the result was there

[49:39] were breakthroughs. And the result was

[49:41] there were German tanks on the loose

[49:42] behind the front lines. And the result

[49:44] was a humiliation for American generals.

[49:47] And the result was a lot of GIS went

[49:49] into P camps and a lot of them got

[49:51] killed. So Hitler launched this attack

[49:53] with great initial success. And

[49:56] something close to panic set in on the

[49:59] Allied side. But the real story of the

[50:01] Bulge is the the one that captures

[50:04] everybody's imagination is Baston and

[50:05] the 101st Airborne being surrounded

[50:07] there. and rightly so, but it's a bigger

[50:09] story than that. It's an American

[50:10] lieutenant with a platoon over here and

[50:12] an American corporal with a squad over

[50:14] here saying that it's I ain't going to

[50:16] retreat no more. We're going to stand

[50:17] and fight here. And they held up German

[50:20] columns all across the front and threw

[50:22] the German timet completely out of

[50:24] Kilder and eventually some clear weather

[50:27] arrived and with clear weather trucks

[50:31] could move on the roads, planes could

[50:32] fly. It hit at the Germans and it was

[50:35] done and the Germans were hurled back

[50:37] from the Battle of the Bulge so that by

[50:39] January of 1945, the end of January, the

[50:42] lines were back to where they had been

[50:43] in September. Then they get to the Ryan

[50:46] River in March of 1945, the greatest

[50:48] river in Europe. And it looked like it

[50:51] was going to be a very, very tough

[50:52] proposition to get across this river and

[50:54] any bridge head over it would was going

[50:56] to be pure gold.

[50:58] An American lieutenant named Carl

[51:00] Timberman spotted the biggest bridge

[51:02] over the Ryan River. It was a railroad

[51:04] bridge, the Ludenorf bridge. Timberman

[51:05] saw it and without hesitating he took a

[51:07] squad that was a really wonderfully

[51:10] American squad. There was a Polish

[51:11] sergeant and an Irish corporal and a

[51:15] couple of Germans and an Indian in it

[51:17] and America. And Carl Timberman, German

[51:20] of course, German American, saw that

[51:23] bridge and he said, "Let's go." and he

[51:26] led his men across that bridge in one of

[51:28] the greatest actions of the Second World

[51:29] War, a machine gun fire cutting

[51:31] everywhere. They knew the bridge was

[51:32] scheduled to be blown up. They expected

[51:34] it to be blown in their faces. What

[51:36] apparently happened, David, was a stray

[51:38] bullet cut the wire leading out to the

[51:40] demolition charges.

[51:41] >> Mhm.

[51:42] >> Timberman got across, took the bridge.

[51:44] Now we were over the Rine, and then it

[51:45] was time for the exploitation and

[51:47] rolling across Germany till we met with

[51:49] the Red Army at the Elvie River in April

[51:51] of 1945.

[51:53] This

[51:55] this is a remarkable story. What did you

[51:58] learn about

[52:00] American character

[52:02] in this story of warfare from D-Day on?

[52:05] Well, you know, the fathers of the young

[52:07] men who fought World War II had fought

[52:08] World War I and they had a feeling

[52:11] similar the people of our age have about

[52:13] the young. They're not as tough anymore.

[52:15] They couldn't do what we did. And that

[52:18] was very much the feeling in 1940,44142.

[52:20] And it was certainly Himmer's feeling.

[52:24] Now you take these young Americans 1943

[52:26] they graduated high school. 1944 they

[52:29] graduated high school. 18 and 19 year

[52:30] olds drafted given insufficient and

[52:33] inadequate training not well clothed for

[52:36] the rigors of what they were going to

[52:38] face. Sent into the line as individual

[52:39] replacements in a foxhole in Belgium.

[52:42] Now, a foxhole in Belgium in the winter

[52:43] of 1944 45 meant

[52:46] down to 10 below in the Fahrenheit scale

[52:48] at night, about 40° in the daytime. That

[52:51] meant that your foxhole was alternating

[52:53] between 3 and 4 feet of water and ice.

[52:56] It meant your letter your the boots they

[52:59] had were all leather, so the boots froze

[53:01] at night on them. They did not have

[53:03] adequate overcoats. They didn't have

[53:05] adequate sleeping bags. They weren't

[53:06] getting any hot food. And it was dark

[53:09] starting at about 4:15 in the afternoon

[53:11] and it didn't get light again until

[53:13] about 8:30 in the morning. And they had

[53:15] to stay up all night and they couldn't

[53:16] move around, couldn't exercise, and

[53:19] couldn't smoke a cigarette, couldn't eat

[53:21] anything, had to be watching always for

[53:23] Germans coming on.

[53:25] >> Now, how did they do this? How did they

[53:28] do this?

[53:31] The strongest motivating factor

[53:34] was their buddies, the unit cohesion,

[53:37] the guys that they had trained with,

[53:39] gone overseas with, fought with, and

[53:41] what was unacceptable to the GI in that

[53:44] foxhole was letting his buddies down.

[53:47] They went into this combat with this

[53:50] fear that they were going to be afraid.

[53:52] Every combat veteran I've ever

[53:53] interviewed tells me his biggest fear on

[53:56] going into combat was that, that I'm

[53:57] going to be afraid. What every one of

[53:59] them found out was I'm afraid. Fear is

[54:02] inevitable. It's the natural reaction.

[54:04] The the point is you got to learn to

[54:06] control that fear and work with that

[54:08] fear and conquer that fear and act. And

[54:11] these guys were able to do it. And it in

[54:14] the end for me, the GI of World War II

[54:17] was a child of democracy

[54:20] who had grown up knowing the difference

[54:21] between right and wrong. And you know,

[54:23] I've had a lot of them tell me, "Steve,

[54:26] I was 19 years old. I was 20 years old.

[54:28] I had my life ahead of me. I didn't want

[54:29] to live in a world that would ever ruled

[54:31] Europe and was threatening the United

[54:33] States. I knew that if I were going to

[54:34] have a good life,

[54:36] >> we had to win this war and I had to do

[54:38] my part to see to it. They knew the

[54:39] difference between right and wrong and

[54:40] they didn't want to live in a world in

[54:41] which wrong prevailed.

[54:44] >> Steven Ambrose, fascinating story,

[54:47] fascinating man. Thank you very much.

[54:49] >> Thank you.

[54:50] >> Steven Ambrose's latest book is called

[54:53] Comrades: Brothers, Fathers, Heroes,

[54:55] Sons, and Pals. Again,

[55:03] the major stories of this Monday.

[55:05] Yugoslav media reported NATO bombs

[55:08] killed 26 civilians in two cities south

[55:10] of Bgrade. President Clinton in a

[55:13] Memorial Day speech called Kosovo a big

[55:15] test of what we believe in. And federal

[55:18] and state firefighters battle blazes in

[55:20] four states. We'll see you online and

[55:23] again here tomorrow evening. I'm

[55:25] Margaret Warner. Thank you and good

[55:27] night.

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[57:26] Next time on POV.

[57:28] >> Three strikes and you're out. Yes or no?

[57:31] >> Two fathers linked by tragedy.

[57:33] >> Our daughters were murdered by people

[57:34] that shouldn't have been out there to

[57:36] murder children.

[57:37] >> Become divided by conscience.

[57:39] >> They're leaving the door to the cage

[57:41] open for the animals to come out and get

[57:43] us.

[57:43] >> Maybe three strikes was not the ultimate

[57:45] answer.

[57:46] >> How justice, media, and politics collide

[57:49] on the legacy

[57:50] >> on OPV Tuesday at 10.

[57:56] Next time on Battlefield Vietnam,

[57:59] as the ground war intensifies,

[58:04] air support plays an increasingly vital

[58:06] role, expanding the conflict with

[58:09] bombing raids into North Vietnam, Laos,

[58:11] and Cambodia.

[58:13] The air war reaches its peak with

[58:15] Operation Rolling Thunder. Next time on

[58:19] Battlefield Vietnam

[58:21] >> on OPV Thursday at 10:30.

[58:28] Well, I saw a crown, but I'm out on the

[58:31] road