This Week (ABC) - 1983-10-23 (Marine barracks bombing)
Channel: malgent
Transcript
Language: English (original, YouTube automatic captions)
[0:03] From ABC News.
[0:07] >> [music]
[0:10] >> This Week with David Brinkley.
[0:12] Now, from our Washington headquarters,
[0:14] here's [music] David Brinkley.
[0:17] The program we had announced for today
[0:19] has of course been discarded because of
[0:21] the tragic news from Lebanon, where 120
[0:24] or more American Marines died this
[0:27] morning.
[0:28] A truck loaded with explosives drove
[0:30] into their barracks near the Beirut
[0:32] Airport on a suicide mission and blew
[0:35] the entire four-story four-story
[0:37] building apart. 120 dead, many more
[0:40] wounded, and the final figure may be
[0:42] higher. A French military barracks at
[0:45] about the same time also was blown up
[0:47] with a loss of life apparently more than
[0:50] 80.
[0:51] Our guests today, the Secretary of
[0:53] Defense Caspar Weinberger, live from the
[0:55] Pentagon,
[0:57] former Secretary of State Henry
[0:58] Kissinger, live from New York,
[1:01] Senators Charles Mathias of Maryland of
[1:03] the Foreign Relations Committee, and Sam
[1:06] Nunn of Georgia of the Armed Services
[1:08] Committee, here in our studio.
[1:10] And a little discussion of this terrible
[1:13] news with George Will, Sam Donaldson,
[1:16] and Hodding Carter.
[1:18] First, to ABC's John Martin, who has put
[1:21] together a report on the explosion and a
[1:23] very heavy loss of life in Beirut this
[1:26] morning, just after midnight Eastern US
[1:29] time. John.
[1:35] In the early light this morning,
[1:37] American and French troops picked their
[1:39] way through the rubble of two compounds
[1:41] in Beirut searching for their comrades.
[1:44] Ambulances began arriving, and medics
[1:47] started moving out the wounded.
[1:49] Other Marines moved among the dead,
[1:51] covering their bodies.
[1:53] Reconstructed by US Embassy and Marine
[1:55] officials in Beirut, The attack unfolded
[1:58] this way. Shortly after 6:15 this
[2:00] morning, one truck smashed into the US
[2:03] compound at the airport. One minute
[2:05] later, a second truck smashed into the
[2:07] French compound about 3 miles away. Both
[2:10] drivers apparently died. An American
[2:12] spokesman said the airport invader
[2:14] somehow drove through a checkpoint at
[2:16] the Marine perimeter, sped down this
[2:18] roadway, then swung into a parking lot
[2:20] ramming a metal barrier before swerving
[2:23] around a second barrier and overrunning
[2:25] American sentries.
[2:27] We figure it had to have at least 2,000
[2:29] lb of TNT.
[2:31] It was observed coming at a high rate of
[2:33] speed from the south of the building.
[2:36] Crashed through the gate and through the
[2:38] guard post and then detonated inside the
[2:41] lobby.
[2:42] At the French compound meanwhile, the
[2:44] explosion collapsed an eight-story
[2:46] building trapping many troops.
[2:54] In the United States, President Reagan
[2:55] flew back to Washington from Georgia to
[2:57] convene the National Security Council. I
[3:00] know there are no words
[3:02] that can express our sorrow and grief
[3:06] over the loss of those splendid young
[3:08] men
[3:10] and the injury to so many others.
[3:11] Secretary of Defense Caspar Weinberger
[3:13] said there would be no withdrawal or
[3:15] retreat from the multinational
[3:17] peacekeeping force. The whole question,
[3:20] as I said, of how we protect the
[3:22] Marines, how we reduce their
[3:23] vulnerability, and how we enable them to
[3:25] carry out their mission are some of the
[3:27] things that are under review by us, by
[3:29] our allies. None of this has any
[3:32] possibility of reducing the commitment
[3:35] that we have all made. The Pentagon said
[3:37] it was sending transport planes from
[3:38] Europe to fly some of the wounded to US
[3:41] military hospitals in West Germany. At
[3:43] the American compound meanwhile, many
[3:45] Marines seemed dazed and stunned. Their
[3:48] outfit, the 24th Amphibious Unit, had
[3:50] apparently been scheduled for rotation
[3:52] home to North Carolina next month.
[3:55] John Martin, ABC News, Washington.
[3:59] John, thank you.
[4:00] ABC's Al Dale is standing by in Beirut
[4:03] on the telephone. Al, bring us up to
[4:05] date on what's happening there on the
[4:06] ground at the moment.
[4:08] Well, David, it is dark now, it being
[4:10] just past 7:30 p.m. in Beirut, but the
[4:13] work goes on, the searching goes on for
[4:15] more, hopefully, survivors, but most
[4:17] likely more bodies to be found in both
[4:19] those locations, the Marines at the
[4:21] airport and the French paratroopers
[4:23] closer to downtown. They're using bright
[4:25] lights to continue the search. They want
[4:27] to make sure everyone is accounted for.
[4:30] A number of the men who were stationed
[4:32] at the Marine compound there in that
[4:34] building were on leave or on duty
[4:36] elsewhere, so it's taking them a while
[4:38] to really account for everyone, but
[4:40] they're still working here at night
[4:41] using jackhammers to get through the
[4:43] thick concrete. This, of course, is the
[4:45] most devastating attack on the Marines
[4:47] or, as a matter of fact, on the
[4:48] multinational force yet. And, as you
[4:51] will recall, two Marines were killed
[4:53] just over a week ago by snipers, and
[4:57] that's an indication of the perverse
[4:59] level of
[5:01] violence in this country.
[5:03] While the research while the search was
[5:04] going on this afternoon, some of the
[5:06] searchers themselves came under sniper
[5:09] fire from the same area that have been
[5:10] sniping at the Marines before. Al, thank
[5:13] you. Thanks very much.
[5:15] ABC's Ann Compton is at the White House,
[5:17] where there have been meetings about
[5:19] this this morning, and there likely will
[5:20] be more this afternoon. Ann, would you
[5:22] bring us up to date from there?
[5:24] Yes, David, President Reagan is
[5:26] absolutely committed to keeping the U.S.
[5:28] Marines in their peacekeeping role in
[5:30] Lebanon. After 2 hours in the White
[5:32] House Situation Room this morning with
[5:34] his top national security advisers, the
[5:36] president gave his gave his foreign
[5:38] policy team 5 hours to come up with some
[5:41] options on how to better safeguard the
[5:43] American lives. We're told there is no
[5:45] consideration being given to either
[5:47] increasing or decreasing the size of the
[5:50] American force there. Instead, there are
[5:52] broad hints there here that the
[5:55] president would rather see the
[5:57] the position or the location of the
[5:58] American Marines changed in some way.
[6:01] They of course are in a very flat land
[6:03] around the Beirut Airport. There's some
[6:05] indications here given they would
[6:07] consider some kind of expansion of the
[6:09] perimeters or the buffer zone around
[6:11] that area to keep them from being sniped
[6:13] upon.
[6:14] I would like to do that.
[6:16] Well, they they feel that the Marines
[6:18] are terribly vulnerable and although it
[6:19] was the Marines lot to draw the airport
[6:22] as their mission for the peacekeeping
[6:24] role, they think they can give them a
[6:27] little bit more room, a little bit more
[6:29] safety because the president has made
[6:31] this point. He believes that the Marines
[6:33] are being targeted not by the warring
[6:36] Lebanese factions, but indeed by
[6:37] terrorists. And that's the other
[6:39] interesting point from this David this
[6:40] morning. We were told after that
[6:42] situation room session that President
[6:44] Reagan has intelligence information
[6:47] pointing the finger at pro-Khomeini
[6:49] Iranian-linked forces and terrorists in
[6:51] the country of Lebanon which have been
[6:54] trying to get American and French forces
[6:56] out of the country.
[6:57] Thank you. Thanks very much.
[7:00] Now we're going to the Pentagon which is
[7:01] when been probably our best source of
[7:03] information this morning to John McWethy
[7:05] of ABC. John,
[7:07] what's what do you what have you learned
[7:08] there?
[7:09] David, as is frequently the case when
[7:11] there is a crisis like this, different
[7:13] parts of the government are lobbying for
[7:14] different kinds of solutions. Here at
[7:16] the Pentagon, they are starting to say
[7:18] now, should we reduce the number of
[7:20] Americans in that area? They're
[7:22] beginning to lobby for that type of
[7:24] option. If you add more troops, if you
[7:27] expand the perimeter to try to reduce
[7:29] the number of snipers and terrorist
[7:31] attacks on the Americans, you also
[7:32] provide them with more targets. And that
[7:35] has been a central theme of what has
[7:37] been discussed here at the Pentagon.
[7:38] That option is being knocked down by a
[7:41] number of military sources, although
[7:42] they continue to stress that no
[7:44] decisions have yet been made on how to
[7:46] deal with the situation. Now, they say
[7:48] 120 Americans have been killed, but they
[7:51] also stress that there are a number of
[7:53] critically wounded Americans who have
[7:54] been evacuated to West Germany and
[7:56] Cyprus. Those Americans, they fear that
[7:59] the number 120 may go higher in the next
[8:01] 24 hours. John, thank you very much.
[8:05] We'll be back with our first guest, the
[8:06] Secretary of Defense Caspar Weinberger,
[8:08] who is standing by at the Pentagon in a
[8:11] moment.
[8:15] This week [music] with David Brinkley,
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[9:54] Secretary of Defense, Caspar Weinberger,
[9:56] standing by at the Pentagon. Mr.
[9:58] Secretary, thanks very much for coming
[9:59] in to talk with us this morning and to
[10:01] tell what you can about this terrible
[10:03] tragedy.
[10:05] Here with me are George Will of ABC News
[10:08] and Sam Donaldson, ABC News White House
[10:10] correspondent.
[10:12] Mr. Secretary, as you've heard what we
[10:14] have reported so far, is there anything
[10:16] new
[10:17] newer than that? No, I I don't know of
[10:19] anything
[10:20] that is
[10:21] significantly new. We are continuing, of
[10:23] course, to evacuate the
[10:26] the wounded and to treat them in the
[10:28] various hospitals of both on on board
[10:31] the task force ships and some being
[10:33] evacuated, of course, to Europe, but
[10:36] there has not been any any major new
[10:38] development. There is some sniper fire
[10:40] coming in on the rescue efforts.
[10:43] Sniper fire continues and it's I suppose
[10:45] it's a difficult to stop. Yes. Mr.
[10:47] Secretary, earlier today you talked
[10:49] about
[10:50] a group having links with Iran that may
[10:53] be responsible for this outrage. You
[10:55] said you were still sifting the
[10:56] evidence. It's not clear whether you
[10:58] meant that they simply had links with
[11:00] Iran or whether you were suggesting that
[11:02] the Iranian government itself had
[11:05] ordered this. Which was it? Well, I
[11:07] think it's comparatively immaterial. The
[11:10] two are pretty much the same thing, but
[11:12] again, I emphasize that what I was
[11:14] talking about were some some initial and
[11:17] some circumstantial factors and some of
[11:20] these same circumstances were present in
[11:22] the bombing of the American Embassy a
[11:24] few months ago and there was again a
[11:26] terrible loss of life. There are other
[11:28] possibilities and they're are being
[11:30] investigated very carefully
[11:33] and obviously being investigated with
[11:34] the idea of trying to do something about
[11:36] it when we can establish what we believe
[11:39] is the truth.
[11:39] >> Well, sir, if I may press you, you said
[11:41] the two are the same thing. Is that
[11:44] right? I mean, isn't there a difference
[11:45] between a group that has some allegiance
[11:47] to Iran doing this and the Iranian
[11:50] government actually ordering it? Well,
[11:52] possibly some some technical difference,
[11:54] but I wouldn't think significantly. No,
[11:55] not the way the government there is
[11:57] constituted. Mr. Secretary, during the
[11:59] campaign, candidate Ronald Reagan,
[12:02] speaking at a time when there were
[12:03] American hostages held by
[12:05] act of the Iranian government, said this
[12:07] sort of thing would not happen again if
[12:10] he became president. Now, if
[12:13] this is is found to be an act of the
[12:15] Iranian state, what sort of retaliation
[12:17] do you think would be appropriate? Well,
[12:19] I've not really ever answered
[12:20] hypothetical questions and I certainly
[12:22] don't want to start now with our
[12:23] evidence incomplete, but
[12:25] one of the things we're looking at are
[12:27] the number of things that we might try
[12:28] to do and the number of options that
[12:30] would be available to us to do. We
[12:32] haven't established anything finally
[12:34] yet. There's a great deal of confusion,
[12:36] obviously, and a lot of conflicting
[12:38] reports. And I was mentioning one set
[12:41] that did seem to have some considerable
[12:43] circumstantial evidence that way, but as
[12:47] to what would be done if something were
[12:48] ultimately established, I wouldn't go
[12:50] into any hypotheticals this morning.
[12:52] Mr. Secretary, there will be a great
[12:54] deal of talk about this in the next few
[12:55] days, you certainly are aware.
[12:58] So, I would like to have your opinion.
[13:00] Now, have you been thoroughly satisfied
[13:02] all the time at keeping a Marine force
[13:05] in Lebanon? Well, we have a number of
[13:07] different situations that come up in
[13:09] connection with this. We have had now
[13:11] for well over a year.
[13:13] We had a force in that accomplished a
[13:14] great deal. The PLO was taken out of
[13:17] Beirut and
[13:18] practically broken as a military force
[13:20] and that was a great accomplishment. We
[13:24] then had to go back in because of the
[13:25] massacres in the two
[13:28] refugee camps and because of the
[13:29] assassination of President Gemayel's
[13:31] brother.
[13:32] All of these situations change from time
[13:34] to time and differing kinds of events
[13:37] required differing advice and the
[13:39] president gets
[13:40] a lot of advice and recommendations as
[13:42] he always has and as he wants and he
[13:44] makes decisions and I respect those
[13:47] decisions and follow them because I
[13:49] think that the decisions he makes are
[13:51] the right ones.
[13:52] Mr. Secretary, there does however seem
[13:54] as this happens out today underscores to
[13:56] be rather less peace today than when the
[13:58] peacekeeping forces went in. Can you
[14:01] tell us what objective 1300 Marines
[14:04] have, military objective, and how 1300
[14:07] Marines at an airport contribute to
[14:09] peace in Lebanon? Well, you have to bear
[14:11] in mind what the original mission was
[14:12] and the original mission hasn't changed,
[14:14] but it certainly has become more
[14:15] difficult. I don't argue with that for a
[14:17] moment with you. The original mission
[14:20] was to interpose a multinational
[14:22] peacekeeping force that could give
[14:24] confidence to the troops who would be
[14:26] withdrawing from Syria from very close
[14:28] combat with each other under agreements
[14:31] that we hope to work out. Now, Syria has
[14:33] refused to sign any agreement despite
[14:34] the fact that the
[14:36] Lebanese government has requested it and
[14:38] that many of the Arab governments have
[14:39] requested it. Israel did agree to
[14:41] withdraw and have withdrawn partway, but
[14:43] they will only go all the way when the
[14:45] others withdraw. The PLO would
[14:46] presumably follow the Syrians, but since
[14:48] the Syrians won't agree to withdraw, the
[14:51] situation remains as you say very
[14:53] difficult and and unresolved, but the
[14:55] mission remains the same. This group of
[14:58] Marines and this multinational force
[15:00] including the French who've also
[15:01] suffered a grievous blow at today.
[15:04] They weren't to go out and conquer
[15:05] Lebanon or to destroy all the forces in
[15:08] Lebanon. They were to give confidence
[15:09] and and to bring about a situation in
[15:12] which the occupying forces would
[15:14] withdraw. Israeli, PLO, Syrians and all
[15:17] the rest. That still remains the mission
[15:20] and it still dictates the size and
[15:22] composition of our force. Mr. Secretary,
[15:25] why were the security barriers no
[15:26] stronger than they were this morning so
[15:28] that a pickup truck could penetrate to
[15:30] that building in the Beirut Airport?
[15:32] Well, the security barriers were
[15:35] the same kind that they you would have
[15:37] in any sort of building in a public in
[15:41] an area open to the public and occupied
[15:43] by the public. This is a
[15:44] one of the regular buildings that has
[15:47] been used in the administration of the
[15:49] Beirut Airport. Mr.
[15:50] >> Which from time to time is open and this
[15:52] truck drove right straight through a
[15:55] Marine guard post. It drove through a
[15:57] fence
[15:58] and it drove into the lobby of the
[16:00] building. Now, if anybody is willing to
[16:03] kill themselves in the in the setting
[16:05] off of a dynamite explosion,
[16:07] it obviously makes a very difficult task
[16:09] to stop. Exactly the way it was in World
[16:11] War
[16:12] when the Kamikaze pilots were willing to
[16:15] dive right into the carrier.
[16:16] >> Mr. Secretary, two points if I may and I
[16:18] would like you to respond to them. As
[16:19] you know, earlier this year a car laden
[16:22] with the explosives drove into our
[16:24] American Embassy in Beirut and blew it
[16:25] up. There we had an example that might
[16:28] have been instructive. And secondly, in
[16:30] Vietnam, if my memory is correct, we
[16:32] learned to protect ourselves against the
[16:34] suitcase and car bomb at our BOQs by
[16:37] simply putting up steel barriers so that
[16:40] automobiles couldn't get that close to
[16:41] the building. Why didn't we do it in
[16:43] Beirut? Unfortunately, this is not that
[16:45] kind of a building. This is a building
[16:46] that is in regular use. Trucks are there
[16:48] all hours of the day and night as indeed
[16:51] they have to be. This was the battalion
[16:53] headquarters of the of the Marine force
[16:55] in a building that was part of the
[16:57] administration of a of a public airport.
[17:00] And part of the mission that we are
[17:02] trying to fulfill is to restore normal
[17:04] life to
[17:06] to Lebanon. It's very easy using
[17:08] hindsight to say we shouldn't have
[17:10] permitted a single truck to go in and
[17:11] out of a Marine headquarters. But that
[17:13] would be a pretty impossible result and
[17:15] uh is a terrible and tragic occurrence.
[17:18] Uh and it is important to look at ways
[17:20] that uh we could uh uh
[17:22] do uh deal perhaps more more stringently
[17:25] with the uh security that is needed. But
[17:28] uh if any group in the world knows the
[17:29] need for security, uh it is the Marine
[17:32] force on the ground, and they have taken
[17:34] all precautions, but there are some uh
[17:36] events against which you can't take
[17:37] precautions any more than our carriers
[17:39] in World War II were able to stop
[17:41] kamikaze pilots who were willing to uh
[17:43] kill themselves and their planes and and
[17:45] any anything else in in the in their
[17:47] path in order to inflict damage, and
[17:49] that is uh exactly the nature of the
[17:51] terrorism that has been done. That's one
[17:53] of the pieces of circumstantial evidence
[17:55] to which I referred earlier.
[17:57] Mr. Secretary, I must interrupt briefly.
[18:01] We'll be back with more questions for
[18:03] Secretary of Defense Weinberger in a
[18:04] moment.
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[19:26] Mr. Secretary, we have already heard
[19:28] this morning from President Reagan
[19:31] that we will not withdraw our troops
[19:33] from Lebanon as a result of a brutal
[19:36] attack like this.
[19:37] So,
[19:38] the plan then is to leave our forces in
[19:41] Lebanon in what amounts to a middle
[19:44] ground in a civil war. Is that right?
[19:46] No, sir, that is not right. The
[19:48] President said very clearly this morning
[19:50] that this kind of activity will not
[19:53] deter the United States from maintaining
[19:55] its commitment to restoring peace in the
[19:58] area and to bringing Lebanon back to a
[20:01] position of an unoccupied sovereign
[20:03] nation
[20:04] on which peace can be built in the whole
[20:05] region. How you do that is obviously
[20:08] something that is clearly under under
[20:09] review. And that is one of the things on
[20:12] which we're spending the most time as to
[20:14] how to get the Marines in a less
[20:16] vulnerable, better defended position
[20:18] without weakening our commitment to
[20:20] trying to achieve peace in the Mideast.
[20:22] The President was talking about, very
[20:24] properly so, the maintenance of that
[20:26] commitment and the fact that we will not
[20:28] be driven away from that commitment. But
[20:30] how we do that and how we try to do it
[20:32] better and in a way that protects our
[20:34] Marines and in a way that enables us to
[20:35] be more effective, these are all the
[20:37] things that quite properly we are
[20:39] examining. Mr. Secretary, a moment ago
[20:41] you said that the original purpose of
[20:43] the peacekeeping force was to interpose
[20:45] itself between withdrawing forces and
[20:47] you noted that the forces they were
[20:49] supposed to be between are not
[20:50] withdrawing. Now, in answer to David's
[20:52] question, you said the mission is to
[20:54] restore the peace.
[20:55] And I think what's troubling a lot of
[20:57] Americans is they don't see how 12 or
[20:59] 1,300 Marines
[21:01] can restore peace to a land in that kind
[21:04] of turmoil. Or is the force sufficient
[21:06] to the mission? 1,200 or 1,300 Marines
[21:08] can do the mission that I described,
[21:10] which is still the mission. The mission,
[21:11] as I said a moment ago, was never to go
[21:14] in and conquer Lebanon or to drive
[21:16] everybody out of Lebanon that shouldn't
[21:17] be there or anything of the kind. The
[21:19] The idea was to try to secure
[21:21] agreements, diplomatic and political
[21:23] agreement, by which these various
[21:25] foreign occupying forces would withdraw.
[21:27] And there was recognized to be a need to
[21:30] have a force in there to give the
[21:32] withdrawing forces, the forces that we
[21:34] hope would sign these withdrawal
[21:35] agreements, confidence that they
[21:37] wouldn't be shot at by people violating
[21:39] the agreements on their way out and so
[21:40] on.
[21:41] Uh the mission was
[21:43] the force is sized exactly to that
[21:45] mission. And it still is proper for the
[21:48] the fulfillment of that mission. That
[21:49] mission is obviously made more difficult
[21:52] when you have a number of additional
[21:53] warring factions growing up and and
[21:56] arming themselves and shooting at each
[21:58] other and and at everyone else they can
[22:00] find. And the mission's obviously made
[22:02] more difficult if the various parties
[22:04] won't sign the agreements. And so far we
[22:07] do not have the Syrians, we don't have
[22:09] the PLO, we have the Israelis only part
[22:11] way. So that you have to get those
[22:13] forces out. That's what the Marines and
[22:15] the MNF of all of the nations went in to
[22:17] accomplish. That's still the mission.
[22:19] But given how heavily [clears throat]
[22:21] and increasingly the Syrians appear to
[22:22] be dependent on the Soviet Union, is it
[22:25] not in Syria's, therefore the Soviet
[22:27] Union's interest for the United States
[22:28] to be bogged down there just as they are
[22:30] now?
[22:31] Well, the whole involvement of the
[22:33] Soviet Union in Syria adds another
[22:35] complicating and extremely unwelcome and
[22:39] very dangerous factor in the equation.
[22:42] It is another reason why we should
[22:43] persist in our efforts
[22:45] to secure peace
[22:47] by an unoccupied sovereign Lebanon
[22:50] that's strong enough to to accomplish
[22:52] that. And we're we're doing quite a lot
[22:53] of that in ways that aren't publicized
[22:55] much. And that's in the enormous
[22:57] strengthening and re-equipping of the
[22:58] Lebanese armed force, which is now a
[23:00] major military factor in the equation.
[23:02] >> Mr. Secretary
[23:03] >> if I could just finish, please. The fact
[23:05] that the Soviets are there and the fact
[23:07] that they are pouring enormous military
[23:09] resources into Syria and the fact that
[23:11] this seems to be encouraging Syria not
[23:13] to withdraw and not to fulfill the
[23:15] commitments they made earlier to
[23:16] withdraw, certainly adds to the danger,
[23:19] but it also is a very significant reason
[23:21] why we should not simply turn our backs
[23:23] on our commitment. This is not to say
[23:25] that we can't search for ways to fulfill
[23:27] that commitment in in ways that meaning
[23:30] that rendered the Marines far less
[23:31] vulnerable and it puts them in a better
[23:33] defensive position than they are at
[23:35] present.
[23:35] >> Well, Mr. Secretary, is it possible that
[23:37] we could fulfill that equipment if we
[23:38] withdraw the Marines to the naval force
[23:41] that's just off the coast? That's
[23:42] possible? Yes, the naval force has
[23:44] enormous
[23:46] firepower. The New Jersey is perhaps the
[23:48] most powerful single ship in the world.
[23:50] A carrier battle group is there
[23:52] and it is possible to reinforce that and
[23:54] and have
[23:56] a very large amount of firepower that
[23:58] could be ready to be used to
[24:01] ensure that withdrawing forces, if they
[24:03] ever can
[24:05] the Syrians ever will sign these
[24:07] agreements and and we can get all of the
[24:09] factors and all of the forces together.
[24:12] Then there are that is one of the ways.
[24:15] The Marines themselves would not
[24:18] leave the area, but that this is only
[24:19] one of the options that we're talking
[24:21] about.
[24:22] >> Mr. Secretary, no matter what you do, do
[24:23] you feel that the president will believe
[24:25] he must now go back to Congress and say
[24:27] the situation has changed. I want once
[24:29] again to consult with Congress, not
[24:31] simply inform them, or does he believe
[24:33] that the 18-month mandate which Congress
[24:35] gave him will be sufficient to cover
[24:36] whatever he decides?
[24:37] >> No, I think there's every desire and
[24:39] every intention to consult with the
[24:40] Congress and part of that process is
[24:42] already started.
[24:44] Mr. Secretary, in terms of what is at
[24:46] stake here, we've been hearing this
[24:47] morning from members of Congress
[24:50] saying that if we withdrew withdrew the
[24:53] Marines, that Syria would rather quickly
[24:56] take over Lebanon with the Soviet Union
[24:58] at its back. Do you agree with that
[24:59] assessment?
[24:59] >> Well, I have indicated that one of the
[25:01] dangerous parts of this equation is the
[25:03] enormous Soviet military assistance and
[25:05] Soviet military presence in Syria,
[25:07] something incidentally that I think
[25:09] Syria will come bitterly to regret very
[25:11] shortly.
[25:12] Uh but uh if they don't already uh but
[25:15] we cannot simply turn our backs on the
[25:17] whole Mideast
[25:18] uh and the consign it to anarchy or to
[25:20] Soviet communist domination,
[25:22] [clears throat] which is very much the
[25:23] same thing as far as we're concerned. Uh
[25:25] we have major interest there. The world,
[25:27] the free world has major interest there
[25:29] and uh we have to recognize that our own
[25:32] national interest requires that one way
[25:34] or another we fulfill those commitments
[25:37] to ourselves and to our friends and our
[25:39] allies in the world. But we can do that.
[25:42] Uh I believe at least we can certainly
[25:44] look very carefully at whether we can do
[25:45] that in ways that will render the
[25:47] Marines less vulnerable and try to
[25:49] reduce at least these horrible things
[25:53] that have happened such as the incident
[25:55] this morning.
[25:56] The Syrians have been asked by the
[25:58] government of Lebanon to leave and
[25:59] having stayed there are now formally an
[26:01] aggressive occupying power. Correct.
[26:04] They've they've been asked by us to
[26:05] leave. That's correct.
[26:06] >> Is it beyond our capacity or our current
[26:08] intentions to do more than ask them to
[26:11] leave? Is there some way we can make a
[26:12] credible threat? Well, again I don't
[26:15] want to get into any hypotheticals or
[26:17] any of the matters that
[26:18] >> sir, is this really hypothetical?
[26:20] >> I don't want to get into anything that
[26:21] is hypothetical or anything that is
[26:22] under active discussion at the moment.
[26:25] All I I have said is that we have our
[26:28] goals and the things that we think are
[26:30] essential [clears throat] to bring peace
[26:31] to the Mideast and one of them is to get
[26:33] Lebanon in a sovereign unoccupied
[26:37] form in which it is strong enough to
[26:39] take care of its own borders and we're
[26:41] well on the road to helping the Lebanese
[26:44] armed force secure that kind of
[26:45] capability. The one completely unified
[26:49] and well-equipped, well-trained force in
[26:51] Lebanon today is the Lebanese armed
[26:52] force and that's doing very large part
[26:55] to their own willingness and to our to
[26:57] to do all the things necessary to do
[26:59] that and our own ability to resupply
[27:01] them, which is one of the great untold
[27:03] stories of this whole episode so far. We
[27:05] have made massive efforts and very
[27:07] successful efforts to equip that
[27:09] Lebanese armed force to the point that
[27:11] as you saw a few weeks ago, they were
[27:13] able to to hold out and win a battle at
[27:16] Souk El Gharb that was of critical
[27:17] importance to the whole region.
[27:19] Mr. Secretary, thank you very much for
[27:21] coming in and for talking with us today.
[27:23] We've enjoyed having you. Thank you very
[27:25] much.
[27:25] Coming next, former Secretary of State
[27:27] Henry Kissinger, who has must have spent
[27:29] more time and done more negotiating in
[27:31] the Middle East than any other American.
[27:34] In a moment.
[27:37] Hello. I like this Remington Micro
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[28:02] the Lady Remington rechargeable, the
[28:03] perfect gift. Shaves without a cord.
[28:07] You know, the secret to a comfortable
[28:08] retirement is really no secret.
[28:11] You need a smart investment firm to help
[28:12] you get there. And the best way to find
[28:14] that investment firm is to ask a lot of
[28:16] questions. Katie and I asked. And the
[28:18] more we asked, the more good things we
[28:20] heard about one company, Dean Witter. We
[28:22] heard about the quality of their
[28:24] financial advice and programs. We heard
[28:26] they really listen, really care. For us,
[28:29] Dean Witter was worth asking about.
[28:33] Dean Witter, worth asking about.
[28:38] This week [music] with David Brinkley
[28:39] will continue in a moment.
[28:43] Tomorrow, an interview with President
[28:44] Reagan about national and world affairs
[28:47] on Good Morning America.
[28:49] Hi, Mrs. Brown.
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[29:18] Fresh Start got straight A's on all
[29:20] these stains when we took out in Stuart
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[29:24] splattered on ketchup. There smeared on
[29:27] finger paint.
[29:29] And there rubbed on mud. Nothing gets
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[29:49] See a salute to Larry Gatlin today at
[29:51] 5:00.
[29:58] Mr. Kissinger, thank you very much for
[29:59] coming in and talking with us today.
[30:01] We're pleased to have you with us. Thank
[30:03] you.
[30:04] From um the news we have all heard in
[30:07] the last few hours and from your
[30:09] knowledge and experience in the Middle
[30:11] East,
[30:12] what would be the proper response for
[30:14] this country to the outrage of this
[30:17] morning?
[30:19] I think the most fundamental problem is
[30:20] to define what our purposes are in
[30:23] Lebanon,
[30:24] in the Middle East, and in the Persian
[30:26] Gulf.
[30:27] Three areas which are very closely
[30:28] related. I do not think that there is
[30:30] any possible answer in terms of 1,200 or
[30:32] 1,400 Marines. And even less is there
[30:35] any answer in whether you move them from
[30:37] one location in Beirut to another.
[30:39] I think these forces right now don't
[30:41] have a mission. I don't think it is it
[30:43] is clear what we are trying to achieve
[30:45] in in Beirut
[30:47] or what the relationship of that to the
[30:49] plan put forward by President Reagan
[30:51] last year, which I consider a key
[30:54] step forward
[30:56] or to the whole credibility of the
[30:58] United States in the area. That's the
[31:00] fundamental problem, not whether you can
[31:02] locate Marines that are supposed to
[31:03] bring peace into an area where they are
[31:06] in less danger. That's a contradiction
[31:07] in terms.
[31:09] Mr. Secretary Secretary, former
[31:10] Secretary, one of the objectives of the
[31:13] Reagan foreign policy, a grand theme,
[31:15] has been to project American force and
[31:17] cure the image that they thought America
[31:19] had of being impotent.
[31:21] How can the United States avoid having
[31:23] another demonstration of impotence and
[31:25] another protracted failure
[31:27] if it is stuck with the mission as
[31:29] recently defined now of restoring peace
[31:33] in a shattered country?
[31:36] Well,
[31:37] if we can define restoring peace in some
[31:40] way in which we contribute to the
[31:42] balance of power
[31:44] and to the power of the forces that are
[31:46] moderate and are on our side, then I
[31:48] think we can contribute to peace. But if
[31:50] we are sitting there fairly passively
[31:52] getting shot at while the radical forces
[31:54] are gaining in strength every day
[31:57] while the government that was put in a
[31:59] few year ago and which is moderate and
[32:01] recognized by us
[32:02] is gradually weakened, I don't think
[32:04] that we are we are then contributing it.
[32:06] But why why would it be in the interest
[32:08] of Syria to withdraw given that the
[32:10] United States appears to be stuck in in
[32:12] a very disagreeable position? I don't
[32:14] think Syria will withdraw unless
[32:16] the balance of power within Lebanon
[32:18] changes and I must point out it is an
[32:21] amazing phenomenon that the Israeli army
[32:23] is sitting 20 km from where Americans
[32:25] are being killed
[32:26] and that there seems to be no
[32:27] coordination between our policies at
[32:29] all.
[32:30] >> Is the Israeli army what you're thinking
[32:31] of when you think of changing in in a
[32:33] favorable way for the United States the
[32:35] balance of power in Lebanon?
[32:36] >> of the Israeli army, and I don't I have
[32:38] been I was not in favor of sending
[32:40] American forces to Beirut to begin with.
[32:43] I've been saying for months we either
[32:44] have to do more or less. If we're doing
[32:47] it as a solitary American effort, there
[32:48] is no sense having American forces that
[32:51] cannot make a decisive difference to the
[32:54] situation. I would now, in the present
[32:56] circumstances, like to make a decisive
[32:58] difference.
[32:59] And I do not favor a withdrawal of
[33:01] American forces in the circumstances
[33:03] that have arisen. But I also believe
[33:05] that if we continue to sit there
[33:07] passively, if all the other forces that
[33:09] could be on our side are passive, we
[33:11] will see a gradual disintegration of the
[33:14] Lebanese government, and we would have
[33:16] seen it without this outrage today. This
[33:18] outrage gives us an opportunity to take
[33:21] a new look at the situation, and it
[33:23] should be used for that purpose. Well,
[33:25] Dr. Kissinger, you say you don't favor
[33:27] the withdrawal of American forces under
[33:28] the present circumstances, but I take it
[33:30] you don't favor increasing the number,
[33:32] do you?
[33:34] Uh if there were if there were a
[33:36] coherent plan in which the balance of
[33:38] forces in Lebanon were to be
[33:41] were to be put into a more favorable
[33:43] position, I would not exclude increasing
[33:45] American forces. It couldn't be done It
[33:47] would have to be done in coordination
[33:49] with other friendly forces there.
[33:51] >> If American forces are increased, what
[33:53] would be their mission, and how would
[33:54] you define a new mission?
[33:57] The The problem in Lebanon at this
[33:59] moment is whether the radical forces,
[34:01] those supported or encouraged by the
[34:03] Syrians and and the Soviets, will
[34:06] gradually gain such a degree of
[34:07] dominance that the moderate government
[34:10] will atrophy, and that Syria become and
[34:12] that Lebanon becomes a Syrian province.
[34:15] That is the fundamental issue, and to
[34:17] call something a conference of national
[34:21] reconciliation is just a subterfuge
[34:23] for achieving it. Therefore, we have two
[34:25] choices. Either we will change that
[34:28] balance
[34:29] and and bring about a better balance
[34:31] between radicals and moderates, which
[34:33] requires coordination between all the
[34:35] friendly forces, or we will see whether
[34:38] Americans get killed or not, or whether
[34:40] Americans are there or not.
[34:42] A gradual weakening of the moderate
[34:45] forces and progressive increase of the
[34:47] radical forces and a precipitous
[34:49] [clears throat] decline of our position.
[34:51] But Dr. Kissinger, let let me let me see
[34:53] if I understand you. You say the
[34:54] American forces are sent there and held
[34:57] in a passive role, while the Israeli
[35:00] army nearby remains in a passive role.
[35:03] Well, you have to remember, David, the
[35:05] American forces were sent there
[35:06] originally
[35:08] in order to separate the Arab and
[35:11] Israeli forces. And they were not being
[35:13] shot at as long as they were performing
[35:14] a function that both sides wanted. Then
[35:17] the Israelis withdrew
[35:19] some 20 miles,
[35:21] leaving the Americans
[35:23] in facing all the contending forces in
[35:25] Lebanon that have been fighting a civil
[35:27] war for 10 years and have had, I
[35:29] believe, 58 ceasefires in that period,
[35:33] none of which lasted for more than uh
[35:36] for more than 6 months.
[35:38] But Dr. Dr. Kissinger, I'm fascinated by
[35:40] your answer to my question about what a
[35:41] new mission would be for increased
[35:43] American forces. As I understood your
[35:45] answer, you talked about bringing about
[35:47] a different balance between moderate and
[35:49] radical factions. Do you mean American
[35:52] >> If the mission of the United States
[35:55] forces is to bring about peace,
[35:57] it will not bring about They cannot
[35:59] bring about peace by simply sitting
[36:00] there. Well, then they they go through
[36:02] and with force of arms prevent fighting.
[36:04] How do they do it?
[36:06] They will either
[36:08] The choice is All I'm saying is that the
[36:11] that we are forced to face the following
[36:14] choice. If we continue to sit in our
[36:16] present positions, we will continue to
[36:19] suffer casualties, and there will be a
[36:21] gradual attrition of the
[36:24] of the government of Lebanon.
[36:26] If we are willing to accept this, then I
[36:30] would feel that sooner or later we ought
[36:31] to withdraw our forces. I don't think
[36:34] they serve a useful purpose.
[36:36] If we want to bring about a
[36:38] change in the balance of forces there,
[36:41] then we have to see whether other
[36:42] countries that are also interested in
[36:44] this would be willing
[36:46] to run risks, and in that context, I
[36:49] would be willing also to increase
[36:50] American forces, which would then have
[36:52] to take on some of the radical elements
[36:54] that are shooting at them. And shoot
[36:56] back? Certainly.
[36:58] It sounds almost as though you're
[36:59] suggesting
[37:00] >> doesn't make any sense to say American
[37:01] forces are put somewhere simply to
[37:04] defend themselves. They can defend
[37:06] themselves better in Camp Lejeune.
[37:08] If that's all they're If that's all
[37:10] they're doing in Beirut. It seems Dr.
[37:12] Kissinger, as though you're almost
[37:13] suggesting a joint Israeli-American
[37:17] effort to change the balance of forces
[37:19] on the ground. Is that it?
[37:20] I think the
[37:23] I think
[37:24] it's essentially
[37:25] if we want peace in uh there there are
[37:28] two possibilities. If the present
[37:30] balance of forces continues, we will
[37:32] gradually we'll see a radical Lebanon.
[37:35] If we do not want a radical Lebanon,
[37:37] then
[37:38] there has to be a coordinated action to
[37:40] change the balance of forces, after
[37:42] which I think we should move rapidly
[37:44] into negotiations to remove all foreign
[37:47] forces. I strongly support the
[37:49] objectives put forward by Secretary
[37:51] Weinberger, but they will not be
[37:53] achieved in the present circumstances.
[37:56] Are you suggesting that Syria be pushed,
[37:59] physically, militarily pushed out of
[38:01] Lebanon?
[38:02] I'm suggesting that
[38:04] no negotiation
[38:07] occurs in a vacuum.
[38:09] Uh that last year, when the Syrians
[38:12] offered to withdraw or allegedly offered
[38:14] to withdraw, there was one balance of
[38:16] forces. That has been altered by the
[38:18] withdrawal of the Israeli forces. It has
[38:21] been altered by the passivity of the
[38:23] Western countries and by the
[38:26] uh
[38:27] massive rearmament of the Syrian army.
[38:29] Now, in this new balance of forces, the
[38:31] radical elements are the dominant force
[38:33] in the Lebanese negotiations.
[38:36] And that has the practical consequence
[38:38] that we see
[38:40] weekly an erosion of the power of the uh
[38:43] Gemayel government and
[38:46] of in this respect, what happened today
[38:48] is a symptom, not a cause.
[38:50] Why did it happen today? Was it to try
[38:51] to
[38:52] uh get public opinion in France and the
[38:54] United States to force the withdrawal?
[38:56] >> I think it's quite possible uh
[38:58] that Secretary Weinberger's hypothesis
[39:01] is quite quite plausible to me. Uh when
[39:03] a situation gets out of control, then uh
[39:06] any radical force can feel that it has a
[39:08] free shot
[39:10] uh at us and they may also believe that
[39:13] a further humiliation of the United
[39:15] States, a further demonstration of our
[39:16] impotence can only accelerate the
[39:19] processes of chaos which they are in
[39:21] which they are fomenting.
[39:22] Uh but it should be taken as a symptom
[39:25] of a fundamental situation and not as an
[39:27] isolated case.
[39:27] >> But Secretary Weinberger seemed to
[39:29] suggest it didn't make much difference
[39:30] whether this group, if the a group that
[39:33] did the bombing was a simply aligned
[39:35] with the Khomeini government in Iran or
[39:36] whether the orders came from Iran. And
[39:38] don't you think many Americans would
[39:40] believe that if Iran ordered this
[39:41] bombing, we ought to strike back?
[39:44] Uh I think if Iran ordered this I think
[39:47] we have to focus now on the situation in
[39:49] the Middle East.
[39:50] Well, what what is the answer to the
[39:51] question I posed?
[39:52] >> I wouldn't strike back at Iran. I would
[39:54] strike back in Lebanon.
[39:56] How?
[39:57] Well, I don't know enough of the
[39:58] situation uh to know
[40:01] which forces uh were responsible or
[40:04] which forces made it possible for those
[40:06] who uh who did it. There's a new trick
[40:08] that is being used that where somebody
[40:11] throws a boulder down a mountainside
[40:13] that's covered with rocks and when a
[40:14] rockslide starts, claims that the rock
[40:16] that killed the passenger by was not the
[40:18] Iraqi through. Uh
[40:20] I
[40:21] I would go to, I think, the fundamental
[40:25] sources of the trouble
[40:27] in Syria right now are the Soviet Union
[40:29] and
[40:29] uh
[40:30] in Lebanon are the Soviet Union, Syria,
[40:33] uh and the radical forces in Lebanon.
[40:36] And I think we will not get into a
[40:37] better negotiating position until the
[40:40] balance of forces is changed. Then,
[40:41] indeed, we should make very generous
[40:43] proposals. But generosity, you get
[40:46] credit for generosity only
[40:48] uh if you if it does not seem to appear
[40:50] come from weakness.
[40:53] Secretary Kissinger, thank you very
[40:54] much. We've enjoyed having you and
[40:56] hearing your views this morning.
[40:59] Coming next, Senator Mathias of Maryland
[41:02] of the Foreign Relations Committee and
[41:03] Senator Nunn of Georgia of the Armed
[41:06] Services Committee. In a moment. Trouble
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[42:30] Senator Mathias and Senator Nunn, thanks
[42:32] very much for coming in. Delighted to
[42:34] have you with us this morning.
[42:35] Tell me, Senator Mathias and then
[42:37] Senator Nunn,
[42:38] what should be our reaction to this
[42:40] horrible event this morning? Well, of
[42:42] course the visceral reaction is is
[42:45] outrage. It's It's uh shock.
[42:48] Uh
[42:49] but I think we have to guard ourselves
[42:51] against reacting with emotion. It's an
[42:54] irrational act, but it has to be
[42:55] responded to rationally. And I think we
[42:57] need to review where we are and and move
[43:00] out from there.
[43:02] Senator Nunn? Well, first I'm concerned
[43:04] about the fighting men who are left on
[43:06] the ground in Lebanon. We have to
[43:08] recognize that this unit has been
[43:10] decimated. They've lost uh probably
[43:12] their command functions. They've lost a
[43:14] great deal of their intelligence, their
[43:16] personnel capabilities. So, we have to
[43:19] augment that force with enough people to
[43:22] protect the Marines on the ground there.
[43:24] Now, that's number one. Second, I hope
[43:27] the administration will seriously review
[43:29] our policy in Lebanon. It would be my
[43:31] hope that we would ask the United
[43:33] Nations forces that are now in Lebanon
[43:35] to come in and to help the US and French
[43:38] forces in particular. And that
[43:40] eventually they would relieve our forces
[43:42] so that we can have more leverage in
[43:44] pursuing diplomatic goals. Our forces in
[43:47] Lebanon now, in my view, are not a
[43:49] deterrent. They are hostages.
[43:51] Senator Nunn, you say you want them
[43:53] perhaps the UN forces to help the US and
[43:55] French forces. Help them do what? Is it
[43:58] to keep the peace, establish the peace,
[44:01] patrol the streets as the British Army
[44:02] does in Ulster? What are What are they
[44:04] to do?
[44:04] >> I have in mind right now, George,
[44:06] protecting them. help establish a degree
[44:08] of a protection now that doesn't exist.
[44:11] As far as the mission of the US Marine
[44:12] forces in Lebanon, that's the long-term
[44:14] question. I don't know what that mission
[44:16] is.
[44:16] >> Have you ever known? No, I do not think
[44:18] this administration has ever defined the
[44:20] mission in a logical way, at least the
[44:22] military mission. I know what our
[44:23] diplomatic goals are, but to tie the
[44:25] Marine forces to our diplomatic goals is
[44:28] a mission impossible.
[44:29] >> Well, I It seems to me that we have
[44:31] known what the mission was. It was to be
[44:33] a presence. It was a symbolic presence.
[44:36] But I think with the events of the last
[44:38] 12 hours, that
[44:40] mission has
[44:41] evaporated, and that's why I say we have
[44:43] to start
[44:44] right from the bottom and work up.
[44:46] >> Well, should the president pull the
[44:47] Marines out?
[44:49] Not as an emotional reaction to this,
[44:51] Sam. I think
[44:52] that would be to reward the murderers,
[44:54] and but I think we do have to understand
[44:57] very clearly what our our goals in the
[44:59] Middle East are, and that is not at all
[45:01] clear at the moment.
[45:02] Uh
[45:03] Look at the the our relations with
[45:06] Syria. Syria controls more than half of
[45:09] Lebanon.
[45:10] We do not have anybody at the moment
[45:12] even talking to the Syrians. I have been
[45:14] urging the Secretary of State for the
[45:16] last month
[45:17] to send someone to talk to President
[45:19] Assad who can in effect speak his
[45:22] language, just as tough, just as smart,
[45:25] just as knowledgeable about the
[45:26] situation. We
[45:29] Syria is in effect the key to the Middle
[45:31] East, and we aren't trying to turn that
[45:33] key.
[45:33] >> But well, then can you imagine that
[45:34] Hafez al-Assad is going to agree to
[45:36] anything so long as it is all falling
[45:38] his way, as it seems to be now?
[45:40] >> Well, I think Secretary Kissinger had it
[45:42] just right a minute ago when he said
[45:43] that the negotiations will follow the
[45:46] balance of power.
[45:47] But we aren't even at the moment
[45:50] effectively communicating with President
[45:52] Assad, and I think that's been part of
[45:54] the problem over the last year. Senator
[45:56] Nunn, does the president really have a
[45:58] blank check in the 18-month uh,
[46:01] mandate that it gave him, or does this
[46:03] bombing today change the equation and
[46:05] would you expect him to come back to
[46:06] Congress? Well, I was opposed to the
[46:08] 18-month extension, not because of the
[46:10] number of months, but because there was
[46:12] no mission defined that made any sense
[46:14] whatsoever. I understand, but it's past.
[46:16] So, what is your position?
[46:17] >> All right, let's say this. The president
[46:19] has a very broad authority under that
[46:20] resolution, but that does not mean he
[46:22] has to use it unwisely. There's nothing
[46:25] in that resolution to prohibit him from
[46:26] beginning a prudent course in Lebanon.
[46:29] But you're saying and Senator Mathias,
[46:31] what's your view that he can really do
[46:32] what he wants now that he has that
[46:34] resolution?
[46:34] >> No, I don't think so, Sam. The
[46:36] resolution restricts his ability, for
[46:38] instance, to to escalate, to mushroom
[46:41] the size of the forces that are in
[46:43] Lebanon. I think that can only be the
[46:45] result of a of a coordinated decision
[46:48] with the Congress. Uh, one of the things
[46:50] Dr. Kissinger said was that the United
[46:52] States should act coordinating itself
[46:54] with other nations. Are there other
[46:56] nations besides the Israelis and the
[46:59] United States who have a sufficiently
[47:01] large interest in that area to want to
[47:03] get involved?
[47:04] Well, of course, the French are there
[47:06] now. The French suffered
[47:08] very serious casualties as we did last
[47:11] night.
[47:12] Uh, their interests in the area are
[47:15] historic and and deep-rooted. They may
[47:17] be willing to continue. I think it is
[47:19] going to be hard to to get people to
[47:21] really put up a sizable force and to be
[47:24] willing to accept losses.
[47:25] >> But Senator, you just in effect endorsed
[47:28] Mr. Kissinger's doctrine that
[47:30] negotiations must follow a change in the
[47:32] balance of power on the ground. How do
[47:34] we do that? With the Israeli army? With
[47:37] You just said Congress probably wouldn't
[47:39] put up with an increase of American
[47:40] power there.
[47:41] >> I didn't say the Congress wouldn't. I
[47:42] said the president shouldn't unless he
[47:44] did it with the coordinated uh, in a
[47:47] coordinated decision with the Congress.
[47:49] I think the Congress will want to know,
[47:51] as Sam has suggested, will want to know
[47:53] where we're going, why we're there, what
[47:54] our objectives are. If we can come to
[47:56] terms on that, then we can come to terms
[47:58] on how to reach our objective.
[48:00] >> Well, Dr. Kissinger really did define, I
[48:02] suppose, an objective, Senator Nunn, and
[48:04] it's to change the balance of power on
[48:05] the ground. Would you favor using US and
[48:07] Israeli forces to do that? I think the
[48:09] only forces, to answer your first
[48:11] question, that could possibly bring that
[48:13] degree of power to bear in a short time,
[48:15] and the only forces that might be
[48:17] willing, and I underscore might, would
[48:18] be the Israeli forces.
[48:20] The Israeli forces have already
[48:21] withdrawn substantial substantially from
[48:24] their previous forward positions. I
[48:26] think it's unlikely they would be
[48:27] willing to do that. But, if the Israelis
[48:29] are not willing to take on the Syrians,
[48:31] then it seems to me the United States,
[48:32] if acting alone, would have to make a
[48:34] massive commitment. And right now, we're
[48:36] spread spread thin all over the world.
[48:38] We've got problems in six or eight other
[48:40] places. I think that would be an unwise
[48:42] choice. And the balance of power is
[48:44] further shifting, and it's getting away
[48:46] from us day by day. The SS-21s, we now
[48:49] believe, may be deployed in the area.
[48:52] And these are the kinds of developments
[48:55] we have to watch.
[48:56] >> Very quickly, obviously, the security
[48:57] wasn't sufficient. But, was this simply
[48:59] because of an act of God, as Secretary
[49:01] of Weinberger suggested that nothing
[49:03] could be done about it? Or do you
[49:04] question, either one of you, why that
[49:06] security wasn't better? I question it
[49:08] because we've had a lot of that kind of
[49:10] problem already in Lebanon. It seems to
[49:11] me that should have been anticipated.
[49:13] We'll have to get all the facts before I
[49:14] can make judgments. It's the pattern is
[49:16] too close to the embassy bombing to
[49:18] understand why it was allowed to happen
[49:20] twice. Thank you very much. Senator
[49:22] Mathias, Senator Nunn, thanks for coming
[49:24] and talking with us. It's been a
[49:25] pleasure to have you with us.
[49:28] We'll be back with a little discussion
[49:29] of today's sad, horrifying news, and
[49:33] joining us will be commentator Hodding
[49:35] Carter.
[49:36] In a moment.
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[51:48] We've heard a variety of viewpoints,
[51:50] opinions expressed here this morning
[51:52] about our options, our reactions, what
[51:55] they should be and what they are
[51:57] in Lebanon.
[51:59] One we've all heard was uh
[52:02] Secretary Kissinger's, former Secretary
[52:04] Kissinger, who believes that the balance
[52:06] of power on our side has to be
[52:08] increased.
[52:10] Um
[52:11] who was it who said the French, Mr. uh
[52:13] Senator Mathias, the French are
[52:14] involved.
[52:15] So, I'm going to do something unusual
[52:17] with your permission. Pierre Salinger of
[52:19] ABC is standing by in Paris. I'd like to
[52:21] invite him to join with us and ask,
[52:24] Pierre, could you hear me?
[52:26] I hear you, David. Fine. Would the
[52:27] French, in your judgment, be willing to
[52:29] take on some kind of increased
[52:31] commitment in in Lebanon along with,
[52:33] say, along with the United States and
[52:35] Israel?
[52:36] I think the President Mitterrand is
[52:38] going to be under the same pressure as
[52:39] President Reagan
[52:41] uh after the events of today. There were
[52:43] already attacks against the French for
[52:45] uh in in the French uh
[52:47] population for being in Lebanon in the
[52:49] first place. The French had suffered the
[52:51] greatest losses up to today, 16 dead. Uh
[52:55] and that criticism was mounting in
[52:56] France. So, I think it'll be very
[52:58] difficult for President Mitterrand to
[52:59] increase the French forces. And the
[53:01] answers of some of his ministers today
[53:03] are very ambiguous. For example, the
[53:05] Minister of Foreign Affairs said, "Uh
[53:07] we're not going to be run out of Lebanon
[53:08] by violence." But in the same sense, he
[53:10] said, "We have to assess whether our
[53:12] presence is really necessary anymore."
[53:14] Pierre, that's not very different from
[53:16] what we're hearing here. What what what
[53:17] should we do, hiding? What should we do?
[53:19] Pull out? I think that first I have to
[53:21] admit that I thought we ought to be
[53:23] there. So, what I'm getting ready to say
[53:24] is based on that long-time position.
[53:27] From everything that's been said this
[53:28] morning and everything anybody else has
[53:30] suggested, two things are clear. The
[53:32] first is we have no idea about what a
[53:35] mission should be the forces we have
[53:36] there, unless you take Secretary
[53:39] Kissinger's implicit idea that we ought
[53:42] to engage in a wider war directed at the
[53:45] Syrians. I can't accept that and
[53:47] therefore I can only believe that what
[53:49] we have to do is pull those people out
[53:51] until we have a better idea of what we
[53:52] should do with them in a more defensible
[53:54] position.
[53:54] >> David you really put it in an
[53:55] interesting way. You said if all they're
[53:57] there to do is defend themselves they
[53:58] could do that in North Carolina. Well,
[54:00] we should do two things in this order.
[54:02] First put up steel barriers so no pickup
[54:04] trucks get anywhere near headquarters or
[54:07] barracks where Marines are sleeping.
[54:09] They did it in Vietnam, they can do it
[54:10] there. And in light of the embassy
[54:12] bombing I think it is inexcusable that a
[54:14] pickup truck could go right into the
[54:16] middle of this building and blow it up.
[54:17] And secondly, the president is going to
[54:19] have to withdraw the Marines perhaps
[54:21] just to the ships off the shore and I
[54:23] think Secretary Weinberger was making
[54:24] that case rather eloquently because as
[54:27] we all have said, without a mission it
[54:29] is ridiculous to have them there. And I
[54:31] think it's a little late in the day to
[54:32] start looking to the Israeli army. The
[54:34] Israeli army I believe has suffered
[54:35] about 520 casualties
[54:38] in what? 15 months there? Something like
[54:40] that.
[54:40] >> Every casualty afflicts Israeli society
[54:43] in a way that it's hard for Americans to
[54:45] understand. Second, the Israeli 3
[54:47] million. Well, you can multiply by 70 to
[54:49] get for every casualty to get ratio of
[54:52] the American population. Second, the
[54:54] Israeli economy today is in a crisis of
[54:57] of a dimension that we've not
[54:58] experienced in this country. So, the the
[55:01] idea of a joint US Israeli
[55:04] operation even if you could solve and I
[55:06] doubt that you could solve the political
[55:08] and logistic and other problems the
[55:10] logistic problems that Sam Nunn
[55:11] mentioned. Sam Nunn is as knowledgeable
[55:13] as anyone in America on our our defense
[55:15] capabilities and he says we're stretched
[55:17] thin around the world. That's a very
[55:18] sobering
[55:19] >> George, if I may say Sam said our troops
[55:21] are there as hostages. If I may say
[55:23] gently, what happened this morning is an
[55:25] outgrowth of the Israeli invasion of
[55:27] Lebanon last year. The Israelis didn't
[55:29] do it or cause it, but it is an
[55:30] outgrowth of a policy which has gotten
[55:32] them into a quagmire and now has gotten
[55:34] a lot of our people killed.
[55:35] >> But lest uh we really can't let that
[55:38] imply that that Syria was paradise until
[55:40] the Israelis went in. There's been a
[55:42] raging civil war killing a great many
[55:44] people for 10 years. Sorry, Lebanon.
[55:46] Yes.
[55:47] Well, you know, there's
[55:47] >> I've
[55:50] >> talking earlier and thinking right now
[55:53] what you have to face about the Marine
[55:54] forces on the ground right now
[55:56] is that it has been decimated in ways
[55:58] that literally decimated in the literal
[56:01] sense of the word decimated, but beyond
[56:03] that in its command and control
[56:04] functions as well. Pete
[56:06] You finished? I want to give Pierre in
[56:08] Paris the last word. Pierre, we haven't
[56:10] heard from you in a while.
[56:12] Yeah. Well, I agree with what's been
[56:13] said around the table. Uh I think that
[56:16] uh probably what we're going to see from
[56:18] the French viewpoint is probably a very
[56:20] cautious withdrawal of French forces
[56:23] uh in the weeks ahead
[56:25] uh because I think that they also feel
[56:27] that they have no real mission
[56:29] uh in Lebanon today, that they have no
[56:31] real objective and that their soldiers
[56:33] are like a lot of Americans feel
[56:35] hostages of a situation over which they
[56:37] have no control. Thank you, Pierre.
[56:39] Thanks, everybody.
[56:40] We'll be back in a moment.
[56:45] There are two ways to buy insurance.
[56:47] From a one company agent, but he's
[56:49] locked into only those policies that his
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[57:11] Remember this symbol. It's in the yellow
[57:13] pages.
[57:20] In the past, this land grew rich
[57:22] abundant crops. [music]
[57:24] Today, it's a different story.
[57:27] Slowly but surely, soil erosion is
[57:30] destroying [music] it and we're
[57:32] concerned.
[57:33] You should be, too.
[57:35] Because if we don't do something to stop
[57:37] it,
[57:38] the only [music] thing this land will
[57:39] grow in the future
[57:41] is worse.
[57:47] The news from Lebanon continues to be
[57:48] bad. In fact, it is now worse.
[57:50] We have just had the second bulletin
[57:52] from the Pentagon that the loss of life
[57:55] now stands at 135
[57:58] US Marines.
[58:00] The French, we don't have an
[58:01] up-to-the-minute figure, but the last we
[58:03] heard was somewhere in the neighborhood
[58:04] of 80.
[58:05] So, it has been the worst um punishment
[58:08] inflicted on the American armed forces
[58:11] since the Vietnam War.
[58:13] And we will stay on top of it throughout
[58:16] the afternoon here and on our regular
[58:18] news program tonight.
[58:20] Keep you up-to-date. That's at 10:00
[58:22] Eastern time.
[58:23] For all of us at ABC's This Week, until
[58:26] next Sunday, [music]
[58:27] thank you.
[58:30] This Week with David Brinkley brought to
[58:32] you by Archer Daniels Midland Company.
[58:37] This Week with David Brinkley [music] is
[58:38] a presentation of ABC News.
[58:43] Sunday, Hardcastle and McCormick are the
[58:45] main event. Watch this, Jack.
[58:47] See that? See how close it was? You
[58:47] didn't even see it. As they take on the
[58:49] mob.
[58:50] >> What are you trying to do? Kill me?
[58:51] Hardcastle and McCormick. Then, the game
[58:53] of the season, the Raiders and the
[58:55] Cowboys. An NFL special, all starting at
[58:57] 8:07 Central.
[59:00] Tonight on ABC.
[59:05] See a salute to Larry Gatlin, today at
[59:07] 5:00.
[59:12] >> [music]
[60:47] >> Yeah.