This Week (ABC) - 1992-03-08
Channel: malgent
Transcript
Language: English (original, YouTube automatic captions)
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[0:45] >> Is society too sensitive or not
[0:47] sensitive enough? Tonight on Town Hall
[0:52] from ABC News
[1:00] this week with David Brinkley. Now from
[1:03] our Washington headquarters, here's
[1:06] David Brinkley. Coming up, the big
[1:08] presidential primaries on Super Tuesday.
[1:11] Will Bush and Buchanan carry on their
[1:13] blood sport? Every day, Buchanan attacks
[1:15] a president who flatly refuses even to
[1:18] say his name, as if he didn't know how
[1:20] to pronounce it. Where is that going?
[1:22] For how long? Stay tuned. As for the
[1:25] Democrats, the field now seems to be
[1:27] down to three. Clinton, Sus, and Brown.
[1:30] One of them is our guest today. Paul
[1:32] Sunis, who became a candidate back in
[1:34] the days when President Bush after the
[1:36] Gulf War seemed unbeatable and nobody
[1:39] else wanted to take him on. and Richard
[1:41] Bunn, a longtime Republican activist and
[1:44] now chairman of the Republican National
[1:46] Committee. Some background from our man
[1:49] Jack Smith,
[1:51] and a discussion here with George Will,
[1:55] Sam Donaldelsson,
[1:57] and Cookie Roberts here on our Sunday
[2:00] program.
[2:02] First, a little news since the Sunday
[2:04] morning papers. In the last primaries
[2:06] and caucuses before Super Tuesday next
[2:08] week, President Bush won in South
[2:10] Carolina 67% to Pat Buchanan's 26. David
[2:15] Duke bombed out with 7%. Governor
[2:18] Clinton was first in the Democratic
[2:20] primary with 63%. Paul Sus second with
[2:23] 19. In the Arizona caucuses, Sus won
[2:26] with 34% to Governor Clinton's 29, Jerry
[2:30] Brown 28. In Wyoming, Clinton won with
[2:34] 29%, Jerry Brown 23 and uncommitted,
[2:38] still in a race 22%.
[2:41] Harkin 14, Sus 12. The New York Times
[2:45] reports that Governor Clinton, early in
[2:47] his tenure as governor, was in a
[2:49] business deal involving his wife and the
[2:51] owner of an Arkansas savings loan. ABC's
[2:54] Chris Buri has a report.
[2:57] The report surfaced just as Governor
[2:59] Clinton celebrated his big victory in
[3:01] the South Carolina primary. Today's New
[3:04] York Times raises questions about a real
[3:06] estate venture involving Governor
[3:08] Clinton, his wife Hillary, and the owner
[3:10] of an Arkansas savings and loan. In
[3:13] 1978, according to the Times, the
[3:16] Clintons entered a joint venture to
[3:18] develop Ozark vacation property with
[3:20] James McDougall, a former Clinton aid
[3:23] who owned a savings and loan. They
[3:25] formed a corporation, Whitewater
[3:27] Development. The article claims
[3:29] McDougall subsidized the corporation
[3:31] with money from his savings and loan,
[3:33] quote, ensuring that the Clintons were
[3:36] under little financial risk. As it
[3:38] turned out, the Clintons lost money and
[3:40] the corporation is no longer active. The
[3:43] deal raises questions according to the
[3:45] Times because after McDougall's savings
[3:47] and loan became insolvent and faced a
[3:50] possible shutdown by the state, Governor
[3:52] Clinton appointed a new state securities
[3:54] commissioner. The Times says the new
[3:56] commissioner then approved a plan to
[3:58] keep the business alive. A plan proposed
[4:01] by Clinton's wife, Hillary, whose law
[4:03] firm had been hired to represent the
[4:05] savings and loan. The questions raised
[4:08] by the article are whether a governor
[4:10] should be involved in a venture with the
[4:11] owner of a business regulated by the
[4:13] state and whether the governor's wife
[4:15] should get legal fees for work done for
[4:17] that business. Last night, Clinton was
[4:20] asked about his dealings with McDougall.
[4:22] >> Well, I've known him for 25 years. In
[4:25] the late 70s, he asked my wife and I if
[4:28] we would were interested in entering a
[4:29] land deal with him. We were in it. We
[4:32] never made any money out of it. We lost
[4:33] a lot of money in it. And we spent the
[4:36] last few years trying to get the records
[4:37] cleaned up, make sure at least they were
[4:39] in order.
[4:40] >> According to the report, questions about
[4:42] the Clinton's involvement may be
[4:43] difficult to answer because accounts of
[4:46] what happened differ and because some
[4:48] records are missing, but some of those
[4:50] questions may dog Mr. Clinton as he
[4:52] campaigns across Texas today. Chris
[4:55] Buri, ABC News, Houston.
[4:58] In the Gulf of Thailand, a ferry boat
[5:00] packed with tourists visiting a Buddhist
[5:02] shrine collided with an oil tanker sank
[5:05] quickly with passengers trapped inside.
[5:07] Nobody knows how many. So far, a 100
[5:10] bodies have been recovered. We'll be
[5:12] back with all the rest of today's
[5:14] program in a moment.
[5:19] This week with David Brinkley, brought
[5:22] to you by GE. From aircraft engines to
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[5:35] >> But I could not believe it when I ate
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[5:40] >> I have grown to like them quite a bit.
[5:41] We take them home and eat them pretty
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[5:45] They're just good. Oh, they'd get a 10
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[5:48] >> They're talking about it in the Midwest.
[5:50] >> It's quick. I know it's nutritious. It's
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[6:00] >> And soon it may be in the lips of people
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[6:02] >> If he says it's good, it is really good.
[6:05] >> You're welcome.
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[6:36] 6 months ago, it was thought we'd have
[6:38] very little or no contest for the
[6:41] presidency. Now we have contests or at
[6:43] least exchanges of insults in both
[6:45] parties and only one candidate so far
[6:48] has dropped out. Another is close to it
[6:50] for the usual reasons. No votes and no
[6:52] money. This could go on until
[6:54] California's primary in June. In the
[6:57] meantime, on Tuesday, 11 states choose
[7:00] 882 delegates. Some background from Jack
[7:04] Smith in Miami. Jack
[7:07] >> David, any hope that the field of
[7:09] candidates would sort itself out early
[7:11] faded this week.
[7:12] >> It's a little large, but the head's been
[7:14] expanding recently. Don't worry about
[7:15] it.
[7:17] >> Not only is Pat Buchanan staying in, but
[7:20] among Democrats, the contest looks like
[7:22] being a long one as well.
[7:23] >> For me, the fight simply is going to
[7:25] move on to new arenas.
[7:28] >> Bob Kerry dropped out after a poor
[7:30] showing in the early Western States. His
[7:32] campaign was almost a million dollars in
[7:34] debt. Tom Harkin, too, is out of cash
[7:37] and almost out of the race, but Jerry
[7:39] Brown had a surprise victory in
[7:41] Colorado.
[7:42] >> I'm running against a corrupt status
[7:45] quo.
[7:46] >> It gives him a big boost. But where does
[7:48] he go from here? Increasingly among
[7:50] Democrats, it's settling into a twoman
[7:53] race between Bill Clinton, who this week
[7:55] decisively won the Georgia and South
[7:57] Carolina primaries and Paul Sonis, whose
[8:00] victories in the Maryland and Utah
[8:02] primaries and the Washington state
[8:03] caucuses show he can win outside New
[8:06] England. The next round of contests is
[8:08] here in the South in two days time on
[8:10] Super Tuesday. It was designed to narrow
[8:12] the field and produce a nominee for the
[8:14] Democrats, but it probably won't work
[8:16] that way this year. And I want to tell
[8:18] you something. It's good to be back in
[8:19] Florida.
[8:19] >> The South is Clinton's home ground, and
[8:22] he has the edge here in money,
[8:23] organization, and support.
[8:26] >> I'm going to go with Clinton. I think
[8:27] that we can elect him
[8:29] >> and get the Republicans out.
[8:30] >> Clinton is attacking Songus as a backer
[8:33] of Republican style trickle down
[8:35] economics.
[8:35] >> Growth first, fairness later. Bull. We
[8:38] never had growth without fairness and we
[8:39] never will.
[8:41] And this week at the Dallas debate
[8:43] moderated by ABC's Peter Jennings,
[8:45] Clinton defended his support for a tax
[8:47] cut for the middle class.
[8:49] >> To say that this middle class tax cut
[8:51] number one is the center of anybody's
[8:53] economic package is wrong. And number
[8:55] two,
[8:55] >> a lot of people have that impression.
[8:56] I'm sure you know.
[8:57] >> Yeah. Thanks to his ad, which is false,
[8:59] which
[8:59] >> Sus has shown mounting annoyance with
[9:01] Clinton and this weekend took off the
[9:03] gloves, accusing Clinton of being
[9:05] unprincipled and pandering to voters.
[9:07] >> This is my opponent, Panda Bear.
[9:12] Tongus is fighting an uphill battle in a
[9:14] region where his pro business message
[9:16] may not sell.
[9:17] >> You're not going to persuade the average
[9:20] southern Democrat that Wall Street is
[9:22] going to make them well because they
[9:24] have been persuaded for at least six or
[9:26] seven generations that what Wall Street
[9:29] does is make them sick.
[9:31] >> Nevertheless, in the South, Sunis is
[9:33] making inroads, even if voters can't
[9:35] always pronounce his name.
[9:36] >> On the Democratic side, I would say uh
[9:39] Mr. Tongus is probably the closest to uh
[9:42] what I think
[9:43] >> Sonis that is now threatens Clinton in
[9:45] Florida, the least southern of the
[9:47] southern states.
[9:48] >> He's caught on with the uh kind of
[9:50] people who don't need organizations to
[9:52] get them out. The suburban well-educated
[9:54] uh in many case the foreign car driving
[9:57] uh uh yepy.
[9:59] >> And those areas voters, so Democrats
[10:02] look like they're locked in a fight that
[10:03] could last well into the spring. And the
[10:06] same is true of Republicans. Little
[10:08] chance of a knockout blow there either.
[10:10] >> We have done it again.
[10:12] >> Buchanan is showing a fairly consistent
[10:14] knack for getting about a third of the
[10:16] GOP vote even in states where he hasn't
[10:18] campaigned and there's no letup in his
[10:20] jabs at the president.
[10:22] >> Mr. Bush is in danger of becoming the
[10:23] Jimmy Carter of the Republican party.
[10:26] >> Is merit there?
[10:27] >> The president's campaign chairman in
[10:28] Florida, his son Jeb, says he's not
[10:30] concerned by Buchanan staying power. It
[10:33] doesn't bother you?
[10:34] >> No, I don't. As long as he doesn't I
[10:35] don't like people attacking my dad
[10:36] personally.
[10:38] but uh he is one of a long list of
[10:40] people that do that. So, you know, join
[10:42] the join the frey.
[10:44] >> But there's mounting evidence the White
[10:46] House is rattled. This week, for
[10:48] instance, the president backtracked on
[10:50] his 1990 budget deal with Congress,
[10:52] apologizing for it and calling it a
[10:54] mistake.
[10:55] >> Given all of that, yes, a mistake.
[10:57] >> Mr. Bush had till this week defended the
[10:59] budget deal. The New York Times called
[11:01] him President Noodle. And some think
[11:03] he's got problems. Buchanan's got a
[11:06] message and he's going to keep
[11:07] delivering that message and and um I
[11:09] think Republicans have to be concerned
[11:10] that the the president's bleeding very
[11:12] very very slowly and and how long is
[11:14] this going to last?
[11:15] >> What the pundits were confidently
[11:17] predicting just a few months ago would
[11:19] be a short dull run for the White House
[11:21] is now turning into a long tough
[11:23] campaign for both the incumbent and the
[11:26] wouldbe challengers. David
[11:28] >> Jack, thank you. Coming next, Richard
[11:30] Bond, a a Republican party activist and
[11:33] who is now chairman of the Republican
[11:35] National Committee. And shortly, the
[11:38] surprise candidate of 1992, Paul Sunis
[11:41] in a moment.
[11:45] Imagine
[11:49] your refrigerator with bigger door
[11:52] shelves
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[12:16] Eight years ago, BMW started a driving
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[12:20] >> The better a car feels to you, the
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[12:23] >> For BMW, a natural extension of an
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[12:29] >> That's quite a feeling to be able to go
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[12:31] >> A belief that a well-gineered automobile
[12:34] should do more than simply improve the
[12:36] driver's image.
[12:37] >> And I felt like I had control of the car
[12:39] instead of the car having control of me.
[12:41] >> A better driver. the ultimate goal of
[12:44] the ultimate driving machine.
[12:46] >> Advertising experts tell us that only
[12:48] one single point can be driven home in
[12:50] an ad. And the one point that the people
[12:51] at the Archer Daniels Midland Company
[12:53] want to make is that by putting gasoline
[12:55] containing 10% ethanol in your tank,
[12:57] you'll reduce carbon monoxide emissions
[12:59] by up to 25%. So remember, 10% in, gets
[13:03] up to 25% out.
[13:07] Uh it appears we have a little more
[13:09] time. So I'll add that uh ethanol is
[13:13] derived from surplus corn starch, a
[13:16] renewable domestic resource. And uh
[13:19] ethanol burns cleaner because it
[13:21] contains 34% oxygen, the highest oxygen
[13:23] level available in a fuel additive. But
[13:26] uh what we want you to remember is that
[13:28] 10% ethanol in gets up to 25% carbon
[13:32] monoxide out. 10% in gets up to 25% out.
[13:36] And that's a point about cars and
[13:39] gasoline that's well worth driving home.
[13:43] 8 a.m. Supermarket to the world.
[13:47] Six men want to live in this house for
[13:49] the next four years. There's only room
[13:50] for one. Tuesday, Americans from 11
[13:53] states help decide. Will the Democrats
[13:55] have a front runner? Can Bush shake
[13:57] Buchanan? Make sense of it all. Join
[13:59] Peter Jennings, David Brinkley, and the
[14:01] people of ABC News. Super Tuesday at 10,
[14:04] 9 central.
[14:08] Mr. Bond, thank you for coming.
[14:10] >> Good morning.
[14:10] >> Good morning. We're glad to have you
[14:12] with us. Here in the studio are George
[14:14] Will and Sam Donaldson, both of ABC
[14:18] News. Now, we've all been following your
[14:21] handiwork, or at least we're following
[14:22] the campaigns and will continue to. How
[14:24] do you how do you account for one thing?
[14:26] How do you account for so many people
[14:27] voting for uncommitted, which means
[14:29] voting essentially for nobody?
[14:32] >> Well, there's a protest vote out there.
[14:34] I think there's a protest vote out
[14:35] there, and we're comfortable with that.
[14:37] We're glad that people have an
[14:38] opportunity to voice their concerns. I
[14:40] think Pat Buchanan, in that respect, has
[14:42] done us a favor because it's a good
[14:44] vehicle for people to get this out of
[14:45] their system now, register their message
[14:47] with the president, and come home to him
[14:49] in the fall.
[14:51] >> He's got the message, and is he going to
[14:52] respond to it? And if so, how? Well,
[14:54] there's no doubt in my mind that he's
[14:56] got the message, and he had the message
[14:58] long before these results started to
[14:59] come in. He's given the Congress a
[15:01] challenge to pass a short-term econom
[15:04] economic recovery package within 100
[15:06] days. There are 12 days left on that
[15:09] deadline, and the Democrats are so far
[15:11] bringing us a tax increase. The House
[15:13] and Senate are currently arguing about
[15:15] how high that tax increase is going to
[15:17] be. I think that puts the president back
[15:19] on the political high ground when he
[15:21] vetos the Democrats tax increase. and
[15:23] again challenges America to say folks
[15:26] let's pick one way let's pick my way or
[15:28] let's pick the Democrat's way but you
[15:30] can't have both ways anymore well Mr.
[15:33] respond to your critics who not
[15:34] surprisingly are critical say that both
[15:36] of these tax plans are nickel and dime
[15:37] don't amount to anything and would have
[15:39] no effect on a recession. How do you
[15:41] respond to that?
[15:42] >> Well, I think I I think that what you've
[15:44] got to look at is the fact that that the
[15:46] consumers out there are worried. They're
[15:48] discontented. They're spooked in a way
[15:50] and they need to see their government
[15:51] pull together and give them something
[15:53] back for their tax dollars. Right now,
[15:56] the voters out there are just estranged
[15:58] from government as a whole. And if
[16:00] they're going to see the Congress go
[16:01] ahead and say that the answer to the
[16:03] economic problems right now is to raise
[16:05] taxes, I think that's going to ring very
[16:07] hollow with all Americans. Mr. Bond, I'd
[16:09] like to give you a chance to clarify the
[16:11] president's thinking on three subjects:
[16:13] taxes, the arts, and negative
[16:14] campaigning. First, with taxes. This
[16:17] week, the president said he's rather
[16:19] sorry he went in for the tax increase
[16:21] when he did. Uh he has, however,
[16:23] defended it as a good thing. And indeed,
[16:26] as I as I understand it, Mr. Brady and
[16:29] Mr. Darin, his principal economic
[16:30] adviser, still defend it. And the
[16:32] president said when explaining why he
[16:34] was recanting, he said it's the flack he
[16:36] got for it, which suggests that it's
[16:39] only the political reaction, not the
[16:40] fact itself. Can you tell us what he
[16:42] really thinks about this and if he
[16:43] agrees with Darmman and Brady?
[16:46] >> Well, I have talked to the president
[16:47] about this and think he feels very
[16:49] strongly about uh what happened was a
[16:52] mistake. And the reason it was a mistake
[16:54] is not because they tried to put uh some
[16:57] level of discipline in congressional
[16:58] spending. That was not the mistake. The
[17:00] mistake was in trusting the Democrats in
[17:02] Congress to adhere to that discipline.
[17:05] And the president in an act of political
[17:07] courage walked the gang plank on taxes
[17:09] and a whole lot of Republicans walked
[17:11] that gang plank with them and it cost
[17:13] them terribly politically. And it didn't
[17:15] do anything for the country. It didn't
[17:17] do anything for the country because the
[17:18] Democrats wouldn't cooperate and stick
[17:20] to the spending caps and stick to the
[17:22] stick to the disciplines that were put
[17:24] in there. That's why it was a mistake.
[17:26] >> Mr. Buchanan has been criticized for
[17:28] some of the ads he ran down south
[17:30] pertaining to government support for the
[17:32] arts. I know that you're familiar with
[17:34] these ads. Can you tell me where
[17:36] precisely uh President Bush differs with
[17:39] Mr. Buchanan and what Mr. Buchanan's
[17:42] saying about subsidizing the arts? Well,
[17:44] I I uh watched uh your program a couple
[17:47] of weeks ago uh George and David and and
[17:49] you all reluctantly reluctantly
[17:51] concluded as well that the government
[17:52] really didn't belong in the arts funding
[17:54] basis and I think that that is basically
[17:56] a thrust of what Pat Buchanan is saying.
[17:58] It's very tough to say what is art and
[18:00] what is not art and perhaps we ought to
[18:02] get out of that business. I think what
[18:03] the president is objecting to and what
[18:06] the problem is now is not the subject of
[18:07] the arts as much as it's the low road
[18:09] campaign that Pat has gone down ever
[18:12] since he's been in the south with uh
[18:14] increasing from xenophobia and isolation
[18:16] isolationism uh to race baiting and
[18:19] we're just not comfortable with that.
[18:20] >> Now you you're saying that the president
[18:21] is now forgetting the government out of
[18:23] the subsidizing of the arts.
[18:24] >> No, I I didn't say that. I said I think
[18:26] that was the thrust of of the argument
[18:28] at this point. The president will have
[18:29] to make a statement on that one way or
[18:31] the other. I kind of agree with the with
[18:33] uh with you folks about two weeks ago
[18:34] when you all concluded that the
[18:36] government ought to be out of the
[18:37] funding of the arts. I know Pat Buchanan
[18:38] feels that way about it.
[18:40] >> You've the president has expressed some
[18:41] dismay about uh what he considers
[18:43] negative campaigning and you have also.
[18:46] Uh the president of course won the New
[18:48] Hampshire primary many people believe in
[18:50] 1988 by attacking Senator Dole as
[18:52] Senator Straddle. That's a direct attack
[18:54] one Republican on another. Has he
[18:56] changed his standards?
[18:58] >> Well, it's not a standards change. I
[19:00] think you've got to look at what kind of
[19:01] appeal that Pat Buchanan is presenting
[19:04] right now to the American people and and
[19:05] the effect that has on the Republican
[19:07] party and I as chairman have got to
[19:09] comment on that is it's one thing to
[19:11] criticize a fellow Republican for their
[19:13] stand on taxes. It's another thing to go
[19:15] down the low road of race baiting and
[19:18] divisiveness. I think George Bush's
[19:20] message is a message of hope and
[19:21] opportunity. I think Pat Buchanan's
[19:23] message is degenerating into a message
[19:25] of anger and hate.
[19:27] >> Mr. Bond, you said a moment ago that it
[19:28] would come down to the Democrat's way or
[19:30] the president's way this fall. Yet, one
[19:33] of the Democrats who arguably could be
[19:35] the nominee, Paul Song, sounds a lot
[19:37] like the president's way when it comes
[19:38] to economics. He's for a capital gains
[19:41] tax cut. He's for other matters which
[19:43] some people say make him really a
[19:45] Republican. So, what's the case against
[19:47] Sonis? Should he be the nominee? Well, I
[19:50] think the case against Senator Sonis,
[19:51] who by the way I have an awful lot of
[19:53] respect for and who's run a brilliant
[19:54] campaign so far, is that uh you can't
[19:57] have just half that loaf. Senator Sonis
[19:59] goes far far hardle left on a number of
[20:02] social programs that the Republican
[20:04] party and the American people are just
[20:06] not comfortable with. So, it's one thing
[20:08] to sound like a Republican up in New
[20:09] Hampshire or on the economy, but there's
[20:11] a whole totality of issues that the
[20:13] American people are sensitive to in
[20:15] presidential campaigns. And I think that
[20:17] Senator Songis leaves their concerns
[20:19] behind as he drifts into the left on
[20:21] those issues.
[20:22] >> That may be, but I ask you about the
[20:23] economic case. Uh assuming that the
[20:26] recession, whether we're still in it or
[20:28] whether we're coming out of it, is going
[20:29] to be the determining factor this fall.
[20:31] What's the economic case against Paul
[20:33] Sonis?
[20:34] >> Well, I think that I think Senator Sis
[20:36] in the Senate has a number of uh of uh
[20:38] of sins as far as Republicans would be
[20:40] concerned in terms of his spending and
[20:43] tax uh policies as you have to examine
[20:45] his record. His record hasn't been very
[20:47] much on display yet in this campaign
[20:49] because for the most part until New
[20:51] Hampshire the Democrats really didn't uh
[20:53] didn't go after him and they're not
[20:54] going after him now in his economic
[20:56] proposals for the most part because
[20:57] they're going after him on some of his
[20:59] social proposals.
[20:59] >> Would he be the toughest person to run
[21:01] against or would Bill Clinton, Governor
[21:02] Clinton be the toughest opponent?
[21:04] >> Oh, I still like Jerry Brown in there,
[21:05] too. Remember that Lloyd Benson is fond
[21:07] of saying that if Jerry Brown is the
[21:09] answer, it must be an awfully weird
[21:11] question. So, let's not forget him.
[21:13] >> All right, we won't forget him. But, Mr.
[21:14] respond. When should Pat Buchanan, in
[21:16] your judgment, drop out of the race?
[21:18] >> I think you ought to drop out at the
[21:19] time that he's mathematically
[21:20] eliminated. Uh I respect that Pat's
[21:23] right to run, but I think when you come
[21:24] to the point in time when you're
[21:26] mathematically eliminated, which will
[21:28] take place sometime in May, I think
[21:29] sometime in May, that he ought to drop
[21:31] this uh drop this quest.
[21:32] >> Now, will you allow him to speak address
[21:35] the Republican National Convention?
[21:37] >> Well, I think that's something we have
[21:38] to talk about with Pat and with others
[21:42] down the line. The party rules, it bears
[21:44] mentioning now that the party rules
[21:45] established since 1972 indicate that to
[21:48] have your name placed in nomination at
[21:50] the convention, you've got to have the
[21:52] majority of five state delegations. That
[21:54] is, you've got to win five states. Now,
[21:57] I don't think Pat's going to win five
[21:58] states. So, that subject is going to be
[22:00] up for discussion.
[22:01] >> Your decision, as I understand it,
[22:03] whether he will be able to address the
[22:04] convention absent what you just said.
[22:06] Well, are you going to allow him to
[22:07] speak? Are you going to shut it down?
[22:08] >> I've got an open I've got an open mind
[22:10] on that question right now. No decisions
[22:12] have been made.
[22:13] >> You you said a moment ago in a question
[22:16] earlier on, you said that Pat Buchanan
[22:19] is taking a a race baiting and
[22:21] hatefilled road. Now, why would you want
[22:23] someone like that addressing the
[22:26] Republican convention and can you
[22:27] justify that? Tell us where you think
[22:29] he's taking a doing race baiting. Well,
[22:32] I am I am very uncomfortable in
[22:34] particular with a comment that Pat
[22:36] Buchanan made the other day in Georgia
[22:38] at a rally where there was some Jewish
[22:39] protesters and Pat Buchanan looked over
[22:42] them and kind of sneered and said this
[22:44] this rally is for Americans only and for
[22:46] the good old USA. Now, his people later
[22:48] on have explained he meant nothing by
[22:50] that. I question that. I question
[22:52] whether or not Pat was deliberately
[22:54] trying to antagonize those Jew Jewish
[22:56] demonstrators by implying that they
[22:58] weren't Americans. I am just very very
[23:00] uncomfortable with that and think that
[23:01] that is not the face of the Republican
[23:03] party uh that we want to have. So I'm
[23:05] simply pointing out as Republican party
[23:07] chairman uh clean up the language a
[23:09] little bit. I think that there are some
[23:10] very good parts of Pat Buchanan's
[23:12] message particularly as it relates to
[23:14] government, the size of government and
[23:15] the ineffectiveness of government. But
[23:17] if he's going to basically hijack David
[23:19] Duke's message on race and religious
[23:22] tolerance and put a jacket and tie on it
[23:24] and try to clean it up, I'm just not
[23:25] comfortable with that.
[23:26] >> Mr. Bond, thank you. Thanks very much
[23:28] for coming. Pleased to have you with us
[23:29] today.
[23:30] >> Thank you.
[23:31] >> Coming next, former Senator Paul Sungas
[23:33] in a moment.
[23:39] >> Every 7 seconds of every day, someone is
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[24:40] This week with David Brankley will
[24:42] continue in a moment.
[24:46] >> Monday, how did an experiment change
[24:48] their minds about drinking? Then has he
[24:50] found the secret to selling American
[24:52] cars? Plus, Gina Davis on Good Morning
[24:54] America Monday.
[24:56] >> Bankruptcy. It can ruin your life.
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[25:23] >> I'm glad I did.
[25:25] >> Tonight on Town Hall,
[25:27] >> it's unfortunate that the teams were
[25:29] ever called I don't think
[25:31] that's a very complimentary name.
[25:32] >> The sports names ought to stay. They're
[25:34] a tradition in our country.
[25:36] >> I think society's become a bunch of cryb
[25:38] babies.
[25:38] >> Native Americans say they are insulted
[25:41] by team nicknames. The Oregonian decided
[25:43] not to print certain names. Critics say
[25:46] people are overreacting. Are we too
[25:49] sensitive or not sensitive enough? Thin
[25:51] Skins tonight at 6 on Town Hall.
[25:55] >> Join Steve Dunn for Channel 2 News
[25:57] Sundays at 5 and 11.
[26:06] >> Mr. Sun, thank you for coming.
[26:08] >> Good morning.
[26:09] >> Good morning. We're pleased to have you
[26:10] with us. We had a man, maybe you saw a
[26:12] minute ago, we had a man here who
[26:14] referred to you as Mr. Tongus. Does that
[26:17] bother you that people don't know how to
[26:19] pronounce your name?
[26:20] >> Uh, let me tell you, David, if my name
[26:22] was Smith, I would not have been elected
[26:24] to the Senate. The ad we used in 1978
[26:27] were people mispronouncing my name. And
[26:30] the last one was a little child who
[26:31] called me tickets. And I've forever been
[26:34] known as tickets in Massachusetts. So,
[26:36] um, I accept it as it comes.
[26:38] >> Well, this seems not to have hurt you.
[26:40] his ticket was punched in Massachusetts
[26:42] that year.
[26:42] >> And now
[26:44] >> I would tell you that that the Senate
[26:45] president in Massachusetts, who's a dear
[26:47] friend of mine, still calls me Zongis.
[26:49] And once people get the wrong
[26:51] pronunciation in their heads, it just
[26:53] like it it's like cannot come off. So
[26:55] it's I've learned to live with that.
[26:57] >> So long as they vote right, you don't
[26:58] care, do you?
[26:59] >> That's exactly right.
[27:00] >> All right. Well, I want to ask you this.
[27:01] When you were in the Senate, your voting
[27:03] record was very little different from
[27:04] that of Senator Kennedy, who is a model
[27:07] M1 perfect liberal Democrat. you have
[27:10] changed since then. What changed you?
[27:13] >> Well, if you go back and read the book
[27:15] that I wrote 1981 called the road from
[27:17] here, I was making exactly the same
[27:19] arguments in that book that the
[27:21] Democrats have to be pro-economic
[27:23] growth, have to reach out to the
[27:25] business community and basically took
[27:27] very much the same positions that are in
[27:29] this recent book, a call to economic
[27:30] arms. But the fact is on on social
[27:33] issues, and I think Mr. Bond was
[27:35] correct, I am a liberal. I make no
[27:37] apologies for that. And obviously that's
[27:39] where they're going to come after me um
[27:40] after the nomination.
[27:42] >> Well, some Democrats are very
[27:43] uncomfortable with you because you're
[27:45] they feel your views are more like those
[27:48] of a Republican.
[27:50] >> Well, is that Are you going to because
[27:52] of your success? Do you think the party
[27:54] might change its spots a little bit?
[27:56] >> It has to. I mean, the fact is that the
[27:58] old ideology, if you look back on
[28:00] presidential races, we've lost, we've
[28:02] lost, we won, then we lost, we lost, we
[28:04] lost. I mean, you don't have to be a
[28:06] rocket scientist to figure out that that
[28:08] is a losing track. And the fact is that
[28:10] I can appeal to independents uh and to
[28:13] thoughtful Republicans. I mean, I won
[28:14] the Washington uh caucuses and I won
[28:17] Arizona yesterday because Republicans
[28:19] could walk in and vote for me. So, it
[28:21] seems to me if you're going to beat
[28:23] George Bush, the question is who is the
[28:25] strongest candidate who can reach beyond
[28:27] the Democratic core? And I think a
[28:29] pro-economic growth message has
[28:31] resonance. If you look for example the
[28:33] endorsements that came out today and
[28:35] this is the first time in my life that
[28:37] I've been uh in Tennessee and yet I was
[28:39] endorsed this morning by the
[28:41] Tennesseeian because of the economic
[28:42] message
[28:44] >> newspaper in Nashville.
[28:46] >> That's right. And the St. Petersburg
[28:48] Times this morning the Tampa Tribune
[28:50] newspapers in Texas because of the
[28:52] message. You know, I acknowledge that I
[28:54] don't have the endorsements or the money
[28:56] that that Bill Clinton has in the
[28:58] Democratic party, but I think ultimately
[29:00] messages have have power, have have a
[29:02] capacity to travel.
[29:03] >> Senator, this week you landed on Mr.
[29:05] Clinton calling him a panda bear who's
[29:07] cynical and principled and will say
[29:09] anything to get uh elected. And what
[29:11] provoked you was his endorsement of an
[29:13] electric boat project, the Seawolf
[29:15] submarine that's important to both Rhode
[29:17] Island and Connecticut, where upcoming
[29:18] primaries are. Long introduction to the
[29:21] following question. primaries are coming
[29:23] up in Michigan and in Florida. And I
[29:25] want to give you a chance to offend
[29:26] somebody if if you're of that mind.
[29:28] First of all, in Florida, of course,
[29:30] there's a large Jewish vote. Uh tell us
[29:32] what you think about uh the West Bank.
[29:35] Do Jews do Israelis have a right to live
[29:38] and settle on the West Bank?
[29:41] >> Yes, they do. And the fact is that um if
[29:44] I could get into it for a moment that
[29:47] there's a pamphlet being distributed
[29:49] today in Florida questioning my support
[29:51] of Israel. Now Bill Layman who's the
[29:53] congressman from South Florida endorsed
[29:55] me yesterday was about as staunch your
[29:57] support of Israel as anybody. Now let me
[29:59] give you an example of what's going on.
[30:02] The pamphlet says it it quotes a vote of
[30:04] mine back a number of years ago during
[30:06] the Carter administration where I voted
[30:09] not to cut off aid to Syria. And so that
[30:11] is given out as an impression to be
[30:13] given that I support Syria. What is not
[30:16] being told by the Clinton people is that
[30:19] six out of the seven Jews in the Senate
[30:22] voted with me. It was an attempt to
[30:24] reach out to Syria during that period of
[30:26] time when they were being more
[30:28] reasonable. That's the kind of thing
[30:30] that's the kind of thing that's going on
[30:31] and I object to it.
[30:32] >> Who put out the pamphlet? Do you know?
[30:34] >> The Clinton people. It was it was given
[30:36] to me by a newspaper reporter yesterday.
[30:39] Now passing on, I mean some people would
[30:41] say that you have just pandered, would
[30:43] they not, to the Jewish vote?
[30:45] >> No, I when when I disagreed with Israel,
[30:47] I said so. Remember back in 1982 when
[30:51] Israel went into Lebanon, I had no
[30:53] objection because they were being bombed
[30:56] by going into Lebanon and making a
[30:58] security zone. What I objected to and
[31:00] spoke out against was going into Beirut.
[31:03] Now, I was in Beirut during the bombing.
[31:05] I saw it. I was the only senator who was
[31:07] in there and I saw what was going on and
[31:09] I spoke out against it.
[31:10] >> Let's move on.
[31:11] >> I'm a strong supporter of Israel's
[31:13] survival and have voted that way.
[31:15] >> Let's move on.
[31:15] >> But I'm not someone I think you know my
[31:17] my modus operand. If I agree that I'm
[31:21] supportive. If there are issues I
[31:22] disagree with someone on, I'm going to
[31:24] say so.
[31:24] >> Let's move on to Michigan where Senator
[31:26] Regal of Michigan in the finance
[31:28] committee uh got got into the bill a
[31:31] measure that would reclassify many
[31:33] Japanese minivans. uh as trucks instead
[31:37] of cars. This would have the consequence
[31:39] of increasing the tariff from I guess
[31:41] 2.5% to 25%. A substantial protectionist
[31:45] measure and doubtless very popular in
[31:47] the state of Michigan.
[31:48] >> Opponents say look these minivans haul
[31:51] kids not concrete. They're cars. Uh
[31:53] you're a free trader. Where do you stand
[31:55] on that? Well, I would probably look at
[31:57] scans, but as I understand the issue,
[31:59] now again, I don't pretend to be an
[32:02] expert that as I understand what was
[32:04] told to me some days ago was that the
[32:06] Japanese in essence have had it both
[32:08] ways that it was classified one way when
[32:10] it first came in and then classified a
[32:12] different way. So, they've ended up with
[32:14] the best of both worlds. Again, I don't
[32:16] pretend to be an expert, but I think
[32:18] there should be some even-handed policy
[32:20] here. and but I don't end up um with the
[32:23] kind of policies that are suggested. It
[32:26] seems to me the way you beat the
[32:27] Japanese ultimately is simply build a
[32:28] better automobile.
[32:29] >> One question on the subject that George
[32:31] raised concerning Israeli settlements in
[32:33] the West Bank in Gaza. Do you agree with
[32:35] the administration that Israel should
[32:38] not receive the $10 billion loan
[32:40] guarantees from the United States unless
[32:42] she agrees to halt building settlements
[32:45] there? Sam, I was in the United States
[32:47] Senate when Jackson Vanic was the
[32:50] cornerstone of our relationship with the
[32:52] Soviet Union. Basically, what we said to
[32:54] the Soviets was if you do not allow the
[32:56] Jews to immigrate, you have no viable
[32:59] relationship with the United States.
[33:01] Now, you have a changed Soviet
[33:02] structure. They're allowing the Jews to
[33:04] immigrate. So, the loan guarantees, I
[33:06] think, are essential to that. Now, the
[33:08] settlements are going to have to be an
[33:09] issue that's going to be talked about. I
[33:10] mean, at some point, there has to be
[33:12] resolution of that. My difficulty with
[33:15] what's going on now in the discussions,
[33:17] I don't believe they're going to work.
[33:18] What I have called for, if I can just do
[33:20] in 10 quick seconds,
[33:22] >> you can take whatever time you need as
[33:23] long as you eventually, if you will,
[33:25] sir, answer the question that I ask.
[33:28] What I'm calling for is a Middle Eastern
[33:30] common market where you take the two
[33:31] entities and lock them together in
[33:33] economic terms and then they can
[33:35] negotiate on the on the issue of the
[33:38] settlements because then they have a
[33:39] self-interest in each other which at
[33:41] this point you have entities that are
[33:42] out here. All you do is change one
[33:44] leader and it falls apart.
[33:46] >> Well, does that mean
[33:47] >> I I do not I do not support the
[33:49] administration's position that they
[33:50] should stop the settlements at this
[33:52] point. I think the settlements are going
[33:53] to be a problem, but they have to be
[33:55] negotiated between the parties and not
[33:57] imposed upon by the United States as
[34:00] well.
[34:00] >> You would extend the $10 billion loan
[34:02] guarantees and not require Israel to
[34:04] stop the settlements.
[34:05] >> That's right. But I would also put in
[34:06] motion day one the economic common
[34:09] market in the Middle East to force these
[34:10] countries together economically.
[34:12] >> Okay. You say that the Bush
[34:14] administration this fall, if you're the
[34:15] nominee, will run against you on on your
[34:17] social u Yes.
[34:19] >> issues and your record there. So, let me
[34:21] ask you about
[34:22] >> I I do I do the same thing if I were
[34:24] them.
[34:25] >> Well, you think it's effective, do you?
[34:26] >> You think that would be effective?
[34:28] >> Let me just bring up the one I had in
[34:30] mind. Gay rights. Okay.
[34:31] >> You you viferously say you are for gay
[34:33] rights. What gay rights are you for? And
[34:36] are there any so-called gay rights that
[34:39] you oppose?
[34:41] >> Well, my view, I filed the gay rights
[34:43] bill a long time ago. There's no
[34:44] political advantage to doing that. But I
[34:46] am adamant in my view that we have to be
[34:49] one people, a healed people. And if
[34:51] we're talking about being Americans, my
[34:52] view, as I say on the stump, everybody's
[34:55] in, nobody's out. And that includes
[34:57] whether you talk about race or sexual
[34:59] orientation, whatever, everybody's going
[35:01] to be part of this race. We are
[35:03] competing with the Japanese and the
[35:05] Germans. And to the extent you exclude
[35:07] anybody, anybody who has merit and can
[35:09] contribute, then you simply have a
[35:11] lesser country. So on on individual
[35:14] rights, on women's rights, on civil
[35:16] rights, on human rights, I'm adamantly
[35:18] and aggressively pro-inclusionary.
[35:20] >> All right. So environmental issues, etc.
[35:23] >> You you're for gay people marrying
[35:25] openly, not having any restrictions from
[35:27] the standpoint of the law or social
[35:29] conscience.
[35:31] >> Well, I don't know what you mean by
[35:32] social conscience. The fact is people
[35:34] who are gay are gay.
[35:35] >> Well, many many churches, for instance,
[35:36] uh oppose marriage between people of the
[35:40] same sex. And I was including that when
[35:43] I talked about social conscience.
[35:44] >> Yeah. Well, I guess I disagree. The fact
[35:47] is that people who are gay are gay and
[35:50] they have to live their lives as well.
[35:52] And somehow to say that they're not
[35:54] Americans is not equal to anybody else.
[35:56] You have all these people who have been
[35:59] identified um as being gay who are major
[36:02] contributors in the United States. And
[36:04] it seems to me that to the extent you
[36:06] exclude anybody from Americana, you
[36:08] simply have a lesser country. And I'm
[36:10] not going to back down on those kinds of
[36:12] commitments.
[36:13] >> Now, you say that Governor Bill Clinton
[36:15] is uh unprincipled. What do you mean
[36:18] unprincipled?
[36:19] >> Well, that Seawolf issue really, you
[36:22] know, drove me over the edge. The
[36:24] Seawolf, as you know, is a submarine
[36:26] that is designed to go after Soviet subs
[36:29] in the North Atlantic. Well, those subs
[36:31] are not being built by the Soviets
[36:32] anymore. And so when Bill Clinton came
[36:36] up for the submarines in the debate, I
[36:38] mean, it just did not fit given what's
[36:40] going on with the end of the Cold War,
[36:43] all of that kind of thing. Well, it's
[36:44] pretty obvious what happened. Well, that
[36:46] is that.
[36:46] >> If I may, Senator,
[36:48] >> if I may, Senator, you may argue that he
[36:50] was, you've used the word pandering. You
[36:52] may argue that if you want, but but what
[36:53] is unprincipled about saying I advocate
[36:57] a submarine program? Because in this
[37:00] particular case, it's not just you're
[37:01] pandering to the votes in Connecticut
[37:03] and Rhode Island and a and a and a sub
[37:05] that that the administration is opposed
[37:07] to and rescended the money for, but Bill
[37:09] Clinton knows, as I know, that with
[37:11] George Bush opposed to building more of
[37:13] these submarines, they're never going to
[37:14] be built. So, in essence, giving the
[37:17] people in Connecticut and Rhode Island
[37:18] the hope that if he becomes president
[37:21] somehow magically, despite the Congress,
[37:23] that this submarine is going to be built
[37:25] is cruel. You're talking about people's
[37:27] lives, the capacity to provide for their
[37:30] children and to give these people this
[37:32] false hope. That's not just pandering. I
[37:34] mean that I object to that. I mean,
[37:37] argue with me on the middle class tax
[37:38] cut, argue with me on these other
[37:40] issues, but that crosses the line. That
[37:42] goes beyond pandering. That's a matter
[37:44] of principle.
[37:45] >> Senator, let's talk for a moment on the
[37:47] craft subject of delegates. The some
[37:49] people feel that once someone gets to 40
[37:52] 41 42% of the delegates needed to
[37:54] nominate a snowball effect will develop
[37:56] and they say that the so-called
[37:59] superdelegates party leaders some
[38:00] members of Congress governors elected
[38:02] Democrats
[38:04] are really there as superdelegates to
[38:06] make the snowball roll to bring the the
[38:09] process to closure among superdelegates.
[38:12] Uh Mr. Clinton seems to have a
[38:14] considerable advantage. Do you dispute
[38:16] that and and what conclusion do you draw
[38:17] from that?
[38:18] >> Well, I think you're exactly right. The
[38:20] fact is that the party apparatus I'm the
[38:22] agent of change. I'm trying to bring a
[38:24] new economics to the Democratic party
[38:26] and the fact is, you know, it's really
[38:27] the machine against the message and the
[38:30] fact is that most of the Democratic
[38:32] governors, senators, members of Congress
[38:34] are with Bill Clinton. Doesn't mean that
[38:36] they believe that he has the better
[38:38] message. They don't. But look, look at
[38:40] all these endorsements and editorial
[38:41] endorsements. I think I can make the
[38:44] best case against George Bush. And
[38:46] ultimately what I'm going to say to
[38:47] these superdelegates is who do you want
[38:50] to be your candidate? Someone who can
[38:52] appeal to independents and Republicans
[38:54] as well or someone that you are more
[38:56] comfortable with because indeed Bill's
[38:59] politics and in his policies are very
[39:01] democratic in the traditional sense. So
[39:03] I as an agent of change do have that
[39:06] difficulty and I acknowledge that.
[39:07] >> I just have another question, Senator.
[39:09] Do you think Bill Clinton, Governor
[39:10] Clinton is electable? And if you say
[39:12] he's electable, how can a man who's
[39:14] unprincipled be electable?
[39:16] >> Well, I mean, there's just been too many
[39:18] issues come out. I think there are two
[39:20] factors. One,
[39:21] >> is he electable?
[39:23] >> I don't think so. I do not
[39:25] >> as electable. Let me revise that. The
[39:28] question in my mind, who is more
[39:30] electable against George Bush? And I
[39:32] believe that I am. Whether he is
[39:34] electable against George Bush, you know,
[39:36] who knows what happens down the road.
[39:38] >> Well, can an unprincipled person be
[39:39] elected? I suppose in our history it's
[39:42] happened. But I mean,
[39:43] >> Sam, of all the people,
[39:44] >> you understand the question, Senator,
[39:46] how can you during during these
[39:48] primaries go after each other hammer and
[39:49] tong? You've called him unprincipled,
[39:51] cynical. You say that he uh he's a race
[39:54] baiter. How can a person like that be
[39:57] elected?
[39:57] >> No, I I did not call him a race baiter.
[39:59] I objected to his reference to me is not
[40:01] American in my economic policies. But
[40:03] let me tell you that this has not been a
[40:05] very pleasant campaign. You know, once I
[40:08] won in New Hampshire, it became very
[40:10] negative. And I have called repeatedly
[40:12] to all the candidates, let's stop. And
[40:14] I've I've tried to get them all to take
[40:16] the pledge. No more negative
[40:18] campaigning. Let's go on our issues. For
[40:20] me, this particular approach is harmful
[40:22] because I have a message. And to the
[40:24] extent I am forced into response, I'm
[40:27] off my message. And that hurts me.
[40:29] >> George, we got a few seconds. You
[40:30] >> very briefly, one of the negative things
[40:32] Mr. Clinton's been saying about you is
[40:34] is that you said something sinful when
[40:36] you said you would be the best candidate
[40:39] that Wall Street ever had. Now, some
[40:41] people hear that and they say, "Well,
[40:42] that just means stocks and bonds are
[40:44] going to go up and that's a good thing."
[40:46] Can you unpack the meaning behind that
[40:48] sinful statement?
[40:50] >> Well, you know what's ironic about that
[40:51] statement is that Bill's been raising
[40:53] money in Wall Street for months. I
[40:55] finally had my first u fundraiser in
[40:58] Wall Street about four days ago and it
[41:00] was done by a Greek restaurant owner. So
[41:03] I'm highly the candidate of Wall Street.
[41:05] What I said was to American business,
[41:07] I'm going to be your best friend because
[41:09] I'm going to make you profitable. That's
[41:10] the good news. The bad news is I'm going
[41:12] to hold you to a much higher standard of
[41:15] corporate giving, social responsibility,
[41:17] environmental protection, that kind of
[41:19] thing. And and that's the fact, but
[41:21] obviously that's not going to be in a
[41:23] Bill Clinton ad. Mr. Sonus, thank you.
[41:25] Our time is up. Thanks very much for
[41:26] being with us. Been a pleasure to have
[41:28] you here.
[41:29] >> Thank you.
[41:30] >> Coming next, our discussion here and
[41:32] nobody knows what that'll be about in a
[41:34] moment.
[42:03] The GE 2800 dishwasher. It does almost
[42:06] everything but clear the table.
[42:18] >> To you. This may be just a bushel of
[42:20] corn,
[42:24] but to us at the Archer Daniels Midland
[42:26] Company, it's enough pure golden corn
[42:29] oil to make 2 lb of margarine.
[42:34] It's also enough protein meal to raise
[42:36] three chickens.
[42:40] We even capture the surplus heat
[42:43] generated during processing and use it
[42:45] to accelerate the hydroponic growth of
[42:47] fresh vegetables.
[42:49] From what's left, we distill 2 and 1/2
[42:52] gallons of ethanol used to make cleaner
[42:54] burning high octane gasoline to help
[42:56] improve the environment.
[42:59] So, you see, we get both food and fuel
[43:02] from each bushel of corn.
[43:06] One more reason why ADM is known as
[43:09] supermarket to the world.
[43:19] >> Happy birthday
[43:21] to you.
[43:24] Happy birthday
[43:26] to you.
[43:29] Happy birthday
[43:32] dear Lisa.
[43:35] Happy birthday
[43:38] to you. Y
[43:45] >> Sunday cobra viper python
[43:51] powerful and deadly.
[43:54] >> This is a snake of almost mythological
[43:56] proportions.
[43:56] >> Realm of the serpent on ABC's World of
[43:58] Discovery Sunday.
[44:01] And joining us will be Koki Roberts of
[44:03] ABC News. I forgot to say that. Koke.
[44:05] >> Oh dear.
[44:06] >> You're here. Okay.
[44:07] >> Yes, I am.
[44:08] >> All right. You want to hear a little
[44:09] more about politics? When is is when
[44:11] should Pat Buchanan drop out? If he
[44:13] should, George, what do you think?
[44:14] >> Well, he drops out when, by the
[44:16] rationale of his campaign, it's no
[44:18] longer working. But the question is, is
[44:21] he running to get nominated? I think
[44:22] not. Is he running to hold up a flag
[44:26] that will become identified with him so
[44:28] that he can be the the inheritor of the
[44:30] conservative cause in 96? I think that's
[44:32] why he's running. Therefore, there's no
[44:34] reason why he should stop uh until he
[44:36] goes right through.
[44:37] >> Well, there is an argument though,
[44:38] George. I mean, Buchanan has become the
[44:40] general jubilee t cornbone of this
[44:42] campaign. You go from defeat jubilation.
[44:46] >> Well, I gave him even a higher ele
[44:50] play by Al Cap. That was a lot of fun.
[44:52] But he he goes from defeat to defeat to
[44:55] defeat. And it's clear he's not going to
[44:56] be the nominee. And it's clear he's not
[44:58] going to blood George Bush any more than
[45:00] he has from the standpoint of
[45:01] demonstrating what others have said.
[45:04] Bush runs against uncommitted and 30% of
[45:07] the vote is against him in the
[45:08] Republican primaries. Bush is going to
[45:10] be the nominee. But if Buchanan keeps on
[45:13] and keeps on, he gives the Democrats
[45:15] ammunition in the fall. They run the
[45:17] Buchanan ads. They run Pat Buchanan on
[45:19] the stump.
[45:20] >> And he has been rough. He really has
[45:22] been rough, much rougher than any of the
[45:24] Democrats have been towards each other
[45:25] >> all his life. Koke, that's Patan's MO.
[45:28] >> I thought it was interesting though that
[45:29] Rich Bond, the Republican chairman, said
[45:31] that he should get out when it's
[45:33] numerically impossible for him to win.
[45:35] And the Republicans are much smarter
[45:37] about that than the Democrats are. Most
[45:39] of their primaries are winner take all
[45:41] primaries. So that even if Pat Buchanan
[45:44] is getting 30% of the vote here, 30% of
[45:47] the vote there, he's not getting any
[45:48] delegates. And uh soon, very soon, the
[45:51] president will have enough delegates in
[45:53] another month or two that he will have
[45:55] the nomination. The Democrats, on the
[45:57] other hand, have now rules that make it
[46:00] harder and harder and harder to get to
[46:02] the point where somebody has the
[46:03] majority of delegates so that they can
[46:05] get all the way to the convention
[46:07] without knowing who that person is.
[46:09] >> Sort of a stress test. Yeah. I don't
[46:11] think it's going to do Mr. Buchanan any
[46:12] good four years from now? Because the
[46:14] more you see of Pat Buchanan, the more
[46:16] you see of this rough side and the more
[46:18] you understand his views on other issues
[46:21] than the economy and and I think he's
[46:24] not David Duke, but I think he's closer
[46:26] to David Duke than the mainstream of the
[46:28] Republican party and in 70 96 he's not
[46:30] going to be nominated.
[46:31] >> If Pat were primarily motivated by a
[46:34] visceral uh concern for the Republican
[46:37] party, then he would probably get out
[46:40] soon. But Mr. Buchanan is primarily a
[46:43] movement conservative. That is he
[46:46] identifies with groups and individuals
[46:48] and institutions and events outside the
[46:50] Republican party and therefore I think
[46:51] appeals to his loyalty to the Republican
[46:53] party are one of the leading
[46:56] conservatives.
[46:57] Does the movement conservative identify
[46:59] with Pat Buchanan?
[47:00] >> I think uh to a large extent they do.
[47:03] They agree with a lot of what he says
[47:05] but they disagree with George Bush. So
[47:07] there's a great sense that Mr.
[47:08] Buchanan's carrying their water even
[47:10] when they don't agree with them.
[47:11] >> He might have also done the Republican
[47:13] party a great service in that David Duke
[47:16] went nowhere in South Carolina
[47:18] yesterday.
[47:19] >> 7% of the vote
[47:20] >> and Pat Buchanan has shown that the
[47:23] protest votes will go pretty much
[47:25] anywhere. What you what you have with
[47:27] David Duke in Louisiana was an enormous
[47:29] protest vote and uh and those protesters
[47:32] are willing to pull any protest lever.
[47:35] It was not so strongly David Duke. was
[47:37] much more the question of liking the way
[47:40] imagine if David Duke were getting 20 25
[47:42] 30% and he could be primary and he could
[47:45] be because what we've learned is
[47:46] uncommitted gets 25 30% of the vote
[47:49] against this point I think the most
[47:51] important question for Buchanan to
[47:53] consider is not whether he can run and
[47:55] win the nomination in 96 but whether
[47:58] John Cenounu will give up his spot on
[48:00] crossfire on CNN that he's now got and
[48:03] Buchanan can get back to making a living
[48:05] >> I didn't hear it I read this somewhere
[48:06] that When Cenounu first appeared on that
[48:08] program, he was said they was told,
[48:10] "Welcome to our profession."
[48:12] >> Senoonu said, "I feel slimy already."
[48:15] >> He did. Is that correct?
[48:16] >> Well, he wasn't on the program, but he
[48:18] said, "Yeah, I feel slimy already." But
[48:20] somehow John Cenounu could overcome his
[48:22] aversion on the day they gave him his
[48:24] paycheck. He managed to go down to the
[48:26] bank with it. Slimy feeling or not.
[48:28] Welcome to the business.
[48:29] >> Slithering all the way, right?
[48:31] >> Oh, yes. Oh, yes.
[48:33] >> Principal, we have an interesting
[48:35] situation here. We have Paul Sunis
[48:37] pushing the Democratic party to the
[48:39] right or trying to and Buchanan pushing
[48:42] the Republican party to the right or
[48:44] trying to. Is this some kind of
[48:45] watershed in American politics?
[48:47] >> Well, it's it's not a good year for
[48:49] liberals clearly. Tom Harkin has lost
[48:53] bombed out
[48:53] >> bombed out and is likely to pull out
[48:56] very shortly. Uh but it is also not a
[48:59] good year for Washington. And I think
[49:01] that's a lot of what we're seeing that
[49:02] Pat Buchanan and the ultimate Washington
[49:05] insider born and bred is preaching
[49:07] against Washington. The senators on the
[49:09] Democratic side both uh gone nowhere.
[49:13] Jerry Brown's message even even given
[49:16] the messenger is is taking off in some
[49:18] areas. I mean it it shows that all of
[49:21] those who preach that maybe a Benson or
[49:23] a Gore should have gotten into this race
[49:24] or Ghart were probably wrong. The
[49:26] ultimate the spin of the year prize goes
[49:28] to a Harkin uh staffer who I guess after
[49:32] Harkin carried Iowa and I guess won the
[49:34] Minnesota caucuses and did did well in
[49:36] Idaho he said our candidate Harkin is
[49:39] the land mass winner that he's covered
[49:41] more territory which I really thought
[49:43] was an imaginative reach
[49:45] >> ground rather than votes.
[49:46] >> That's right. But you know Senator
[49:48] Songis is clearly trying to say I'm not
[49:51] a conservative. Look at these social
[49:53] issues. look at gay rights and all the
[49:55] rest. Mark my words, and this is hardly
[49:57] a blazing sunburst of insight, if he
[50:00] should be nominated, the fall campaign
[50:01] will find Mr. Bush sounding very like
[50:04] Mr. Buchanan because he will be talking
[50:06] a lot about gay rights and it won't be
[50:08] flattering.
[50:08] >> Well, as one of the few people perhaps
[50:10] in our business who has interviewed
[50:11] Willie Horton. I went up to the state
[50:13] pen in Baltimore a couple years ago and
[50:15] actually interviewed him. I don't doubt
[50:17] that George Bush this fall, if he needs
[50:19] to, will roll him out again or whatever
[50:21] he needs. But may I argue against the
[50:23] fact that you say Harkin didn't do well
[50:25] so liberalism isn't doing well. Harkin
[50:27] is a messenger and I think I believe
[50:30] that the messenger is at least as
[50:32] important perhaps more so than the
[50:34] message. I give you Ronald Reagan. I
[50:36] give you a lot of explain.
[50:38] >> Yeah.
[50:38] >> Well Sus is both a messenger and a
[50:41] message. He's a refreshing change from
[50:43] all of the slick down red tide excuse me
[50:46] Sam television image people. uh and it
[50:50] also has a message on the economic front
[50:52] that is selling.
[50:53] >> You go through any one of the you go
[50:55] through any polling data and ask people
[50:57] whether they're liberal or conservative.
[50:59] Many more people identify as
[51:00] conservative than as liberal today in
[51:02] America. And of course, most people say
[51:04] moderate if given the choice
[51:05] >> and more people say they're Democrats
[51:06] and as song pointed out the Republicans
[51:09] have won the White House in the last
[51:11] five out of the last six contests. But
[51:13] >> but another political question I find
[51:15] interesting is that the members of the
[51:17] house who bounced all these rubber
[51:19] checks in house bank which is now gone
[51:22] >> are going to have the names made public
[51:25] against I'm sure against their fervent
[51:27] wishes. Is that going to defeat some of
[51:29] the members of the house? You think Koke
[51:31] you spend a lot of time up there? the
[51:32] the the proposal out of the ethics
[51:35] committee is that only 19 current
[51:37] members have their names be made public
[51:39] because they are repeated and uh routine
[51:44] abusers. And the ethics committee
[51:46] defined this to mean someone who had
[51:48] overdrawn by more than his next month's
[51:51] paycheck eight times in three years.
[51:54] This does not include somebody who wrote
[51:56] a check for say $600,000 and it bounced
[51:59] once. It only includes these this very
[52:02] odd category. You have
[52:03] >> they must have spent a lot of time
[52:04] figuring out all
[52:05] >> Oh, they did. They had to go to and they
[52:07] don't know who the people are. They did
[52:08] it by code and all this, but what you
[52:10] have is a bunch of young Republicans who
[52:12] were not there long enough to know where
[52:14] the bank was to who are trying to get uh
[52:17] everybody's name revealed. And I think
[52:20] in the end that's what's likely to
[52:22] happen. George,
[52:23] >> the same people who thought that the
[52:24] members needed a private bank still
[52:26] don't get it. They don't get the fact
[52:29] that the message they are now sending to
[52:31] the voters is we've got the information
[52:32] but we're going to stonewall because if
[52:34] the information gets out you the voters
[52:37] won't treat it responsibly. Now if that
[52:39] isn't the paradigm of the Washington
[52:41] that makes people enraged and adds fuel
[52:44] to guess what I'm about to say term
[52:46] inspired now but George I'm not going to
[52:48] buy onto that but someone said it may
[52:50] have been you that that's not going
[52:51] >> to be like Carrie in health. These names
[52:53] are going to come out all of them
[52:55] because everybody I'm going to defeat
[52:57] them when they're named.
[52:58] >> The answer is yes with some one or two
[53:00] people
[53:01] >> because if I'm running against you and
[53:02] you're the incumbent I'm just going to
[53:04] say did you bounce checks yes or no Mr.
[53:07] >> and also the Congress provided a
[53:09] mechanism where that even if they don't
[53:10] vote to reveal the names the ethics
[53:12] committee will provide a letter to every
[53:15] single solitary member of the house
[53:17] about what his or her bank situation is.
[53:20] So all an opponent has to do is stand up
[53:22] and say, "Where's your letter, Mr.
[53:24] Congressman?" And the congress
[53:26] >> people have a right to know.
[53:27] >> People have a right to know. And if the
[53:28] congressperson does not provide the
[53:31] letter, then that will be big in the
[53:32] campaign.
[53:33] >> It will defeat some of them, David. And
[53:35] if it will defeat some of them and this
[53:37] accumulation of privilege, which the
[53:39] American public has decided they've had
[53:40] enough of, they ought to be defeated.
[53:42] >> Well, they're the only people I know who
[53:44] can bounce checks and get away with it.
[53:45] Do you know anybody else?
[53:47] >> Uh, the United States Lance. Who? United
[53:49] States government.
[53:51] >> Yes, I'm sure
[53:52] >> there's some small town banks that
[53:54] >> this we got a few seconds. This also
[53:55] apply to free meals in the restaurants,
[53:57] checks everything has all been uh
[54:00] cleared up and now there is another
[54:02] management of the restaurant and you
[54:05] cannot sign for things anymore. You have
[54:07] to have a credit card like just as you
[54:10] would in any other restaurant.
[54:11] >> Pass bills. Congress is threatening to
[54:13] strike back against the president who's
[54:14] beating them up because they say that
[54:16] the White House has five full-time
[54:18] florists.
[54:20] We have joined the great issues of the
[54:22] day here in Washington. You're against
[54:24] flowers indeed. I mean, this is so
[54:26] weighty. I can't stand any more of it. I
[54:28] have to wrap it up. Come back. Come back
[54:30] next week. We'll be back with a few
[54:32] words about asking you to pay to have
[54:33] your telephone tapped in a moment.
[54:38] >> Word on the street was they were a bad
[54:39] bet. An American institution 3 days shy
[54:43] of extinction. Only one investment firm,
[54:46] Dean Witter, saw past the problems to
[54:48] the real value of the company. And a
[54:51] rumble was heard round Wall Street. The
[54:53] last American motorcycle company came
[54:55] roaring back to life with a listing on
[54:57] the New York Stock Exchange. From Main
[55:00] Street to Wall Street, at Dean W. We
[55:03] measure success one investor at a time.
[55:14] In these times when energy security is
[55:17] so important, it's reassuring to know
[55:20] that virtually all the natural gas used
[55:22] in North America comes from North
[55:25] America.
[55:27] Natural gas. Because a strong America is
[55:31] an energy secure America.
[55:43] Freedom is all that matters. Freedom is
[55:46] everything. There's a new light shining
[55:49] over Eastern Europe.
[55:51] >> The Hungarians are waiting for a very
[55:52] long time.
[55:53] >> A light of hope, joy, and most of all, a
[55:56] new light of freedom.
[55:58] >> Everything is changing. It's wonderful.
[56:00] >> I'm so happy. And in this spirit, GE has
[56:03] entered into a historic partnership with
[56:05] a company called Dungro, Hungary's
[56:07] leading lighting company.
[56:10] Freedom is something that you have to
[56:12] work for very hard.
[56:15] >> Like a dream, beauty.
[56:18] >> At GE, we're proud to play even a small
[56:21] part in helping the Hungarian people
[56:23] build what promises to be a truly
[56:26] brilliant future.
[56:31] I'm Petrian.
[56:38] >> If you were on trial for your life,
[56:39] would you want a lawyer who gets paid $2
[56:42] an hour to defend you? It could happen.
[56:44] Watch Prime Time Thursday.
[56:48] >> They all grew up in the same
[56:49] neighborhood. Now they all have autistic
[56:51] children. How could it happen? A medical
[56:54] mystery. Watch 2020 Friday.
[56:59] Finally, one of the US government's
[57:01] favorite pastimes is tapping people's
[57:03] telephones. They tap mine once. It keeps
[57:05] a fair number of people busy and working
[57:07] and drawing salaries. Most of what they
[57:09] hear is extremely boring. And if they
[57:11] make any notes, they go into the files,
[57:13] in most cases stay there forever,
[57:14] unread. Now, however, wiretapping is no
[57:17] longer so easy. The telephone systems
[57:20] are changing over from copper wires to
[57:22] fiber optics to carry hundreds of calls
[57:24] on one cable. And to separate out an
[57:27] individual call takes complicated
[57:29] technology. The US Department of
[57:32] Justice, which does seem to have too
[57:34] many lawyers, is asking Congress for
[57:36] money for the phone companies to modify
[57:38] their system so they can still be
[57:39] tapped. And no surprise, it wants to put
[57:42] the cost on your and my phone bill. Only
[57:45] a pack of bureaucrats could think that
[57:47] up. The only thing worse would be, and
[57:49] they may come to this, cutting in on
[57:50] your phone calling, saying, "Excuse me,
[57:52] but I'm a government agent tapping your
[57:54] phone and making notes. Would you mind
[57:56] speaking a little more slowly?" For all
[57:58] of us here at ABC News, until next week,
[58:00] thank you.
[58:14] Once upon a time,
[58:18] KATU Channel 2.
[58:22] >> We have more news ahead here on Channel
[58:23] 2 tonight. Coming up tonight after the
[58:25] movie, Senator Tom Harkin is apparently
[58:27] calling it quits after more losses in
[58:29] yesterday's Democratic primaries. We'll
[58:31] tell you about his plans. Also,
[58:33] tornadoes ripped through North Carolina.
[58:34] We'll show you the damage from one
[58:36] twister in the golf ball-sized hail that
[58:38] came with it. We hope you can join us
[58:39] for Channel 2 News after the movie
[58:41] tonight. While the rhythm of African
[58:43] music and the sound of children laughing
[58:45] blended together in Pioneer Place this
[58:46] afternoon, the Northwest
[58:48] African-American Ballet came to the mall
[58:50] to share its talents with children. The
[58:52] kids learned Native African dances and
[58:54] songs.
[58:56] >> 2,
[58:58] step.
[59:08] >> Now, the dance steps were easy for the
[59:09] children to pick up. It was just like a
[59:11] game of follow the leader. Organizers
[59:13] hope the boys and girls had fun and
[59:14] learned a little bit about another
[59:16] culture.
[59:18] That's our report tonight. ABC News is
[59:20] coming right up next. We'll be back
[59:21] tonight after the movie James Bond.
[59:23] We'll see you then. Have a nice evening.
[59:24] Good night.