Nightline (ABC) - 1999-07-28
Channel: malgent
Transcript
Language: English (original, YouTube automatic captions)
[0:01] July 28th, 1999.
[0:08] >> Even in a city accustomed to protests,
[0:10] members of the Chinese Fallon movement
[0:13] stand out.
[0:17] >> The Chinese government fears them and
[0:19] has jailed quite a few of them precisely
[0:22] because there are so many of them,
[0:25] millions of followers of this man.
[0:29] who preaches a spiritual message of
[0:32] healing and fitness.
[0:34] >> People feel frustrated so they look for
[0:36] answers elsewhere um apart from what the
[0:39] party and the government uh have to
[0:41] offer. I believe that this organization
[0:44] could be a serious threat um to the the
[0:48] rulership of the Communist Party in
[0:50] China. And um I think that they see this
[0:53] as a fight for the minds and souls and
[0:56] hearts of of of people in China.
[0:58] >> Tonight, the Fallon Gong. How great a
[1:02] threat to the communists grip on China.
[1:10] From ABC News,
[1:15] this is Night Line.
[1:18] Reporting from Washington, Ted CPell.
[1:23] >> Here's the problem. The Chinese
[1:25] government does not have a very good
[1:27] reputation for openness, nor to be
[1:29] blunt, do they deserve one. They are
[1:32] secretive, sometimes to the point of
[1:34] paranoia, and they tend to be repressive
[1:36] in the face of even the slightest
[1:38] dissent. So when we in this country hear
[1:41] stories of the Chinese government
[1:42] cracking down on what is consistently
[1:45] being described as a perfectly harmless
[1:47] movement that has its roots in Buddhism,
[1:51] believes in meditation, deep breathing,
[1:53] stylized exercise, we tend to take that
[1:56] at face value. That is after all just
[1:58] the sort of reaction we would expect
[2:00] from the Chinese government. Only as
[2:03] Henry Kissinger once famously observed,
[2:05] even paranoids have enemies. And this
[2:08] time the Chinese government may in fact
[2:10] have something legitimate to be worried
[2:12] about numbers. For one, the Fallon Gong
[2:16] movement, and you'll be hearing a lot
[2:17] more about them in a moment, apparently
[2:20] does number in the millions. Its
[2:21] membership is almost by definition less
[2:24] than content with the way things are in
[2:27] China these days. Similar movements in
[2:29] the past, even those that had no
[2:31] political motives to begin with,
[2:33] developed and then became real threats
[2:36] to the existing authorities at the time.
[2:39] And if some of the things that fallen
[2:41] gang followers are said to believe is
[2:44] what they really believe, then they are
[2:46] not all dealing from a full deck either.
[2:48] So keep an open mind as we begin our
[2:50] broadcast tonight with this report from
[2:53] ABC's Jim Williams in Beijing.
[3:02] In the mornings, I get up to go to
[3:03] practice side and do my movement
[3:07] then come back to the office and the
[3:09] work and uh and you know that's that's
[3:11] my day
[3:14] actually. It changed me a lot.
[3:16] >> They are quiet and appear peaceful. Yet
[3:19] one of the world's superpowers sees them
[3:21] as threatening.
[3:23] And now in China, when members of
[3:25] Fallong goon meditate and exercise, they
[3:28] cannot do so in public. For nearly two
[3:31] weeks, China's government has been
[3:32] rounding up thousands of Fallon members,
[3:35] a group that could have as many as 60
[3:37] million followers here. The government
[3:40] confiscated and destroyed their books
[3:42] and tapes and called them an evil and
[3:44] dangerous cult. Since last week, Fallong
[3:47] has been officially outlawed. Master
[3:49] Lee's teaching is asking people to be
[3:51] you know and nice person good person do
[3:54] good deeds you know we never strictly
[3:57] not involved in any politics you know or
[4:00] state affairs so I don't see why there's
[4:04] a reason for them so scared
[4:07] >> fallong was started just 7 years ago by
[4:10] a former Chinese soldier and trumpet
[4:12] player
[4:14] >> 48-year-old Lee Hunger borrowed from
[4:16] Buddhism and Taoism but he has also been
[4:19] quoted as saying extraterrestrial beings
[4:22] control men. Some of his followers say
[4:24] he can harness cosmic forces to cure
[4:27] cancer and heal the blind. In more
[4:30] recent interviews, Lee, who lives in New
[4:32] York City, has made no such claims.
[4:36] I am only teaching people to practice
[4:38] for healing and fitness, Lee says, to be
[4:40] more noble people. So, it cannot really
[4:43] be called an evil religion. In China,
[4:46] Lee has found many eager followers. The
[4:49] country's changing economy has created
[4:51] great wealth for some, but left many
[4:54] others behind. The communist government
[4:57] can no longer claim to take care of all
[4:59] its people. Thousands of government
[5:02] factories have closed. Many workers are
[5:04] now without jobs, health benefits, or
[5:07] even pensions. They've lost hope that
[5:09] the government can improve their lives.
[5:11] So, they're looking elsewhere. Many of
[5:14] the displaced have turned to Lee Honggh.
[5:17] >> He says that the world is in a terrible
[5:18] situation and it's close to catastrophe.
[5:21] It's about to collapse and the only way
[5:23] that you can prevent that from happening
[5:25] is to follow his ideology, to follow his
[5:28] beliefs and to in many ways rally around
[5:30] him.
[5:31] >> Lee claims to have no interest in
[5:33] politics, but his followers have staged
[5:36] demonstrations throughout China seeking
[5:38] official recognition from the
[5:40] government. They have an incredible
[5:42] power of mobilization. This man has
[5:45] proved that through email, through
[5:47] internet from outside of China, he can
[5:50] put 10,000 people outside Jung Nanghai
[5:53] without the Chinese government knowing
[5:55] anything about it.
[5:57] >> That silent protest in April outside the
[6:00] compound where China's leaders live and
[6:02] work alarmed President Jean Zamin. And
[6:05] therefore um Jaoin fears that if he
[6:07] doesn't take drastic action now there's
[6:09] a possibility that after a few years the
[6:11] fallenong uh will become really very
[6:14] powerful.
[6:15] >> China's leaders were shocked to learn
[6:16] that fallong's membership was so large
[6:19] and so diverse. It not only included the
[6:22] poor and the unemployed but
[6:24] professionals and to the government's
[6:26] horror communist party officials.
[6:29] Altogether thousands were detained. so
[6:32] many they had to be held in stadiums.
[6:35] Authorities are threatening to charge
[6:37] the group's leaders with trying to
[6:39] overthrow the government.
[6:41] >> China has justified its crackdown,
[6:43] charging the group has brainwashed its
[6:46] followers. State-run television has
[6:48] shown people describing how Fong ruined
[6:51] their lives. This man said his wife was
[6:54] so obsessed with the group's prediction
[6:55] that the world would end, she killed
[6:57] their child and herself.
[7:01] The government's actions have outraged
[7:03] human rights groups. For them, it is a
[7:06] reminder of the Tianaan Square crackdown
[7:08] 10 years ago. Daiqing spent 10 months in
[7:11] jail for sympathizing with the
[7:13] protesters.
[7:16] This is the third generation of this
[7:18] government. She says they should have
[7:20] new ways to handle problems. Instead,
[7:23] they are using the same old tactics they
[7:25] used in the 1950s and60s to deal with
[7:28] peaceful demonstrations. During the last
[7:31] century, the Taiping and Boxer
[7:33] rebellions, which grew out of cults,
[7:35] nearly toppled theQing dynasty. Today's
[7:37] Chinese leaders, ever mindful of their
[7:40] history, take Fong very seriously.
[7:44] >> We need to look at this and see to what
[7:46] extent the Communist Party sees this as
[7:48] a major threat to its legitimacy and to
[7:51] its rule. And if it can't control this
[7:54] organization, then it could then the
[7:55] whole country could be in real trouble.
[7:57] And yet by banning fangong, China could
[8:00] be creating an opposition movement that
[8:02] might become increasingly resentful and
[8:04] hostile.
[8:05] >> In spite of the drastic measures being
[8:07] taken, um this will be a long drawn out
[8:10] um tug of war between uh the authorities
[8:13] and the fallen gong followers. Um which
[8:16] may give rise to um a series of social
[8:19] unrest.
[8:21] >> This was once a familiar site all over
[8:23] China. Now the country's fastest growing
[8:26] spiritual movement has for the moment
[8:29] been driven underground for Night Line.
[8:32] This is Jim Williams in Beijing.
[8:36] Later we'll be joined by an official of
[8:38] the Chinese government. But when we come
[8:40] back, a conversation I recorded earlier
[8:42] this evening with a spokesman for the
[8:44] founder of Fallon Gong.
[8:49] This is ABC News Night Line brought to
[8:52] you by Toyota.
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[10:51] >> Bobby, breakfast.
[10:53] >> Hey, wake up. Wake up. You sleepy.
[10:56] >> Bobby, breakfast.
[10:58] >> Get up. Get up. Get out of bed.
[11:03] >> For breakfast,
[11:04] >> cheer up. Cheer up. The sun is red.
[11:07] >> Oh, mom.
[11:08] >> Love, laugh, and be happy.
[11:10] >> New Lunchables, pancakes, or waffles. No
[11:13] need to heat them. Just get up and eat
[11:15] them.
[11:15] >> Thanks, Mom.
[11:16] >> Be happy.
[11:17] >> Lunchables. Make fun of lunch and
[11:19] breakfast.
[11:24] And joining us now from our New York
[11:26] bureau, Arping Jang, who serves as an
[11:28] interpreter and spokesman for Master
[11:30] Lee, the founder of Fulangong. Um, I
[11:34] must tell you, I am a little bit
[11:35] confused and maybe I'm trapped between
[11:38] some of the propaganda that the Chinese
[11:39] government has been putting out and
[11:41] reality. So, help me with reality here.
[11:44] Do you all believe those of you who are
[11:47] who are practitioners of fallong that
[11:51] medical care traditional medical care be
[11:53] it Chinese or western is not necessary?
[11:57] Uh we never say that that hospitals
[12:00] cannot heal illnesses. The Chinese
[12:02] government fabricate stories in the
[12:04] videape to viciously viciously slander
[12:07] mass lee the founder of fallenong and
[12:10] fallong all together. They accuse us
[12:12] saying that we cannot we don't allow
[12:15] people to go to hospital when they get
[12:17] ill. That's
[12:18] >> I'm not sure. No, I'm not sure I'm
[12:19] saying uh that that Fong doesn't allow
[12:22] people to go to hospitals, but I have
[12:24] heard English-speaking Chinese in this
[12:26] country who are practitioners who say
[12:28] it's not necessary. Do you believe that?
[12:30] >> Uh personally, I think uh uh I had
[12:33] chronic problem with my body. I had
[12:36] problems with my kidney and liver and
[12:39] stomach through practice all those uh
[12:42] syndromes disappeared. So uh uh I
[12:45] practice every day and it's been greatly
[12:47] effective for me. So I don't feel a need
[12:50] to try medications that I tried before
[12:53] which did not work. If if uh for example
[12:56] you started spitting out blood or if you
[12:58] broke a leg or if you had reason to
[13:00] believe that you might have cancer uh
[13:02] you wouldn't go to a doctor, you
[13:04] wouldn't go to a hospital. I think
[13:05] people should have the right to do
[13:07] whatever they want.
[13:08] >> I I'm asking you what you would do if
[13:10] you had that problem. I I realize it's a
[13:12] hypothetical question, but give me an
[13:14] answer anyway.
[13:15] >> Uh I just don't think those situation
[13:17] arrive. You know, I would let you know
[13:18] when they arise. They arise in
[13:19] everybody's life sooner or later. And
[13:21] >> when they come, I I'll know what to do.
[13:23] Very nice.
[13:23] >> When they come in the context of your
[13:26] movement, in the context of what you
[13:28] believe, what will you do?
[13:30] >> Uh right now, I don't think this
[13:31] situation will come. They are very
[13:33] hypothetical and I think we should doubt
[13:35] on the current situation in China.
[13:38] >> Well, I'll tell you what, allow me to
[13:39] ask the questions and then you try to
[13:41] give the answers. Okay.
[13:42] >> I must tell you one of the things that
[13:44] that makes your movement seem a little
[13:46] strange
[13:47] >> is that you and other spokesman for the
[13:49] movement won't answer what seems like a
[13:50] perfectly reasonable question. If you
[13:52] are sick, would you go to a doctor?
[13:54] Would you go to a hospital? And you tell
[13:56] me you're not sick. I get that. But but
[13:58] see if you can be a little more
[13:59] forthcoming. uh I think if I have a
[14:03] through the practice I've been feeling
[14:04] very normal I have never get any uh uh
[14:07] illness syndrome so I don't see a need
[14:10] to do it personally individually they
[14:12] can seek any medical help they want to
[14:15] if they uh even though they practice
[14:17] fallen gong and that's the individual
[14:19] individual choice
[14:20] >> very good are you a movement do you
[14:23] represent a body of people or are you
[14:27] just however large your group is
[14:29] hundreds of thousands thousands or even
[14:31] a few million individuals who practice
[14:35] your beliefs individually.
[14:38] >> Uh actually like Tai Chi or like Sholin
[14:41] Kung Fu you know those fingong is one of
[14:44] the chigong practice that has been
[14:46] traditionally uh passed on from
[14:48] generation to generations and in China
[14:52] everybody knows that in the parks people
[14:54] do morning exercise and fallong is one
[14:57] of the most popular practice in the
[14:59] parks. You are you are extremely
[15:00] skillful at avoiding questions. I I
[15:03] asked you a direct question. Uh are you
[15:05] a group? Are you a movement or are you
[15:08] simply individual practitioners who have
[15:12] whatever skills you have acquired over
[15:14] the year in common but nothing else?
[15:16] >> Uh actually it's a it's a popular uh
[15:19] exercise participate by many people.
[15:22] It's not a movement because we don't
[15:24] have any political agenda.
[15:26] >> Mr. Let me let me ask you as you know
[15:28] there are also hundreds of thousands
[15:31] probably millions of people in China who
[15:33] practice taichi another form of exercise
[15:37] uh concentration
[15:39] >> uh the Chinese government is not
[15:40] cracking down on those people. Why not?
[15:42] uh is very obvious because the
[15:44] fallingong practice is the most popular
[15:46] one in China because of its healing
[15:48] effect effectiveness and also because in
[15:52] falling we ask people to be good
[15:55] citizens to be people of high moral
[15:57] standards uh and to follow the
[16:00] principles of truth, compassion and
[16:02] tolerance. What do you think it is that
[16:04] really scares the Chinese government? I
[16:06] mean everything you've said sounds so
[16:08] positively benign. I would expect the
[16:10] Chinese government to embrace you and
[16:12] give you all a little award. Uh there
[16:14] must be something that scares them. What
[16:16] is it?
[16:17] >> I think the sheer number of the people
[16:19] that is who practice falling is so big
[16:22] they become so nervous because if
[16:25] everyone embrace traditional values
[16:28] instead of that of the communist
[16:30] ideology they will be very nervous. Also
[16:34] I would like to add Tad tens of thousand
[16:36] people's life are on the line. Thousands
[16:39] of people are being round up in stadiums
[16:42] without food, without drink, without
[16:45] access to toilets for several days. I'm
[16:48] calling for the international
[16:50] communities including United States
[16:52] government and other governments to step
[16:55] in to urge Chinese government to stop
[16:57] its inhumane treatment of these people.
[17:01] and uh we should solve this problem
[17:04] through the means of dialogue instead of
[17:06] using force against people against the
[17:09] will of the people.
[17:10] >> On that note, let me thank you for
[17:12] coming in this evening. I appreciate you
[17:13] being here. We will continue with the
[17:16] question of why the Chinese government
[17:17] is so concerned about falling gong when
[17:20] we ask an official of the Chinese
[17:21] embassy in a moment.
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[18:58] >> Coming up, Katie Sagal, Chad Thompson,
[19:01] the Ulle's John Henton, director Renie
[19:03] Harland, and of course, Bill.
[19:04] >> Thank you very much, ladies and
[19:06] gentlemen.
[19:06] >> Politically incorrect with Bill Maher.
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[20:12] >> And with us here in our Washington
[20:14] studios, Liu Yaoing, the number two
[20:16] official at the Chinese embassy here in
[20:18] Washington. Based on what we heard from
[20:21] Mr. Jang, they may have some rather
[20:23] bizarre medical practices and beliefs,
[20:27] but I find it hard to understand what it
[20:30] is about this group or this movement um
[20:34] that is so distressing or alarming to
[20:37] the Chinese government. Can you explain
[20:38] it?
[20:39] >> Of course. Uh first, this is illegal
[20:42] organizations
[20:43] >> because
[20:44] >> with no official legal registration
[20:47] status.
[20:48] >> Why does it need it? uh you know in
[20:50] China I believe also in this country
[20:53] when you want to set up organization you
[20:56] have to go through a normal procedures
[20:58] for registration
[20:59] >> but you heard what Mr. Jang said he says
[21:01] there is no organization anymore than
[21:03] people who practice Tai Chi have an
[21:04] organization.
[21:05] >> Well, I think what he said is completely
[21:08] lies. I would say in fact this leader of
[21:12] Fallenong Lihungju set up a 39 what they
[21:16] call it practicing
[21:18] uh center and under this 39 practicing
[21:22] center there are about 1,900
[21:26] practicing station
[21:27] >> and what what would what would happen
[21:29] there? Forgive me for interrupting you,
[21:30] but you and I have limited time and I I
[21:33] want to get to the the nub of it.
[21:35] >> If in fact what they do is practice deep
[21:37] breathing exercises there or even
[21:39] martial arts uh or even some sort of
[21:42] psychic energy that permits them not to
[21:44] have to go to the hospital or seek
[21:46] medical care again, what is so
[21:48] threatening to the Chinese government?
[21:50] >> Uh if they are really doing what they
[21:52] claim to be uh benign, I think there
[21:55] should be no problem at all. In fact,
[21:57] the Chinese government uh you know have
[22:00] no intention to ban the chiong the
[22:02] breathing exercise which is a long
[22:05] tradition uh in China. But what this
[22:08] organization is doing is to engage in
[22:11] illegal activities like they harass and
[22:15] besiege the government agencies, the
[22:18] media units, whoever disagree with their
[22:21] thinking. You know in fact the first
[22:23] incident occurred when there's a
[22:25] scientist who wrote article in published
[22:27] in the university newspaper and saying
[22:29] criticizing this fallong is
[22:32] anti-scientific spreading superstitions
[22:35] then the organizers mobilized the
[22:38] practitioners siege university for 3
[22:42] days and then they went to Beijing you
[22:45] know to siege junah the seat of the
[22:47] government agencies
[22:49] >> let's let's talk about that for a moment
[22:51] when you They put them under siege. As I
[22:54] understand it, 10,000 people came out
[22:56] there and basically sat there and stood
[22:59] there and did their deep breathing
[23:01] exercises and did nothing more. If the
[23:03] Chinese government feels threatened by
[23:05] that kind of activity, I wonder what it
[23:07] would feel if there were real violent
[23:09] political protest. uh in fact uh they
[23:12] are not only doing that they have
[23:15] mobilized so-called demonstrations
[23:18] throughout the country in all 30 cities
[23:21] they are interrupting traffic
[23:23] interrupting block the traffic
[23:25] interrupting social order Mr. Well, you
[23:28] what what I always find a little
[23:30] difficult when I'm talking to a
[23:31] representative of the Chinese government
[23:33] is that charges like this are made,
[23:35] assertions are made. You are never
[23:39] willing to let us look deeply into these
[23:41] stories or willing to take us to the
[23:43] places where one could confirm on our
[23:47] own that these charges are true. I I
[23:49] mean, so far all I hear is a lot of
[23:51] words being bandied back and forth, and
[23:53] I must confess, I don't know whom to
[23:54] believe.
[23:55] >> In fact, there's a lot of investigations
[23:57] going on. There's a lot of facts has
[23:59] been you know given to uh foreign media
[24:02] or domestic media. I can give you many
[24:04] examples. Many of them have their names.
[24:07] >> No no my my my point precisely. I I'm
[24:09] not interested in receiving it from you.
[24:11] I'm interested in having our own
[24:13] correspondents go out and find it for
[24:14] themselves. Could we do that?
[24:16] >> Of course. I think you know many of your
[24:18] journalists have a wide access uh to a a
[24:21] lot of uh you know organizations and
[24:24] institutions. So if they give us the
[24:27] names of locations where people are
[24:29] being held and we came to the Chinese
[24:31] government and said can we visit those
[24:32] locations no problem right?
[24:34] >> Uh we I have no information about the
[24:37] location of the stadium.
[24:38] >> No I understand
[24:41] if we come to you with the location
[24:43] >> we'll look into it. We certainly will
[24:44] look into it.
[24:45] >> No I mean can we look into it
[24:47] >> the stadium?
[24:48] >> Yes. I'm not in a position to tell
[24:50] because I do not know whether this from
[24:53] what I heard this is totally lies and
[24:56] rumors and we can let you know after our
[25:00] investigations.
[25:01] >> Right. Um
[25:03] I guess that's I guess that's where
[25:05] we're going to have to leave it for the
[25:07] evening. Just one last question to you.
[25:09] He the representative of Fong Gong
[25:11] wanted very much to be able to debate
[25:13] you directly. You didn't want to do
[25:14] that. Why? uh because uh he we do not
[25:17] recognize his organization is illegal
[25:20] organizations is outlawed by the Chinese
[25:22] government. We do not recognize their
[25:25] status whatever.
[25:26] >> Mr. Leu, it's very good of you to come
[25:28] in and I thank you for being with us.
[25:30] >> Thank you very much, Dad.
[25:32] >> I'll be back in 2 minutes and 35 seconds
[25:35] with a word or two about time.
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[28:18] >> We're about out of time for this
[28:20] evening. We have just enough left to
[28:22] tell you about the first of eight night
[28:24] lines in prime time beginning tomorrow,
[28:26] reported by ABC's Robert Kritch. Why, if
[28:30] we have faster and faster and faster
[28:33] machines, do we feel we're running out
[28:35] of time?
[28:36] >> The trouble is we're we're addicts to
[28:38] time.
[28:38] >> Time. 1 second is cool.
[28:40] >> 2 seconds is a lot.
[28:42] >> 3 seconds is too long.
[28:44] >> Why is it that even these people find it
[28:47] hard to slow down? Then how do we
[28:49] account for the suspicious success of
[28:52] cell phones?
[28:55] >> If we are wired for speed, what are we
[28:57] leaving behind?
[29:00] Lots of questions. Night Line in prime
[29:02] time. Brave New World for eight
[29:04] Thursdays beginning tomorrow night at 10
[29:07] Eastern time. And that's our report for
[29:09] tonight. I'm Ted CPP in Washington. For
[29:11] all of us here at ABC News, good.
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[30:04] >> Ladies and gentlemen, the star of
[30:06] Politically Incorrect, Bill Mars.
[30:13] Bill's guest tonight, Kitty Cal.
[30:17] You see director Ry Harland,
[30:20] John Hinton,
[30:23] and Jack Thompson.
[30:28] Thank you so much. Thank you once again.
[30:31] Indoor.