Iraq withdrawal / America's Mideast footprint / Hegseth's Pentagon overhaul | Sources & Methods

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[0:17] >> I think we have to not ignore that irony

[0:20] that the US came in here to topple a

[0:22] dictator and it ended up opening the

[0:25] door for Iran.

[0:28] >> [music]

[0:29] >> The US military is pulling out of Iraq

[0:32] again. For the second time since the

[0:34] 2003 invasion, the last American troops

[0:37] have left what is left of the US

[0:39] footprint in the Middle East. This is

[0:42] Sources and Methods from NPR.

[0:45] >> [music]

[0:46] [bell]

[0:46] >> I'm Mary Louise Kelly. Each week on this

[0:48] podcast, we walk, sometimes run, through

[0:50] the week's biggest national security

[0:52] stories. We do that with the [music] NPR

[0:54] reporters out and about in the world

[0:56] covering them. This week, that is

[0:58] international correspondent Jane Arraf,

[1:00] who is in Baghdad. Hey, Jane.

[1:02] >> Hey there.

[1:03] >> And NPR Pentagon correspondent at large

[1:07] Tom Bowman. Here with me in the studio

[1:09] in, to be specific, studio 42 in

[1:12] Washington. Hi, Arraf.

[1:13] >> Pentagon reporter in exile and it's

[1:15] great to be here.

[1:16] >> There you go. Let's time stamp this. It

[1:19] is just past noon Eastern time. Makes it

[1:22] a little after 7:00 in the evening for

[1:24] you, Jane.

[1:24] >> Yes, and it's dark and we're hearing

[1:27] what I think are fireworks cuz people

[1:29] are celebrating.

[1:30] >> What we hope are fireworks considering

[1:32] you're in Iraq. Um, speaking of being in

[1:35] Iraq,

[1:36] one of the reasons you are there and in

[1:38] Baghdad is what we expected would be a

[1:42] whole lot of pomp and circumstance, some

[1:44] fanfare this week to mark the withdrawal

[1:47] of US troops. How did it all go down?

[1:50] >> Yeah, kind of a lot less fanfare than we

[1:53] expected. I mean, in 2011 when the

[1:56] troops last pulled out, there actually

[1:58] was a ceremony and those of us who had

[2:00] covered the troops embedded on the front

[2:02] lines were able to go and see them

[2:05] casing the colors, lowering the flag,

[2:07] getting on planes and leaving and it was

[2:09] kind of

[2:11] you know, it was a kind of closure for

[2:12] them, for Iraq

[2:14] >> Yeah.

[2:14] >> because it acknowledged that something

[2:16] big had happened, right?

[2:18] This time, not so much. Um, we were told

[2:21] there would be a ceremony that would be

[2:22] televised live. It wasn't televised

[2:24] live. In fact, you know, the the

[2:26] soldiers had already pretty much left.

[2:28] There were about 1,500 of them recently

[2:31] and that went down to a few hundred and

[2:32] then that went down to nothing as they

[2:34] left before the deadline. So, it was,

[2:38] have to say, kind of anticlimactic.

[2:39] >> So few, I'm comparing that to the height

[2:42] of the war when there were something

[2:43] like 170,000

[2:45] troops there. So, just to spell out the

[2:48] the timeline, 2003, obviously the US

[2:51] went in, started fighting this war in

[2:54] Iraq. Those troops all eventually left

[2:56] by 2011.

[2:58] 2014, they went back to fight ISIS. And

[3:01] so, that's what is pulling out now. Tom,

[3:04] say a little bit more about what what

[3:05] they have been doing because Iraq has so

[3:09] faded from the front pages, from the

[3:10] headlines, from top of mind here in the

[3:12] US.

[3:13] >> Right. Well, ISIS was defeated in 2019.

[3:16] The Islamic State came to an end. And

[3:19] then the remaining ISIS folks just kind

[3:21] of scattered in Iraq and also in Syria.

[3:24] I made several trips to both Iraq and

[3:27] Syria during the last number of years.

[3:30] In Erbil, where the US had a large

[3:32] presence and they would send troops and

[3:35] aircraft and Green Berets and Delta

[3:37] Force into Syria

[3:39] to work with the Kurds to go after the

[3:41] remnants of ISIS. But, there's still

[3:43] sleeper cells in both Iraq and also in

[3:46] Syria.

[3:46] >> That was where I was going to go. Was if

[3:48] if the if the fight against ISIS was won

[3:50] in 2019, what were US soldiers still

[3:52] doing there in 2016? It was going after

[3:54] remaining cells and remnants and trying

[3:56] to make sure they don't come back.

[3:57] >> Correct. And they're still there and now

[4:00] it's going to be up to the Kurds or

[4:01] maybe the Turks. There are thousands of

[4:03] Turkish forces up there and the US has

[4:05] moved its anti-ISIS fight to Jordan. But

[4:09] people I talked with say, "Well, you

[4:10] can't really fight ISIS from afar. You

[4:13] really have to be on the ground." So

[4:14] that's going to be a challenge people I

[4:16] talked with say. You know, how do you

[4:18] move quickly if you have intelligence to

[4:19] go after some of their sites? Can you do

[4:22] it with drones? Can you do it working

[4:24] with the Turks or with the Kurds? That's

[4:26] going to be a challenge moving forward.

[4:28] >> Yeah, and just quickly before we get

[4:29] back to what's happening in Baghdad this

[4:31] week. When you say the US has moved the

[4:33] anti-ISIS fight to Jordan so that they

[4:37] can fight what's going on in Syria. What

[4:39] does that actually look like? This is a

[4:40] US base that will host troops.

[4:42] >> there there are a number of US forces in

[4:44] Jordan. I went to a Green Beret facility

[4:47] there. It's in this like um

[4:49] you know, governorate area. But also

[4:51] there are Jane knows there are a couple

[4:53] of bases really close to the Syrian

[4:56] border that can be used for let's say if

[4:59] the US wants to go forward a little

[5:01] closer to the Syrian border, they can

[5:04] use those small bases.

[5:05] >> Yeah. So, Jane, back to you and how this

[5:09] week's development is playing in Iraq. I

[5:12] know there are a range of views on the

[5:14] US finally finally maybe finally finally

[5:17] pulling out of Iraq. Um start with

[5:19] people who were celebrating this. You

[5:20] managed to crash a celebration by a few

[5:23] militias who were very happy to see the

[5:24] back of US troops.

[5:26] >> And those are some of the, you know, the

[5:28] key militias, the most powerful ones,

[5:30] the ones that have taken credit as part

[5:32] of what they call the Islamic resistance

[5:34] for attacking the US Embassy, for

[5:36] attacking other US positions.

[5:39] And so they held celebrations.

[5:47] >> There were fighters and just plain

[5:50] ordinary young men who were chanting

[5:53] "We drove out the occupiers with our

[5:57] weapons." And so, here's what's

[5:59] happening in Iraq going forward, okay?

[6:01] The US has left, but there's still lots

[6:03] of weapons here.

[6:05] And uh what the government is trying to

[6:07] do, and the Iraqi Prime Minister has

[6:09] promised President Trump he will do, is

[6:11] to disarm those militias. So, those

[6:14] militias, the key ones, some of the most

[6:17] powerful ones, are not going to disarm,

[6:20] and they've made that clear. But, what

[6:22] they are going to do, and this was new

[6:25] in a statement on Thursday, today,

[6:28] uh they said that they will stop

[6:29] attacks, which is a pretty big deal.

[6:31] However, that's not giving up arms. We

[6:33] spoke to a former Foreign Minister,

[6:35] Hoshyar Zebari, and he pointed out that

[6:38] unless they give up their heavy weapons,

[6:40] and we're talking about some major

[6:41] weapons, it doesn't really mean much.

[6:43] But, also, they have to get something

[6:45] for it. They have to be given political

[6:47] positions or something else for giving

[6:49] up all those weapons.

[6:50] >> And what looks does that look likely at

[6:52] all that they will be given some kind of

[6:54] political role in Iraq going forward?

[6:56] >> Uh there are some talks going on, and as

[6:58] we've seen, you know, in the history of

[6:59] the US in Iraq, the US makes

[7:01] accommodations. It has all the way since

[7:04] 2003. It has to. So, it does look like

[7:09] they're not going to be giving up

[7:11] weapons. They're Iran-backed militias.

[7:13] We have to make that clear. And they're

[7:15] not going to be giving up weapons if

[7:17] they don't get something in return. The

[7:19] threat of being bombed, so far,

[7:22] and actually being bombed both uh by the

[7:25] US, has not been enough. So, there will

[7:27] have to be some sort of give and take,

[7:29] it looks like.

[7:30] >> What about ordinary Iraqis that you were

[7:32] talking to, Jane? People not in

[7:33] militias, not carrying around big

[7:35] weapons, but just what what is the take

[7:37] among people on the street? What's the

[7:39] conversation about the US is finally out

[7:42] of Iraq.

[7:43] >> Yeah, you know, like so much in Iraq, it

[7:46] really depends on what your what your

[7:48] situation is, what happened to your

[7:50] family, whether you were

[7:53] one of the families of more than 200,000

[7:56] civilians who were killed during the US

[7:59] invasion, occupation, and the civil war

[8:01] that followed. So,

[8:03] in general, I think there is a sense of

[8:05] relief. No one wants to feel like there

[8:07] are foreign forces on their land. But

[8:10] certainly in the Kurdistan region of

[8:11] Iraq, there's a lot of worry.

[8:14] And when I've talked to ordinary

[8:16] families here, you know, it's been a

[8:18] while since they've seen US soldiers in

[8:20] the streets, years in fact. So, mostly

[8:23] they just want to live their lives. They

[8:26] want to have peaceful lives, and they

[8:27] get a two-day holiday today. So, there

[8:29] are a lot of families out and about, at

[8:31] the zoo, all sorts of places. And that

[8:34] is kind of an example that Iraq actually

[8:37] has stabilized to a certain extent.

[8:39] >> Yeah.

[8:41] When I say the US is finally out of

[8:42] Iraq, obviously a diplomatic presence

[8:45] remains. There's a US embassy. I mean,

[8:47] what does the US have

[8:49] influence going forward in terms of

[8:52] who's running Iraq, how decisions get

[8:54] made, aside from the military footprint?

[8:56] What does the US role look like or not?

[8:58] >> They absolutely do. You know, they have

[9:00] other levers of power, as you know, both

[9:03] diplomatic and political. President

[9:06] Trump in kind of that winding statement

[9:09] that he made about the withdrawal of US

[9:10] forces referred to the Iraqi Prime

[9:14] Minister having won a landslide

[9:16] election. Well, he didn't win a

[9:17] landslide election because there was no

[9:19] election. You don't get elected Prime

[9:21] Minister, you're It's a political deal,

[9:23] and then you're appointed. But he came

[9:25] to power because President Trump backed

[9:26] him. And that has been a key feature in

[9:29] politics, and that's something that US

[9:31] will presumably continue to exert

[9:33] pressure on in that field. But also, we

[9:36] can't forget that all of Iraq's billions

[9:38] of dollars in oil revenue actually runs

[9:40] through the US. It goes through the

[9:42] Central Reserve Bank, sorry, the Federal

[9:44] Reserve Bank in New York and it means

[9:47] that anytime the US wants to it can turn

[9:50] off the taps on the dollar supply to

[9:52] Iraq.

[9:52] >> Interesting. So economic levers there

[9:54] too. Just one last question to to wrap

[9:58] up this portion of the conversation and

[10:00] it's this.

[10:02] You know, Tom, you and I covered the

[10:04] wars in Iraq and Afghanistan in the

[10:07] years after 9/11.

[10:09] When the US pulled out of Afghanistan

[10:12] finally

[10:14] it seemed as though so much of what the

[10:15] US had built there, had tried to achieve

[10:18] there

[10:20] came undone within a matter of days. The

[10:21] government collapsed, the military

[10:23] collapsed. Afghans who helped Americans

[10:25] like you

[10:26] trying to report from there were

[10:28] targeted by the Taliban. Girls yanked

[10:30] out of schools, women told no you can't

[10:32] go work outside the home anymore.

[10:34] There's just so much undone.

[10:36] I I mean this is to either of you but

[10:38] maybe take a swing at it first, Jane.

[10:39] What is left of the whole American

[10:42] project in Iraq?

[10:44] >> Gosh, that's a great question. If by

[10:46] American project you mean

[10:49] that idea that they came in here to

[10:52] instill democracy

[10:56] I mean there's you know, talking about

[10:57] Iraq is always always always difficult

[11:00] because there are assumptions, there

[11:01] were sweeping assumptions made that led

[11:04] to the war and everything that happened

[11:06] after.

[11:07] >> And the goal of the American project

[11:09] quote unquote kept shifting in the many

[11:11] years that it unfolded. So there's that.

[11:13] >> And I think you also have to look what

[11:15] what's the legacy of the war in Iraq,

[11:17] right? Number one, why did the US go

[11:19] there in the first place? They thought

[11:20] hey, he had weapons of mass destruction,

[11:22] Saddam Hussein, particularly his a

[11:24] nuclear program. Well, he didn't. They

[11:26] got rid of it many years earlier but he

[11:28] was bluffing because he wanted to keep

[11:31] Iran, his enemy, on their back feet. So,

[11:35] the Americans cherry-picked or used

[11:36] faulty intelligence,

[11:38] you know, because they thought he had

[11:40] nuclear weapons, and they thought it

[11:41] would be easy. Remember, Def- uh Deputy

[11:43] Defense Secretary Paul Wolfowitz said,

[11:45] "We'll be greeted with candy and

[11:47] flowers." Well, that did not happen.

[11:49] There was an insurgency. And I want to

[11:51] read something about the nuclear uh

[11:53] program, too, what US thought was a

[11:55] nuclear program.

[11:56] >> What are you reading from here?

[11:57] >> This is Steve Coll. You know him quite

[11:59] well. He wrote this terrific book called

[12:01] the Achilles Trap, and I highly

[12:03] recommend it to everybody. There was a

[12:05] uh nuclear scientist, uh Saddam's

[12:07] nuclear scientist, defected. CIA

[12:10] interviewed him, want to put him through

[12:12] a polygraph,

[12:13] and uh one of the CIA operatives, after

[12:17] they realized this guy was telling the

[12:18] truth, that there was no nuclear

[12:19] program, he says, quote,

[12:22] "We made a terrible mistake."

[12:24] >> Jean, I'll I'll give you last word. Jump

[12:26] in.

[12:27] >> I was just going to say, I I think we

[12:28] have to

[12:29] sort of not ignore that irony that the

[12:32] US came in here to topple a dictator,

[12:35] and it ended up opening the door for

[12:38] Iran, and we're seeing that influence in

[12:39] all sorts of ways, and it has now

[12:41] started a war against Iran. Uh the other

[12:44] thing is, I was here in the '90s when UN

[12:47] weapons inspectors were here looking for

[12:49] those weapons of mass destruction that

[12:51] the US thought were here, and others at

[12:54] the time thought were here,

[12:55] and they were very clear that they

[12:57] weren't finding it. The US wouldn't

[12:59] listen to them, and the US obviously

[13:01] still is not listening to the United

[13:03] Nations, but I think part of this whole

[13:05] legacy is is kind of a history of going

[13:08] it alone, or going it alone, or

[13:11] persuading others, strong-arming others

[13:13] to join you, and now we're seeing the

[13:15] consequences.

[13:17] >> Let's take a break. When we come back,

[13:19] the changing shape of US involvement in

[13:22] the wider [music] Middle East. That's

[13:24] ahead on Sources and methods from NPR.

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[14:05] >> This week on the NPR Politics Podcast, a

[14:07] vibe check on election security. With

[14:10] barely a month left until the midterms,

[14:11] we're talking about vote by mail, the

[14:13] possibility of ICE at polling stations,

[14:16] >> [music]

[14:16] >> and what the Trump administration is

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[14:29] >> Chris Brown is in the news, [music]

[14:31] again. And that means that people are

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[14:37] >> Many of us are wanting [music] to be

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[14:42] point they're we're unwilling to hold

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[14:48] >> Listen to NPR's Code Switch podcast in

[14:50] the NPR app or wherever you get your

[14:52] podcast.

[14:54] >> So, US operations in Iraq have come to a

[14:57] close, again. Meanwhile, the war next

[15:00] door in Iran shows no sign of coming to

[15:02] a close anytime soon. That war has seen

[15:05] other countries in the region targeted,

[15:07] countries that host US bases, and all of

[15:10] this is reshaping America's military

[15:13] footprint in the Middle East. Tom, um,

[15:16] start right there with Iran and what

[15:19] kind of opening this leaves for Iran's

[15:23] proxy militias. Um

[15:26] we will recall that back in the early

[15:28] days of this US and Israel led war on

[15:31] Iran, one of the original goals was we

[15:33] want to weaken eliminate Iran's proxy

[15:36] forces across the Middle East.

[15:37] >> No, they're strengthened, no question.

[15:39] Um we've talked about Iraq in particular

[15:41] where they're, you know, Iranian backed

[15:43] militias. Now, what are they going to do

[15:44] going forward?

[15:45] Could they take potshots at the American

[15:47] Embassy, let's say? What about

[15:49] threatening, you know, US citizens here?

[15:51] They Iran wants the US to get out of the

[15:54] Middle East. So, that could be a

[15:55] particular problem, especially in Iraq.

[15:58] But, I think the wider Middle East,

[16:00] we've seen serious damage to US bases in

[16:02] the region, particularly Bahrain where

[16:04] the Fifth Fleet is headquartered.

[16:07] They've taken all the dependents out of

[16:08] there and most of the service members.

[16:11] So, what's the way forward? It could be

[16:13] just sort of a skeleton crew there,

[16:15] which is there now. But, are they going

[16:17] to maintain something in Bahrain? And

[16:19] also other parts of the Middle East,

[16:21] Kuwait, will they maintain troops there?

[16:24] The Pentagon, because of the damage

[16:27] done to some of these bases, they say we

[16:29] may not rebuild some of these bases. And

[16:31] also some of these countries, Jane

[16:33] probably knows this better, do we really

[16:35] want the US in our country? We've been

[16:38] attacked by Iran. Some of them may start

[16:40] making deals with Iran if they see the

[16:42] US start leaving the Middle East.

[16:44] >> Jane, pick up that threat. Tom's talking

[16:46] about what the calculation may look like

[16:47] from the Pentagon's perspective. What

[16:50] about from some of these countries,

[16:51] Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, Jordan that host

[16:54] US troops? How are they rethinking

[16:56] whether that's a great idea going

[16:57] forward?

[16:58] >> I think they're definitely rethinking.

[17:00] If you look at the damage that was done

[17:02] to not just their oil facilities, their

[17:05] ability to generate oil revenue, but

[17:08] actually the image, the impression that

[17:11] they could weather pretty much anything.

[17:13] I mean, the image of Dubai now is not

[17:15] what the image of Dubai was just a few

[17:18] months ago. And I think, you know, one

[17:20] of the things that we're looking at here

[17:22] is that juxtaposition of what Iran has

[17:25] always called the axis of resistance,

[17:28] which includes Iran-backed groups here

[17:31] in Iraq, and the Yemeni Houthis who have

[17:34] made huge gains against Saudi Arabia.

[17:36] There's been a shake-up in all sorts of

[17:38] ways, you know, Saudi has said there

[17:39] have been attacks here from from

[17:41] militias. Uh the militias deny it, they

[17:44] say, "Okay, maybe it's splinter groups

[17:46] from here." But it has set back perhaps

[17:49] years relations between Iraq and Saudi

[17:52] Arabia. So, there's a lot in play right

[17:54] now.

[17:55] >> Yeah.

[17:56] >> [snorts and clears throat]

[17:56] >> It's so fascinating. I mean, Iran for a

[17:58] while has articulated the goal of

[18:00] wanting the US to get out of the Middle

[18:02] East, and it looks like we're going to

[18:03] see out 2026 without being closer to a

[18:07] reality than it was at the beginning of

[18:09] 2026. All right, here's my next

[18:11] question.

[18:13] If the US presence in the Middle East is

[18:15] shrinking,

[18:17] who's looking to step in and fill that

[18:20] void?

[18:20] >> Turkey. Um from this perspective, from

[18:23] this location that I'm in now, Turkey is

[18:26] is very well positioned to fill part of

[18:28] the void. On one hand, it has agreed

[18:31] with the Iraqi government that it will

[18:32] shut down some of its bases. On the

[18:35] other hand, Iraq now is discussing with

[18:37] Turkey air defense systems. In times

[18:40] when there have been disputes between

[18:42] the US and Iraq, some Iraqi officials

[18:45] have said, "You know, we have other

[18:46] friends. We can look to other

[18:48] countries." And I think we're going to

[18:50] be seeing a bit more of that, but

[18:53] keeping in mind that the US can actually

[18:56] keep a country like Iraq on a fairly

[18:58] tight leash in terms of who it trades

[19:01] with.

[19:01] >> I want to stay with Turkey for a second

[19:03] because one of our colleagues, Hadi Al

[19:05] Shalchi, who is now based for us in

[19:08] Istanbul, lucky for us cuz we're all

[19:10] benefiting from her reporting, she had a

[19:13] story about how the leaders of Turkey,

[19:16] Saudi Arabia, and Pakistan sat side by

[19:20] side. She painted this picture of them.

[19:21] They were all at wooden desks in Mecca,

[19:24] and they signed, as she described it, a

[19:26] historic pact, the Mecca joint defense

[19:29] agreement, which combines

[19:31] Saudi Arabia's oil money,

[19:34] Pakistan's nuclear capabilities,

[19:36] Turkey's expanding ambitions and defense

[19:39] industry, and features something that

[19:42] looks kind of like NATO Article 5, that

[19:44] an attack on one of them would be an

[19:46] attack on all of them, and that they

[19:48] will promise to share intelligence and

[19:50] capabilities. Um the

[19:52] Turkish leader, Recep Tayyip Erdoğan, uh

[19:55] was speaking

[19:56] uh recently at a youth conference and

[19:59] talked about the significance of these

[20:01] countries coming together.

[20:08] So, I'll paraphrase there, but he's

[20:09] talking about these three countries

[20:10] coming together would, God willing, send

[20:12] a signal to the Islamic world. That's

[20:15] how they're thinking about things now.

[20:17] >> really significant that Turkey clearly

[20:19] is a much wider rising power here, much

[20:22] like Iran is. Um it's it's almost a

[20:24] parallel with what's going on in NATO,

[20:26] that the NATO countries are looking at

[20:28] each other and saying, "You know what?

[20:29] Can we rely on the US anymore? Maybe

[20:31] we're on our own now, and we have to

[20:33] work with each other." Maybe you're

[20:35] seeing the same thing over in the Middle

[20:37] East now.

[20:37] >> But in in that alliance, that brand new

[20:39] alliance, um has been tested fairly

[20:41] recently and found a bit wanting in

[20:44] terms of what Saudi Arabia believes.

[20:46] They were being attacked by Yemen, and

[20:48] they apparently went to Pakistan and

[20:51] said, "Okay, time to time to pay up. You

[20:55] promised to defend us." And

[20:57] nobody jumped to their defense. So, it

[20:59] seems like there's a very high bar

[21:01] there, as there is for NATO as well,

[21:03] right? In terms of activating a defense

[21:06] pact like that.

[21:07] >> Can I Can I just ask the the basic

[21:09] question? You know, when we say the US

[21:11] keeps pulling keeps getting pulled back

[21:13] into the Middle East,

[21:16] why? Like

[21:18] Just spell out what is the US interest

[21:21] in staying involved in keeping a big

[21:23] footprint in the Middle East these days?

[21:25] >> Oil and Israel.

[21:27] Right?

[21:28] I mean, Israel is at the center of

[21:30] almost

[21:31] every conflict we're covering.

[21:34] Um I've come from South Lebanon where

[21:38] that is that conflict is continuing to

[21:40] not just simmer, but boil over in all of

[21:43] these countries, some of whom have made

[21:45] peace with Israel.

[21:47] There are immense fears of Israeli

[21:50] expansionism.

[21:52] And one of the dynamics here is that the

[21:55] US is seen as unfailingly defending

[21:58] Israel and it's causing instability,

[22:01] according to a lot of regional leaders.

[22:03] That might be changing.

[22:04] >> Let's take another quick break. When we

[22:06] come back, Pete Hegseth outlines the

[22:08] next phase of his effort to reshape the

[22:11] Pentagon. It involves testosterone

[22:13] testing. We're going to hear Tom

[22:15] Bowman's take. Keep listening to Sources

[22:17] and Methods from NPR.

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[23:31] >> We're back, and we're going to stick

[23:32] with the US military, but turn our

[23:35] attention to Quantico, Quantico,

[23:37] Virginia, where yesterday, Wednesday,

[23:40] Pentagon chief Pete Hegseth delivered

[23:42] what he called a state of the force

[23:45] address. Tom, according to Pete Hegseth,

[23:48] what is the state of the force?

[23:49] >> Uh he says it's much better now, the

[23:51] warrior ethos is back, gone is DEI, gone

[23:54] is woke, gone is lawyers, you know,

[23:57] tying the hands of commanders.

[24:00] What I found kind of curious listening

[24:02] to him was, okay, you've been in like

[24:04] roughly a year and a half, you

[24:05] completely turned the whole Pentagon

[24:06] around. If anything, the Pentagon is in

[24:10] disarray.

[24:11] Uh Pete Hegseth has gotten rid of a lot

[24:13] of uh senior generals and admirals.

[24:16] Uh there's there's really a a sense of

[24:19] fear in the Pentagon, even the retired

[24:20] community, Mary Louise. Some people I

[24:23] want to talk with retired say, I don't

[24:25] want to go on the record.

[24:26] >> They're worried about taking your call.

[24:28] >> Correct. And some are still working for

[24:30] the federal government, some are in

[24:31] industry, and some are afraid that Pete

[24:33] Hegseth is going to go after them.

[24:36] I spoke with a retired four-star officer

[24:40] who got Canadian citizenship.

[24:44] >> Huh.

[24:45] >> Which

[24:45] >> Hold on, a retired four-star American

[24:48] officer

[24:50] >> who got Canadian citizenship.

[24:51] >> because one of the parents is from

[24:52] Canada, but he said he was worried about

[24:55] an investigation into him. He was

[24:57] worried about an IRS investigation. He

[24:59] was worried about being called back on

[25:01] active duty. And I'm just sitting there

[25:03] sipping my coffee. I didn't say

[25:04] anything, but I was absolutely stunned.

[25:07] >> But go back to his speech, the the

[25:08] speech yesterday. Are there specifics

[25:11] where he says it's it's all fixed, it's

[25:12] so much better? Like what's the evidence

[25:15] that he that he

[25:15] >> Well, again, there was really there was

[25:17] really no evidence, but there was a

[25:20] substantive part of his speech.

[25:23] They're going to create a four-star

[25:24] drone command, which makes a lot of

[25:25] sense, and something called project

[25:29] Agincourt, which will develop more

[25:31] drones. The name comes, of course, from

[25:33] the 15th century battle between Britain

[25:37] and France, where the longbow was used

[25:40] quite great effect.

[25:41] >> Cutting-edge technology, I suppose.

[25:43] >> the drone is the longbow of this

[25:46] century. So, that makes a lot of sense.

[25:48] And also, he he came up with another

[25:51] project which will be run by Elon Musk,

[25:55] and also former House Speaker Newt

[25:57] Gingrich, looking at the future of

[25:59] warfare. So, that did make a lot of

[26:01] sense, right?

[26:02] >> pairing, Elon Musk and Newt Gingrich.

[26:05] >> I would love to be in that room.

[26:06] >> Yeah, there you go. He also touched on

[26:10] something that Pete Hegseth loves to

[26:12] touch on, which is

[26:13] attacking the press.

[26:15] >> A free press is, of course, important,

[26:18] but partisan activism that intentionally

[26:20] smears the troops and the historic

[26:23] mission that they're undertaking is

[26:25] fundamentally anti-American.

[26:28] It's sick.

[26:30] It's a national betrayal.

[26:32] It's treason,

[26:33] actually.

[26:34] >> Treason. What Do we know what he's

[26:36] talking about?

[26:37] >> Well, he said, you know, the the press

[26:39] is actually talking about US bases in

[26:42] the region, you know, giving the enemy

[26:44] some comfort, a sense of what's going

[26:46] on.

[26:46] >> He doesn't like some of the reporting

[26:47] about morale of US troops who have been

[26:50] deployed a long time.

[26:51] >> which is interesting, he said you know,

[26:53] they're not really telling even the Hill

[26:55] Congress much about the damage to these

[26:57] bases. And it took a senior naval

[26:59] officer to say, you know, we're not

[27:01] going to go back to Bahrain anytime soon

[27:03] because the place is destroyed. And

[27:05] you're right, as far as morale, well,

[27:07] you know, we've been talking to a lot of

[27:08] sailors, their families, you know, who

[27:10] have spent a lot of time on the Lincoln.

[27:12] Morale is low in particular places like

[27:14] like the ships that have been gone so

[27:16] long. And there have been suicides and

[27:19] attempted suicides. Our colleague Steve

[27:21] Walsh down in Norfolk has done some

[27:23] terrific reporting on that. So we're not

[27:25] smearing them. They are coming forward

[27:27] and telling their stories. Their

[27:28] families are coming forward and telling

[27:31] our stories. So we're not smearing

[27:32] anybody.

[27:33] >> You're reporting what you're hearing

[27:35] from people serving on the front lines

[27:36] trying to serve this country.

[27:38] Just a

[27:39] quick update on your status because we

[27:43] are reporting on the situation at the

[27:44] White House with the White House pool

[27:46] which is changing day by day, sometimes

[27:48] hour to hour.

[27:49] You still can't report from inside

[27:51] >> In a couple of weeks it'll be one year

[27:53] since we've all been out of the Pentagon

[27:55] and it's important to note

[27:57] with what Secretary Hagseth said about

[28:00] the press, he hasn't had a briefing

[28:01] since May 5th.

[28:03] So if you think there's a problem with

[28:05] us, why don't you come out and we can

[28:07] have a back and forth and you can tell

[28:09] us what you think is going on.

[28:12] >> All right, I'm going to cheer us all up

[28:13] by saying it is time for OSINT, open

[28:17] source intelligence public nevertheless

[28:19] revealing bits of information and I'm

[28:22] going to kick us off this week

[28:24] with this. The other day a message

[28:27] popped up in my inbox from a 14-year-old

[28:31] boy in England named Bo. He wanted to

[28:34] say hi and he was asking if I knew about

[28:37] Grandpa Spy which it emerges is an

[28:40] account on Instagram, TikTok in which

[28:43] Bo, again age 14, asks his 86-year-old

[28:47] grandpa questions, which is a ritual

[28:50] that becomes a lot more interesting once

[28:52] you figure out that Bo's grandpa is

[28:54] David Bickford, a senior figure in

[28:57] British intelligence. He was the top

[28:59] lawyer for MI5 and MI6.

[29:02] And their posts are Bo asking D, as he

[29:05] calls him, I guess D for David, asking

[29:08] his granddad things like, "How do you

[29:09] spies pass messages to their handlers?

[29:12] And

[29:13] what makes a person betray their

[29:14] country? How do you know if you're being

[29:17] followed?" Here's the latest.

[29:19] >> So, D,

[29:19] >> Yeah.

[29:20] >> which spy movie is the most realistic,

[29:23] James Bond or Mission Impossible?

[29:25] >> James Bond.

[29:26] >> James Bond or The Bourne Identity?

[29:28] >> Oh, The Bourne Identity.

[29:30] >> Completely agree, for whatever that's

[29:32] worth. And they they go through, they

[29:33] consider a few more movies, and then

[29:35] they get to the canon of the great John

[29:37] le Carré.

[29:38] >> Tinker Tailor or Slow Horses?

[29:41] >> Ooh, Slow Horses incredibly good, but

[29:44] I'd go for Tinker Tailor.

[29:46] >> Tinker Tailor or The Spy Who Came in

[29:48] from the Cold?

[29:48] >> Oh, definitely The Spy Who Came in from

[29:50] the Cold.

[29:52] That is the nearest of all to what

[29:55] really goes on.

[29:56] >> Yeah.

[29:57] >> But,

[29:58] if you go to the very first cut in in in

[30:01] that film,

[30:04] Richard Burton

[30:06] walks right up to the white line that

[30:08] divides East from West and East from

[30:11] West Berlin.

[30:12] >> Mhm.

[30:13] >> No spy would ever have done that,

[30:15] because he'd have immediately been

[30:17] spotted.

[30:18] >> They

[30:19] They go on from there, but they never

[30:20] managed to surpass The Spy Who Came in

[30:22] from the Cold.

[30:23] >> I agree. I love Slow Horses. It is

[30:25] really, really well done.

[30:26] >> And there's a new season out. And think

[30:28] Speaking of new things, and speaking of

[30:30] Berlin, 14-year-old Bo also wanted to

[30:33] alert me that his grandpa writes spy

[30:35] thrillers and has got a new one coming

[30:37] out this month called The Berlin Truce.

[30:40] So, congratulations. Yeah. Go go Bo and

[30:43] go grandpa.

[30:44] Tom, what do you have for us then?

[30:45] >> Well, we've been talking about Secretary

[30:47] Heggseth. He has mounted a review of

[30:49] women in combat, ground combat, and

[30:52] infantry, artillery, and armor 10 years

[30:55] after they were allowed into these

[30:57] areas. He's sending investigators out to

[31:00] a number of bases around the country,

[31:02] and they've already gone to Fort Benning

[31:04] to look at Ranger School because there

[31:06] were charges that, "Oh, women have it

[31:08] easier than men. There's not one

[31:10] standard for both." What they found out

[31:13] was, "No, there is only one standard for

[31:16] a man and women. That has not changed.

[31:18] And 190 women have passed Ranger School,

[31:22] which is very arduous training."

[31:25] >> With the exact same I guess literal bar

[31:28] for doing pull-ups, the exact same the

[31:30] exact same standards as the men. All

[31:32] right, go women. Jane, what do you have?

[31:35] >> Yeah, I guess I've been thinking a lot

[31:36] about, you know, the the pullout of the

[31:39] US troops and

[31:41] how one comes to grips, and by one I

[31:44] mean Iraqis and Americans who served

[31:47] here, with everything that went on

[31:49] before, you know, all the incredible

[31:51] loss,

[31:53] all of the

[31:54] frankly really terrible memories along

[31:56] with

[31:58] good ones as well. And I was speaking to

[32:01] someone who is an extraordinary young

[32:03] entrepreneur, Ally Al-Makhzoumi, when he

[32:06] founded this tourism company called

[32:08] Bilweekend, which just means on the

[32:10] weekend. And I was asking him what sort

[32:12] of American tourists he gets because he

[32:14] does get Americans and all sorts of

[32:16] tourists.

[32:17] And he started telling me about what his

[32:19] clients call healing trips. And he

[32:22] described a couple of the guys that they

[32:25] had taken

[32:27] US military veterans who came back to

[32:30] Taji, to Fallujah,

[32:32] to see what was left of it.

[32:35] >> And it was very surprising and I was

[32:37] crying. He said like here I I lost a lot

[32:40] of friends.

[32:42] But at the same time he was happy to see

[32:45] Fallujah

[32:46] 100% change.

[32:48] Fallujah they it was a battle zone, but

[32:51] now it's beautiful streets, beautiful

[32:53] buildings,

[32:55] the river just flowing up with the green

[32:58] and music.

[32:59] >> So I guess when we talk about the legacy

[33:01] that the US left behind, well, there's

[33:03] very much the mistakes that were made,

[33:05] the the incredible destruction, the

[33:08] damage, but it's also I suppose the

[33:11] ability in some sense to create a new

[33:13] future.

[33:13] >> It's like the Vietnam vets going back,

[33:15] you

[33:15] >> Yeah.

[33:16] Yeah, or the the World War II vets who

[33:18] you know for many years have made it

[33:20] back to see the battlefields they fought

[33:22] on and and uh

[33:24] and revisit as as you said Jane, both

[33:26] the good and the bad. Thanks for sharing

[33:28] that.

[33:29] That was NPR international correspondent

[33:31] Jane Arraf in Baghdad. Thank you, my

[33:33] friend. Good night.

[33:35] >> Thank you.

[33:36] >> And NPR Pentagon correspondent Tom

[33:38] Bowman here with me in Washington. Thank

[33:40] you, Tom.

[33:41] >> Always a pleasure.

[33:42] >> Before we go, one more thank you to our

[33:44] NPR Plus listeners who support the work

[33:47] of every journalist you hear on this

[33:49] show, wherever they are in the world.

[33:51] NPR Plus listeners also get every

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[33:56] they can access our full archive of

[33:58] episodes. You can learn more at

[34:00] plus.npr.org.

[34:03] Thanks for listening. [music]

[34:04] I'm Mary Louise Kelly. We'll be back

[34:06] next week with another episode of

[34:08] Sources and Methods from NPR. [music]

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