PBS NewsHour - 2005-08-29 (Hurricane Katrina)
Channel: malgent
Transcript
Language: English (original, YouTube automatic captions)
[0:11] Good evening, I'm Gwen Eiffel. Jim Lara
[0:13] is off. On the NewsHour tonight, our
[0:15] summary of the news, then an update on
[0:18] Hurricane Katrina, the physical damage,
[0:21] and the cleanup to come. The new Iraqi
[0:24] constitution, does it hold the promise
[0:25] of democracy or the seeds of division?
[0:28] and a newsmaker interview with
[0:30] Democratic Senator Patrick Ley about
[0:32] next week's confirmation hearings for
[0:34] Supreme Court nominee John G. Roberts.
[0:39] Major funding for the NewsHour with Jim
[0:41] Lara has been provided by
[0:45] >> Proud Parents Jake and Paula just sent
[0:48] their fourth son off to an Ivy League
[0:50] college.
[0:53] >> You think it's easy putting four kids
[0:54] through college? We've been working at
[0:56] this since we got married. Now, two of
[0:58] them are going to business school. Trust
[0:59] me, it's been no walk in the park. If we
[1:01] didn't have someone good helping us plan
[1:03] this whole thing, we never would have
[1:04] been ready.
[1:10] >> Smith Barney. This is who we are. This
[1:12] is how we earn it.
[1:14] >> Somewhere west of Shenyang, a teenager
[1:17] is stopping for dinner. Which is why the
[1:20] soybean harvest west of Peoria is not
[1:22] stopping. And a soybean processor is not
[1:25] stopping. And a ship's captain on the
[1:27] west coast is stopping, but just for a
[1:30] while. Somewhere west of Shenyang, a
[1:32] teenager is stopping for dinner. A
[1:34] dinner rich in soy protein. At ADM, we
[1:38] like the idea there'll be no stopping
[1:39] him. Now, ADM, resourceful by nature and
[1:44] by Pacific Life and CIT.
[1:49] This program was made possible by the
[1:51] Corporation for Public Broadcasting and
[1:54] by contributions to your PBS station
[1:56] from viewers like you. Thank you.
[2:04] Hurricane Katrina hit the Gulf Coast
[2:06] hard today from Louisiana to the Florida
[2:09] panhandle. The storm blew ashore between
[2:11] New Orleans and Buxy, Mississippi with
[2:14] pounding winds and flooding. It killed
[2:16] at least two people and damaged
[2:18] thousands of homes. Spencer Michaels has
[2:20] our report.
[2:22] >> Just before Katrina made landfall this
[2:25] morning, the giant hurricane weakened
[2:27] slightly from a category 5, the
[2:30] deadliest and strongest class with 175
[2:33] mph winds to a category 4 storm with
[2:37] winds approaching 150 mph. Katrina also
[2:41] turned eastward enough to spare New
[2:43] Orleans the direct hit the city had long
[2:46] feared.
[2:48] But the mammoth storm still packed
[2:50] awesome power, mighty winds, blinding
[2:54] torrents of rain, and deadly storm
[2:58] surge. A wall of water 20 ft high in
[3:00] places. Katrina takes its place among
[3:03] the strongest hurricanes to ever hit the
[3:06] United States and the fiercest in more
[3:08] than a decade. The storm zeroed in on
[3:11] the bayus and lowlands of southeastern
[3:13] Louisiana
[3:15] and beyond. It plowed into the Gulf
[3:17] Coast of Mississippi, drowning the
[3:19] resort towns of Gulfport and Baloxy.
[3:22] Governor Haley Barber took early stock
[3:24] of the damage this afternoon.
[3:26] >> The question is, do I have any estimate
[3:28] of what the cost of damage is? Is higher
[3:30] than I can count, but I can't be much
[3:33] more specific than that. We don't have
[3:35] any specific casualty reports,
[3:39] but we know there will be some.
[3:42] >> Portions of Alabama's Gulf Coast also
[3:44] took a pounding as the storm surged up
[3:47] Mobile Bay. By midday, Katrina had
[3:50] weakened but kept blasting north. Huge
[3:53] swats of the area suffered power
[3:55] outages. Heavy flooding could also
[3:57] affect sewer and water systems in the
[4:00] region. In New Orleans, there was
[4:02] widespread flooding and wind damage, but
[4:05] nothing approaching the predictions of
[4:07] near biblical destruction that led Mayor
[4:09] Ray Negan to order the city emptied
[4:12] yesterday. The Crescent City is
[4:14] surrounded by water. Lake Poncha Train
[4:17] to the north, the Gulf of Mexico to the
[4:19] east, and the Mississippi River, which
[4:21] snakes its way around the southern
[4:23] limits. Making matters worse, much of
[4:26] New Orleans lies below sea level. Though
[4:28] it is protected by a bull work of levies
[4:31] and a system of water pumps and drainage
[4:33] canals, it was the prospect of a 30foot
[4:36] storm surge overwhelming those defenses
[4:39] and inundating the city that led to the
[4:42] unprecedented mandatory evacuation
[4:44] order. Mile after mile of cars jammed
[4:48] the highways heading out of New Orleans
[4:50] yesterday as nearly 400,000 residents
[4:53] left for somewhat higher ground.
[4:56] >> We've never left before, so this is kind
[4:58] of new for us.
[4:59] >> I am worried, but there's nothing I can
[5:01] do about it but pray.
[5:02] >> Around a 100,000 stayed behind to ride
[5:05] out the storm, either unable or
[5:08] unwilling to leave. The city opened
[5:10] emergency shelters, including the 70,000
[5:14] seat Louisiana Super Dome. Roughly
[5:16] 10,000 Orleaners sought refuge there.
[5:19] This morning, as Katrina roared by, it
[5:22] peeled back two small sections of the
[5:24] dome.
[5:26] The hurricane disrupted oil output in
[5:28] the Gulf and the price of crude topped
[5:31] $70 a barrel overnight. It slid back
[5:34] later and ended up gaining just over a
[5:36] dollar to settle at $67.20. 20 cents a
[5:39] barrel. White House officials said today
[5:41] President Bush might open the strategic
[5:44] petroleum reserve that would give
[5:46] refineries a temporary supply to make up
[5:48] for disruptions caused by the storm. The
[5:51] president has already declared Louis
[5:53] Louisiana and Mississippi disaster areas
[5:56] that sets the stage for federal recovery
[5:58] efforts. Mr. Bush took note of the
[6:00] emergency as he spoke today in Elmari,
[6:03] Arizona.
[6:04] My fellow citizens here in Arizona and
[6:06] across the country are saying our
[6:08] prayers for those affected by the
[6:10] hurricane Katrina.
[6:12] Our our Gulf Coast is getting hit and
[6:14] hit hard.
[6:17] I want the folks there on the Gulf Coast
[6:18] to know that the federal government is
[6:21] prepared to help you when the storm
[6:22] passes.
[6:23] >> We'll have much more on the hurricane
[6:25] right after this news summary. In Iraq
[6:28] today, Sunni Arabs denounced the new
[6:30] draft constitution. Thousands of people
[6:33] protested in Saddam Hussein's hometown
[6:35] of Toree. Their leaders urged Sunnis to
[6:38] vote against it in the last in in this
[6:40] October's referendum. Shiite and Kurdish
[6:43] leaders submitted the document to
[6:44] parliament on Sunday. The Sunnis
[6:46] objected to creating powerful Shiite and
[6:49] Kurdish states among other things. We'll
[6:51] have more on this story later in the
[6:53] program. The United Nations reported
[6:55] today the production of opium in
[6:57] Afghanistan has fallen but only
[6:59] slightly. A top UN official said a
[7:01] crackdown reduced the acreage of opium
[7:04] poppies by more than 20%. But he said
[7:06] the actual yield shrank by far less
[7:09] about 2% thanks to ideal growing
[7:12] conditions.
[7:13] >> Conditions were very favorable to good
[7:16] agricultural harvest in general not only
[7:19] opium.
[7:20] Heavy rainfalls, snowfalls, no
[7:24] infestation of vermin and uh and
[7:27] microbes against uh the opium plants
[7:30] resulted in a very significant increase
[7:33] in the productivity.
[7:35] >> The decrease in opium was the first
[7:37] since the fall of the Taliban in 2001.
[7:39] Afghanistan still produces nearly 90% of
[7:42] the world's supply. A top Senate
[7:45] Democrat pressed today for all documents
[7:47] on Supreme Court nominee John Roberts.
[7:50] Senator Patrick Lehey of Vermont, the
[7:52] ranking Democrat on the Judiciary
[7:53] Committee, met with Roberts on Capitol
[7:55] Hill today. Afterward, he told the
[7:57] NewsHour he wants the material Roberts
[7:59] wrote in the Solicitor General's office
[8:01] under the first President Bush. The
[8:04] administration says legal advice to a
[8:06] president should remain confidential. We
[8:08] will have the Lehey interview later in
[8:10] the program. Accounting firm KPMG
[8:14] admitted to creating illegal tax
[8:15] shelters today. The company agreed to
[8:17] pay $456 million in federal penalties
[8:21] and fees. It will also create a
[8:23] compliance and ethics board. IRS
[8:26] Commissioner Mark Iverson said the
[8:28] firm's wealthy clients avoided billions
[8:30] of dollars in taxes between 1996 and
[8:33] 2002.
[8:35] >> The only purpose of these abusive deals
[8:38] was to further enrich the already
[8:40] wealthy and to line the pockets of KPMG
[8:44] partners. KPMG's actions were a direct
[8:47] assault on our progressive system of
[8:50] income taxation
[8:52] and left unchecked would have badly
[8:55] eroded the faith of hardworking
[8:58] taxpaying Americans in the fairness of
[9:01] government itself.
[9:03] >> Federal prosecutors also indicted eight
[9:05] former KPMG employees on charges they
[9:08] tried to defraud the IRS. On Wall Street
[9:11] today, the Dow Jones Industrial Average
[9:13] gained more than 65 points to close at
[9:16] 10,463.
[9:17] The Nasdaq rose more than 16 points to
[9:20] close above 2137.
[9:22] That's it for the news summary tonight.
[9:24] Now it's on to Hurricane Katrina, the
[9:27] new Iraqi Constitution, and Senator
[9:29] Patrick Ley.
[9:40] Now, Hurricane Katrina and its immediate
[9:42] aftermath. We begin with the latest on
[9:44] Katrina's path. And for that, I'm joined
[9:46] by Joe Bastardi, meteorologist and chief
[9:49] hurricane forecaster for Acue Weather.
[9:51] Thanks for joining us.
[9:52] >> Well, it's my pleasure.
[9:54] >> How big a storm in the end was this?
[9:57] >> It was a tremendous storm. It uh the
[9:59] barometric pressure in the storm was, I
[10:01] believe, the fourth lowest on record.
[10:04] And also uh for it to hit the United
[10:06] States, it probably was the uh in the
[10:09] top five or six as far as strength goes,
[10:12] 918 millibars. He to put it in
[10:14] perspective with Andrew for instance,
[10:16] Andrew was 921 millibars, which is a
[10:19] measure of the barometric pressure or
[10:21] the depth of the low pressure of the
[10:23] storm. And this was a much bigger storm.
[10:26] And when the totals come in, I'm sure it
[10:28] will have justified a lot of uh what
[10:30] people were saying about it. Now, I want
[10:32] to make something clear. is sort of a
[10:34] pet peeve of mine. This was not the
[10:36] perfect track to take New Orleans under.
[10:39] It was a very, very bad storm and a very
[10:42] risky storm for New Orleans. But the the
[10:45] ideal perfect track, I'm going to show
[10:47] you that in just a moment, was not this
[10:49] track. And I think what happened was a
[10:52] lot of people got carried away with uh
[10:54] some things and then turned around and
[10:56] said, "Well, look, it wasn't as bad as
[10:57] what it was supposed to be." Is every
[10:58] bit as bad. And when the damage figures
[11:00] come in, we will be seeing that. Well,
[11:02] you can see this list up here where this
[11:04] ranks number four. I mean, there's been
[11:06] over a thousand hurricanes that we've
[11:08] recorded. This is the fourth strongest
[11:10] one we've ever recorded at 9:02
[11:12] millibars. It did weaken a little bit as
[11:14] it came ashore simply because it was so
[11:17] strong when it was out there over the
[11:18] water. You can see the path was just up
[11:21] to the east of New Orleans. By the way,
[11:22] our our forecast track here at Acue
[11:24] Weather had a sixmile error on the storm
[11:28] coming east of New Orleans. We progged
[11:29] it over. We we forecast it over to 895.
[11:32] It actually got to 89.6 West New
[11:34] Orleans. Is it not 90.2? Yes.
[11:37] >> And as And as we look at this track
[11:38] right now, where is it going? We know
[11:40] when it came ashore when it was still in
[11:42] the Gulf, it was a category 5. It came
[11:44] ashore at category 4. And now I
[11:46] understand it's a category one. Where
[11:48] does it go from here? It looks like it's
[11:49] like the effects are going pretty far
[11:51] north.
[11:51] >> Well, yes, this is going to break
[11:53] pressure and wind records all the way up
[11:54] into the Ohio Valley here. What I did
[11:56] want to point out though for the
[11:58] education of our audiences, the perfect
[12:01] track for New Orleans comes from the
[12:03] southeast. It actually happened in 1947.
[12:06] And you see when that happens, the storm
[12:08] surge gets pushed straight in. This
[12:10] particular situation, the storm surge
[12:12] get directed more at Mississippi. The
[12:14] fear was back into Lake Pon Train than
[12:16] out of the north. Now getting to the
[12:18] future path of this storm. Let's take a
[12:19] look at the radar and you can see the
[12:21] band of heavy showers and thunderstorms
[12:23] pushing up to the north. the storm
[12:25] continuing its way up to the
[12:26] northnortheast and it's making it, you
[12:28] know, it's pointing which way it wants
[12:30] to go for you up in there. And there
[12:31] goes the effects all the way Tuesday and
[12:33] Wednesday up into the Great Lakes and
[12:36] into the northeastern part of the United
[12:37] States. Very warm tropical air up into
[12:39] the eastern part of the United States.
[12:41] The real fight zone back in here where
[12:43] we're going to see heavy rain. There is
[12:45] a sort of a silver lining to this cloud.
[12:48] There's no cold air around. Now, you may
[12:50] say to yourself, what does that have to
[12:51] do with anything? Well, the colder the
[12:53] air is on the western side of these
[12:55] storms, the more the clash occurs
[12:57] because of all the warm, humid air and
[12:59] the heavier the rainfall. So, while
[13:00] there is going to be heavy to excessive
[13:02] rainfalls, it won't be like Floyd back
[13:05] in 1999 where there was record cold
[13:08] coming into the storm and forcing
[13:10] excessive rainfalls in the western side
[13:12] of the storm in a widespread fashion.
[13:14] This will have damage. This will have
[13:15] tornadoes. It will have wind. People up
[13:18] in Cincinnati and southern Ohio be
[13:19] saying, "Wow, it's really windy here for
[13:21] a storm." Can I ask you about the
[13:23] tornadoes? Have we seen evidence that
[13:24] there are tornadoes which are spinning
[13:25] off of the storm already?
[13:27] >> Well, there already have been some
[13:28] tornadoes reported. But here's what
[13:30] happens. As the storm gets further
[13:31] inland, drier air gets entrained into
[13:34] the tornadoes or excuse me into the
[13:36] hurricane circulation at different
[13:38] levels. When you get that drier air and
[13:40] you have a discontinuous
[13:42] uh weakening of the storm, it weakens
[13:44] quicker in the low levels in the upper
[13:46] levels. It creates that wind shear that
[13:48] causes tornadic activity to occur.
[13:50] However, there is one interesting thing.
[13:52] They like to occur more when the storms
[13:54] come up east of the Appalachian because
[13:57] of the wind coming off the mountains
[13:59] accelerates this process I was talking
[14:01] about. So, this will have a significant
[14:03] effect with tornadoes maybe all the way
[14:05] up into Pennsylvania and on into New
[14:07] England, but not as bad as if we see,
[14:10] you know, with Ivan and Francis and some
[14:12] of these other storms that came up uh
[14:13] east of the Appalachian, Gene, if I
[14:15] remember correctly. All these things
[14:16] were busting one tornado record after
[14:18] another in there. And by the way, it's
[14:21] not the end of September. It's the end
[14:22] of August, right? People are, you know,
[14:24] Katrina the K storm here.
[14:26] >> You're thinking there's more thinking
[14:27] there's more to come.
[14:28] >> The p this pattern is uh we've got our
[14:31] hurricane tracking shoes on, believe me.
[14:33] >> Okay. Well, we'll be in touch with you
[14:34] then on that. Thank you very much, Joe
[14:36] Bardi.
[14:36] >> My pleasure.
[14:38] >> Now, a look at the damage done so far by
[14:40] Hurricane Katrina this afternoon.
[14:42] Jeffrey Brown spoke with two people in
[14:44] the hardest hit areas. First, Robert
[14:46] Laam, executive director of the
[14:48] Mississippi Emergency Management Agency.
[14:54] Mr. Laam, thanks for joining us. How
[14:56] extensive an area has been damaged?
[15:00] >> Well, I think it would be safe to say
[15:02] that that this is truly a catastrophic
[15:04] event um uh that could easily be
[15:06] compared to Camille and and that we're
[15:08] looking at significant damage and
[15:10] destruction across the entire Gulf Coast
[15:12] and several counties inland. And as the
[15:15] tropical storm continues to move inland,
[15:17] even as a category one hurricane will,
[15:20] you know, possibly cause um more damage
[15:23] inland to include power lines down uh
[15:25] damaged homes, businesses, and probably
[15:28] damage to the to the infrastructure.
[15:30] That's important. Uh so we still have
[15:32] several hours before uh we're going to
[15:35] know any idea about what the extent of
[15:38] the damage is, but certainly along the
[15:39] Gulf Coast, we know that it's extensive.
[15:41] Do you have any casualty reports yet?
[15:44] >> Right now, we have one report of a of a
[15:46] fatality in Warren County. Uh tree fell
[15:49] on a mobile home.
[15:51] >> Governor Haley Barber had worried
[15:53] earlier today about the people who had
[15:55] not evacuated the area. Do you know how
[15:57] many people that is?
[15:59] >> I have no idea. I know that just based
[16:02] on the traffic counts that we saw on the
[16:03] evacuation routes, they were not as high
[16:06] as I would hope they would be.
[16:07] Therefore, I have to assume that a uh
[16:10] lot of people did not evacuate. Uh so,
[16:12] you know, based on that, I have to say
[16:14] that, you know, there probably large
[16:15] numbers that did not evacuate.
[16:16] >> And what about in shelters? Do you know
[16:18] how many people there are there and the
[16:20] situation?
[16:20] >> Yeah, we have actually several thousand
[16:22] people in shelters, but we have adequate
[16:24] shelter space uh statewide that could
[16:27] house, you know, additional evacuees.
[16:29] But, you know, to this point, we're not
[16:30] looking at evacuation. That part is
[16:31] over. Now, it's just a matter of of our
[16:34] citizens remaining where they are and
[16:36] not leaving the shelter or their friends
[16:39] or relatives or wherever they may be
[16:41] right now. They need to sit tight, do
[16:43] not attempt to get out on the highways.
[16:45] It is not safe uh to get on the highways
[16:47] and to travel anywhere at this time. Uh
[16:49] and that is this situation deteriorates
[16:52] inland. It could get worse in North
[16:54] Mississippi. Uh so people should just
[16:56] sit tight wherever they are right now,
[16:57] not risk getting out on the highways.
[16:59] It's very unsafe out there. tell us a
[17:01] little bit more about the structural
[17:03] damage that we know of so far on the in
[17:05] the coastal cities.
[17:06] >> Well, I can all I can tell you right now
[17:08] is because there is significant um you
[17:11] know winds still down there, we are able
[17:14] at this point to get out with search and
[17:16] rescue resources in Jackson County and
[17:18] Harrison County to start trying to
[17:20] rescue some of these people that have
[17:22] been identified as being trapped. We do
[17:24] know we have extensive damage to most
[17:26] all of the hospitals on the coast and
[17:28] suspect there'll be major damage to
[17:30] critical infrastructure and certainly
[17:32] homes and businesses as well.
[17:34] >> And do you know whether some of these
[17:35] cities are still underwater?
[17:37] >> Uh absolutely. I mean we're talking
[17:39] about it taking as as much as 6 hours
[17:41] for the storm surge that came in. Uh
[17:44] some measured 20 to 22 feet, maybe even
[17:47] 26 feet that it could take 6 hours uh
[17:50] for those storm waters to recede. Now, I
[17:53] know you said you're trying to get
[17:54] emergency people in. How quickly do you
[17:57] think that will happen and what kind of
[17:58] system do you have in place to do it?
[18:00] >> Well, I think that that the time it will
[18:02] take to get those search and rescue
[18:04] resources uh in the affected areas will
[18:06] be minimal because we had already pre
[18:08] pre-staged many of those resources uh in
[18:11] strategic locations that could minimize
[18:13] the response time. We had also prepared
[18:15] our local communities for the
[18:17] possibility that initial search and
[18:19] rescue would be something that would
[18:20] fall on their back. Uh but we have
[18:22] adequate resources that have been
[18:24] brought in from other parts of the
[18:26] state. We have uh search and rescue
[18:28] resources from FEMA as well as the
[18:31] National Guard, the Coast Guard. Every
[18:33] asset that you can imagine uh in this
[18:35] nation is is prepared to respond and get
[18:38] into the affected area to ensure that we
[18:39] have a a swift search and rescue
[18:41] mission.
[18:42] >> And is there any estimate at this point
[18:43] on when you'd be able to let people come
[18:45] back into the area?
[18:47] >> Absolutely not. I I have no idea when
[18:49] that may be, but I think the word is
[18:51] that that our citizens should not even
[18:53] attempt to leave where they are right
[18:56] now and return to the affected area even
[18:58] when the weather clears and improves. Uh
[19:01] rest, you know, access to the affected
[19:03] area will be restricted. Uh people just
[19:06] need to stay where they are because they
[19:07] will not be allowed to enter the area
[19:09] that where the where they live uh until
[19:12] we're sure it's safe to do so. I suppose
[19:14] though with power outages, you'd have
[19:15] trouble even communicating that message
[19:17] to people.
[19:18] >> Absolutely. But we're also, you know,
[19:20] using every outlet that the media has.
[19:22] We're also making sure that we get that
[19:25] word to our shelter so they can pass
[19:27] that on to the evacuees that are
[19:28] sheltered there. They just need to stay
[19:30] there. Do not try to return to the
[19:32] affected area.
[19:33] >> All right, Robert Laam of the
[19:34] Mississippi Emergency Management Agency.
[19:36] Thank you very much.
[19:37] >> Thank you very much.
[19:38] >> Now, a report on the situation in New
[19:40] Orleans. For that, I'm joined on the
[19:41] phone by Peter Oriski of the Washington
[19:44] Post. Peter, many had worried that this
[19:46] storm could destroy the city. How
[19:48] extensive was the damage?
[19:50] >> I don't have my hands on any uh precise
[19:53] figures, and I'm not sure that there are
[19:54] any out there yet, but certainly wasn't
[19:56] the storm that destroyed New Orleans.
[19:58] It's New Orleans, downtown New Orleans,
[20:00] as I walk through today. Um there's a
[20:03] lot of repair work to be done. There's
[20:04] several downtown highrises that are
[20:07] windowless,
[20:09] but it's it wasn't the kind of uh end of
[20:12] the century uh storm that everyone had
[20:14] predicted.
[20:15] >> What kind of structural damage are you
[20:17] seeing?
[20:19] >> The the most striking damage was in the
[20:21] Hyatt Regency uh which is in the
[20:24] downtown. And it was a place where lots
[20:25] of people had for years ridden out the
[20:29] the hurricanes in New Orleans because
[20:31] they do this have this thing they call
[20:34] vertical evacuation in which they get up
[20:37] because the big fear here is water. Of
[20:39] course, the problem this time was that
[20:41] the windows in the Hyatt Regency blew
[20:43] out and they had to evacuate those
[20:45] guests to uh ballrooms inside the hotel.
[20:50] >> And what about the flooding situation?
[20:51] Are there parts of the city that are
[20:53] underwater? Is it easy to get around?
[20:56] >> It's very difficult to get around. Uh
[20:59] there the flooding is it's here and
[21:01] there, but it's where where it is, it's
[21:03] one or two feet, and that's difficult
[21:05] for uh even, you know, high riding
[21:08] pickup trucks to get through. As we
[21:10] learned, it's not the kind of flooding
[21:12] that they had feared, but it's still
[21:14] enough to make things a mess.
[21:16] >> Is there any uh determination of
[21:18] casualties at this point?
[21:21] I've asked that and the answer that I've
[21:24] gotten back from some of the local
[21:26] emergency people is it's too early to
[21:27] tell. They don't have any to report, the
[21:30] ones that I've spoken with, but they
[21:33] haven't finished their rescue missions
[21:35] either.
[21:36] >> Early in the day, the mayor talked about
[21:38] as many as 20 buildings that had
[21:40] collapsed. Have you heard any more about
[21:42] that?
[21:43] >> I have not heard anything more about
[21:45] that. The buildings that I saw in the
[21:48] downtown, you could see that there were
[21:50] some old buildings that uh looked like
[21:53] they had been in the state in a state of
[21:55] collapse already that were already
[21:57] falling down. Those are now um
[22:01] already falling down. But, you know,
[22:03] most of the habitable buildings don't
[22:06] look to me, certainly in downtown New
[22:08] Orleans, like they're falling down.
[22:10] There was a lot of talk of course about
[22:12] the leveies that surround the city,
[22:14] whether they would be overrun, whether
[22:15] they would hold up. What's the situation
[22:17] with those?
[22:18] >> Substantial success. There um are
[22:22] numerous reports of problems here and
[22:24] there, but had there been the kind of uh
[22:28] levy breaks that they or uh that they
[22:31] had feared, the French Quarter would be
[22:33] underwater. And right now, it's you can
[22:35] walk down portions of the sidewalk.
[22:38] We have heard reports of as many as
[22:40] 40,000 homes flooded in the area just
[22:43] east of New Orleans. Do you know
[22:44] anything about that?
[22:46] >> No, I'm in New Orleans and it's hard
[22:48] enough getting information out of uh in
[22:51] New Orleans itself given how difficult
[22:53] it is to get around. People, even some
[22:55] of the emergency people don't know
[22:56] what's going on, you know, a couple
[22:58] miles away.
[22:59] >> Well, that was my next question about
[23:00] the emergency people. Are they able to
[23:03] get into neighborhoods? Are they able to
[23:05] get at anything at this point? Sure they
[23:07] are. And they have um some of the state
[23:10] emergency people have uh some 12 boats
[23:13] out there looking for people in
[23:15] difficult to uh get to areas um areas
[23:19] that I presume ordinarily you could
[23:21] drive to but are now underwater.
[23:23] >> Now you mentioned the Super Dome. We've
[23:25] heard a lot about the n the people uh
[23:26] sheltered there. Do you know how many
[23:28] people are there? And what about the
[23:30] reports of damage to it?
[23:32] There was substantial damage to the
[23:35] exterior of the roof. It it uh about
[23:38] half of the roof covering has flecked
[23:41] off. Uh just sort of peeled off in the
[23:43] heavy winds, but it didn't look to me as
[23:47] I went by today that there was any
[23:51] daylight peeking through or substantial
[23:53] amounts of daylight. Anyway,
[23:54] >> are there other shelters? Are are are
[23:56] you seeing people uh back out on the
[23:58] streets at this point? I was out just an
[24:02] about an hour ago and there were
[24:06] only a handful of people out there. Uh
[24:08] it's very difficult to to get by. A
[24:10] couple of the cars, including one of the
[24:12] ones that I was traveling with, uh got
[24:15] flat tires because of the debris on the
[24:17] road and the others stall out in the um
[24:20] in the in the one or two feet of water
[24:22] that they have. And after that huge
[24:24] evacuation, are officials talking yet
[24:26] about when they're going to let all
[24:27] those people back into the city?
[24:30] >> They they haven't said yet. Only they've
[24:32] only said we don't want them back yet.
[24:34] It's uh it's too much of a mess here.
[24:37] >> All right, Peter Oriski of the
[24:39] Washington Post. Thank you very much.
[24:40] >> Sure.
[24:42] >> Still to come on the NewsHour tonight,
[24:44] the new Iraqi Constitution and Senator
[24:46] Patrick Ley.
[24:57] Iraq's draft constitution. Ray Suarez
[25:00] has the story.
[25:05] >> Sunnis spilled into the streets of
[25:07] Saddam Hussein's hometown today and
[25:10] denounced Iraq's draft constitution.
[25:14] RESIDENTS
[25:17] of Salahadin province in Toree along
[25:20] with its districts and suburbs and all
[25:22] honest Iraqis fully reject the
[25:25] constitution.
[25:27] Many Sunnis boycotted the January
[25:29] election, reducing their initial
[25:31] representation in the constitutional
[25:33] process until the US pressed for more
[25:35] Sunni input in drafting this
[25:37] constitution.
[25:40] Now they're protesting the way it was
[25:42] drafted and the way the stronger and
[25:44] larger Shiite and Kurdish groups pushed
[25:46] the draft document through.
[25:48] Anti-constitution forces have even
[25:50] gained the unlikely support of Shiite
[25:52] cleric Muktada al-Sader. But the head of
[25:55] the drafting committee, a Shiite,
[25:57] painted a positive picture of the
[25:59] process.
[26:00] In my view and in the view of many other
[26:03] members of the drafting committee, this
[26:05] constitution represents a very advanced
[26:07] experience in the region and a marvelous
[26:10] experience for the Iraqi people.
[26:13] >> On Sunday, smiling negotiators posed for
[26:16] the cameras just before signing the
[26:18] draft constitution. The Iraqi president
[26:20] Jalal Talibani occurred said the move
[26:23] meant the October 15th referendum would
[26:25] go ahead as planned.
[26:28] The constitution is left to our people
[26:30] to approve or reject it. I hope that our
[26:32] people will accept it despite some
[26:34] flaws. But Sunni negotiators soundly
[26:37] rejected it and did not endorse the
[26:39] document.
[26:42] >> We therefore declare our rejection of
[26:44] the paragraphs in the draft on which we
[26:46] did not reach consensus which would
[26:48] render the draft illegitimate.
[26:52] President Bush praised and backed the
[26:54] Iraqis work. Instead of using guns to
[26:57] decide the fate of the future, Iraqis
[27:00] from all aspects of their society came
[27:02] together and wrote a constitution.
[27:05] This constitution is one that honors
[27:07] women's rights and freedom of religion.
[27:16] Not everybody agreed with it,
[27:19] but now the Iraqi people get to decide.
[27:23] They get to debate.
[27:25] They get to make the decision this fall
[27:29] as to whether or not that constitution
[27:32] will be the constitution that governs
[27:34] their society. But just last week, the
[27:37] Bush administration touted the
[27:38] importance of a consensus document.
[27:41] Here's Defense Secretary Rumsfeld.
[27:43] >> Anyone knows that the Constitution would
[27:45] be defeated if it stiffed any one of
[27:48] those three units.
[27:50] >> Sunnis could derail the draft
[27:52] constitution if they vote against it by
[27:54] twothirds in any three provinces.
[27:58] And for more on Iraq's constitutional
[28:00] wrangling and its outcome, we're joined
[28:02] by two Americans who were born in Iraq.
[28:04] Laith Al-Saud is a lecturer in social
[28:07] sciences at Harold Washington College in
[28:09] Chicago. Rend al-Raheim Frankie is
[28:11] executive director of the Iraq
[28:13] Foundation, which promotes democracy in
[28:15] Iraq. She served as Iraq's ambassador to
[28:17] the US last year under the country's
[28:19] first interim government. She returned
[28:21] last week from nearly three months in
[28:23] Iraq. Joining them is Spence Spencer,
[28:26] Washington director of the public
[28:27] international law and policy group, a
[28:30] nonprofit that promotes legal assistance
[28:33] to governments in transition. He spent
[28:36] two weeks in Iraq with in July advising
[28:39] the constitutional committee. Well,
[28:41] Ambassador, um, does it represent a
[28:44] victory for this young Iraqi government
[28:47] that they decided to just push on and
[28:49] wait for the Sunnis to join or not join
[28:51] later?
[28:52] >> Well, I think it's certainly an
[28:53] achievement. Um this constitution has
[28:56] been uh a process that has tried to
[29:01] bring everybody together under one
[29:03] banner and it was done under great
[29:05] pressure. It was a sort of a political
[29:07] pact amongst groups that had to build
[29:10] trust amongst themselves and had to talk
[29:12] about extremely important and very
[29:14] difficult problems. So I think the fact
[29:16] that we have a text is an enormous
[29:18] achievement. they decided to present it
[29:21] to the national assembly even though
[29:23] there isn't 100% consensus but we are
[29:26] already beyond the deadline and
[29:28] therefore I think it was the right
[29:30] decision to give it to the national
[29:31] assembly and then we have a referendum
[29:33] in October
[29:34] >> leth aloud an enormous achievement
[29:37] >> no I wouldn't say so uh the
[29:40] constitutional committee broke the law
[29:41] several times they were unable to
[29:43] achieve consensus although this was the
[29:45] guarantee of the constitutional
[29:47] committee when it became a commission
[29:49] and brought the so-called Sunni
[29:51] community within the process. We have to
[29:54] understand that the role of Z Khalil Zad
[29:57] was rather destructive in this case. The
[30:00] ubiquitous presence of him in all in
[30:02] every and all facet of this
[30:03] constitutional drafting process. Um the
[30:07] role of the United States is exactly
[30:09] what is at issue in Iraqi politics. And
[30:12] for Zam Khalil Zad to have such an
[30:14] ubiquitous presence exacerbated the very
[30:17] issue that the so-called Sunni community
[30:19] as well as those opposed to the US
[30:22] presence uh in Iraq uh are making
[30:26] >> well Spence Spencer you were an American
[30:28] who was uh closely watching the process
[30:31] advising the process. Do you agree with
[30:32] Leth aloud that there was a problem with
[30:34] the level of American participation? I
[30:36] think the American presence there is so
[30:38] broad and deep that it's difficult to
[30:40] avoid uh uh not speaking with Americans
[30:43] on the topic. I can speak from my own
[30:45] experience that we were very strongly
[30:47] cautioned to uh make sure that the
[30:50] technical assistance that we provided
[30:51] was good and technical only and to leave
[30:54] the drafting and the decision-m to the
[30:55] Iraqis themselves.
[30:56] >> Well, you've been a part of processes
[30:58] like these in other countries. Uh, have
[31:01] there been times when parties have just
[31:03] had to sort of agree to permanently
[31:05] disagree and move on to accomplish what
[31:07] they could?
[31:08] >> Exactly. And a lot of this happens in
[31:10] prior conflicts that I've worked on. Uh,
[31:12] a lot of people have just been tired of
[31:14] war and a lot of people have have been
[31:16] wanting a settlement and I think in this
[31:17] case uh uh the consensus as Secretary
[31:21] Rumsfeld said was was simply not there
[31:23] to uh have a more universal uh agreement
[31:26] that can bring Iraq together. But
[31:27] Secretary Rumsfeld also said that this
[31:29] thing could fall apart if one of the
[31:31] three major constituent groups feel
[31:33] they're quote stiffed.
[31:34] >> That's why I would label this an
[31:36] achievement. Uh it's an achievement
[31:38] today, but we have to see how it all
[31:39] turns out on October 15th.
[31:41] >> Well, let's talk about October 15th,
[31:44] Ambassador. Can can this be stopped by
[31:46] at the ballot box? Uh just to go back to
[31:48] what Secretary Rams said, the
[31:50] transitional administrative law under
[31:52] which we are now living says that if
[31:55] three governorates
[31:58] uh turn down the constitution by a 2/3
[32:01] vote in each then this constitution is
[32:05] defeated. The question becomes a
[32:07] question of numbers. Can any group or
[32:11] can a number of groups combined muster a
[32:14] 2/3 majority in three governorates? Um,
[32:20] >> how do you answer that question?
[32:21] >> I don't know the answer to that. My gut
[32:23] feeling and I, you know, it's not good
[32:25] to to predict. My gut feeling is it's
[32:28] going to be very difficult. A lot of
[32:30] groups are going to have to get together
[32:32] and are going to have to vote uh in a
[32:35] block. And that's going to be a little
[32:37] difficult. It could be done. I'm not
[32:38] saying it can't, but I think it's
[32:39] unlikely. Uh I think a a bigger question
[32:43] and a more interesting question is what
[32:45] happens if this constitution passes but
[32:48] passes with a marginal
[32:52] uh vote. In other words, it only gets
[32:53] 53% or 54% of the national vote and
[32:58] therefore 46 people vote no for it
[33:00] across the board across the country. Uh
[33:03] that is going to be more of a problem.
[33:06] uh it'll the constitution will be in
[33:09] effect but it will mean that there is a
[33:12] substantial proportion of the population
[33:14] that is not entirely satisfied with the
[33:16] constitution.
[33:16] >> Well lethal saw let me get a quick read
[33:18] from you on both those questions. First
[33:20] given the structure of the October 15th
[33:22] vote is it possible for uh the Sunnis
[33:25] who are disaffected plus perhaps
[33:27] supporters of Mktata also to stop the
[33:30] constitution?
[33:31] >> Yes, I agree. I have to respectfully
[33:33] disagree with the ambassador. I uh
[33:36] there's obviously if you look at some of
[33:37] the protests that took place in Kirkuk,
[33:40] we have followers of Mktar joining the
[33:43] so-called Sunni community in denouncing
[33:46] this constitution and throughout the
[33:48] country. We well know that Mktar Sad has
[33:50] millions of followers, not to mention
[33:52] possibly millions of followers in
[33:53] Baghdad itself. So with the joining of
[33:55] Mktar and other prominent Shiats in
[33:58] Iraq, we can certainly see the
[34:00] possibility of this constitution being
[34:02] voted down in October. And in fact, I
[34:04] would argue that it has a strong ch
[34:05] strong chance of not passing the
[34:07] referendum in October.
[34:08] >> Well, let me get a quick response to the
[34:09] ambassador's other point that there's
[34:11] also threat in the idea of it passing
[34:13] narrowly that there will be uh in the
[34:16] country a large block of people who
[34:17] don't want it and yet it becomes the law
[34:19] of the land despite that.
[34:22] >> Well, if we consider that
[34:25] what we have here is a matter of
[34:26] convenience for those who are opposed to
[34:28] this process. On the one hand, the
[34:31] constitutional committee violated the
[34:32] TAL by not requesting an extension by
[34:36] August 1st. On the other hand, we had
[34:38] some of the fumblings that took place in
[34:40] the past two weeks in which the world
[34:41] was able to witness the inability of the
[34:44] constitutional committee to reach a
[34:45] consensus. So the opposite the
[34:47] opposition is in a place of convenience.
[34:50] On the one hand, it can advocate, it can
[34:52] campaign against voting against this
[34:54] constitution October. If it fails to
[34:58] achieve its ends, it can always invoke
[35:00] that this constitutional progress was
[35:02] illegal or illegitimate because of the
[35:04] heavy-handed role of the United States.
[35:06] >> Spence Spencer, what's at risk here with
[35:08] with these various possible outcomes?
[35:10] Well, for certainly for the people of
[35:12] Iraq, uh a very uh prolongation of the
[35:15] violence and uh you know the the
[35:17] continued sort of stalling of any
[35:19] reconstruction for the country. I I I
[35:22] really would should stress that you know
[35:23] there people are looking not just at
[35:25] this constitutional process but also
[35:27] about electricity and water and uh basic
[35:31] uh infrastructure that has been denied
[35:32] these guys and you always want to put
[35:34] that in in in that sort of a context for
[35:36] the United States. uh just for example
[35:39] uh US forces are it's well known are are
[35:41] very stretched in Iraq and around the
[35:43] world and uh a rerunning of the uh
[35:46] national assembly elections in December
[35:47] would prolong US force levels for
[35:49] several months.
[35:50] >> Let's uh give people at home a look at
[35:52] some of the particular provisions in
[35:54] this draft constitution. In article two,
[35:57] it calls for Islam to be the official
[35:59] religion of the state and a basic source
[36:01] of legislation. Says that no law can
[36:03] contradict the undisputed rules of
[36:05] Islam. No law can contradict the
[36:07] principles of democracy and the Supreme
[36:10] Court will have a number of judges and
[36:11] experts in Islamic juristprudence. Uh
[36:15] some of these formulations, ambassador,
[36:18] seem purposefully vague, specific in
[36:20] some senses, vague in other ones. Who
[36:22] gets to say what's what is undisputed in
[36:25] Islam?
[36:25] >> Right. In fact, throughout the
[36:27] constitution, all the 154 articles of it
[36:31] uh are marked by u some ambiguity.
[36:36] And I think this is both a weakness of
[36:38] the constitution but also an opening a
[36:40] strength. Uh just as you read first of
[36:42] all Islam no laws will contradict the um
[36:46] basic tenants or of Islam but also not
[36:50] the principles of democracy. There are
[36:53] openings for everybody here and the
[36:56] question is who is going to make the
[36:58] better argument. Which law is going to
[37:01] prevail? Is it a law that is more
[37:03] Islamic or is it a law that is more
[37:05] democratic? I think the real battles
[37:07] about the constitution are going to
[37:10] start after October 15th. We are going
[37:13] to have uh fights to define what this
[37:17] constitution really means in terms of
[37:20] legislation and in terms of
[37:22] implementation. And I think you're going
[37:23] to see the lines drawn in terms of the
[37:26] political forces on the ground, in terms
[37:28] of the elections that are coming in
[37:30] December 15th in order to give much more
[37:32] focus and much more meaning to these
[37:35] ambiguous articles in the constitution.
[37:37] This ambiguity runs throughout the
[37:40] constitution. And it may be deliberate.
[37:42] It may be a question of trying to
[37:44] accommodate as many people as possible,
[37:46] as many views as possible. And
[37:48] therefore, we get this looseness, these
[37:49] cracks in the constitution. It depends
[37:52] on who puts their foot first in that
[37:54] crack.
[37:54] >> Lethal Sud one of the biggest Sunni
[37:56] complaints during the process was over
[37:58] the parts of the constitution regarding
[38:00] federalism says the federal system is
[38:03] made up of the capital regions and
[38:04] decentralized provinces. The governments
[38:06] of the regions have the right to
[38:08] practice legislative, executive and
[38:10] judicial powers and it specifically sets
[38:12] aside Kurdistan as one of those
[38:14] self-governing uh regions. Uh, is this a
[38:18] a poison pill for for the Sunni
[38:20] population?
[38:22] >> Well, it is to a great extent, but we
[38:24] have to go further than that and
[38:25] understand Iraqi society. Iraqi society
[38:28] is extremely integrated. There's a great
[38:30] deal of intermarriage between not only
[38:31] the Sunni and Shia Arab population, but
[38:34] also between the Kurds and the Arabs.
[38:36] So, it's there's a serious question as
[38:38] to whether federalism as they're talking
[38:40] about it is feasible to begin with.
[38:42] There's a million Kurds in Baghdad.
[38:44] There tens of thousands of Sunni and
[38:45] Basra. I also, if I may, would like to
[38:48] address the issue about the uh
[38:50] attribution of an Islamic state or the
[38:53] provisions within the constitution which
[38:54] call upon Islamic law and the
[38:56] recognition and respect of Islamic law.
[38:58] >> Briefly, please.
[38:59] >> I have a sure. I have a problem with
[39:02] this demarcation between Islam and
[39:04] democracy. I don't think it's been made
[39:05] clear by any analysts, let alone the
[39:08] western uh legal advisers who went to
[39:10] Iraq, what they mean by Islam or what
[39:13] they mean by democracy. Whenever we
[39:15] invoke these abstract concepts, there's
[39:17] always going to be some obscurity.
[39:19] >> Well, we have until October 15th to uh
[39:22] to work it out. Spence Spencer, does
[39:24] this look like a document that's that's
[39:25] got some chance?
[39:27] >> It certainly has some chance. I think
[39:29] what uh what depends between now and
[39:31] October 15th is the outreach that is
[39:34] going to be required uh of all of the
[39:36] members of the Iraqi National Assembly.
[39:37] One of the things that the transitional
[39:39] administrative law uh called for was
[39:41] that the constitution would be drafted
[39:43] in consultation with the Iraqi people.
[39:45] Uh and uh a lot of the National Assembly
[39:48] members that I I spoke to were all
[39:49] saying, you know, we missed this chance.
[39:51] We only had two months to draft it. Uh
[39:53] we hopefully can get out into the
[39:55] streets and uh and do something. And
[39:56] that's going to be a real serious
[39:58] challenge for these guys.
[39:59] >> Spencer, guest. Thanks a lot.
[40:00] >> Thank you.
[40:10] Finally tonight, a newsmaker interview
[40:12] with another key player in the upcoming
[40:14] Supreme Court confirmation hearings.
[40:16] Last week, I talked with Senate
[40:18] Judiciary Committee Chairman Arlland
[40:19] Spectre. This afternoon, I sat down with
[40:21] his minority party counterpart, part
[40:24] Vermont Democrat Patrick Ley.
[40:29] >> Supreme Court nominee John G. Roberts
[40:31] and Senator Patrick Lehey were all
[40:33] smiles today.
[40:35] >> But in the weeks since their first
[40:37] meeting, Lehey, the senior Democrat on
[40:39] the Senate Judiciary Committee, has
[40:41] become sharply critical of President
[40:43] Bush's first high court nominee, using
[40:46] words like radical and right-wing to
[40:48] characterize Robert's writings. As he
[40:51] prepares for next week's hearings, Ley
[40:53] has already become caught between two
[40:56] polls within his party. The anti-roberts
[40:59] liberals and the centrist Democrats who
[41:01] have signaled they could support the
[41:03] president's nominee.
[41:05] >> In 31 years in Washington, Ley has
[41:07] become closely identified with judicial
[41:10] battles. In 1991, he grilled high court
[41:13] nominee Clarence Thomas about his view
[41:16] of Ro v. Wade. Have you ever private
[41:19] gatherings otherwise dis uh stated
[41:22] whether you felt that it was properly
[41:24] decided or not
[41:33] senator um in trying to recall and
[41:36] reflect on that I I um don't recollect
[41:39] uh commenting one way or the other um
[41:42] there were again debates about it in
[41:44] various places but uh I generally did
[41:46] not participy ipates.
[41:49] I don't remember or recall
[41:50] participating, Senator.
[41:53] >> So, you don't ever recall stating
[41:55] whether you thought it was properly
[41:56] decided or not?
[42:01] >> I can't recall saying one way or the
[42:03] other, Senator. Well, with all due
[42:06] respect, judge, I have some difficulty
[42:09] with your answer uh that somehow this is
[42:15] been so far removed from your
[42:17] discussions or feelings during the year
[42:19] since it was decided while you were in
[42:21] law school.
[42:22] >> Ley, 65 years old and in his sixth term,
[42:25] is the only Senate Democrat ever elected
[42:27] from Vermont. Like committee chairman
[42:29] Arlland Spectre, he served as a state
[42:31] prosecutor before arriving in
[42:34] Washington.
[42:35] >> We spoke to him today in the Senate's
[42:37] historic Russell caucus room where the
[42:39] Roberts hearings are scheduled to begin
[42:41] next week.
[42:42] >> Senator Lehey, welcome.
[42:44] >> Thank you.
[42:44] >> You met today with Judge Roberts. How
[42:47] did that go?
[42:48] >> Well, it's the second meeting we've had,
[42:50] actually the second meeting on this
[42:51] nomination. Obviously, we met before
[42:53] when he was up for the Court of Appeals.
[42:56] I I found it very interesting meeting as
[42:59] we all know he's a very pleasant person
[43:02] uh very articulate and and obviously
[43:05] very knowledgeable as a lawyer. I uh
[43:08] three things of course those of us who
[43:11] are lawyers and find very uh you know
[43:15] very interesting and I I I enjoyed the
[43:19] discussion with him.
[43:20] >> Did you get to ask him any specific
[43:21] questions that you're willing to talk to
[43:23] us about?
[43:23] >> Well, I asked a few questions. I uh but
[43:27] they're more of a general nature. I I
[43:29] did express my concern that the White
[43:32] House is blocking the release of some of
[43:34] the positions he took as a political
[43:38] appointee
[43:40] in the solicitor's general's office. And
[43:42] my disappointment was because those
[43:44] would show not uh whether he's a good
[43:47] lawyer or not. We'll all u we all know
[43:51] he's a good lawyer. We all know that if
[43:53] he has a client that says,
[43:56] "Here's what my case is," he'll argue it
[43:58] very, very well. He could argue for a
[44:03] person or against a person depending
[44:04] upon who his client is. But in the
[44:07] solicitor's general's office, that's
[44:09] where they make a determination what
[44:11] position the United States will take and
[44:14] which cases they will take to make a
[44:17] case. Those are the areas I'd like to
[44:20] see. Did he indicate to you that he
[44:22] might be interested in having those
[44:23] documents released?
[44:24] >> I think he feels constrained by what the
[44:26] White House has uh said and the White
[44:28] House won't let them won't uh bring them
[44:31] forward. I'm also concerned about some
[44:34] documents that were lost. There's no
[44:36] fault of his, but of course we were
[44:38] supposed to get the documents from the
[44:40] uh Reagan library. At the last minute,
[44:43] the White House said, "No, no, no. you
[44:45] can only see see them after we see them
[44:48] even though they're going to become part
[44:49] of the uh public records anyway. And
[44:51] apparently some that were on affirmative
[44:54] action, the White House looked at them
[44:56] and suddenly they've disappeared. The
[44:59] White House said they gave them back and
[45:00] they'd be glad to tell us their analysis
[45:03] of what's in it. Uh coming from the
[45:06] Ronald Reagan library, I take the Reagan
[45:08] position. Trust but verify. I want to
[45:11] see the original documents. In the time
[45:13] since you met him on this nomination,
[45:15] first in July 20th and today, you've
[45:17] said some increasingly tough things
[45:19] about him. And if you don't mind, I'd
[45:21] like to actually read them to you.
[45:22] >> Sure.
[45:23] >> You said, as you well know,
[45:25] >> about these papers, those papers that we
[45:27] have received paint a picture of John
[45:29] Roberts as an eager and aggressive
[45:31] advocate of policies that are deeply
[45:33] tinged with the ideology of the far
[45:35] rightwing of his party then and now. In
[45:38] influential White House and Department
[45:39] of Justice positions, John Roberts
[45:41] expressed views that were among the most
[45:42] radical being offered by a cadre intent
[45:45] on reversing decades of policies on
[45:48] civil rights, voting rights, women's
[45:49] rights, privacy, and access to justice.
[45:52] That's tough talk, Senator.
[45:54] >> It's fairly tough, especially we
[45:56] Vermoners tend to say things in somewhat
[45:59] more quiet way. But I uh I meant it and
[46:01] I I talked to him about that. I actually
[46:03] talked about the uh virtually what you
[46:07] just read and I was asking to what
[46:10] extent is the John Roberts a 27 year old
[46:13] 28 29 30 year old John Roberts uh eager
[46:17] accolate in the Reagan administration
[46:22] how does that person relate to the judge
[46:24] Roberts today and the reason I asked him
[46:28] that question I said my feeling about
[46:30] anybody who's going to be a federal
[46:32] judge especially a Supreme Court judge.
[46:35] I want to know before I vote for that
[46:37] person, could I feel safe if my case was
[46:41] before them or your case or the person
[46:45] two doors down from here, their case?
[46:47] Would they have a case that would be
[46:50] heard on the merits or would it be
[46:52] predetermined?
[46:54] Now, the some of the writings you saw
[46:57] there gave the impression of somebody
[46:58] who predetermined these things. I want
[47:01] to know that they he would sit as a
[47:03] judge with an open mind. B make up his
[47:08] mind. Now, is he going to be a
[47:10] conservative jurist? Sure. I voted for a
[47:13] lot of conservative jurors, but I voted
[47:15] for these jurists on the assumption they
[47:18] were people who would give you a fair
[47:20] shake and would not predetermine a case.
[47:22] >> When you said that he would you had
[47:24] concerns about his stand on civil
[47:26] rights, what particularly are you
[47:27] talking about? Well, I I I want to
[47:29] understand that he really cares about
[47:33] affirmative action, that cares about
[47:34] equality. I want to make sure he
[47:37] understands there's a lot of
[47:38] discrimination in the United States
[47:40] today. We have laws that try to redress
[47:43] that. And is he going to be open to the
[47:46] application of those laws? When you
[47:48] think about the things that you know
[47:49] that he has written and the things that
[47:50] you don't know about that the White
[47:52] House has not been willing to uh
[47:54] release, do you think that someone is
[47:56] trying to hide something from you?
[47:58] >> Well, I I I worry about the things that
[48:00] suddenly get lost by the White House and
[48:02] maybe they'll turn up, maybe they won't.
[48:04] I'm not I'm not willing to just accept
[48:06] what they say about them. Uh I want to
[48:09] see what they say. But I think they do
[48:13] Judge Roberts a disservice
[48:16] by holding things back, especially those
[48:18] areas that reflect what his judgment of
[48:21] what the law should be. Not just what
[48:23] the law is, but what the law should be.
[48:25] They do him a disservice because then
[48:27] everybody speculates on what he would
[48:29] say. But then at the same time, that
[48:32] puts a heavier burden on us when a
[48:34] burden that we should try to carry to
[48:36] ask the question to find out who he is.
[48:38] And I don't think any senator should
[48:41] feel justified in automatically voting
[48:44] for him unless they're satisfied that
[48:47] person is going to reflect all of us.
[48:50] >> In previous judicial confirmation
[48:51] battles, you have urged the White House
[48:52] to to take the advice of the American
[48:54] Bar Association. The American Bar
[48:56] Association has said that Judge Roberts
[48:58] is wellqualified. Does that sway your
[49:00] thinking?
[49:01] >> It it uh is part of my thinking. I I
[49:05] wish they had waited to read all the
[49:07] things he said that the rest of us did,
[49:10] but uh no, I think that is I I think
[49:13] conversely, if they said he wasn't
[49:15] qualified, then that would hurt him a
[49:17] great deal. But I think everybody knows
[49:20] he's a brilliant judge. Everybody knows
[49:22] he's a brilliant lawyer. He's been a an
[49:25] extremely gifted um advocate before the
[49:28] Supreme Court.
[49:30] you as the ranking Democrat on this
[49:32] committee are probably the subject of a
[49:34] lot of competing emails, phone calls, uh
[49:36] pressure, shall we say, from
[49:38] >> I've heard you have you heard that
[49:39] centrist Democrats, liberal Democrats,
[49:42] interest groups, they all, I'm sure, are
[49:44] zeroing in on you. What kind of pressure
[49:46] are you feeling?
[49:48] >> Well, I'll talk to any senator who
[49:50] wants. I mean, I've always I've done
[49:52] this for 30 over 30 years in the Senate.
[49:54] I'd be glad to talk with any senator who
[49:56] wants to talk about I'm not meeting with
[49:58] interest groups of either the right or
[50:00] the left.
[50:00] >> Any senators trying to influence your
[50:02] vote?
[50:02] >> No. No. And um interestingly enough, you
[50:06] know, on other issues, senators will
[50:09] come and try obviously we got this
[50:11] appropriations bill coming up or an
[50:13] agriculture bill or whatever. And
[50:15] senators, as we should, will go around
[50:17] trying to get other senators to vote
[50:19] with you. No senator has suggested to me
[50:22] how to vote one way or the other.
[50:24] >> You and Senator Spectre have a famously
[50:26] cordial relationship. Does uh preparing
[50:29] for a hearing like this put any
[50:30] pressure, any tension on that?
[50:32] >> No. I mean, we often have times we vote
[50:34] differently. We often have times we take
[50:36] even within the judiciary committee
[50:38] different views on things, but we have a
[50:40] great deal of respect for each other and
[50:42] each other's ability. And I think you
[50:43] have that old prosecutor's bond where we
[50:46] can usually work things out. What should
[50:48] Americans who are watching these
[50:50] hearings next week be listening for?
[50:53] >> They should listen to those senators who
[50:54] actually ask questions. And those who
[50:57] want to just simply give a speech
[51:00] uh either for or against Judge Roberts
[51:04] without asking questions. Frankly, I'd
[51:07] ignore them. I don't care which party
[51:08] they belong to. Listen to those asking
[51:10] questions and then see if those
[51:12] questions give you a view of a
[51:15] justice who could
[51:18] barely hear your case. No matter who you
[51:21] are in America, do you feel satisfied
[51:24] this man could hear a case involving me?
[51:29] If you're satisfied with that, then
[51:30] you've got a good justice. If you're not
[51:33] satisfied with that, you have reason for
[51:35] concern. And what will you be listening
[51:37] for as he answers those questions?
[51:39] >> Basically the same thing. Uh you know
[51:42] there's only 101 people get a say in
[51:44] this. The president of course most
[51:46] importantly in making the nomination and
[51:48] then the 100 senators. We have to stand
[51:51] in the shoes of 280 million Americans. I
[51:54] think some of my fellow senators
[51:55] sometimes don't realize the
[51:57] responsibility that is. Uh it's not a
[52:00] responsibility to jump to an instant
[52:02] conclusion. It's a responsibility to
[52:03] take your time, really pay attention
[52:06] because we're representing all 280
[52:08] million Americans and I want to make
[52:10] sure at the when I vote and at this
[52:14] moment I have absolutely no idea how I
[52:16] will vote, but I want to know when I
[52:18] vote. I feel I've carried that
[52:20] responsibility.
[52:21] >> In all of the years that you've been
[52:22] following this process and been involved
[52:24] in it, what would what have you learned
[52:26] from past Supreme Court nomination
[52:28] processes that you would apply to this
[52:30] one?
[52:31] I've learned it is wise to wait to make
[52:34] up your mind. I I look at the
[52:38] both the right and the left cite the
[52:39] case of Robert Borick
[52:42] without
[52:44] appearing as though they were actually
[52:45] at the hearing before the Borc hearing
[52:49] began. I suspect they had a majority if
[52:52] not all of the members of the uh
[52:55] judiciary committee were going to vote
[52:56] for him. Now, as that hearing went on
[53:00] and as as the answers to his questions
[53:03] came out,
[53:04] >> some of them actually rather strange
[53:07] answers.
[53:08] >> You could see the change within the
[53:11] within the committee
[53:12] >> and
[53:14] ultimately the committee voted against
[53:15] him. Ultimately, the Senate Republicans
[53:17] and Democrats voted against him, but
[53:21] also the American public watching the
[53:23] hearing. You could tell from the calls
[53:25] to the offices to all of us, Republicans
[53:27] and Democrats, that public opinion
[53:30] turned very strongly against him. So,
[53:32] the thing is, wait till you get in
[53:33] there. Who knew about Anita Hill before
[53:36] the uh before the hearing began? uh
[53:39] Sandra Day. Oconor when she was
[53:42] nominated there was a lot of concerns
[53:45] expressed by some of the liberal groups
[53:47] that well she's you know she's a
[53:49] conservative from Arizona conservative
[53:51] legislator and all the vote on her was
[53:55] 99 to nothing. It was a very good vote.
[53:58] uh some of these same groups that were
[54:01] critical of her when she was first uh
[54:04] nominated are now the ones who say,
[54:06] "Boy, we need another justice just like
[54:09] Sandra Day. Oconor." Keep your powder
[54:12] dry.
[54:13] >> Senator Ley, thank you.
[54:14] >> It's good to be with you
[54:24] again. The other major developments of
[54:25] the day, Hurricane Katrina slammed into
[54:28] the Gulf Coast. The brunt of it missed
[54:30] New Orleans, but officials reported
[54:32] heavy damage from Louisiana to the
[54:34] Florida panhandle. In Iraq, thousands of
[54:37] Sunni,
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[56:08] John kept rolling over to see if the
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[56:11] "Is the money going to change them?"
[56:15] Uh,
[56:19] >> I'm sure some
[56:21] >> Yes, I
[56:24] don't think he's going to change us a
[56:26] lot.
[56:27] >> I'm still going to dress like this.
[56:29] >> There you go.
[56:30] >> Yeah, absolutely. The Bentleys haven't
[56:32] decided what to do with all their
[56:33] winnings yet, but they uh do plan to go
[56:35] relax with the coast for a few days and
[56:36] take their their nephew Steve with them.
[56:38] >> Oh, and that's you, Steve.
[56:40] >> That would be me.
[56:41] >> I think they're in shock. They probably
[56:43] are. Thanks for watching, folks. That
[56:45] was a great
[56:47] >> Thank you for watching the Northwest
[56:49] News Leader. For news online, go to
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