PBS NewsHour - 1999-05-05
Channel: malgent
Transcript
Language: English (original, YouTube automatic captions)
[0:00] Teaching and discovery come together.
[0:11] Good evening. I'm Jim Lara. On the
[0:13] NewsHour tonight, a look at the Apache
[0:15] helicopter crash, the cause of the first
[0:17] two US casualties in the Kosovo
[0:19] conflict.Wami
[0:21] Hullman updates the pain and suffering
[0:22] from the Oklahoma tornadoes. Elizabeth
[0:25] Farnsworth talks with a group of Denver
[0:27] High School students about
[0:29] responsibility and Terrence Smith
[0:31] discusses the discovery and the mystery
[0:34] of a body found on Mount Everest. It all
[0:36] follows our summary of the news this
[0:38] Wednesday.
[0:40] Brought to you in part by ADM. Feeding
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[1:10] >> And by the Corporation for Public
[1:12] Broadcasting and by the annual financial
[1:15] support from viewers like you. Two
[1:17] American pilots died today when their
[1:19] Apache helicopter crashed in Albania.
[1:22] They were identified as Army Chief
[1:24] Warrant Officers David Gibbs of Ohio and
[1:27] Kevin Riker of Wisconsin. They were the
[1:30] first American casualties of the Kosovo
[1:32] campaign. President Clinton offered
[1:35] words of sympathy at an air base in
[1:37] Germany. And back in this country, the
[1:39] first of many Kosvar refugees began
[1:41] arriving. Tom Bearden has our Kosovo
[1:43] summary report.
[1:47] The Apache attack helicopter was one of
[1:49] 24 that arrived in Albania last month.
[1:52] It was on a night training mission. The
[1:54] crash of the twoperson helicopter
[1:56] occurred about 1:30 a.m. A security
[1:59] element has secured the crash site. An
[2:01] explosive ordinance disposal team has
[2:03] been dispatched to aid in the recovery
[2:05] effort. There are no indications that
[2:08] hostile fire was involved.
[2:10] Later, an army spokesman said the
[2:12] helicopter might have collided with
[2:13] power lines. At the Pentagon, Major
[2:16] General Charles Wald was asked if the
[2:18] accident would make the Army more
[2:19] cautious.
[2:20] >> From an operator's perspective, I don't
[2:22] think you can get any more cautious than
[2:24] we are of doing the job right. And what
[2:26] I say there is that the training
[2:29] missions they fly, whether it be
[2:30] Apaches, aircraft, or any other type of
[2:32] training, but now we're talking about
[2:34] aviation, uh, is very demanding. It's
[2:37] got a lot of risk attached to it in
[2:38] peace time as well as combat. Uh I think
[2:41] there has been an average of 130 deaths
[2:43] in helicopters over the last 6 years in
[2:46] training incidents.
[2:49] The news of the loss greeted President
[2:51] Clinton as he arrived in Germany for
[2:52] talks with NATO and meetings with
[2:54] American military personnel.
[2:58] Speaking to a group of servicemen and
[3:00] women and their families, Mr. Clinton
[3:02] said he knew their task was hard but
[3:04] necessary. When people throw away that
[3:07] understanding of our common humanity and
[3:10] make differences the only thing that
[3:12] matters and make them so important they
[3:15] justify literally dehumanizing other
[3:17] people so that their lives, their
[3:19] children,
[3:21] their property, their history, their
[3:23] culture, even their faith in God do not
[3:26] matter. That makes life unbearable and
[3:29] it makes civilization impossible.
[3:32] And that is what we are fighting against
[3:35] in Kosova. If we want Europe to be
[3:39] undivided and democratic and at peace
[3:43] for the first time in history, and if we
[3:45] don't want your successors to have to
[3:47] come to this continent and fight another
[3:50] bitter war, then we must stand in Kosova
[3:53] for the elemental principle of the
[3:56] common humanity of every breathing
[3:58] living person in this continent.
[4:02] The president also met with the three
[4:03] servicemen who had been prisoners of war
[4:05] earlier this week before their release
[4:07] by Yugoslavian President Slobodon
[4:09] Mallosvich. The president reportedly
[4:12] also asked Secretary of Defense William
[4:14] Cohen what he might do about releasing
[4:15] the two Serbian prisoners of war. Cohen
[4:18] said they would be released shortly.
[4:19] Right now, the International Red Cross
[4:22] is examining the second prisoner and as
[4:25] soon as they complete their examination,
[4:28] then they'll I will review it and then
[4:30] make a recommendation. But I would
[4:31] expect within a relatively short period
[4:33] of time uh that we could see their uh
[4:37] release. This is not a goodwill overture
[4:39] to Mr. Mallich. I don't believe Mr.
[4:41] Melvich has made any goodwill overture
[4:43] to us. Overnight, NATO bombs and
[4:45] missiles hit the airport in Pristina,
[4:47] Kosovo's provincial capital, and other
[4:49] targets in central and western
[4:51] Yugoslavia.
[4:53] The Alliance air campaign spared
[4:54] Belgrade, but the city was again without
[4:57] power. Serbian media blamed it on carbon
[5:00] fibers that earlier soft bomb attacks
[5:02] had scattered on power substations,
[5:04] shorting them out. Reports are that
[5:06] strong winds picked the fibers off the
[5:08] ground and blew them back into the power
[5:10] stations, shutting them down again.
[5:13] A relief convoy from the Greek branch of
[5:15] Doctors of the World came under fire
[5:17] while on route from Macedonia to
[5:19] Pristina. The group said there was an
[5:21] explosion about a 100 yards away and no
[5:23] one was hurt.
[5:24] >> There were two convoys, I believe, and
[5:26] what I've understood from talking to
[5:28] people in Europe is that uh they've
[5:30] reviewed every possible mission they can
[5:31] review, every tape they can review over
[5:33] that period of time. And there are no
[5:35] indications whatsoever that we attacked
[5:38] even close to one of those convoys. So,
[5:41] uh, we can find no evidence at all that
[5:42] that has any truth to it. And from what
[5:45] I understand, the convoy people are in
[5:47] contact, uh, back, uh, to their own
[5:51] headquarters or their, uh, supervisors,
[5:54] uh, and they don't, uh, know whether
[5:56] they were attacked from the air or the
[5:58] ground. So, they can't even, uh, verify
[6:01] whether it was an air attack.
[6:04] >> Ethnic Albanians continue to flee Kosovo
[6:06] by the thousands. So many people that
[6:08] Macedonia closed the border this
[6:10] afternoon. Reports are that some 1500
[6:13] refugees were turned back.
[6:16] In Kucus, Albania, tent cities have
[6:19] become home to 30,000 refugees, but they
[6:22] may not be permitted to stay there much
[6:23] longer. The UN is considering shutting
[6:26] down the camp because the border has
[6:27] seen repeated shelling from the Kosovo
[6:29] side.
[6:30] >> Unfortunately, we're too close to the
[6:31] border. Uh we don't know what the what
[6:35] the other side is going to do here. We
[6:36] are within their utility range and it's
[6:39] our duty to ensure that the people which
[6:40] we take in our care are are are uh
[6:44] safely accommodated elsewhere.
[6:47] >> The problem is the refugees don't want
[6:49] to leave. They're hoping to connect with
[6:51] family members left behind. The UN
[6:53] refugee commission is also worried about
[6:55] how long the refugees may be displaced.
[6:58] >> We're very concerned about this
[7:00] operation going on through the winter.
[7:02] what it means if we reach September and
[7:04] the refugees are still out in all of
[7:06] these countries uh having to winterize
[7:08] the camps many of them tented camps um
[7:12] uh as one of our colleagues has said or
[7:14] maybe more than one who are on the
[7:15] ground out there if we get to September
[7:17] and we haven't solved the problem then
[7:20] Malashvich has won this war anyway
[7:22] >> NATO commander general Wesley Clark
[7:24] echoed those concerns noting that crops
[7:26] have not been planted and whole villages
[7:28] have been destroyed
[7:30] this morning the first batch of 400 153
[7:32] refugees bound for the US boarded buses
[7:35] in Macedonia and later a chartered 747
[7:38] to begin a 13-hour journey to New
[7:40] Jersey. The US has agreed to accept
[7:42] 20,000 Kosabars on a temporary basis.
[7:51] The jumbo jet touched down at Meuire Air
[7:53] Force Base at 420 Eastern time and the
[7:56] refugees slowly disembarked. Local and
[7:59] state officials lined the tarmac to
[8:00] greet the new arrivals.
[8:04] Most of the refugees showed little
[8:06] emotion, although some of the children
[8:08] seemed excited. They boarded 11 waiting
[8:10] buses to take them to nearby Fort Dicks,
[8:13] where they will be greeted by First Lady
[8:14] Hillary Rodm Clinton. They will be
[8:17] housed in dormatory style rooms. Each
[8:19] will receive welcome kits including
[8:21] soap, shampoo, and a towel. Playrooms
[8:24] have been set up with board games,
[8:25] basketball nets, and big screen TVs.
[8:28] Another room will serve as a place of
[8:30] prayer for the mostly Muslim refugees.
[8:32] Many of the signs at Fort Dicks have
[8:34] been translated into Albanian, and the
[8:36] cooks have taken crash courses on
[8:38] Albanian cuisine. Albanian speaking
[8:41] counselors will be available to help
[8:42] deal with the trauma of relocation. The
[8:45] refugees will be allowed to rest all day
[8:47] tomorrow before meeting with immigration
[8:49] officials and undergoing medical checks
[8:51] on Friday. Fort Dixs will be their home
[8:53] for about two weeks until they're
[8:54] resettled with relatives and sponsor
[8:56] families around the country.
[8:59] >> We'll have more on the Apache helicopter
[9:01] story right after this news summary.
[9:04] Residents of Oklahoma and Kansas tallied
[9:06] the time and costs of rebuilding today.
[9:10] A string of 76 tornadoes swept across
[9:13] their states late Monday and early
[9:15] Tuesday. The same front generated
[9:17] twisters in Arkansas and Texas late
[9:19] yesterday, killing one person and thus
[9:22] raising the death toll to 44. We'll have
[9:24] a full update later in the program
[9:26] tonight. Senators confronted managers of
[9:29] the nation's nuclear laboratories at a
[9:31] Senate hearing today. They said repeated
[9:34] warnings about one scientist, Win Ho
[9:36] Lee, were badly handled. Lee was fired
[9:39] from Los Alamos under suspicion of
[9:42] spying for China. Here's an exchange
[9:44] between the committee chairman, Alaska
[9:46] Republican Frank Mowski, and Los Alamos
[9:49] Director John C. Brown.
[9:52] You do not have any security
[9:54] arrangements that would eliminate the
[9:57] possibility of Mr. Lee or anyone else
[9:59] going in, taking secured information,
[10:02] putting it on a chip, and walking out
[10:04] with it, and either putting it on his
[10:05] own computer or leaving it in his
[10:07] pocket. Is that right? Uh if if someone
[10:10] is taking the information from a
[10:12] classified computer and downloading it
[10:14] onto a medium like a it's probably not
[10:19] whatever it is
[10:20] >> uh and puts it in their pocket and walks
[10:22] out the door. The only protection you
[10:24] have is random searches that we do.
[10:27] >> It's incredible to me that this kind of
[10:29] exposure exists and it's it's so readily
[10:33] available. I mean this is where the the
[10:36] the horse went through the door.
[10:38] >> Well, this is one of the areas that I
[10:40] think everyone is vulnerable from the
[10:42] insider threat is the question of
[10:44] whether you take it out in in whatever
[10:46] form you happen whether it's magnific
[10:49] interest of the country at stake here
[10:51] relative to our weapon system.
[10:53] >> You know, everybody should be subject to
[10:56] search if it's necessary.
[10:58] Brown said lab employees are subject to
[11:00] random searches and he said security and
[11:03] counter inelligence were improving. Two
[11:06] groups of climbers and their guides
[11:08] reached the peak of Mount Everest today.
[11:10] They were the first to do so this this
[11:13] year. Three Americans were among them.
[11:15] Renewed interest in the climb came last
[11:18] Saturday when the body of British
[11:19] mountaineer George Mallerie was
[11:21] discovered. He died on the mountain in
[11:23] 1924. Researchers are trying to
[11:26] determine if he was the first to make it
[11:28] to the top and not Sir Edmund Hillary 29
[11:32] years later. We'll have more on the 1924
[11:35] expedition at the end of the program
[11:37] tonight. Between now and then, the
[11:40] Apaches, the tornadoes,
[11:43] and reflections on responsibility.
[11:54] The Apache helicopter story. Tom Barden
[11:56] begins.
[11:59] >> The Apaches arrived in Albania nearly a
[12:02] month after they were requested by the
[12:03] NATO commander. Delayed by bad weather,
[12:06] a shortage of airlift capacity, and the
[12:08] need for more crew training. The Angular
[12:11] AH64 attack helicopters bristle with
[12:14] guns, missiles, and rockets. They're
[12:16] designed to kill tanks, armored
[12:17] personnel carriers, and troops. Apache
[12:20] units played a major role in the 1991
[12:23] Gulf War, destroying more than 500 Iraqi
[12:25] tanks, hundreds of armored personnel
[12:27] carriers, trucks, and other vehicles.
[12:30] Tactically, the Apaches hug the ground,
[12:33] fly down ravines, duck behind hills,
[12:35] hide behind trees. They search for their
[12:37] targets from concealment, and launch
[12:39] hellfire missiles to hit them from as
[12:41] much as 4 and 1/2 miles away. Army
[12:44] aviation operates in a ground
[12:48] environment. We utilize the same uh
[12:52] terrain features as a a tank, an armored
[12:55] unit or an infantry unit uh would. We
[12:58] operate from the ground regime. We use
[13:01] terrain to our benefit to ingress into
[13:06] the enemy.
[13:07] >> Each Apache with a crew of two can carry
[13:09] up to 16 Hellfire missiles. They can
[13:12] also carry 75 unguided hydra rockets to
[13:15] attack troops in large areas and 1,200
[13:18] rounds for the swivelmounted 30mm
[13:20] automatic cannon. The Apache sensor
[13:22] systems allow it to fly and fight both
[13:24] day and night in all kinds of weather.
[13:27] It makes for a very lethal package and a
[13:29] vulnerable one. As last night's crash
[13:31] proved, flying at night is dangerous
[13:34] even when no one is shooting at you.
[13:36] This is the second night training
[13:38] accident since the unit arrived in
[13:39] Albania. In the first crash, the crew
[13:41] suffered only minor injuries. The
[13:43] >> way we train is we train at night under
[13:45] blackout conditions. We train in a
[13:48] demanding environment because in the all
[13:50] in the long run, this method of training
[13:52] will save lives and accomplish the
[13:54] mission. And that's really it. The
[13:55] bottom line is again, you cannot take
[13:57] the risk out of this business. We're
[13:59] flying in mountainous terrain,
[14:00] unfamiliar terrain. That terrain can
[14:03] also conceal a host of threats from
[14:05] soldiers with rifles to portable
[14:07] surfaceto-air missiles.
[14:09] And to Colonel Michael Hackerson, an
[14:11] Apache pilot and chief of Army war plans
[14:14] at the Pentagon, and Thomas McNau, a
[14:17] senior policy analyst at RAN, a research
[14:20] organization. He served in the Army in
[14:22] Vietnam and as a reservist during the
[14:25] Gulf War. I spoke with them earlier this
[14:27] evening.
[14:29] Colonel, first, uh, what can you tell us
[14:31] about what happened last night?
[14:33] >> Well, Jim, there's not much that we know
[14:35] right now that's been reported back here
[14:36] in Washington. Uh, apparently the what
[14:39] we do know is that there was a crew of
[14:41] two on board. Uh, a CW3, a very
[14:44] experienced pilot and CW2.
[14:46] >> That's chief warn
[14:47] >> chief warrant officer 3 and a chief
[14:48] warrant officer 2. Uh, the aircraft,
[14:50] what we have right now apparently is it
[14:52] did burn after the accident. The team
[14:54] that's investigating the accident will
[14:56] have a lot more information in the
[14:58] future on it.
[14:58] >> But it was a nighttime training mission,
[15:00] correct?
[15:00] >> It was a night training mission uh
[15:02] conducting in preparation for operations
[15:04] to go into Coastal.
[15:05] >> Was the what is known about what the
[15:06] weather was?
[15:07] >> Uh I don't know at this time. Uh that's
[15:10] part of the decision process the
[15:11] commander goes through, but I don't have
[15:12] a weather forecast of what it looked
[15:14] like in the mountains.
[15:15] >> Has uh enemy fire been completely ruled
[15:18] out?
[15:19] >> Uh I really don't know at this time.
[15:20] That is one of the things. The area that
[15:22] they're in is a a bit of a hostile
[15:24] environment in that it is a a northern
[15:28] area of Albania, but I don't I don't
[15:30] really know much more than that about
[15:31] it. Now, there are 24 Apache helicopters
[15:34] there. Now, two of them have crashed. Is
[15:36] this considered a normal uh uh
[15:40] percentage of of of uh failure among
[15:43] these Apaches? Actually, it's really an
[15:45] anomaly because uh for the last 3 years,
[15:47] we've had no fatalities and that's at
[15:49] flying over 100,000 hours a year. So, in
[15:52] the total span of the aircraft's
[15:54] lifetime, we've flown well over a
[15:56] million hours and had a total of 14
[15:58] fatalities. So, this is something we'll
[15:59] look at very closely because it's it is
[16:01] truly an anomaly.
[16:02] >> Yeah. Do you see it that way too, Mr.
[16:04] McNair?
[16:04] >> Yeah. And we don't know the story. Uh
[16:06] but but I do think that it probably has
[16:09] uh something to do with the general
[16:11] risks of bringing Apaches. I mean, these
[16:12] these aircraft survived by staying low
[16:15] and by moving fast. They're training
[16:17] very hard at night to do that, and
[16:18] there's just a lot more to run into uh
[16:20] down close to the ground than there is
[16:22] at 10 or 15,000 ft. So, I don't think we
[16:24] should be entirely surprised. These
[16:26] these people are pushing the edge of the
[16:28] envelope in in their night training, I
[16:30] think, probably pretty hard.
[16:31] >> And why do they do that? Why is it
[16:32] necessary to do that?
[16:34] >> Well, as I say, uh you know, they aren't
[16:36] I I think they're they're not going to
[16:38] survive with electronic suppression.
[16:40] they're going to survive by by hiding in
[16:42] the terrain and by moving fast and and
[16:45] to do that in Kosovo, you've got to do
[16:47] it in the mountains around Toronto to
[16:48] practice. Now, Colonel, much has been
[16:50] said about these Apaches. Uh, as Tom
[16:53] Bearden said in the setup that took a
[16:55] while for the request to be processed,
[16:57] took them a while to get there and
[16:59] they've been there a while and they
[17:00] still have not been introduced in into
[17:02] any combat situation and there have
[17:05] already been two accidents. So what is
[17:07] there a problem with the Apache that we
[17:09] should we we should know about?
[17:11] >> No, actually the unit that uh is down
[17:13] there right now is very well trained. It
[17:15] had been in Bosnia, had been then back
[17:17] to Europe for about 7 months and is
[17:19] returning then back into theater. So
[17:21] they're very familiar with the
[17:22] environment and they were ready to go.
[17:23] The challenge you run into is moving a
[17:26] large force like that into a very
[17:27] austere environment. What we've seen is
[17:30] uh I mentioned to several folks it's
[17:31] parking patients because the airfield
[17:34] they're going into in Tana is also the
[17:35] primary airfield for humanitarian
[17:37] support. So what we've been sequencing
[17:39] in the commander forward has been
[17:41] deciding the priority between moving a
[17:43] force protection force in and then
[17:46] moving in humanitarian assets to make
[17:48] sure they take care of the folks on the
[17:49] ground. The aircraft were ready to go.
[17:52] Now, they will also take advantage of
[17:54] this time to continue their training
[17:55] because uh I used to tell a lot of folks
[17:58] that hard is not the kind of training we
[18:00] do. Hard is coming back telling someone
[18:01] that I've not done some of the training
[18:03] I needed to do. So, therefore, they're
[18:05] taking advantage of this time and when
[18:07] called on, they will be going into
[18:09] combat.
[18:09] >> Mr. McNau, what is your analysis of why
[18:12] it's taken so long, at least from a
[18:13] layman's point of view? It seems like an
[18:15] awfully long time between, hey, we need
[18:17] Apaches and hey, when are they going to
[18:19] start actually doing something? Look, I
[18:21] I think the problem is less with the
[18:23] Apache than with our conception of of of
[18:25] what we want here. The the guiding
[18:27] principle here uh of this operation so
[18:30] far as to keep casualties to a minimum
[18:32] to zero. Uh I think everyone understands
[18:36] if you go to ground war, you're not
[18:37] going to be able to do that. The Apache
[18:39] is sort of nibbling at the edges of
[18:41] ground war. It's an aircraft, but it's
[18:42] an instrument of ground warfare. It's
[18:44] going to be used uh I think outside the
[18:47] normal realm of its doctrine. Uh
[18:49] although Colonel Hackerson knows a lot
[18:51] more about this, it's going to be used
[18:52] without ground support, without ground
[18:54] spotters, deep strike in into an area
[18:57] where the enemy isn't all that heavily
[18:58] armed, but where there is clearly an air
[19:00] defense threat. And I think, you know,
[19:02] there there's probably whatever the
[19:04] logistics problems uh that have taken
[19:06] time setting this up, there's probably
[19:08] been an operational problem. How do we
[19:09] want to run this operation in a way that
[19:12] minimizes our risks? And that takes time
[19:13] to put together.
[19:14] >> You agree? Is that is that true,
[19:16] Colonel?
[19:16] >> It does take time. And in the
[19:18] environment that we're operating in,
[19:19] which will be across the border, even
[19:21] though there aren't ground forces
[19:22] forward
[19:22] >> across the border from Albania into
[19:25] Kosovo,
[19:25] >> even though there aren't ground forces,
[19:27] we practice to also work with the air
[19:29] force. And so, one of the things that I
[19:30] think you'll see is what we call joint
[19:32] air attack training or joint air attack
[19:34] where we'll work with the air force.
[19:35] What we provide them is a very precise
[19:38] look at targets, the high-v value
[19:39] targets that we're going to be finding,
[19:40] armor and armored vehicles and artillery
[19:43] or even command and control nodes. What
[19:45] we provide is an eye on the target, a
[19:47] precise laser to designate it on a
[19:49] common code which the Air Force can then
[19:51] launch missiles or we can launch our own
[19:52] missiles to make sure that we have a an
[19:55] identified target to cut down on any
[19:57] chance of further casualties for anyone
[19:59] in the battlefield.
[20:00] >> But Mr. McNau, isn't there something
[20:02] just inherently more dangerous about a
[20:05] helicopter mechanically and otherwise
[20:07] than there is a normal aircraft line at
[20:09] 15,000 ft?
[20:10] >> Well, well, I do think when you're close
[20:12] to the ground, there's just a whole heck
[20:13] of a lot more to run into. uh especially
[20:15] at fast
[20:16] >> less less ground
[20:17] >> and and a lot less reaction time and you
[20:19] can't punch out of a helicopter the way
[20:21] you can a fixed wing uh aircraft. You
[20:24] know, my concern here
[20:25] >> meaning meaning you can't bail out.
[20:26] There's no there's no time because
[20:28] you're too close to the ground.
[20:28] >> Well, you don't you can't do it anyway
[20:30] even if you were at 10,000 ft, but you
[20:32] don't have many seconds before you hit
[20:33] the ground. So, there's very small
[20:34] reaction time here. Now, this is a
[20:36] there's more risks that go with putting
[20:38] in the Apaches. I think those risks go
[20:39] up the more you start snooping around
[20:43] looking for the paramilitary groups that
[20:45] are actually doing the harm. I I realize
[20:47] that we want to take out uh uh Serbian
[20:50] tanks. But I I don't think what's really
[20:52] happening here, the harm being done to
[20:53] the Kosvar Albanians is being done
[20:55] largely by tanks. It's being done by
[20:57] people, paramilitaries from the Serbs,
[20:59] and those are the people that you want
[21:01] to go after. I think the Apache can do
[21:02] that better than anything we've brought
[21:04] to bear yet, but only if it's willing to
[21:06] go in and snoop around and look for
[21:07] them. And that that raises the risk
[21:09] because the minute this aircraft slows
[21:10] down the look, it becomes a little more
[21:12] vulnerable.
[21:13] >> You're an Apache pilot yourself,
[21:14] Colonel. Uh is there any doubt in your
[21:16] mind that all of these folks who are
[21:18] flying these Apaches in u in Albania
[21:21] know exactly what that risk is?
[21:23] >> They do. And that's our biggest focus
[21:25] for all these years is to mitigate that
[21:26] risk. We've operated in the same
[21:28] environment, even a more lethal
[21:29] environment in the old Soviet regime
[21:31] because we trained to go against Soviet
[21:32] style forces deep in their rear. So,
[21:35] we've mitigated a lot of the risk with
[21:36] survivability equipment on the aircraft,
[21:38] learning a lot of lessons even as far
[21:40] back as Vietnam. As an example, when you
[21:42] talked about survivability of the
[21:44] aircraft, the the Apache is the most
[21:45] survivable aircraft out there today.
[21:47] Why? Why is that?
[21:48] >> It's designed for a couple things. Uh
[21:49] the one here, the the drivetrain of the
[21:53] of the aircraft is designed to withstand
[21:55] a hit from a 23mm anti-aircraft gun and
[21:58] keep flying to get us back to friendly
[22:00] lines. The engines are separated much
[22:02] like an A-10 because that gives you the
[22:04] ability if one engine is knocked out to
[22:06] fly on an A-10, another ground attack
[22:08] aircraft, which also has the engines
[22:10] separated so that they can if they lose
[22:12] one engine fly on on the other one. And
[22:15] with that and the seats and armor
[22:17] plating is throughout the aircraft, a
[22:19] trade-off of weight for armament
[22:21] protection primarily for the crew and
[22:23] key weapons and and uh engine systems.
[22:26] And then on top of that, we've designed
[22:27] the aircraft because normally if it
[22:29] fails, it will drop vertically. So this
[22:31] aircraft is straight down uh if
[22:34] everything fails. If it does that, this
[22:37] aircraft is designed to be dropped three
[22:39] stories and the crew survives and walks
[22:41] away. Witness the other night when the
[22:43] crew
[22:43] >> That's what happened in that case.
[22:44] >> That's right. And they walked away and
[22:45] they're back for duty. So it is designed
[22:47] specifically to be the most survivable
[22:49] aircraft in the world today. We build
[22:52] aircraft, but we grow pilots. And that's
[22:54] our challenge is to take care of the
[22:55] crews and make sure we get them back.
[22:57] >> Mr. McDer, do you think because of these
[22:59] two accidents out of 24 some there
[23:02] should be a reassessment of the use of
[23:04] these Apaches in Albania in this Kosovo
[23:08] situation?
[23:08] >> No, I think for better or for worse,
[23:11] it's what you have to expect. We are now
[23:13] going into a somewhat higher risk period
[23:15] of this conflict. On the other hand, as
[23:17] I said a moment ago, we are we are going
[23:19] to bring to bear a form of firepower on
[23:21] the actual perpetrators of violence in
[23:23] Kosovo that I don't think we've been
[23:24] able to do. So the good news is we will
[23:26] be able to actually influence what's
[23:28] going on, the harm being done to Kosvar
[23:30] Albanians with the Apache. The bad news
[23:32] is the risks go up and I think the I
[23:34] don't know what caused the training
[23:35] accidents, but it wouldn't surprise me
[23:37] if it's a reflection of the increased
[23:39] risk, the need to train more more
[23:41] rigorously. Do you expect uh Colonel for
[23:44] there to be a kind of hey wait a minute
[23:46] let's look at this again before these
[23:49] Apaches are actually employed in combat
[23:52] because of this unusual situation.
[23:53] >> You know we constantly look to mitigate
[23:55] the risk and so what they will be doing
[23:57] in the unit is analyzing the risk
[23:59] figuring out if there's anything else
[24:00] that they could do. They have a very
[24:02] extensive uh checklist of the things
[24:04] that we go through looking at
[24:05] maintenance of the aircraft
[24:06] survivability proficiency and matching
[24:08] of crews to the aircraft. And so they'll
[24:10] be looking at all of that, looking at
[24:11] the terrain, the environment to make
[24:13] sure that they've minimized all those
[24:14] risks. We had a very similar period just
[24:16] before the beginning of ground
[24:18] operations in Desert Storm. I was the
[24:20] aviation planner for Third Army. And as
[24:22] you see pilots getting into this very
[24:24] potentially hostile environment, they
[24:26] tend to train even closer, tighter. What
[24:29] you're seeing is like any sports team is
[24:31] they'll settle down now. They'll be
[24:33] ready to go. They'll have looked at
[24:34] this. It's a very tragic accident, but
[24:36] at the same time, you'll see a
[24:38] confidence that'll build. There's a very
[24:40] tight brotherhood of aviators,
[24:42] >> but these two accidents isn't going to
[24:43] make them wary. Isn't going to make them
[24:45] u isn't going to scare them a little
[24:47] bit.
[24:48] >> It's a reminder that if they want to be
[24:50] old aviators like me, they'll take a
[24:51] good look.
[24:52] >> Okay. Well, Colonel Mr. McDower, thank
[24:54] you both very much. Pleasure.
[25:03] Still to come on the NewsHour tonight, a
[25:05] tornadoes update, reflections on
[25:08] responsibility, and a body on Mount
[25:11] Everest. Kamiwami Hullman has the
[25:14] tornado story.
[25:17] >> The same storm system that spawned
[25:19] Monday's deadly twisters in Oklahoma and
[25:21] Kansas unleashed tornadoes last night in
[25:24] Arkansas and Texas. One woman was killed
[25:27] in Texas. 20 people were injured, more
[25:29] than 100 homes were destroyed, and
[25:31] thousands were without power.
[25:35] Officials now say 76 twisters swept
[25:38] across five plains states Monday,
[25:40] killing 43 people and leaving nearly
[25:42] 2,000 families homeless.
[25:45] In southwestern Oklahoma, thousands of
[25:47] residents were allowed to return to the
[25:49] remnants of their homes today. officials
[25:52] lifted a nighttime curfew in the
[25:53] hard-hit communities around Oklahoma
[25:55] City and more.
[25:57] >> Today, they're going to go in for the
[26:00] first time and they're going to see that
[26:01] it's in rebel and we're going to see the
[26:03] emotion. We're going to see them crying.
[26:05] Uh yesterday, I went in and I saw some
[26:06] of the people that walked up on their
[26:07] house and and it the emotions range from
[26:11] uh wailing and crying to laughing.
[26:13] People were actually laughing. I guess
[26:15] it was just the way that they were
[26:16] dealing with it. National Guardsmen
[26:18] helped residents sift through the debris
[26:20] for whatever personal items could be
[26:22] salvaged.
[26:23] >> First day to get back in here and see
[26:24] what is salvageable, if anything, and
[26:26] and uh we'll go from there. Um
[26:32] I don't know what else to I mean, we're
[26:34] all kind of taking one step at a time, I
[26:37] guess.
[26:38] >> There's five generations of stuff in
[26:40] this house and it's not worth anything.
[26:42] This is what's worth something.
[26:46] The Oklahoma counties of Grady, Garvin,
[26:48] and Mlan, which comprised much of
[26:50] Congressman JC Watt's district, were
[26:52] among the hardest hit. We've seen
[26:55] everything from a 2x4 being stuck in the
[26:58] side of a cross on a church, 200 over
[27:01] 250 mph winds to uh horses dead between
[27:05] two parked cars. It It's been pretty
[27:07] fascinating. Of course, you can see the
[27:09] backdrop here. It's It's pretty
[27:11] devastating.
[27:13] An insurance industry group estimated
[27:15] insured losses in Oklahoma and Kansas
[27:18] will exceed $500 million. Up to 3,000
[27:21] homes are believed destroyed in Oklahoma
[27:24] alone.
[27:25] Rescuers continued searching for more
[27:27] victims in the rubble, but said they did
[27:29] not expect to find any more survivors.
[27:32] There were no reports of how many people
[27:33] remain unaccounted for. Emergency relief
[27:36] officials spoke about their efforts this
[27:38] afternoon. If you're in Oklahoma City
[27:40] right now, you'd see that the
[27:41] infrastructure is up, the water's
[27:43] running, the lights are on, the sewer
[27:44] systems are working, the fire
[27:46] department's there, the police
[27:47] department's there. It's the
[27:48] augmentation of the state government and
[27:49] the federal government that's coming in
[27:51] to help get those things up and going.
[27:53] So, they're doing a very good, very good
[27:55] job uh in that process.
[27:56] >> Currently, we have over 300 personnel in
[27:59] the field that are assisting the state
[28:00] and local government get back on their
[28:02] feet. Both not only the local
[28:04] governments, but individual disaster
[28:05] victims. Some of the things we're doing
[28:07] on the response side is we're providing
[28:09] emergency communications. We're
[28:11] assisting debris clearance through the
[28:12] US Army Corps of Engineers. We're
[28:14] providing disaster medical teams. We've
[28:16] got disaster mortuary teams in there to
[28:18] uh help identify and recover the dead.
[28:22] Uh in addition to that, uh we're
[28:24] providing some emergency power, which it
[28:26] looks like hopefully right now we won't
[28:28] need. Uh and we were looking at
[28:30] providing some some water and ice, which
[28:32] again it looks like is being provided
[28:33] through community sources. Our first
[28:35] response to any disaster of this kind is
[28:37] to provide sheltering and feeding to
[28:39] those the victims that whose homes have
[28:41] been destroyed or have any sort of
[28:42] damage where they cannot remain in their
[28:44] homes. So, we've had people uh on the in
[28:47] the field from the very beginning uh
[28:49] providing the shelter and the feeding.
[28:51] We have gotten some help um in Oklahoma
[28:54] with uh two Baptist kitchens. Uh the
[28:56] Salvation Army has 8 to 10 cantens
[28:58] helping us out and the American Red
[29:00] Cross has eight emergency response
[29:02] vehicles. and we hope to have a total of
[29:04] 31 there. These vehicles go out and
[29:07] provide feeding to people who are trying
[29:09] to do clean up in the home and to rescue
[29:10] workers. Uh we've had shelters open um
[29:14] throughout. Uh the count jumps up and
[29:16] down as people come and go and find
[29:17] family members and friends to stay with.
[29:20] We have over um hundreds of people,
[29:23] hundreds of volunteers and paid staff
[29:25] who are local who have been trained to
[29:26] respond to these kinds of disasters. and
[29:29] but we've also been recruiting over 500
[29:31] people so far from across the country to
[29:33] come in and help and assist with this
[29:35] effort.
[29:37] >> Clouds and showers were predicted across
[29:39] the southern plains tonight, but no more
[29:42] tornadoes.
[29:53] Now, the first of two Elizabeth
[29:55] Farnsworth discussions about
[29:56] responsibility in light of the
[29:58] Littleton, Colorado school shootings.
[30:01] She talked with a group of high school
[30:03] students in a Denver cafe last night.
[30:07] >> Thank you all very much for being with
[30:08] us. I want to know what's changed in
[30:11] your schools and in your lives since the
[30:14] killings at Coline. How about you,
[30:16] Summer? You go to a school here in
[30:18] Denver, not a suburban school. What's it
[30:20] been like at your school since what
[30:21] happened in college?
[30:22] >> Pretty much it's been the same. Our
[30:24] security's always been tight. Um, we've
[30:26] had to wear IDs. We've been checked.
[30:29] Security doesn't know who you are. You
[30:30] don't get to come in school. We've only
[30:32] been able to come in one door. So,
[30:34] everything's pretty tight at our school.
[30:37] Other than that, we're getting back to
[30:38] normal. It was pretty tense. A lot of
[30:40] people were pretty scared.
[30:42] We're we're about seven miles away from
[30:43] Coline and we are their biggest rival in
[30:47] basketball and we I've talked to several
[30:50] kids who um go to our school cuz it was
[30:53] such a traumatizing thing for them and
[30:56] a lot of them aren't necessarily scared
[30:59] of the stereotypical people that were
[31:01] brought up with the trench coats and
[31:03] everything. They're just scared cuz they
[31:04] don't they know it might happen in our
[31:07] school.
[31:07] >> But why? What's happening in kids' lives
[31:09] that this could happen? I think
[31:11] everybody's everybody looks at it as an
[31:13] isolated incident, but um I mean all the
[31:15] shootings that have happened recently in
[31:17] other states. I mean at the first
[31:19] killing that happened, why didn't we
[31:21] decide this is incredible? What are we
[31:22] doing wrong? Kids are going through
[31:24] things that they're not talking about
[31:25] that they're bottling up inside. Kids
[31:27] are taking their anger out on other
[31:31] people and and through weapons and
[31:33] through guns uh because of whatever
[31:35] reason. And I think they needed to
[31:37] realize that then. I think uh I don't
[31:39] think this is very isolated.
[31:41] >> Okay. So, realizing this now, Maggie, in
[31:43] your school, what's your responsibility
[31:44] to to try to make sure that this doesn't
[31:46] happen in your school? What can you do?
[31:49] >> Well, the only thing I think I could do
[31:51] is if I heard something was going to
[31:53] happen is to go tell a teacher or a
[31:57] adviser. I don't really think there's
[31:58] much else I could do.
[32:00] >> Some of you have actually intervened to
[32:02] stop things, Rita. You have. Our main
[32:04] concern is like gang activity and
[32:07] there's a Burger King right across our
[32:09] school, right across the street. It's
[32:10] just a few steps away. And we we were
[32:13] driving through it and we saw two kids
[32:15] walking. They were walking through the
[32:17] back parking lot. And all of a sudden,
[32:19] just cars just rushed out. Just kids
[32:22] jumping out of the trucks, jumping out
[32:24] of cars, some with metal bats, wooden
[32:26] bats, chains.
[32:29] And I I just sat there and I'm like, "Oh
[32:30] my god, they're going to kill him if
[32:31] they get a hold of them." you know,
[32:33] they're going to kill him. And my first
[32:34] reaction was I got in the car and I
[32:36] turned the car back on and I just like
[32:38] drove into the crowd cuz I figured, you
[32:40] know, they're not going to want to get
[32:40] run over, so they're going to get out of
[32:42] the way. And they did. And as soon as
[32:43] the um the kid who was going to get
[32:47] hurt, um as soon as he saw that, he he
[32:49] got up and he started running and I
[32:51] caught up to him and my friend's like,
[32:52] "Get in the car. Get in the car." And I
[32:54] took him home.
[32:55] >> Mhm. Do you think that now
[32:59] we're still talking about danger, trying
[33:02] to act to prevent something bad
[33:04] happening? Do you think that people will
[33:06] act more quickly? Now,
[33:07] >> it depends on the type of danger. If
[33:09] it's something like Well, if it's
[33:11] something they feel they can prevent,
[33:13] probably. Um, if it's something like
[33:16] somebody running through with a gun, I
[33:19] if the kid has her back to him and
[33:21] they've got the gun,
[33:21] >> how about if you just hear you hear a
[33:23] threat?
[33:24] Well, lately since this happened, you've
[33:26] heard tons of threats from not direct
[33:29] threats, but things from people about,
[33:30] well, the school's going to blow up on
[33:33] April 16th, and
[33:36] you have to try to distinguish what's
[33:38] just talk and what's actual fact.
[33:40] >> Mhm. How do you do that?
[33:42] >> Well, I think um distinguishing between
[33:46] talk and fact, I think it's really hard.
[33:47] I mean, there are two things we have to
[33:49] realize about teenagers. Number one,
[33:51] we're not all knowing. We don't know
[33:52] every weirdo at our high school. And
[33:54] number two, we're not police and we
[33:56] can't say, you know, that somebody's
[33:59] perfectly harmless and distinguish
[34:01] someone from someone like uh Eric
[34:03] Harrison and Clebold. And so I think
[34:06] anytime there's a situation that is
[34:09] potentially dangerous to someone else or
[34:10] dangerous to yourself, I think we need
[34:12] to be really careful and blow the
[34:14] whistle if there's any even slightest
[34:16] suspicion that something's getting
[34:17] serious. But I sense that you're saying
[34:19] that there's just a limited amount that
[34:21] you all can do that other people have
[34:25] got to really step in here and do
[34:26] something about this. All right, let's
[34:27] pursue this. Do you have people to go
[34:29] to? Let's say you do hear a threat or
[34:31] you have a sense that somebody's in
[34:32] trouble. Can is there somebody that you
[34:34] can go to that you trust?
[34:36] >> No, I honestly don't think so.
[34:39] >> Why? There are certain teachers at our
[34:41] school who do care a lot, but there are
[34:43] some because they've been teaching so
[34:45] long and have seen so much or for
[34:46] whatever reason just would rather not
[34:48] deal with it. Then of course, you know,
[34:50] the administration's not supposed to
[34:52] deal with problems like that, so they
[34:53] hand it over to the counselors and the
[34:55] counselors are never there to talk to
[34:57] you. If you're lucky and you have a
[34:59] problem, what you can do is fill out
[35:00] this this pretty little pink slip and
[35:02] then maybe, just maybe, within 3 days,
[35:05] they'll get back to you. I believe you
[35:07] can talk to your parents, you can talk
[35:09] to a family member, you can talk to
[35:10] friends of the family. It doesn't always
[35:12] have to be in the school. Most of the
[35:14] time things that you talk about in the
[35:16] school are overlooked like at Coline. So
[35:19] talking to your parents might get things
[35:21] out more if you have communication with
[35:23] your parents or other people outside of
[35:25] school, things might get taken care of.
[35:27] >> Do you feel like your parents know
[35:29] what's happening with you? That they
[35:30] understand the conditions of your school
[35:33] and your
[35:34] >> My school. don't have that much parent
[35:36] activity unless it's report card pickup
[35:38] night. That's that's the only problem at
[35:41] my school. Other than that, that that's
[35:43] the only time. Well, my mom, she knows
[35:45] what happens with me because she she
[35:47] talks to my counselor. She goes and
[35:48] checks up on me. She is she in school?
[35:50] She goes and checks to make sure I'm in
[35:52] school and she talks to them. With with
[35:54] my mom, she knows what's going on in my
[35:55] school. And I I have a relationship with
[35:57] her. She's like my friend. And I could
[35:58] tell her, you know, if if someone's
[35:59] picked on me, I could tell her if I'm
[36:01] picking on someone, you know, which I
[36:03] don't anymore, but you know, I go and
[36:04] tell her, "Yeah, I was, you know,
[36:05] picking on this one and this and that."
[36:07] But she she knows what's happening. But
[36:10] I feel that many of the parents at my
[36:11] school don't know. Do you agree with
[36:12] that, Caleb?
[36:14] >> I don't know if parents really know what
[36:16] teenagers are like to see any kind of
[36:18] warning sign. I mean, you know, they'll
[36:20] say on the news, they they'll put a list
[36:22] of warning signs and and you can see
[36:24] that and say, you know, most teenagers
[36:25] act like half of those. you know, half
[36:27] the time. And so I think as far as you
[36:30] have to I think it comes down to
[36:31] personal responsibility um parents and
[36:34] for kids. If you know your kid um then
[36:37] you know what's going to be going on. Be
[36:38] in your kid's life. Be in his life.
[36:40] Don't just don't just sit back and say,
[36:42] you know, he's a teenager, he's going to
[36:43] do stuff. If something occurs to where
[36:46] you know somebody's going to hurt
[36:47] somebody or you know somebody's going to
[36:48] hurt themselves, then you need to take
[36:50] it on yourself and find somebody to
[36:52] tell. I I don't think I don't think you
[36:54] can sit back and say, you know, if
[36:56] there's nobody to talk to, I'm just
[36:57] going to let it slide because I mean in
[36:59] in any kind of situation, especially
[37:01] something like this, what what are the
[37:03] consequences? What is the price that you
[37:05] pay for sitting back and not and not
[37:07] doing anything?
[37:08] >> Mark Whitney,
[37:10] you play sports. You're also what's
[37:12] called a peer counselor. What
[37:14] responsibility do you have to intervene
[37:16] to prevent harassment of kids? Now,
[37:18] apparently some of these kids at Coline
[37:20] had been picked on. Um, people said that
[37:22] athletes picked on him. Do you have a
[37:24] responsibility to stop that?
[37:26] >> Um,
[37:28] before I would have said no because it I
[37:31] never saw it as that big of a problem. I
[37:33] mean it it happens in every school. Um I
[37:35] was talking to a kid who just
[37:36] transferred to my school um second
[37:38] semester from Coline and uh this was the
[37:41] day the two days after the tragedy
[37:43] happened and uh he was talking about how
[37:46] he felt guilty because he was one of the
[37:48] kids that really really harassed um
[37:51] Dylan and Eric and um it made me think
[37:54] that if I can stop cuz a lot of my
[37:56] friends are the people that do it. We're
[37:58] the jocks. We
[38:01] I mean I'm I'm not proud and they're not
[38:02] I I don't know if they're proud of doing
[38:04] it or what and I don't know why they do
[38:05] it, but um it gives me more of a
[38:08] responsibility to step in and say that's
[38:09] not right. Um to ask them why they're
[38:12] doing it. Um to stick up for a kid that
[38:14] they're picking on. Um, I never thought
[38:17] of it as a responsibility before and I
[38:20] don't know if that's necessarily the
[38:21] whole reason that um, Eric and Dolan did
[38:24] that, but I can at least now try to stop
[38:28] something from happening by stepping
[38:30] into.
[38:30] >> I mean, it happens at all your schools,
[38:32] right? This happens.
[38:34] >> Do you all have this feeling that if
[38:35] somebody's really being picked on,
[38:36] you'll just you'll do something about
[38:38] it?
[38:39] >> Depends kind of on who they're being
[38:41] picked on by,
[38:42] >> how big they are. If you've got like
[38:43] four guys going after some freshman and
[38:46] they're all big football player
[38:47] wrestlers and then you got me,
[38:50] there's not much I can do except
[38:54] run my mouth and run away from hope they
[38:56] chase me instead of him.
[38:59] >> And I think you could at least make them
[39:01] aware though. you don't necessarily have
[39:03] to stop cuz um yeah, we are big
[39:07] football players, but a lot of us are
[39:09] not going to take actions as far as
[39:11] someone's telling another person to
[39:13] stop. Um even if they keep on doing it,
[39:15] at least they know that someone else is
[39:17] out there caring about that person and
[39:18] that person that's getting picked on
[39:20] knows that someone cares about them.
[39:21] >> Those of you who have been picked on,
[39:23] give us a sense of what it's like. Um, I
[39:25] was going to say I was picked on
[39:27] throughout middle school and I think it
[39:29] just takes a different type of person.
[39:32] Um, it depends on how strong you are.
[39:34] For me, I was very strong. If I got
[39:36] picked on, I would try to brush it off.
[39:38] But you, it was always in the back of my
[39:40] mind.
[39:41] >> What's been your experience?
[39:43] >> Uh, I have gone through, not in recent
[39:46] years, but in my past, uh, heavy name
[39:49] calling and ridicule from my peers. Uh
[39:52] people wouldn't even didn't even want to
[39:55] be seen around me until about fourth
[39:57] grade when I actually did start getting
[39:59] friends because I would try to make
[40:00] friends, but nobody wanted anything to
[40:02] do with me. And being a social outcast
[40:05] like that at that early in age,
[40:07] especially to the point where some of
[40:08] the teachers even ridicule you and go
[40:10] along with what the rest of the children
[40:11] are saying, it gets to you and it makes
[40:14] you cold and bitter to the point where
[40:16] yeah, you don't care about it anymore
[40:17] when you're older, but it leaves, you
[40:21] know, in the way you think, in your
[40:24] reactions to things. It desensitizes you
[40:26] to a point where I don't think any media
[40:28] or any song or anything else can ever
[40:30] do.
[40:32] And I still feel it today, but I brush
[40:34] it off. But it's an intricate part of
[40:36] what made me the person I am today.
[40:38] >> So you had some understanding of the
[40:40] kind of anger that that that Clelebold
[40:43] and Harris had. I do cuz it it rips
[40:45] people up differently and it affects
[40:47] everybody differently. And there is a
[40:49] point for everybody where you will snap.
[40:53] For me, I never reached that point. I
[40:54] probably never will, but for them, they
[40:56] did. And something had to be going on
[40:58] there that really really pushed the
[41:00] right buttons, you know, to get them to
[41:02] do this because I mean it was just you
[41:04] don't just wake up one morning and say,
[41:06] "Hey, I'm going to go shoot my
[41:08] classmates.
[41:09] I'm going to go pipe bomb up the
[41:11] school." You don't just wake up one
[41:12] morning and figure that out. Something
[41:14] has to develop over years and years and
[41:16] years that leads up to something like
[41:18] that. You know, I think people people
[41:20] make the mistake of thinking that it's
[41:22] just it's just kids of the alternative
[41:24] cultures or whatever that that do feel
[41:27] this pressure in high school, but I I I
[41:30] can I think it's safe to say that
[41:31] anybody in high school feels extreme
[41:33] pressures on all sides of the media, on
[41:36] all sides of their friends and all sides
[41:38] of anybody going to high school. Um,
[41:40] anybody, even the most popular kids in
[41:42] school.
[41:42] >> Is this true? Is everybody agreeing with
[41:44] this?
[41:44] >> Yeah.
[41:45] >> You feel just lots of pressure. Life is
[41:47] hard, but we just have to deal with it.
[41:48] We don't have to go pick it out on
[41:50] anyone.
[41:51] >> We have counselors in school. We have
[41:54] our parents at home.
[41:55] >> Yeah. But that doesn't help when they
[41:56] when someone decides to start taking
[41:58] stuff out on you and you go you can
[42:00] brush it off at the time, but then when
[42:02] you go home, you're like, "What's so
[42:03] wrong with me that uh nobody really
[42:05] wants to be around you?" Finally, do you
[42:08] get the feeling, Kira, let me ask you,
[42:10] that there will be some real changes
[42:14] because of what happened uh at Coline or
[42:17] do you get the feeling it's something
[42:18] that there's a lot of interest in right
[42:20] now and it'll just disappear?
[42:22] I have the feeling that it will die down
[42:25] because this is human nature to mourn
[42:27] for it and to go through it and to
[42:30] experience it while it's happening and
[42:32] then as soon as it's gone, it's gone.
[42:35] I think that in Colorado it won't die
[42:37] down. I think that there's always going
[42:39] to be the security how it is in schools
[42:42] where you can only get in through the
[42:44] main doors and all the other doors are
[42:45] locked. I think throughout the country
[42:47] it won't though. I think it really has
[42:49] to hit home for you to realize how
[42:52] serious it is. And I mean like it's not
[42:54] just with the schools like not like
[42:57] locking the outside doors. It's with
[42:59] like parents like paying attention to
[43:01] their kids and kids not picking on kids.
[43:03] I mean, it goes a lot further than just
[43:05] security and things like that.
[43:08] >> Okay. Well, thank you all very much for
[43:10] being with us.
[43:12] >> Tomorrow night, Elizabeth will have a
[43:14] similar discussion with some Denver area
[43:16] parents and teachers.
[43:27] Finally tonight, a very new angle to a
[43:30] very old Mont Everest mystery. and to
[43:33] Terrence Smith.
[43:35] >> It was June 1924.
[43:38] George Mallerie and his team set out to
[43:40] be the first to conquer Mount Everest,
[43:43] but they vanished near the summit.
[43:45] Whether the Englishman made it to the
[43:47] top or not remains one of the great
[43:50] mysteries of the mountain. Now, 75 years
[43:53] later, an expedition has discovered
[43:55] Mallalerie's body on a rock ledge some
[43:58] 2,000 ft below the summit. The remains
[44:01] were conclusively
[44:03] identified
[44:05] in the surrounding area investigated by
[44:08] our team. The team still hopes to answer
[44:11] Mount Everest most famous riddle.
[44:13] Whether or not Mallerie reached the
[44:15] summit, the key to the mystery may be
[44:18] found in a primitive Kodak camera
[44:20] carried by Mallalerie's companion,
[44:22] Andrew Sandy Irvin. The expedition is
[44:26] still searching for Iran's body. Kodak
[44:29] says the cold may have preserved the
[44:31] film. If Mallalerie is found to have
[44:33] reached the 29,000 ft summit, Sir Edmund
[44:37] Hillary, honored along with Sherpa
[44:39] Tenzing Nor in May 1953 as the first men
[44:43] to scale the world's highest peak, would
[44:46] lose the claim. For 45 years, people
[44:49] have regarded me as the as the hero of
[44:53] Everest. So, I've done pretty well
[44:55] anyway. So, I couldn't complain too much
[44:57] if uh that Mallerie had proved to have
[45:00] actually reached the summit.
[45:02] >> After resting for a week or so at base
[45:04] camp at 17,000 ft, the search team
[45:07] intends to climb Everest again in what
[45:10] they hope will be a final effort to
[45:12] unravel the mountains mystery.
[45:15] Joining me is mountaineer and filmmaker
[45:17] David Brashier, who has climbed to the
[45:19] top of Mount Everest four times. He too
[45:22] has searched for the remains of
[45:24] Mallalerie and Irvin and made it a film
[45:26] entitled Everest, the mystery of
[45:29] Mallalerie and Irvin. Brashier's new
[45:31] memoir about mountain climbing and film
[45:33] making just out this week is entitled
[45:36] High Exposure. David Brashier's welcome.
[45:39] Um, as someone who has searched himself
[45:43] for Mallerie, do you find this evidence
[45:46] uh conclusive?
[45:48] Well, it's conclusive uh evidence uh
[45:50] that they've found Mallalerie and it it
[45:53] confirms what we've known all along that
[45:56] Mallerie uh body did come to rest
[45:59] somewhere high on the slopes of Everest
[46:01] 75 years ago. And it's also a uh this
[46:05] discovery is a tremendous uh tribute uh
[46:08] to the research team uh that's been up
[46:10] there working so hard and has been uh
[46:13] partially funded by uh the Nova Science
[46:16] series and the BBC. It's just um it's
[46:19] really exciting. I I didn't expect to
[46:21] find myself quite so excited about the
[46:24] discovery of George Mallerie.
[46:26] >> It's it's quite extraordinary, isn't it,
[46:28] that they found a body in the in the
[46:30] vastness of Everest. Well, there there
[46:32] have been some very important clues over
[46:34] the year. This isn't a a needle in a hay
[46:37] stack. They're not searching all sides
[46:40] of Mount Everest. Uh in 1933, a team of
[46:43] British climbers following in the
[46:45] footsteps of Mallalerie and Irvin uh
[46:48] discovered uh Irvin's iceaxs lying on a
[46:51] slab on the route on on a on a
[46:54] traversing section of the route, much
[46:56] like a a low angled uh slate uh roof. No
[47:01] ice uh no no climber would leave his
[47:03] iceax behind. So this iceax could only
[47:07] be uh the side of an accident. you don't
[47:09] just put it down and leave it. You don't
[47:11] leave your boots behind. So, it was a
[47:14] matter of of following the fall line
[47:16] down this short cliff, this three or 400
[47:18] foot cliff to a terrace uh a low angle
[47:22] snow terrace about the size of a
[47:24] football field uh and looking there
[47:26] where we assumed uh the body would have
[47:29] stopped. Another clue came out in 1975
[47:34] uh when a when a a Chinese climber
[47:36] trying to climb uh the North Ridge via
[47:39] the North Pole wandered out onto that
[47:41] terrace, not really looking for anything
[47:43] and came back uh and commented to his
[47:47] companion that he had found English
[47:49] dead. Unfortunately, four years later,
[47:52] when he reported that information uh to
[47:55] anyone who could really take notice of
[47:57] it, a Japanese climber, uh before he
[48:00] could fully explain it, he was killed
[48:01] the next day in an avalanche. So, those
[48:04] were our two clues which led the team to
[48:06] be able to search not the entire
[48:09] mountain for Mallerie Iran, but really a
[48:12] fairly uh uh con uh described uh area.
[48:17] Well, this body was found some 2,000 mi
[48:19] uh 2,000 ft rather uh down from the
[48:22] summit. So, here's the $64,000 question.
[48:26] Was he on his way up or his way down?
[48:29] >> And that is uh the question we still
[48:32] cannot answer. We have found a body uh
[48:35] by looking at a body. What can we learn?
[48:38] Well, we've learned from what I've heard
[48:40] uh from reading the NOVA website and
[48:43] from uh listening to reporters who've
[48:45] called me and been speaking uh to
[48:47] climbers, the climbers at base camp,
[48:49] we've learned that that Maller's uh had
[48:52] a broken leg and other injuries so that
[48:55] he fell. It was an accident uh
[48:59] approximately where we thought there was
[49:01] an accident. whether he was going up or
[49:04] down. Uh there is no evidence on on his
[49:07] uh body uh to let us uh uh uh know that
[49:12] um when you die in an accident like
[49:14] that, you can't be a Captain Scott in
[49:16] your tent in the Antarctic writing uh a
[49:19] note uh to your wife uh about uh your
[49:22] imminent death uh maybe before uh after
[49:25] you've already reached the summit. The
[49:27] real clue and what they are really
[49:29] looking for more than a body is is the
[49:33] camera, the Kodak vest pocket camera
[49:35] that Mallerie or Irvin was carrying.
[49:38] >> And if they find that camera, because of
[49:40] course the team is going to go back up
[49:42] to that area and search for Irvin and
[49:46] search for the camera. Um, what is it
[49:49] possible that that film could be still
[49:51] good? Well, what we found out uh when we
[49:54] were going to Mount Everest in 1986, I
[49:58] was going there with a a friend who'd
[49:59] researched this quite extensively, Tom
[50:01] Hodzelle. Uh he contacted the Kodak
[50:04] Corporation and they said, "This is an
[50:06] ideal environment to preserve film. If
[50:09] that small camera, and it was small, it
[50:12] fits into a to a man's vest pocket. If
[50:15] it's undamaged, meaning no light has has
[50:18] fallen onto that exposed film in that uh
[50:22] in that thin dry cold air. Uh the image
[50:26] uh the unexposed image should be
[50:28] preserved. And they gave us careful
[50:30] instructions to wrap it in special foil,
[50:34] seal it in a plastic bag, keep it cool,
[50:37] and return it uh to their laboratories
[50:41] for processing. So if on this next time
[50:44] up and this is going to be very exciting
[50:45] over the next week um if they find the
[50:48] camera um and there is an image on it uh
[50:52] from the summit and and I think that's
[50:54] maybe not too likely but if there is
[50:57] they should be able uh to print it.
[51:00] >> There was one other clue as I also read
[51:03] the website uh and the accounts of the
[51:06] searchers. They found uh Mallalerie's
[51:08] snow goggles tucked in his pocket. What
[51:11] does that tell you?
[51:12] >> Well, it could have mean uh it could
[51:14] mean a couple of things. Uh to me, uh
[51:18] the the mountaineer, it means a man
[51:21] descending uh maybe in near darkness or
[51:25] in heavy cloud. And we do know that they
[51:28] were last seen uh halfway to the summit
[51:32] before heavy mist and a snow squall came
[51:35] in. Generally though, I would wear my
[51:38] goggles in a snow squall to keep the
[51:40] snow out of my eyes. So, if they were
[51:43] coming down in the evening on this this
[51:45] low angle but but treacherous terrain,
[51:48] uh once again, like a slate roof, easy
[51:51] to to slip on and start tumbling in a
[51:54] fall you can't stop. Then, say a half an
[51:56] inch or inch of snow had fallen. They're
[51:59] exhausted, sleepdeprived,
[52:02] um dehydrated, hypoxic. One of them
[52:05] slips on the slick surface in the dark
[52:08] and pulls the other off. People often
[52:12] have accidents, tired and and less
[52:15] focused on the descent. Now, could he
[52:18] have had a pair of goggles on that fell
[52:21] off when he fell and been carrying a
[52:24] spare pair in his pocket? Uh, I think
[52:27] that's not where you carry your spare
[52:29] goggles. Um, and I think he only had one
[52:32] pair. And the fact they're in his pocket
[52:34] means it was probably late in the day.
[52:37] >> He was found uh the body was found uh
[52:41] dressed in a tweed suit and wool and
[52:44] cotton parka. I I wonder what that says
[52:47] to you, a mountaineer, about climbing
[52:50] then and climbing now. Well, we hold
[52:53] those uh those great early British
[52:56] climbers in the highest regard almost uh
[52:59] I'm almost aruck by their achievements
[53:01] back in the 20s. And it's not it's not
[53:04] really about the clothing they wore. Uh
[53:07] they're like uh us. Their flesh freezes
[53:10] at the same temperature. Um the wind uh
[53:14] makes them just as cold. They climbed
[53:16] later in in the year and Mount Everest
[53:18] is at the same latitude as Fort
[53:20] Lauderdale, Florida. And in early June
[53:23] with that Himalayan sun right overhead,
[53:26] it can actually be quite comfortable
[53:29] high on Everest. You know what really uh
[53:32] makes me marvel about those early
[53:34] pioneers is every step they took was
[53:38] into the unknown. They had great faith
[53:40] in their equipment. every explorer of
[53:44] that day takes the best equipment of the
[53:47] day.
[53:48] But they they knew nothing about high
[53:50] altitude physiology. They didn't know um
[53:54] really a lot about the weather back then
[53:56] and and they didn't know what what what
[53:59] was on that ridge. Uh how hard would it
[54:01] be? So they were really just really
[54:04] brave uh uh spirited men with a great
[54:08] attitude. in just a few seconds that we
[54:10] have left. How does this make you look
[54:13] at either Everest or Mallalerie
[54:15] differently?
[54:16] >> You know, the amount of respect uh I
[54:19] hold for those early mountaineers uh
[54:22] hasn't changed at all. Um it will change
[54:25] if there is a picture of of uh of
[54:28] Mallerie or Irvin on the top. Uh uh I
[54:32] just uh all I can say is for this next
[54:34] week I am going to be tuned in or glued
[54:37] to my computer and the NOVA website and
[54:40] see what uh they find next.
[54:42] >> David Brashier, thank you very much.
[54:44] >> Well, thank you
[54:53] >> again. The major stories of this
[54:55] Wednesday. Two American pilots died when
[54:57] their Apache helicopter crashed in
[55:00] Albania on a night training exercise.
[55:02] They were the first American casualties
[55:04] of the Kosovo campaign. 453 Kosvar
[55:08] refugees arrived at Fort Dicks, New
[55:10] Jersey, with thousands more to follow.
[55:13] And tornadoes in Arkansas and Texas
[55:15] killed one person. 43 people died in
[55:18] twisters Monday in Oklahoma and Kansas.
[55:21] We'll see you online and again here
[55:23] tomorrow evening. I'm Jim Lara. Thank
[55:25] you and good night.
[55:29] >> Brought to you in part by ADM. Feeding
[55:31] the world is the biggest challenge of
[55:33] the new century. ADM is promoting soil
[55:36] conservation so history doesn't repeat
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[55:59] >> and by the Corporation for Public
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[56:06] >> On tomorrow's Morning Edition, we'll
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[56:12] can always expect a little something
[56:14] different, too. Join us between 3 and
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[56:28] Video cassettes of the NewsHour with Jim
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[57:31] Did you know that the French lost more
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