Face the Nation (CBS) - 2008-12-28
Channel: malgent
Transcript
Language: English (original, YouTube automatic captions)
[0:00] Today on Face the Nation, Obama senior
[0:02] advisor David Axelrod, Illinois
[0:04] Lieutenant Governor Pat Quinn, and Nobel
[0:07] Prize winning economist Paul Krugman.
[0:09] What does President-elect Obama think of
[0:12] the situation in Gaza, where Israeli
[0:14] airstrikes killed at least 225
[0:16] Palestinians? Does his new
[0:18] administration face a new Mideast crisis
[0:20] along with everything else? We'll ask
[0:22] his senior advisor, David Axelrod. Can
[0:25] Illinois legislators force Governor Rod
[0:27] Blagojevich out of office, and if so,
[0:30] how soon? We'll ask Lieutenant Governor
[0:32] Pat Quinn. And how long is this
[0:34] devastating recession going to last, and
[0:36] how deep will it go? We'll ask economist
[0:39] Paul Krugman. Axelrod, Quinn, and
[0:41] Krugman on Face the Nation.
[0:51] Face the Nation with Chief Washington
[0:53] Correspondent Bob Schieffer. And now,
[0:56] from Washington, substituting for Bob
[0:58] Schieffer, CBS News Correspondent Chip
[1:00] Reid. Joining us now from Chicago, David
[1:03] Axelrod, senior advisor to
[1:05] President-elect Obama. David, thank you
[1:07] for joining us.
[1:08] Great to be here. Thank you. Let's go
[1:10] with the headlines today. We've got to
[1:13] the news is just really difficult in
[1:16] Gaza right now. Nearly 300 killed in
[1:18] Israeli airstrikes.
[1:20] The Bush administration response so far
[1:22] has been to blame Hamas and to urge
[1:26] Israel
[1:27] to be very careful about civilian
[1:29] casualties. Now, I suspect if I ask you
[1:32] specifically what Barack Obama would do
[1:34] here, you'll you'll tell me that there's
[1:35] only one president at a time. So, let me
[1:37] ask you a slightly different question,
[1:39] which is
[1:41] do you anticipate that the Obama
[1:43] administration will be just as
[1:45] supportive of Israel as the Bush
[1:48] administration has been?
[1:50] Well, certainly the President-elect
[1:52] recognizes the special relationship
[1:54] between the United States and Israel.
[1:55] It's a it's a it's a it's an important
[1:57] bond, an important relationship. He's
[1:59] going to honor it.
[2:00] And he wants to be a constructive force
[2:02] in helping to bring about the peace and
[2:04] security that both the Israelis and the
[2:06] Palestinians
[2:08] want and deserve.
[2:10] And obviously this this
[2:13] this situation has become even more
[2:15] complicated in the last couple of days
[2:19] and weeks as Hamas began its shelling.
[2:21] Israel
[2:22] responded.
[2:24] But it's something that he's committed
[2:26] to. But do you think he will be equally
[2:28] as supportive of Israel as the Bush
[2:30] administration? I think he I think as I
[2:32] said, I think he recognizes that special
[2:34] relationship. He's going to work closely
[2:36] with Israelis. They're a great ally of
[2:39] ours, the most important ally in the
[2:40] region.
[2:42] And and and we're that is a fundamental
[2:47] principle from which
[2:49] he'll work. But
[2:52] he will do so
[2:53] in a way that um
[2:56] will promote the cause of peace and work
[2:57] closely with Israelis and Palestinians
[3:00] on that toward that objective.
[3:01] >> There are tanks massing on the border,
[3:03] Israeli tanks on the Gaza border as we
[3:06] speak. And they are calling up 6,500
[3:08] reserve soldiers
[3:10] for a possible land invasion. Would that
[3:13] change things because then it becomes an
[3:15] Obama administration problem. Obviously
[3:17] if they go into Gaza with a land
[3:19] invasion, that is something that's going
[3:21] to take some time.
[3:23] Would that change things and
[3:25] change how an Obama administration views
[3:28] Israel and would it also affect the
[3:30] entire agenda? Might they have to put
[3:32] other things off if that's problem
[3:34] number one on day one?
[3:36] Well, let me say we started this
[3:38] interview with you doing my part. So but
[3:40] I have to go back to that. The fact is
[3:42] that there is only one president at the
[3:44] time. There's only only one president
[3:45] can speak for America
[3:47] at a time. And that president now is
[3:49] George Bush.
[3:51] The president-elect was uh on the phone
[3:54] with Secretary Rice yesterday. He's
[3:55] monitoring the situation closely, but
[3:58] the Bush administration has to speak for
[4:00] America now, and it wouldn't be
[4:01] appropriate for me
[4:02] uh to uh opine on these matters. I will
[4:05] say the president You go ahead, Chip.
[4:07] >> No, you go ahead.
[4:09] The president elect was in Sderot last
[4:11] July
[4:12] uh uh in southern Israel, town that's
[4:15] taken uh the brunt of uh of the uh Hamas
[4:19] attacks, and he said then that uh uh
[4:21] when bombs are raining down on your
[4:23] citizens,
[4:24] uh there there is an an urge to respond
[4:27] and act and try and put an end to that.
[4:29] So,
[4:30] um
[4:30] you know, that's what he said then, and
[4:32] I think that's what he
[4:33] uh believes.
[4:34] >> When he talks to Secretary Rice, is he
[4:37] simply passively listening, or is he
[4:39] also offering an assessment?
[4:42] Well, I think they have a uh
[4:44] they have a good working relationship,
[4:46] and there's a a uh
[4:48] I think that uh the calls are are
[4:50] largely in the uh in the area of
[4:53] fact-finding for for him. I would hardly
[4:56] describe him as passive, uh but I think
[4:59] he wants to get a handle on the
[5:00] situation so that when he becomes
[5:02] president on January 20th, uh he has uh
[5:05] the advantage of all the facts and
[5:06] information leading up to that point.
[5:08] >> Last question on this topic. Hillary
[5:10] Clinton, of course, will be or is
[5:11] expected to be, so assuming she gets
[5:13] confirmed, the Secretary of State in the
[5:14] Obama administration. Is he talking is
[5:17] the president elect talking to her? Are
[5:19] the wheels moving within the Obama team
[5:21] on this? Well, he's been meeting with
[5:23] his national uh security team and
[5:25] consulting with them uh
[5:27] uh on a consistent basis. Uh one of the
[5:29] things that we feel good about is that
[5:31] we've got such a strong and experienced
[5:33] team, Senator Clinton as as Secretary of
[5:35] State, Secretary Gates staying on, and
[5:37] General Jones as the National Security
[5:39] Advisor who has vast experience uh in
[5:42] that region, and the president elect is
[5:44] in touch with all of them uh around uh
[5:47] this situation and other events. Okay,
[5:49] job number one when on January 20th
[5:52] is the stimulus package or the stimulus
[5:55] or the economic recovery plan as the
[5:57] Obama team likes to call it. Where does
[5:59] that stand right now? Is that
[6:01] aggressively being worked on Capitol
[6:03] Hill already and we're hearing numbers
[6:05] anywhere from $650 billion to a trillion
[6:07] dollars. Is there a number you can put
[6:09] on it?
[6:10] Well, no. I think the number will be
[6:11] determined. We've talked about a a
[6:13] package from 675 billion to 775
[6:18] billion. But, you know, those numbers
[6:20] are not fixed. One thing we I think
[6:22] everyone agrees on economists from left
[6:24] to right is that we have to do something
[6:25] very large.
[6:27] Larry Summers wrote an op-ed in the
[6:29] Washington Post today in which he said
[6:30] that economists believe that if we don't
[6:33] do something
[6:34] large that we're going to be looking at
[6:36] double-digit
[6:38] employment unemployment by the end of
[6:40] next year and that that is totally
[6:42] unacceptable. So, we want to create 3
[6:45] million or create or save 3 million jobs
[6:48] to forestall that and we want to do it
[6:50] in a way that leaves a lasting footprint
[6:53] by investing in energy and healthcare
[6:56] projects and
[6:58] refurbishing the nation's classrooms and
[7:00] labs and and libraries so our kids can
[7:02] compete and rebuilding our crumbling
[7:04] roads and bridges and waterways and in
[7:06] this way we're not only just we're not
[7:08] only creating work, but we're laying the
[7:09] foundation for the future of our
[7:11] economy.
[7:11] >> Would you like to see that bill on the
[7:13] president's desk on January 20th or
[7:16] perhaps the 21st or will it take longer
[7:17] than that?
[7:19] Well, we'll see. Obviously, the sooner
[7:21] the better. I don't think Americans can
[7:22] wait. People are suffering. Our economy
[7:24] is sliding and we need to act. And so,
[7:26] our message to Congress is to work
[7:29] on it with all deliberate speed.
[7:32] Obviously, we want it done right. One of
[7:34] the things we have to do is ensure that
[7:35] this is done in a way that the public
[7:38] can have confidence in. So, we want we
[7:40] want
[7:42] strict review on for the front end on
[7:44] what we're investing in. We want
[7:46] oversight once those investments are
[7:48] made and we want transparency so people
[7:50] can follow this. We're not going to have
[7:52] earmarks in this, congressional earmarks
[7:55] in in this package.
[7:58] This has to be something different than
[7:59] business as usual and we're going to
[8:01] make sure that it is.
[8:02] >> Is January 20th realistic?
[8:04] I don't know. We hope so. That would be
[8:07] great, but how however long it takes,
[8:11] you know, we're going to This is as you
[8:12] say jobs are job number one for us right
[8:15] now. We have to get this economy moving
[8:17] again. We have to
[8:18] unstuck our credit markets and we have
[8:21] to get
[8:22] businesses and jobs flowing again and so
[8:26] this is this is what we're going to be
[8:28] working on
[8:29] from the moment we get there. Let's
[8:31] switch quickly to the
[8:33] situation with Governor Blagojevich in
[8:35] Illinois. Now, the internal report came
[8:38] out from the Obama team basically saying
[8:40] that nobody did anything wrong. There
[8:42] were no inappropriate conversations,
[8:45] but those transcripts are still out
[8:47] there and they haven't been made public.
[8:49] The transcripts of Rahm Emanuel's calls
[8:51] and I'm not sure if there are other
[8:53] calls that might be on transcripts too.
[8:55] You know how Washington works. If there
[8:57] are transcripts out there of Rahm
[8:59] Emanuel on the phone talking about this
[9:02] with Blagojevich's office, this is not
[9:05] going to go away. So even though you
[9:07] guys would like to say this is it, it's
[9:09] over, it's done,
[9:11] I think you know the way Washington
[9:12] works, it's not.
[9:14] Well, I know the way Washington works. I
[9:16] also know the way
[9:18] the US Attorney's office it works. Those
[9:20] Those transcripts are in their
[9:22] possession. They're not in our
[9:23] possession. We didn't tape
[9:24] conversations. We don't have transcripts
[9:26] of those conversations. I will say some
[9:28] of the reporting on this has been wildly
[9:30] inaccurate before our report was
[9:32] released. There were reports in some
[9:33] newspapers that that Rahm had had 20
[9:36] discussions with the governor and all
[9:38] kinds of wild things that that weren't
[9:40] true.
[9:41] You know, the it's it's but it's it's
[9:43] within the power and purview of the US
[9:45] attorney to release any transcripts. We
[9:48] don't have any control over that. And
[9:50] when they are released, when and if they
[9:52] are released, they will completely bear
[9:54] out the report that we
[9:56] that we issued this week. The fact is
[9:58] we're sort of innocent bystanders in
[9:59] this process and
[10:01] we have tried to work with the US
[10:03] attorney's office so as not to interfere
[10:04] with their investigation. That's why our
[10:06] report was delayed, but the report was
[10:08] complete. Okay, David, I'm going to have
[10:10] to cut you off there. Thank you very
[10:11] much and a happy New Year. Thank you for
[10:13] joining us.
[10:14] >> Thank you. Thank you.
[10:16] And we'll be back in just 1 minute.
[10:25] We're back now with Lieutenant Governor
[10:27] Pat Quinn, who joins us from Chicago.
[10:29] Thank you for joining us.
[10:32] Appreciate the opportunity. Um tomorrow
[10:34] impeachment proceedings begin anew in
[10:36] the extraordinary and wild case of
[10:38] Governor Rod Blagojevich. Do you believe
[10:41] he will be impeached and if so, how long
[10:43] will it take?
[10:45] Yes, I do think he will be impeached.
[10:47] The House does that. It'll move to the
[10:50] Illinois Senate. I think he will be
[10:52] convicted by the Illinois Senate and
[10:54] removed from office.
[10:56] I hope the governor voluntarily resigns.
[10:58] I think that's much better for his
[11:00] interest, but more importantly for the
[11:01] people of Illinois. Now the US
[11:04] attorney's office this week has said
[11:06] that they're not going to release any of
[11:07] their investigative information to the
[11:10] impeachment committee. Does that not
[11:11] make impeachment impossible?
[11:14] It's on the contrary. There's so much
[11:16] other evidence that the impeachment
[11:18] committee has considered. I think
[11:20] there's many articles of impeachment
[11:22] that will be found by the committee and
[11:24] referred to the entire House. If a
[11:26] majority of the House votes for
[11:27] impeachment, then the governor is
[11:29] impeached and then a trial is held in
[11:31] the Illinois Senate. Two-thirds of the
[11:33] members of the Senate must vote to
[11:35] convict and I think there's far more
[11:37] than that ready to do that. So, it
[11:39] sounds like you believe it is inevitable
[11:40] that he will
[11:42] be thrown out by impeachment at some
[11:45] point. If it is inevitable, why won't he
[11:47] just step down?
[11:49] Well, the governor is who he is.
[11:52] I think he's just
[11:53] >> Can you offer a window into his mind at
[11:54] all? The New York Times today he was see
[11:56] so narcissist said he's so narcissistic,
[11:59] he won't do it.
[12:01] Do you know him well enough to give a
[12:02] sense of why he won't do this?
[12:05] Well, he's isolated. He always has been.
[12:08] He doesn't really
[12:09] ask other people for their advice other
[12:11] than a very tight palace guard. I think
[12:13] they give him bad advice and sometimes
[12:16] the palace guard tells him what he wants
[12:17] to hear and not what he needs to know.
[12:19] What he needs to know is that he's
[12:21] disgraced himself. He's disgraced the
[12:23] people of Illinois and the proper thing
[12:26] to do is to step aside and resign. But
[12:29] he's a He is who he is. So, you he's not
[12:31] going to do that. He had a press
[12:32] conference and said he would fight to
[12:34] his last breath, but
[12:36] I think the people of Illinois are going
[12:38] to fight to their last breath to remove
[12:39] him as governor.
[12:41] His lawyer said at one point that if the
[12:44] state of Illinois is hurt by all this,
[12:46] that he would step down. Do you believe
[12:47] him?
[12:49] Well, I sure hope so. I think they
[12:50] really should take that option. There's
[12:52] a provision in the Illinois Constitution
[12:54] that allows Governor Blagojevich to step
[12:56] aside. He still would retain the title
[12:59] of governor, but there would be an
[13:00] acting governor. Lieutenant Governor,
[13:02] that's me.
[13:03] But all the powers and responsibilities
[13:05] of governor would go to the acting
[13:07] governor and the governor, currently
[13:09] Governor Blagojevich, could work legally
[13:11] to try and clear his name.
[13:14] That's much better for the people of
[13:15] Illinois. Our state government is in
[13:17] crisis. The people are not getting the
[13:19] government they deserve. There's a
[13:21] pretense by the governor that he's doing
[13:23] his regular business, but it's totally
[13:25] false. He's the governor, you're the
[13:27] lieutenant governor. Usually a governor
[13:29] and lieutenant governor work closely
[13:31] together. What's the When is the last
[13:32] time that you actually spoke with him?
[13:35] Uh August of 2007.
[13:37] Uh in Illinois, the lieutenant governor
[13:39] is nominated separately from the
[13:41] governor in the primary, and that's how
[13:43] I came to be uh lieutenant governor. Uh
[13:46] I
[13:48] you know, I've tried to talk to the
[13:49] governor over the last year and a half.
[13:51] Uh he's a hard guy to reach.
[13:54] Well, you would think he would return
[13:55] your call. Um
[13:56] did you intentionally keep your distance
[13:59] from him? And were you aware that he was
[14:02] being investigated uh by federal
[14:04] investigators?
[14:06] Well, it's in the newspapers over the
[14:08] past year, but certainly on December 9th
[14:11] when the governor was arrested and put
[14:13] in handcuffs, I think that was a shock
[14:15] to everyone in Illinois, and I was
[14:17] hopeful that the governor would decide
[14:18] to step aside and uh let our state move
[14:21] forward, but he made his decision, and
[14:24] uh I think the people will make theirs.
[14:25] The people of Illinois I think are
[14:27] embarrassed by all the events of the
[14:29] past uh few weeks. Uh they don't want
[14:32] this to continue. Our state is a good
[14:34] state with hard-working people, very
[14:36] patriotic people. Uh we've had over 220
[14:39] uh men and women from Illinois lose
[14:41] their lives uh defending our democracy
[14:43] in the war against terrorism, and I
[14:45] think it's important to remember that
[14:47] the people of Illinois will prevail. You
[14:49] said that you do believe he will be
[14:51] impeached by the House and removed by
[14:53] the Senate. When do you think that will
[14:55] happen, that he will be out of office?
[14:57] I think it'll happen swiftly. Um you
[14:59] know, the 200th anniversary of Abraham
[15:01] Lincoln's birth is uh February 12th of
[15:04] next year, and I don't think Governor
[15:06] Blagojevich will be governor at that
[15:08] time. Uh that bicentennial of Abraham
[15:11] Lincoln's birth is very special to the
[15:12] people of Illinois. We believe in
[15:14] government of the people and by the
[15:16] people and for the people. It shall not
[15:18] perish from this earth. That's what
[15:19] Lincoln said at Gettysburg. And I those
[15:23] words I think ring true today.
[15:24] >> Is there anybody you'll be in a position
[15:26] to appoint the replacement for Barack
[15:28] Obama? Is there somebody who you favor
[15:30] at this point?
[15:31] Well, I hope we can have a special
[15:32] election. I think that probably can't
[15:35] occur now until June of next year. And I
[15:37] do think there should be a temporary
[15:39] appointment to make sure Illinois has
[15:41] two senators at all times. If I am the
[15:44] governor, I would certainly push that
[15:45] kind of a law, and we'll see what
[15:47] happens. If the legislature has to adopt
[15:49] the law and then send it to the
[15:50] governor. Uh Lieutenant Governor, you
[15:52] have been called a goody two shoes by a
[15:55] number of people.
[15:56] I think in Illinois that's probably a
[15:58] high compliment. Are you the person who
[16:01] can
[16:02] turn Illinois around if you do become
[16:04] governor, or is this
[16:07] reputation of corruption and the the
[16:10] reality of corruption just too
[16:11] ingrained?
[16:14] Well, I believe the highest office in a
[16:15] democracy is the office of citizen, and
[16:17] I believe in organizing citizens, and
[16:20] that's what I've done all my life. I one
[16:22] time walked across Illinois from the
[16:23] Mississippi River all the way to Lake
[16:25] Michigan in Chicago
[16:27] on behalf of reform. And I think we can
[16:30] reform our state government. I think the
[16:32] people of America need to know that
[16:34] we've had good people from Illinois
[16:36] serving government like Paul Simon and
[16:38] Paul Douglas and Barack Obama, and we
[16:41] need to emphasize that and emphasize
[16:44] ethics and reform, and I think the
[16:46] people of Illinois are ready for that.
[16:48] Okay, Lieutenant Governor Pat Quinn of
[16:50] Illinois, thank you very much, and happy
[16:52] New Year.
[16:53] Same to you.
[16:55] We'll be back in a moment with Nobel
[16:56] laureate Paul Krugman.
[17:03] This portion of Face the Nation is
[17:05] brought to you by Exxon Mobil, taking on
[17:07] the world's toughest energy challenges.
[17:13] With us now from New York City, Paul
[17:15] Krugman, winner of the 2008 Nobel Prize
[17:17] in economics. He's also the author of
[17:19] The Return of Depression Economics and
[17:21] The Conscience of a Liberal. Paul, thank
[17:24] you very much for joining us and
[17:25] congratulations on the Nobel Prize.
[17:28] Well, thank you.
[17:29] How long do you see this recession
[17:31] lasting?
[17:32] Oh, boy. Um it's not a simple question.
[17:35] I mean, I I expect, if only because of
[17:37] all the money that the Obama
[17:38] administration is going to spend, I
[17:39] expect to see some pick up late 2009. Um
[17:43] but I think we're going to be in trouble
[17:45] for several years. This is going to be a
[17:47] tough long-term slog.
[17:50] In trouble, how deep do you see this
[17:52] going? And some people have made
[17:54] comparisons to the 1930s. Do you think
[17:57] that's fair and accurate? You know, if
[17:59] we were as ignorant as we were in the
[18:01] 1930s, I think we would be facing a
[18:04] second Great Depression. You look at the
[18:05] scope of this thing. You look at uh you
[18:07] know, we're in trouble, but go around
[18:10] the world. I mean, I've been looking at
[18:11] numbers for Ukraine, which are terrible.
[18:13] All around the world is this crisis
[18:14] taking place. Um the really the only
[18:17] reason that we're not headed for Great
[18:19] Depression 2, at least I don't think we
[18:20] are, is that we think we've learned a
[18:22] few things since then. So, we're not
[18:24] trying to balance the federal budget in
[18:25] the face of uh of a recession, but um
[18:28] this is this is big stuff. This is the
[18:30] worst thing, you know, in
[18:32] in two lifetimes. I I mean, people are
[18:34] moving very quickly on this Obama plan,
[18:36] you know, they want to have it on uh
[18:38] his desk, the uh economic recovery plan
[18:41] on his desk, probably a week to 10 days,
[18:43] according to people in the Senate uh
[18:45] after he is sworn in.
[18:48] Very different from back in the 1930s. I
[18:50] mean, you had the stock market crash in
[18:51] 1929. You didn't really have a
[18:53] depression until years later because
[18:56] they didn't do anything. Uh is that
[18:57] correct? Well, they they they didn't do
[19:00] anything. In fact, they did perverse
[19:01] stuff. I mean, Herbert Hoover raised
[19:03] taxes in the face of a slump. He he uh
[19:06] people were cutting spending in the face
[19:08] of a slump. And the Federal Reserve of
[19:10] the time sort of didn't understand the
[19:12] risks.
[19:13] That said, it's not so easy to deal with
[19:15] this thing. I mean, everybody I think
[19:17] that I'm talking to is is worried about
[19:20] time. Uh we're we're talking about, you
[19:22] know, there may be a stimulus package on
[19:24] Obama's desk a week or 10 days after he
[19:26] takes office, but um
[19:28] these things take time to get going.
[19:30] It's going to take 6 months probably
[19:32] before you get any significant amount of
[19:33] stuff going through. Maybe they can do
[19:35] better than that, we'll see. Um probably
[19:37] a year before a lot of it really starts
[19:38] happening, and meanwhile we lost more
[19:41] than half a million jobs last month.
[19:43] We're probably losing jobs at the rate
[19:44] of 600,000 a month now.
[19:46] The economy needs to add 100,000 jobs a
[19:48] month just to keep up with the
[19:49] population. So, you know, time is
[19:52] passing, things are headed downhill, and
[19:54] it's going to take be a long time before
[19:56] even with all of this speed before the
[19:59] the Obama plan gets any traction. Uh
[20:01] David Axelrod, a top Obama advisor, a
[20:04] short time ago on this show said that he
[20:06] is still talking about a number of 675
[20:09] billion to 775
[20:11] billion, and I think that's a 2-year
[20:12] figure. Do you think that's enough, or
[20:14] does it need to be bigger than that? Uh
[20:16] I'd like to see it bigger. I understand
[20:18] that there's difficulty in actually
[20:19] spending that much money, and I they're
[20:20] also afraid of the of the T-word.
[20:23] They're afraid of a trillion dollar for
[20:25] for uh for the 2-year number. But, you
[20:28] know, um the back of my envelope says it
[20:30] takes roughly 200 billion a year to cut
[20:33] the unemployment rate by 1% from what it
[20:35] would otherwise be. Um
[20:38] in the absence of this program, we could
[20:39] very easily be looking at a 10%
[20:41] unemployment rate. So, you do the math,
[20:43] and you say, you know, even these
[20:45] enormous numbers we're hearing about are
[20:47] probably enough to mitigate, but by no
[20:49] means to reverse the slump we're heading
[20:51] into. So, this is uh
[20:53] um you know, I I they're thinking about
[20:55] it straight. I I liked what Larry
[20:56] Summers wrote in the Washington Post. Uh
[20:58] I think he was getting it right that the
[21:01] the risks of being too small are much
[21:03] bigger than the risks of being too big.
[21:05] Nonetheless, I am actually concerned
[21:07] that this thing is not going to be
[21:08] really big enough.
[21:09] How do you see this recession and the
[21:11] response to it changing this country? I
[21:13] know you've been arguing for a more
[21:15] progressive government for a long time,
[21:18] and obviously at difficult times like
[21:19] this, I don't want to suggest that a
[21:21] recession is a good thing, but if
[21:23] looking back at this 5 years or some
[21:26] number of years from now, can you
[21:27] envision a country that is better off
[21:30] because of how it responded to this
[21:32] recession? Well, if you believe, as I
[21:34] do, that we need a stronger social
[21:36] safety net, that we that we need
[21:38] universal health care, then the
[21:40] revelation of just how vulnerable we are
[21:43] when things go wrong is is going to
[21:45] help.
[21:46] Um if you believe that we've gone way
[21:48] too far in this belief that the market
[21:50] is always right and that regulation is
[21:51] always wrong, then this is one heck of a
[21:54] lesson in what happens if you don't
[21:57] adequately regulate financial markets.
[21:59] So, I think we we may be seeing a
[22:01] a swing of the political pendulum as a
[22:03] result of this crisis that will um
[22:06] hopefully leave us a better nation in
[22:07] the long run. I mean, we we we came out
[22:10] of the New Deal. We came out of the
[22:11] 1930s as a better country, a a
[22:14] middle-class country where we had been
[22:16] in in the Gilded Age. We came out as a a
[22:19] country that took better care of its
[22:20] citizens. That doesn't mean that you
[22:22] hope for a depression, right? Um so, we
[22:25] hope that this thing is is relatively
[22:27] short um shorter than I expect it to be
[22:30] and that it's not as bad as I expect it
[22:31] to be, but yeah, I mean, we're we're
[22:33] learning something and and hopefully
[22:36] we'll make some use of those lessons. Uh
[22:37] Barack Obama has talked a lot about the
[22:39] need to reach across the aisle on
[22:40] everything on all all of his policies,
[22:43] foreign policy, and this. Uh and clearly
[22:46] in the Senate, you can't get anything
[22:47] done with anything less than 60 votes.
[22:49] You need Republicans, and in fact, I've
[22:52] been told on Capitol Hill, they want a
[22:53] lot more than 60 votes. They want this
[22:55] to be genuinely bipartisan, which brings
[22:57] me to your book, which I was actually
[22:59] reading last night, and on page 272, I'm
[23:03] not playing gotcha, but I just wanted to
[23:04] see
[23:05] you talk about the fact that the
[23:08] the Republican Party is controlled by
[23:09] movement conservatives. You then say,
[23:11] quote, the notion beloved of political
[23:13] pundits that we can make progress
[23:15] through bipartisan consensus is simply
[23:18] foolish. Are you suggesting that the
[23:20] kind of bipartisan consensus Barack
[23:21] Obama is looking for is foolish? He's,
[23:24] you know, that
[23:26] he's not going to get bipartisan
[23:27] consensus. He may be able to get some
[23:29] moderate Republican votes. He may be
[23:31] able to get the the moderate Republicans
[23:33] in the Senate, both of them,
[23:35] to
[23:36] vote with the Democrats.
[23:38] It there is the point is you look at
[23:39] what John Boehner is doing
[23:42] in the House right now, the
[23:44] the House Republican leader. He's
[23:46] he's dead set against doing anything
[23:49] constructive right now. He's actually
[23:50] soliciting on his website saying if
[23:52] there are any credentialed economists
[23:54] who are willing to, you know, say
[23:55] negative things about stimulus plans,
[23:58] please contact me.
[24:00] So, no, it's not it's not going to be
[24:01] bipartisan in the sense that the leaders
[24:03] of both parties are going to get
[24:04] together. Reaching out across the aisle,
[24:06] trying to find some sensible people on
[24:08] the Republican side is not the same
[24:09] thing. Okay, great. Paul Krugman, thank
[24:12] you so much for joining us.
[24:13] Happy New Year. We'll be back in a
[24:15] moment.
[24:22] This portion of Face the Nation was
[24:23] sponsored by Toyota. We're asking the
[24:26] question why not keeps us moving
[24:27] forward.
[24:32] That's our broadcast. Bob Schieffer will
[24:34] be back next week with an interview with
[24:36] Vice President Dick Cheney. Thanks for
[24:38] watching Face the Nation and Happy New
[24:41] Year.
[24:45] This broadcast was produced by CBS News,
[24:48] which is solely responsible for the
[24:49] selection of today's guests and topics.
[24:52] It originated in Washington, D.C.