Nightline (ABC) - 1992-03-06

Channel: malgent

Transcript

Language: English (YouTube automatic captions)

[0:00] Oh my. [music]

[0:02] You just wasted some of my precious

[0:04] time.

[0:06] But don't think twice. It's all right.

[0:12] >> Arlo appeared at the Rosland Theater

[0:14] tonight. And that's tonight's

[0:16] entertainment report. That looked great.

[0:18] Oh, Woody Guthrie, his dad wrote some

[0:20] great songs about the Columbia River

[0:21] there.

[0:22] >> Yeah. Bon. That's our news everyone from

[0:24] all of us here at Channel 2. Have a

[0:26] great weekend and take care.

[0:32] >> [music]

[0:40] >> This is the saddest day of my life.

[0:43] >> The sex scandal that shattered a 30-year

[0:46] long political career. Senator Brock

[0:48] Adams dropped his bid for reelection

[0:51] after anonymous allegations of rape and

[0:53] sexual harassment. Is Adams being

[0:56] railroaded unfairly?

[0:58] Sex and Capitol Hill, the new rules of

[1:01] the game.

[1:02] >> Powerful people need to be held

[1:04] accountable. They need to be held

[1:05] accountable in general by all of us, but

[1:07] they need to be held accountable by the

[1:09] people closest to them as well.

[1:18] This is ABC News Night Line.

[1:20] Substituting for Ted Cppel and reporting

[1:22] from New York, Barbara Walters.

[1:26] It has become an all too familiar story.

[1:29] A respected political figure battling

[1:31] allegations of sexual misconduct that

[1:34] could wreck his career. In the last

[1:36] year, we've seen Clarence Thomas and

[1:38] Bill Clinton faced with charges that

[1:40] could have ruined them. And this past

[1:42] Sunday, Senator Brock Adams of

[1:44] Washington State announced he would not

[1:46] run for reelection after allegations

[1:49] that he sexually harassed eight women

[1:51] and raped one of them. What is different

[1:54] this time is the way the charges became

[1:56] public. The Seattle Times published

[1:59] allegations by the eight women, all of

[2:01] whom chose to remain anonymous. In the

[2:04] past, for charges of sexual impropriy to

[2:06] be taken seriously, the woman would have

[2:08] to come forward, for example, Anita Hill

[2:11] or Jennifer Flowers. Sexual misconduct

[2:14] is an area in which there have always

[2:16] been shades of gray, perhaps more so

[2:18] with the widely publicized cases of the

[2:21] last few months. And the reverberations

[2:23] of Brock Adams case were felt strongly

[2:25] in his hometown of Seattle, where just

[2:28] three weeks ago his political future

[2:30] seemed so bright.

[2:32] Today in this hall, at this place, at

[2:35] this time with you,

[2:38] I'm announcing my candidacy for the

[2:40] second term of the United States Senate.

[2:46] Brock Adams is a longtime politician in

[2:48] Washington State. He's been in public

[2:50] life for more than 30 years here. Uh,

[2:52] first as a congressman, later as

[2:54] Secretary of Transportation for Jimmy

[2:55] Carter, and most recently as a United

[2:58] States senator. We had just released a

[3:00] poll on Wednesday of last week showing

[3:02] that Brock Adams was going to beat all

[3:05] comers. And so we were feeling very good

[3:08] about uh the chances of reelecting him

[3:11] to the United States Senate.

[3:14] >> Now live at 11:00 KO News 4.

[3:20] >> New allegations tonight against Senator

[3:22] Brock Adams, including sexual

[3:23] harassment, abuse, and even rape. The

[3:26] allegations are detailed in tomorrow

[3:28] morning's edition of the Seattle Times.

[3:29] We obtained this early copy. According

[3:32] to the Seattle Times, eight women have

[3:34] come forward claiming sexual misconduct

[3:36] by Adams.

[3:38] >> All of this began about three and a half

[3:40] years ago when it became known that a

[3:42] campaign worker named Carrie Ter had

[3:44] accused the senator of drugging and

[3:46] raping her. Uh the charges were made in

[3:49] Washington DC. They were investigated

[3:51] and and no prosecution was ever made. At

[3:55] that point, we started to get phone

[3:56] calls from other people who said they

[3:59] knew of similar incidents, including two

[4:00] anonymous phone calls from women who

[4:02] said they themselves were the victim of

[4:04] similar assaults by the senator. We

[4:07] encouraged these women to tell their

[4:09] stories and put their names on the

[4:11] record. We would much have preferred

[4:13] that they do that, but they were simply

[4:14] unwilling to. In the final analysis, the

[4:16] only choice we had was to publish no

[4:19] story at all or to publish the story

[4:21] without names. Because we believe the

[4:23] story is true, it would be terribly

[4:25] irresponsible of us to not publish the

[4:27] story.

[4:28] >> I came down stairs Sunday morning and

[4:32] there was the headline blazed across the

[4:34] front page of the Seattle Times. Uh, and

[4:37] my first reaction was disappointment. I

[4:41] mean, just bone deep disappointment. Uh,

[4:44] my second reaction was betrayal.

[4:46] >> This is the saddest day of my life.

[4:50] I have devoted over 31 years of my life

[4:54] to public service

[4:57] and I care for people and I have never

[5:02] harmed anyone.

[5:05] But I find now that

[5:08] it is not worth it to continue this

[5:12] campaign for the United States Senate.

[5:15] >> You couldn't watch the press conference

[5:16] and not feel compassion for him, his

[5:18] wife who was with him, his daughter who

[5:20] was with him. It was a truly sad uh

[5:23] experience.

[5:26] >> My emotions are that I just have got to

[5:29] charge ahead and get these things done

[5:31] so uh I can serve the people of the

[5:33] state as best I can.

[5:38] I wish Brock Adams would resign right

[5:40] away. Real quick.

[5:41] >> It scares me that there's people out

[5:43] there like that that you think can be

[5:46] trusted and you've trusted them already

[5:48] and then something like this comes out

[5:50] makes you question your own judgment and

[5:52] their judgment um twice as much.

[5:56] >> Just over 57% of you think Senator Adams

[5:58] should resign right now. Nearly 43%

[6:02] think he should finish out his term of

[6:04] office.

[6:06] >> I really think that he should just be

[6:07] left alone to do his job. He did a damn

[6:09] good job already, you know, and he'd

[6:12] probably continue to do a real good job

[6:13] of people who just let him.

[6:15] >> I think he's done a lot of good. I think

[6:17] he's voted the way I want to vote on

[6:19] environment and on uh the Gulf War and

[6:23] several other things. I do think the

[6:25] allegations they are allegations and

[6:27] then he's basically been tried in the

[6:29] newspapers which um I don't think is

[6:32] uh is fair.

[6:34] >> All of the reaction has been very

[6:35] emotional and it's ranged from a sense

[6:37] that this is journalistic McCarthyism to

[6:40] the sense that the newspaper is

[6:42] tremendously courageous to be willing to

[6:44] put a story like this on the record. He

[6:46] is, I think, deeply hurt that this is

[6:49] how his career is being tainted and he's

[6:53] very sad and he's angry.

[6:55] >> Thank all our supporters just

[6:57] >> a lot of the people would say, "Oh, they

[6:59] felt sorry for Brock or they felt sorry

[7:01] for Brock and Betty Adams." And I

[7:04] thought, you know, nobody has mentioned

[7:06] these victims, you know, that they have

[7:10] uh suffered greatly in in if you believe

[7:13] the allegations. And uh here people are

[7:16] feeling sorry for the wrong person.

[7:20] >> King County Democrats.

[7:21] >> When I heard the news, it was stunning.

[7:23] I think for sure for a lot of people,

[7:25] including myself. And uh I know for

[7:28] myself, my parents went to University of

[7:29] Washington. Brock Adams was student

[7:30] student body president when they were at

[7:32] school. I've heard about my whole life.

[7:33] You know, he's been someone I've admired

[7:34] for a long time. I

[7:35] >> hear a lot of people, a lot of my

[7:36] friends saying that, you know, who can I

[7:39] trust now? You know, you can't trust

[7:41] can't trust Bill Clinton. can't trust

[7:44] Clarence Thomas, can't trust Brock

[7:46] Adams.

[7:46] >> It's not easy for anyone involved,

[7:47] whether you're the accuser or the person

[7:49] who's being accused. It's difficult, but

[7:50] these are issues that need to be

[7:51] addressed. Uh issues of sexual

[7:53] harassment are extremely serious and uh

[7:55] unless they're addressed publicly,

[7:57] you'll be swept under the rug like so

[7:58] many issues like this in the past. I

[8:00] think that it's it's terrible for all

[8:01] involved if we do that.

[8:04] When we come back, we'll be joined by

[8:06] one of Senator Adams top aids who argues

[8:08] that anyone who makes serious

[8:10] accusations should be willing to be

[8:12] identified publicly and by the editor of

[8:15] the newspaper that published the

[8:16] anonymous [music]

[8:17] allegations.

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[10:30] Sunday on this week with David Brinkley,

[10:32] a preview of Super Tuesday. Paul Tongas

[10:34] on whether his pro business liberalism

[10:36] will attract or upset Southern

[10:38] Democrats. Sunday.

[10:42] >> Joining us from our Washington bureau is

[10:44] Tom Keefe Jr. who is Senator Adams staff

[10:46] council and was an attorney in private

[10:49] practice representing men accused of

[10:51] sexual harassment. And joining us from

[10:54] Seattle is Michael Fer, the executive

[10:56] editor of the Seattle Times, which

[10:58] published the story on Brock Adams. Mr.

[11:01] Keith, in our first he segment, you

[11:03] heard Mr. Fer giving his reasons for why

[11:05] he published the uh anonymous

[11:08] allegations. Uh eight women whose

[11:11] stories seem to show a pattern of

[11:12] behavior for Senator Adams. Uh what do

[11:15] you have to say to that?

[11:16] >> Well, initially what I would say is that

[11:19] the one person who has come forward and

[11:21] publicly accused Brock Adams of of

[11:23] drugging and molesting her uh had her

[11:25] charges reviewed by a career panel of

[11:28] prosecutors here in the District of

[11:29] Columbia, including women. And the

[11:31] United States Attorney, after thoroughly

[11:33] reviewing those charges, found them

[11:35] baseless, meritless, and unworthy of

[11:37] prosecution. What the Seattle Times has

[11:40] done over the last three and a half

[11:41] years is to set a crew of its reporters

[11:44] out searching everywhere they can to

[11:46] find women who are willing to make

[11:48] allegations about Brock Adams to make to

[11:51] allow them to keep a veil of anonymity

[11:53] about their identities and then to weave

[11:55] a scenario under which those eight

[11:58] anonymous allegations [snorts] would be

[12:00] used as a magic carpet to somehow try to

[12:02] lift Carrie Tupper's baseless and

[12:04] meritless allegations back to some level

[12:07] of credibility.

[12:08] And I think Mike is exactly right.

[12:10] There's very little difference between

[12:12] Joe McCarthy waving a list of 88 names

[12:14] in West Virginia claiming to have

[12:16] communists at the State Department and

[12:18] Mike Fans in the Seattle Times waving an

[12:20] anonymous list of eight women who claim

[12:22] to have had a variety of encounters with

[12:24] Brock Adams over the last 20 years. It's

[12:26] unfair and it's not journalism and it's

[12:29] not in the American tradition. Well, uh,

[12:31] Miss Tupper, by the way, whose name you

[12:33] just mentioned, is the woman who did,

[12:35] uh, press charges or or made allegations

[12:39] some years back. But these were eight

[12:41] women, and they also are women, seven of

[12:43] them, who have been willing to sign

[12:45] their names, uh, should Senator Adams

[12:48] uh, decide to sue the paper. But Mr.

[12:50] Fancher, let's go to your side. This

[12:52] whole business of publishing something

[12:54] that is anonymous, you can destroy

[12:56] someone who doesn't have a chance to

[12:58] fight back.

[13:00] Well, we would very much have preferred

[13:02] to name the women. We encouraged them to

[13:04] put their names on the record. Uh but

[13:06] the final analysis was that they were

[13:08] unwilling to do that. And so the choice

[13:10] that we faced as a newspaper was whether

[13:12] to let these allegations go unreported

[13:15] or to report them without names. Tom

[13:18] refers to these as encounters with the

[13:20] senator. Uh these are allegations of

[13:23] physical molesting, sexual harassment,

[13:25] very ser serious allegations that go

[13:27] over more than two decades. Given the

[13:30] fact that we corroborated these stories

[13:32] to the best of our ability, given the

[13:34] fact that these women had no seeming

[13:35] political motive for coming forward and

[13:37] given all the work that we did to check

[13:39] out their stories, we believe that it

[13:41] would have been irresponsible to not

[13:43] publish the stories.

[13:44] >> Mr. Fanch, when would you not? I mean,

[13:46] one of the fears is that someone can

[13:47] come forward, make an allegation, and

[13:49] even if it isn't proven, uh, a public

[13:52] person's life can be severely damaged,

[13:55] especially in an election year. When

[13:56] would you not do this? Well, Barbara,

[13:58] you said it. It's not some one coming

[14:00] forward. It's eight women who have

[14:02] worked with the senator in multiple

[14:04] positions over many years whose stories

[14:07] had striking consistencies to them. It's

[14:10] that sense that there's something more

[14:12] here. there's something that amounts to

[14:13] a critical

[14:13] >> eight rather than one.

[14:15] >> Eight rather than one. And I'm not sure

[14:17] that there's a magic number. I think

[14:18] that you have to have all of these

[14:20] elements where you've reported the story

[14:22] fully journalistically before you make

[14:24] the decision to whether or not publish.

[14:26] And let's remember that the basic choice

[14:28] we faced was to publish a story that we

[14:31] believed to be true without names with

[14:33] women who were willing to go to court to

[14:35] testify or publish nothing at all.

[14:38] >> Mr. Keith, uh, when Senator Adams had

[14:40] his press conference, he never

[14:42] categorically denied that these things

[14:44] happened, which left people with the

[14:46] impression that perhaps all or some of

[14:48] these women were telling the truth. If

[14:50] he is innocent, why doesn't he come out

[14:52] and say these women are liars? Why

[14:54] doesn't he sue the paper?

[14:56] >> Well, if the new standard of American

[14:58] journalism is that public figures can

[15:01] have their 30-year reputations destroyed

[15:03] by the Seattle Times, and then their

[15:05] remedy is, why don't you go ahead and

[15:07] sue? The fact of the matter is the AP

[15:09] wire reported and I'll quote Adams 65

[15:12] said the allegations are false. Now he

[15:14] has denied them. He has said he has

[15:16] never hurt anyone in his life. He has

[15:18] never raped anyone. He's never drugged

[15:20] anyone. And the one public allegation

[15:22] was made against him of that was found

[15:24] to be baseless and meritless. Now the

[15:25] fact that the people making the

[15:27] allegations are Democrats for Mike to

[15:29] suggest that that means there's some

[15:30] credibility to them. I'm a Democrat. The

[15:33] Democratic Party is is a house of many

[15:35] different corners. a Republican US

[15:38] attorney in addition to Colombia found

[15:40] the charges here baseless.

[15:42] >> That's one woman and that was not one of

[15:43] these eight. But then why doesn't

[15:45] Senator Adams or Let me ask you this

[15:47] way. Is Senator Adams calling these

[15:49] eight women liars?

[15:50] >> Senator Adams has denied the

[15:52] allegations. He doesn't even know for a

[15:54] fact that the these eight women exist.

[15:56] Well, one of them supposedly was a

[15:59] secretary of his or her secretarial

[16:01] staff and even wrote a letter to him uh

[16:03] when she left saying that this was her

[16:05] reason for leaving. There was a a

[16:08] journalist in the New York Times, Anna

[16:09] Quinnland, who said that these women are

[16:12] nameless but not faceless, that people

[16:14] know them, that they know them on the

[16:15] staff. He recognized none of the

[16:17] stories. Barbara, what I know is that in

[16:20] our system of justice, whether you're

[16:22] alleging a person robbed a bank or

[16:24] you're alleging a person raped and

[16:26] drugged you, in our American jurist

[16:29] credential tradition, a person who makes

[16:31] these kinds of serious allegations has

[16:33] to make them publicly. You have to give

[16:35] a person an opportunity to confront

[16:37] their accuser. And that has not happened

[16:39] here. And Senator Adams life was put on

[16:42] trial in the boardroom of the Seattle

[16:43] Times. They decided on their own that

[16:45] they would convict him with a editorial

[16:48] board meeting. They delivered the corpse

[16:50] of his reputation on the doorstep of

[16:51] every house in the Northwest. It is not

[16:54] journalism. It's the kind of reporting

[16:55] that you usually see in a tabloid at the

[16:57] checkout stand of a newspaper. And it's

[16:59] a disgrace to journalism. And I

[17:01] certainly hope that no other public

[17:03] figure in this country is ever subjected

[17:05] to the kind of assassination of a

[17:07] reputation that Brock Adams suffered at

[17:08] the hands of the Seattle Times. When we

[17:10] come back, we'll be talking with a young

[17:12] woman who had an experience of being

[17:14] sexually harassed by a member of

[17:16] Congress and brought charges and we'll

[17:17] hear her experience. We'll be back and

[17:19] also give you gentlemen a chance to talk

[17:21] more.

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[20:24] >> [music]

[20:29] >> Joining us now from our Washington

[20:31] studio is Dorina Betusi. Miss Buzzi was

[20:34] sexually harassed by former Congressman

[20:36] Jim Bates of San Diego, California while

[20:38] on his staff in 1987 and 1988. She told

[20:42] her story to a Washington newspaper

[20:44] which withheld her identity. But later

[20:45] Miss Petusi went public with her charges

[20:47] and Congressman Bates eventually lost

[20:49] his seat. Mr. Petusi, originally you

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[20:53] publicly because you were afraid you'd

[20:55] never get another job. After all, you

[20:56] have to keep working in Washington who

[20:58] would hire you. Then you did go public.

[21:00] I'd like to ask you if you think that

[21:02] the women who have uh uh accused Senator

[21:05] Adams should go public. What do you feel

[21:07] when you hear about all of this?

[21:09] >> I'm torn. I understand the problem that

[21:12] Capitol Hill women have of not going

[21:14] public. The problem is is that there's

[21:17] going to be so many people on both sides

[21:19] are going to say, "Well, there's no one

[21:21] credible. Who are these eight women? I'm

[21:22] not sure that they even exist. You lose

[21:25] something." Um, it's very difficult to

[21:27] come forward. And I've been through a

[21:28] lot, but some someone has to start the

[21:32] process. You have to come out. And this

[21:35] sounds disgusting, but you have to be

[21:37] you have to look like a victim to a

[21:39] degree. They have to be able to see you.

[21:41] They have to be able to talk to you.

[21:42] They have to get to know your story.

[21:44] where you're coming from, why you're

[21:46] doing things. Both sides, especially in

[21:49] in Bates's case, there was so much spin

[21:51] control going on. It was unbelievable.

[21:53] So many political a lot of political

[21:55] posturing. People have to be able to see

[21:58] someone to to judge.

[21:59] >> So, you think that these women should

[22:00] come forward or the accusations won't

[22:03] stick?

[22:04] >> I I don't know. I would hate to have

[22:09] it. This is very difficult for me

[22:10] because I'm definitely emotionally

[22:11] involved in this. But I would hate to

[22:13] have none of them come forward.

[22:16] >> Someone should come forward at least and

[22:18] say something. I mean, they can't

[22:20] there's got to be some woman that is

[22:23] secure enough in her position and some

[22:24] other things where she can come forward

[22:26] >> and is willing to take the risk.

[22:28] >> Mr. Keith, in the early edition of the

[22:30] New York Times, there is it it says that

[22:33] Senator Adams should either fight or

[22:35] resign now.

[22:37] uh there have been these allegations.

[22:39] There are so many of them even though

[22:41] there was one in the past uh that has

[22:44] not been found to be uh to be credible.

[22:47] But what about that? How does he go on

[22:48] now?

[22:50] >> Well, I think with a great deal of

[22:51] difficulty, but it's important for your

[22:53] viewers to understand that not one of

[22:55] these eight allegations has anything to

[22:58] do with any conduct that occurred in the

[23:00] United States Senate or with a Senate

[23:02] staffer, either on his personal staff or

[23:04] any other staffer on Capitol Hill. One

[23:06] of the allegations is over 20 years old.

[23:09] Uh it's clear that Senator Adams

[23:11] reputation has been ruined. I agree with

[23:13] your previous speaker. It does take

[23:15] courage to come forward and publicly

[23:17] confront a person with an allegation of

[23:19] crime. But the only way we're going to

[23:21] get a maturity in our society where

[23:24] people take sexual harassment and abuse

[23:27] cases seriously is when victims do come

[23:29] forward. Now, you referred to the fact

[23:30] that I've represented men. I also once

[23:33] represented a woman who was charged with

[23:34] sexually abusing a child and the child

[23:36] one week before trial said that she made

[23:39] the whole story up and she just wanted

[23:41] daddy to come home. These kinds of cases

[23:43] there are vulnerable victims.

[23:45] >> We're talking about eight. We're talking

[23:46] about eight people. Let's give Mr. Fer a

[23:48] chance to

[23:49] >> What's magic about eight? What if there

[23:50] were 108?

[23:53] >> Well, I don't know. I think 108 people

[23:55] all putting pointing and accusing

[23:56] figure. It would mean an awful lot of

[23:58] activity.

[23:59] >> What about seven then? Mike, which which

[24:01] was the most credible? Which was your

[24:03] most credible of your aid and which was

[24:04] your least credible?

[24:05] >> I would hope that the women would come

[24:07] forward as well, but I think it's

[24:09] important for society to understand why

[24:11] women don't in a case like this.

[24:12] Barbara, you opened up by saying that

[24:14] the victims aren't treated seriously

[24:16] unless they come forward. The fact is

[24:18] that once they come forward, they're not

[24:20] treated seriously. I'm not an expert on

[24:22] this, but the experts say that it's an

[24:25] issue of power and the more powerful the

[24:27] perpetrator is, the less likely it is

[24:29] that the victims will come forward.

[24:31] That's the psychological component of

[24:33] this. There's a social component as

[24:35] well. And that is that once they become

[24:37] forward, they become the story. They

[24:39] become the issue. And that's what

[24:41] happened to Carrie Tupper. People close

[24:43] to the senator over the last three and a

[24:45] half years have waged a pretty serious

[24:47] campaign to discredit her on things

[24:49] having nothing to do with her

[24:50] allegations.

[24:52] >> That's what happens to victims.

[24:53] >> Mike, why don't you prove that? You've

[24:54] made that statement. You've been

[24:55] pompously declaring that on every news

[24:57] channel in America over the last four

[24:59] days. That is another unfounded,

[25:01] baseless, and meritless allegation.

[25:03] Let's see your tomorrow newspaper where

[25:04] you put one fact behind that statement.

[25:06] I've heard you making it, and I think

[25:08] it's a lie.

[25:09] >> Barbara, I'm not Barbara, I'm not the

[25:11] one making that statement. The competing

[25:12] newspaper in town, the Seattle Post

[25:14] Intelligencer, ran a story this week

[25:16] that said supporters of the senator came

[25:18] to their office privately, secretly,

[25:22] gave them documents, a 2-in stack of

[25:24] documents, made allegations about Carrie

[25:26] Tupper's mental stability. I'm not

[25:28] saying this. It's the competing

[25:30] newspaper saying this.

[25:30] >> Mr. Patrice, this is what we're we're

[25:32] bringing up is something that we've seen

[25:33] in other cases this year, and that is

[25:35] that the person who's the accuser

[25:37] becomes the victim, and that's why they

[25:38] don't come forward.

[25:39] >> Exactly. I went through hell. I had

[25:41] three people on base staff call me

[25:43] independently telling me that he he took

[25:45] a private detective on me and that he

[25:47] was going to if I continued with this he

[25:49] was going to release all this damaging

[25:50] information. I would get threatening

[25:52] phone calls. It has been really rough.

[25:55] Um I'd like to go back and make a point

[25:59] about you said something along the line

[26:01] of the women did not work on his staff.

[26:04] Well, you have to understand that once

[26:07] you get back to the district and if this

[26:09] happened in the district, it's very

[26:11] difficult. Um, the senator is very

[26:14] powerful in the district. Chances are if

[26:16] you had a desire to be a lobbyist and

[26:18] working on a local level

[26:21] that's not may not happen. If you

[26:23] understand what I'm saying, there's a

[26:24] very long reach

[26:25] >> that there's a fear that you won't get

[26:26] another job.

[26:27] >> Exactly. And it's very real. It's not

[26:29] something you're a solution.

[26:30] >> Let me ask you something in just a

[26:31] moment or two that we have left because

[26:32] we're talking about political figures

[26:34] and this obviously doesn't just happen

[26:36] in politics and I'm sure it happens in

[26:38] in in all different businesses but and I

[26:40] don't know whether you know this missi

[26:42] but does it happen more on Capitol Hill

[26:45] more in politics where the men have such

[26:48] power? I think you find it occurring

[26:50] more because of the power involved. Yes.

[26:52] I think since you've had a great

[26:55] predominant uh of of men who have sole

[26:59] authority who do not have any

[27:00] accountability for anything has have

[27:02] exempted themselves. Yes, it does reach

[27:05] more. They do have power. It's not

[27:07] illusionary and it is a problem. Your

[27:09] your career is ruined. Your f your

[27:11] future is ruined.

[27:13] >> Your career is ruined and a man's career

[27:15] can be ruined. and we're talking about

[27:16] journalistic standards and we're talking

[27:18] about people's lives and this is hardly

[27:20] the last time that we are going to be

[27:22] discussing this I'm sure in our society.

[27:24] I thank the three of you for being on

[27:26] with us this evening and and

[27:27] participating in this discussion. We

[27:29] will have more. We'll be back in a

[27:30] moment.

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