Nightline (ABC) - 1992-03-18

Channel: malgent

Transcript

Language: English (YouTube automatic captions)

[0:00] A South African milestone.

[0:02] >> Today is in a certain sense of the word

[0:05] the real birthday

[0:07] of the real new South African nation.

[0:11] >> Now begins the hard part.

[0:16] We'll talk tonight with the man who has

[0:18] personified the black struggle in South

[0:20] Africa, Nelson Mandela.

[0:30] >> This is ABC News Nightline. Reporting

[0:34] from Washington,

[0:35] Ted Koppel.

[0:37] >> It is, to borrow from Charles Dickens,

[0:40] the best of times and the worst of

[0:42] times. On the positive side of the

[0:44] ledger, white South Africans, nearly 70%

[0:47] of those voting, have taken a giant

[0:49] collective step toward undoing some of

[0:52] the racial injustices of apartheid.

[0:55] President de Klerk now has an

[0:56] overwhelming mandate to negotiate the

[0:58] face and form of a new South African

[1:01] government. But among those who voted

[1:04] against de Klerk's referendum are the

[1:06] hardest of the white hardliners, men and

[1:09] women who won't hesitate to substitute

[1:11] the bullet for the ballot. They have

[1:14] repeatedly warned what they will do if

[1:16] President de Klerk keeps moving toward

[1:19] representational government in South

[1:21] Africa. And even as there is a sense of

[1:23] a major political victory won by South

[1:26] Africa's president, there is, as Don

[1:29] Klenkster now reports, a dangerous

[1:31] undercurrent of what may yet be in

[1:34] store.

[1:38] >> It was the greatest gift a world leader

[1:40] could have, a landslide referendum

[1:42] victory on his birthday.

[1:44] >> Today

[1:46] will be written up in our history

[1:49] as one of the most fundamental turning

[1:52] point days in the history of South

[1:55] Africa.

[1:56] Today we have closed the book

[2:00] on apartheid, and that chapter is

[2:02] finally closed.

[2:05] >> The story, however, is not over. For as

[2:07] President de Klerk now pushes ahead with

[2:09] plans to share power with blacks, a new

[2:12] and dangerous era begins.

[2:16] As one of South Africa's top guns well

[2:19] knows, even before the referendum,

[2:21] Morgan Lanham, owner of this gun school,

[2:24] decided he is leaving the country

[2:26] because of the violence.

[2:28] >> It's out of control, it really is, and

[2:29] that is That is frightening.

[2:32] >> It's a feeling shared by many other

[2:33] whites.

[2:34] >> is a father of four children. At 8:15,

[2:36] he was killed stone dead.

[2:39] >> Whites who shudder at the escalating

[2:41] crime,

[2:42] the continuing political violence,

[2:45] the indescribable brutality that haunts

[2:48] everyday life.

[2:52] That intrudes even into the most

[2:54] intimate of circumstances.

[2:56] For Kathleen Miller, the referendum has

[2:58] only heightened the uncertainty. When

[3:01] doing the laundry, she always keeps a

[3:02] gun in her clothes bucket.

[3:05] >> I think we've lost control. People are

[3:06] running around with AK-47s.

[3:09] You just know if you go down to the

[3:11] supermarket, it's not sure you're coming

[3:13] back anymore.

[3:14] >> But whites aren't alone in their fear.

[3:17] In the past 3 weeks alone, since

[3:18] President de Klerk called for the

[3:20] referendum, nearly 300 blacks have been

[3:22] killed in violence many say is being

[3:25] fanned by white conservative elements in

[3:27] the security forces.

[3:28] >> And we emphasize time and again.

[3:31] What has happened

[3:32] in the past?

[3:34] >> And there is something else blacks are

[3:36] anguished about. While 3 million whites

[3:38] were casting their ballots, 26 million

[3:40] blacks had to stand on the sidelines

[3:43] because they still can't vote.

[3:45] >> It has dramatized the exclusion of black

[3:47] people, and therefore has made them

[3:50] reluctant spectators, and I think rather

[3:53] resentful spectators.

[3:55] >> Resentful even of ANC President Nelson

[3:58] Mandela, who has tried to assure whites

[4:00] they have nothing to fear from a black

[4:01] government.

[4:02] >> It is the ANC that is now looking at

[4:06] addressing white fears.

[4:09] I mean, the struggle is about addressing

[4:11] black suffering, not white fears.

[4:14] >> For most blacks, the struggle that

[4:16] consumes their daily lives is not really

[4:18] about voting rights, a bill of rights,

[4:20] or a new constitution. It's about

[4:22] toilets, running water, having a decent

[4:25] house, living like human beings.

[4:28] That is the urgent challenge now facing

[4:30] President de Klerk. How to satisfy the

[4:33] demands of blacks while protecting the

[4:35] rights of the white minority.

[4:37] >> We have to get through this, and we have

[4:39] to arrive at an agreed constitution and

[4:42] get a new government in power, and then

[4:44] gain control of the situation. The

[4:46] longer we linger in this no man's land,

[4:49] the trickier it's going to be, the more

[4:50] violent it's going to be.

[4:53] >> The far right, which vehemently opposes

[4:55] power sharing, has accused President de

[4:57] Klerk of being a traitor.

[4:59] >> He's selling this country.

[5:00] >> That's right.

[5:01] >> He's selling it, mate.

[5:02] He's selling it.

[5:03] >> You can't share, but that's don't share.

[5:06] They'd never share.

[5:07] They are a selfish nation, and they

[5:08] always will be.

[5:09] >> I've no doubt that

[5:11] racism and the management of racial

[5:13] problems will be the number one, number

[5:16] two, and number three political problems

[5:18] of South Africa.

[5:21] >> Permeating daily life. Let's talk to

[5:23] John Zola. Welcome, John.

[5:25] >> On radio talk shows.

[5:27] >> I'm actually sick of the blacks. Really,

[5:29] I am, because I mean, I go to the

[5:31] supermarket, they push in in front of

[5:32] me.

[5:33] >> All of them?

[5:34] >> Well, the majority of them, yeah.

[5:35] >> Oh, do you realize what you're saying,

[5:37] mate?

[5:37] >> Yes, I do realize what I'm saying, John.

[5:38] >> You're generalizing about 30 million

[5:41] people.

[5:41] >> they all look the same, too, John. They

[5:43] all look the same. And And all behave

[5:45] the same. They're all like bloody

[5:47] animals.

[5:48] >> It was only 3 years ago that blacks

[5:50] couldn't use certain parks, couldn't

[5:52] ride certain buses,

[5:55] couldn't swim at certain beaches. Many

[5:58] whites wish it were still so.

[6:00] >> There's no doubt that 90% of white South

[6:03] Africans preferred the old South Africa.

[6:06] That people in general are reluctant

[6:08] reform supporters. This is obviously a

[6:10] second best scenario. Uh and it's

[6:13] understandable because after all the

[6:14] beneficiaries of reform are not whites

[6:17] in the short term, but black South

[6:19] Africans.

[6:20] >> And that realization, now that the

[6:22] referendum is over, has unleashed some

[6:24] of the most virulent racism.

[6:26] >> We don't want blacks in our country.

[6:28] >> We don't even look the same.

[6:30] >> Such attitudes linger like an

[6:32] intractable tapeworm in the body

[6:34] politic.

[6:35] >> Look,

[6:36] smell him. Have you ever seen a smell

[6:39] him?

[6:40] You know, if you take a hyena and you

[6:42] take a black

[6:44] and you put them in two separate boxes

[6:46] and you cannot see them. You know that a

[6:48] qualified game ranger on smell alone

[6:51] will not tell you that is a hyena and

[6:54] that's the black.

[6:56] >> With the referendum, however, the

[6:57] politics of hope have overcome the

[6:59] politics of hate. White South Africans,

[7:02] even those apprehensive about their

[7:04] country's future, have sent President de

[7:06] Klerk a resounding message. Let's move

[7:09] forward.

[7:10] >> I think it's absolutely great.

[7:12] I think yes and yes.

[7:14] >> I think it is fantastic.

[7:15] >> What the white population of this

[7:17] country has said now is that we want a

[7:20] society

[7:21] where the principle of equality

[7:24] is maintained.

[7:26] >> It's the first time anywhere that a

[7:28] minority has voluntarily decided to give

[7:30] up or at least share power and

[7:32] privilege.

[7:33] >> So, despite the deep prejudices,

[7:36] reality impinges upon this place. Like

[7:39] being hanged in the morning, it helps

[7:41] concentrate the mind.

[7:43] >> On where South Africa must now go, not

[7:46] on where it has been.

[7:48] This is Don Kladstrup for Nightline in

[7:50] Johannesburg.

[7:53] >> When we come back, we'll be joined by

[7:55] the man who many say would be president

[7:57] in a reformed South Africa, Nelson

[8:00] Mandela.

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[10:24] >> In the days leading to the historic

[10:26] vote, one of the strongest arguments for

[10:29] a yes vote came from Nelson Mandela, the

[10:31] deputy president of the African National

[10:34] Congress. He had warned that any attempt

[10:36] to reinstate apartheid in South Africa

[10:39] would make civil war a certainty. He

[10:42] joins us now from the headquarters of

[10:44] the African National Congress in

[10:46] Johannesburg.

[10:47] I wonder, Mr. Mandela, if you ever

[10:50] dreamed it possible some 20 odd years

[10:52] ago when you were a political prisoner

[10:54] on Robben Island that the day might come

[10:56] when the white population of South

[10:58] Africa would vote in favor of in effect

[11:01] dissolving apartheid and moving toward

[11:03] representational government.

[11:07] >> We have never doubted

[11:10] that

[11:11] such a moment would arrive.

[11:15] Otherwise, we would not have opted

[11:19] for a policy of non-racialism

[11:23] where South Africans stop thinking

[11:27] in terms of the color of

[11:30] a person.

[11:32] We have advocated for the for many

[11:35] decades

[11:37] at the policy

[11:40] of

[11:41] looking at problems as South Africans,

[11:44] not as members of ethnic groups.

[11:47] >> Are you as optimistic, are you as

[11:50] sanguine about what has happened today

[11:52] as President de Klerk appears to be?

[11:54] I quote him from his news conference in

[11:57] South Africa earlier today at which he

[11:59] said, "Today we close the book on

[12:01] apartheid."

[12:02] >> The greatest demand

[12:04] by the overwhelming majority of the

[12:06] people of this country

[12:08] is

[12:09] that of

[12:11] uh getting political power.

[12:14] We have not yet reached that position.

[12:18] And uh we have not yet reached it simply

[12:20] because of the color of our skins.

[12:23] So, apartheid

[12:25] uh still lives in this country.

[12:27] >> At your own news conference earlier

[12:29] today, you are still calling on the rest

[12:32] of the world to maintain its sanctions

[12:34] against South Africa. Uh what one would

[12:37] expect that President de Klerk and and

[12:39] his allies would say,

[12:42] "Come on now, Mr. Mandela, give us a

[12:43] break. Haven't we shown our good faith,

[12:45] and and can't we work hand-in-hand, and

[12:48] allow these sanctions finally to be

[12:51] dropped?"

[12:53] >> We say sanctions were introduced in

[12:56] order to induce South Africa

[12:58] to abandon apartheid.

[13:00] And secondly,

[13:02] uh to give political rights

[13:05] uh to the majority of South Africans.

[13:08] Neither of those two objectives have

[13:10] been achieved.

[13:12] We are on the way there,

[13:14] but we are not yet there.

[13:17] It would therefore be premature for us

[13:19] at this stage to call for the lifting of

[13:22] sanctions.

[13:24] >> Do you totally trust President de Klerk

[13:26] now? The two of you after all have had a

[13:29] couple of years now to take one

[13:30] another's measure

[13:32] and you have been able to watch him

[13:34] close up as he moves politically

[13:37] in what would seem to be the direction

[13:39] that you want the country to go.

[13:41] >> It is not a question whether we would

[13:42] trust one another.

[13:45] It is a question of necessity.

[13:47] We are called upon by destiny to work

[13:50] together in order to ensure

[13:53] that the political system in this

[13:55] country is democratized and normalized.

[13:58] >> We have not yet commented

[14:01] on the Conservative Party of South

[14:02] Africa, which after all has suffered a

[14:05] significant defeat today, but as we both

[14:08] know they're not going to pack up and go

[14:10] away. So, what is going to happen now

[14:12] with that 28% of the vote

[14:15] that was so bitterly opposed to the to

[14:18] the the referendum?

[14:22] >> The defeat

[14:24] should convince them

[14:27] that the people of South Africa,

[14:29] including the whites,

[14:31] are no longer prepared to go to the past

[14:35] where a minority of less than 15%

[14:39] had decided the destiny

[14:42] of the majority, overwhelming majority

[14:45] of the population.

[14:47] They must make now an unequivocal

[14:50] commitment to the peace process.

[14:53] >> You know that they take the position, I

[14:56] mean obviously you know it a great deal

[14:57] better than than those of us in this

[14:59] country. They take the position that

[15:00] they want their own white homeland.

[15:03] >> Well, uh

[15:05] we understand that.

[15:07] But, uh the African National Congress

[15:12] is the last organization

[15:14] to accept the partitioning of South

[15:17] Africa.

[15:18] When the policy of the Bantustans,

[15:22] was uh initiated

[15:24] in the early '50s.

[15:27] We rejected that on principle.

[15:31] And uh we have maintained that attitude.

[15:34] It would be grossly inconsistent on our

[15:37] part now to allow this demand is simply

[15:40] because it is made by a tiny minority of

[15:43] whites.

[15:44] >> Now that the referendum has been passed

[15:46] and passed by an overwhelming majority,

[15:49] what are your predictions about the

[15:51] level of violence, which has indeed

[15:53] risen over the past few weeks in South

[15:55] Africa?

[15:56] >> Well,

[15:58] uh we cannot prevent

[16:01] uh the right wing

[16:04] from starting violence.

[16:06] In fact, uh they are busy with violence

[16:08] now.

[16:10] They have been bombing uh schools

[16:13] and uh similar other places.

[16:16] But uh it is the responsibility of the

[16:19] regime

[16:20] uh

[16:21] to put an end to that violence.

[16:25] >> What kind of

[16:27] uh a time clock do you see now for the

[16:30] evolution of political development in

[16:32] South Africa? Are we still talking about

[16:35] a matter of

[16:37] a decade or so, 5 years, 1 year? Do you

[16:40] see it in terms of months? Give me a

[16:42] sense of how you see things developing

[16:43] now.

[16:44] >> It's difficult uh

[16:46] to specify

[16:49] an exact date

[16:51] uh for the these fundamental changes to

[16:53] be brought about.

[16:55] It is sufficient to say

[16:57] that uh we have demanded the

[16:59] installation

[17:01] of an interim government this year.

[17:04] We also would like

[17:07] uh the elections

[17:09] to a constituent assembly to take place

[17:12] within 18 months.

[17:14] >> On balance, though, you're pleased by

[17:15] today's developments.

[17:17] >> I'm very pleased indeed.

[17:20] Uh because uh

[17:22] the ANC

[17:24] is one of those uh organizations in this

[17:28] country and outside uh South Africa

[17:30] who have called upon voters

[17:33] to return

[17:34] a uh an overwhelming yes.

[17:38] And uh they have done that. And

[17:40] therefore, I'm very happy indeed.

[17:43] My colleagues and I are very happy

[17:45] indeed at this result.

[17:46] >> Mr. Mandela, I thank you again. It's

[17:48] always a pleasure to talk to you. Nice

[17:50] of you to give us the time. Thank you,

[17:51] sir.

[17:52] >> You are welcome. Thank you.

[17:54] >> When we return, we'll be joined by

[17:56] Allister Sparks, a South African

[17:58] journalist and an expert on the

[17:59] country's affairs, who with the new

[18:02] mandate for reform foresees swift change

[18:05] and a scenario for new violence.

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[20:57] >> Joining us now is Allister Sparks, a

[20:59] South African journalist who for years

[21:01] has chronicled his country's crisis and

[21:04] who says that the mandate may have set

[21:06] the stage for a new insurrection from

[21:08] the far right. Mr. Sparks joins us from

[21:10] our bureau in Johannesburg.

[21:12] Without diminishing in any way the the

[21:16] step forward that has been taken, where

[21:19] do some of the political landmines lie?

[21:23] >> I think the danger now is that a a

[21:26] really distressed and partly

[21:29] marginalized right-wing in desperation,

[21:32] the hardliners may now turn to violent

[21:35] insurrection. And I think that could

[21:38] pose a crisis in the security forces

[21:40] where there are many closet supporters

[21:42] of those people.

[21:44] >> When you say a crisis, to the extent

[21:46] that what they would be working from

[21:48] within to undermine the government or

[21:51] that they would simply break off and

[21:52] join the far right?

[21:54] >> I think the problem is the the danger is

[21:58] that these

[21:59] right-wing extremists might launch a

[22:02] violent revolt,

[22:04] start creating violence around the

[22:07] country, and the the crisis is going to

[22:09] arise over whether the security forces,

[22:12] the police in particular, will put them

[22:14] down with any vigor because there is so

[22:17] much support for their cause within the

[22:19] security forces.

[22:20] >> Now, what does what does de Klerk have

[22:22] to do to on the one hand try to maintain

[22:25] peace on the right flank, and on the

[22:28] other hand

[22:30] maintain a negotiating process with the

[22:34] with the other members of the

[22:36] negotiating team on the other side?

[22:38] >> Well, I think in the first instance he

[22:40] he has to get his security forces under

[22:43] better control. He's got to clean them

[22:45] up, shake them up, and he's got to start

[22:47] at the top. Secondly, I think white

[22:49] South Africa, beginning with the

[22:51] government, has got to move on now.

[22:53] We've done a great thing

[22:55] in uh

[22:57] rejecting apartheid. This was white

[22:59] South Africa's final verdict on

[23:01] apartheid. It has turned its back

[23:03] finally on apartheid. What it has to do

[23:05] now

[23:06] is embrace the future. It has to embrace

[23:09] the non-racial future fully. It has to

[23:12] go out and

[23:14] embrace the black fellow South Africans.

[23:18] And now there have to be changes that

[23:20] bring benefits to them. Otherwise, we

[23:23] are going to run very quickly into a

[23:25] crisis of expectations on the black

[23:27] side. And then we will have a black

[23:29] left-wing problem as we have had a a

[23:32] white right-wing problem.

[23:33] >> Alister, I still sense, even in De

[23:37] Klerk's messages, they still are not

[23:40] thoroughly committed to the notion of

[23:42] fully representational one man, one

[23:45] vote, are they?

[23:47] >> Yes, exactly, Ted. The big gap that

[23:49] still exists between De Klerk and Nelson

[23:52] Mandela

[23:53] is that whereas Mandela believes in full

[23:57] majority rule, proper democracy, De

[24:00] Klerk talks about

[24:03] share power sharing. Now, that is code

[24:06] language for a white veto, for minority

[24:10] representation

[24:12] way beyond the numbers

[24:15] in the white electorate, and way beyond

[24:17] the numbers in any particular white

[24:20] party. It would mean white minority

[24:22] vetoes on a lot of things. And that is

[24:24] the gap that still has to be closed in

[24:27] the constitution-making process.

[24:29] >> What kind of a compromise is possible

[24:31] between that position and Mandela's

[24:33] position, which quite clearly would

[24:34] would would not accept that sort of a

[24:36] special status?

[24:38] >> The compromise that I can see already

[24:40] taking shape is commitments by agreement

[24:42] on the part of the winning party to

[24:45] include minorities and minority parties

[24:49] in a government of national unity for an

[24:51] agreed period of time, anything from two

[24:54] to 10 years. Somewhere along that line,

[24:57] I think is the area of compromise.

[24:59] >> So, on balance, a great day in South

[25:02] African history.

[25:04] >> Yes, indeed. I think it is a great day.

[25:06] I think it is through the air with

[25:09] a certain exhilaration. White South

[25:11] Africans feel they've done a good thing

[25:14] and there's a certain electricity in the

[25:16] air. Uh but they still do have to go

[25:19] beyond that. They can't take the view

[25:21] that they've done their thing and now

[25:23] everything will be okay. They have to

[25:25] move on from here into the reality of

[25:29] the non-racial society.

[25:30] >> And how long do you think it'll take?

[25:32] What kind of a what kind of a a calendar

[25:34] do you foresee?

[25:36] >> I think we're going to see the

[25:37] negotiating process itself move pretty

[25:39] rapidly, Ted. I think we could see an

[25:42] interim government council that will

[25:44] include the black parties in position by

[25:47] June, as early as that. And I think that

[25:49] will be the moment when we will see

[25:52] Nelson Mandela uh proclaim an end to

[25:56] sanctions with the exception of oil and

[26:00] the oil embargo and the arms embargo.

[26:03] And I think that will also be the signal

[26:05] for the United States Congress to end

[26:07] the Gramm Amendment, which will open the

[26:09] way uh for South Africa to get

[26:12] International Monetary Fund and World

[26:14] Bank loans.

[26:15] >> An eventful day and if your schedule is

[26:17] right, some eventful weeks and months

[26:19] ahead. Allister Sparks, many thanks.

[26:21] >> Thank you, Ted.

[26:23] >> We'll be back in a moment.