CNN - Situation Room and Lou Dobbs Tonight - 2006-11-27
Channel: malgent
Transcript
Language: English (original, YouTube automatic captions)
[0:00] anded by the war. And there's new word
[0:02] this hour about how far Mr. Bush may be
[0:05] willing to go. Back home, a bipartisan
[0:08] panel drafting its own blueprint for
[0:10] trying to ease the Iraq crisis. We'll
[0:12] have details. Does the killing and chaos
[0:14] in Baghdad and beyond now qualify as a
[0:17] formal civil war? It's midnight in Iraq.
[0:20] We're tracking the unrelenting violence
[0:22] and the controversial new efforts to
[0:24] make Iran a partner in seeking peace.
[0:28] Plus, don't read his lips, watch his
[0:30] actions. It's 4 p.m. here in Washington
[0:32] where Senator Barack Obama has been
[0:35] sending signals about his White House
[0:37] ambitions. I'm Wolf Blitzer. You're in
[0:39] the situation.
[0:56] Right now, President Bush is at the
[0:58] forefront of a high stakes hunt for a
[1:00] solution to the Iraq crisis. He's in
[1:02] Estonia on route to a NATO summit and
[1:04] later talks with Iraq's prime minister.
[1:07] There's new word from the White House
[1:08] that Mr. Bush may be willing to take
[1:10] some somewhat drastic action and open a
[1:13] direct line of communication with Iran.
[1:15] And our White House correspondent
[1:17] Suzanne Malvau is traveling with the
[1:19] president. She's joining us now live
[1:21] from Talin in Estonia. Suzanne.
[1:25] Wolf. We just got a briefing from Steven
[1:27] Hadley, the national security adviser.
[1:29] He was aboard Air Force One to give a
[1:30] readout about the potential conversation
[1:32] between President Bush and Iraq's Prime
[1:34] Minister Nuria al-Maliki. Now, he did
[1:37] not make a commitment of the United
[1:38] States actually reaching out and talking
[1:40] to Iran, but he said it certainly was
[1:42] something that was going to come up in
[1:43] the discussion between President Bush
[1:45] and Maliki that that was certainly a
[1:47] priority and that it was a priority of
[1:49] Maliki in particular that uh their
[1:51] understanding was that the Iraqi leader
[1:53] would want to have those kind of
[1:55] face-to-face talks, the dialogue with
[1:57] Syria as well as Iran on its own, that
[2:00] they want to be the one to take the lead
[2:02] on that, but also there would be
[2:03] discussions about whether the United
[2:05] States would be involved. in some sort
[2:07] of discussion with Iran about Iraq's
[2:09] future. So that is of course
[2:11] significant. Also from Hadley's
[2:13] discussion, he described this level of
[2:15] violence as really a new phase. And he
[2:18] said the discussions were not going to
[2:19] be about US troop levels when the two
[2:21] leaders meet, but rather how to uh build
[2:24] up Iraqi forces and how to uh actually
[2:26] train them in a much faster way to get
[2:29] that actually moving forward. Uh two
[2:31] other things came from this gaggle as
[2:33] well. Of course, he made calls to
[2:35] Egypt's host Mubarak as well as France's
[2:38] Jacques Shurach asking uh for their
[2:40] assistance when it comes to these talks
[2:42] as well as the NATO summit. Wolf,
[2:44] >> it sounds like they're get getting in
[2:46] place, trying to get in place perhaps
[2:48] some sort of international conference.
[2:50] The vice president over the weekend goes
[2:52] to meet with the Saudi king. Now the
[2:54] president will be in Jordan to meet with
[2:56] the Jordanian king as well as the Iraqi
[2:58] prime minister. They're having
[2:59] consultations with the Egyptian leader.
[3:02] Presumably others are talking to the
[3:04] Syrians. We know that Jalal Talibani,
[3:07] the president of Iraq, is today meeting
[3:09] with the the president of Iran. Is that
[3:12] what's
[3:14] what might be in the works right now? Is
[3:16] Steven Hadley, the president's national
[3:18] security adviser, suggesting the US be
[3:20] may be open to this kind of
[3:22] international conference?
[3:25] >> Well, absolutely, Wolf. and what you're
[3:27] hearing from various sources and
[3:28] different leaders. You heard it very
[3:30] directly over the weekend from Jordan's
[3:32] King Abdullah. They want an
[3:33] international conference. It's something
[3:35] the Iraq study group has also been
[3:37] recommending as well. But also the Arab
[3:39] allies, Iraq's neighbors here. They want
[3:42] some sort of international regional
[3:44] conference, a way to look at the big
[3:46] picture here uh to to get everyone
[3:49] involved, those players as well as the
[3:51] United States. So that is why you're
[3:52] seeing this diplomatic offensive taking
[3:54] place with Cheney reaching out to Saudi
[3:56] Arabia uh being in Jordan, reaching out
[3:58] to Jordan as well as some of those other
[4:00] moderate allies. If the United States
[4:02] can't make some sort of impact with
[4:04] Iraq, then they want Iraq's neighbors to
[4:06] try to help out.
[4:07] >> And by almost all accounts, it will be
[4:09] linked to a renewed US effort to try to
[4:11] jumpstart Israeli Palestinian peace
[4:14] peace process as well. Suzan Malvo,
[4:16] we're going to check back with you.
[4:17] She's traveling with the president. his
[4:19] first stop today in Estonia, later going
[4:21] to Latafia and then on to Jordan.
[4:24] Meanwhile, the United Nations Secretary
[4:26] General Kofi Annan says he believes Iraq
[4:28] now is almost almost his word in a civil
[4:32] war. Some others are arguing though that
[4:34] the violence has passed that tipping
[4:36] point, certainly a while back.
[4:40] Joining us now, our correspondent in
[4:41] Baghdad, Michael Wear, Michael, as you
[4:43] know, there's a huge debate here in the
[4:45] United States, whether or not this is a
[4:48] civil war. The White House, the Bush
[4:50] administration denies US troops are
[4:52] involved in a civil war in Iraq. The
[4:54] Iraqi government, Prime Minister Nuri
[4:56] al- Maliki, denies this is a civil war,
[4:59] but a lot of other experts not only say
[5:01] it's a civil war, it may be one of the
[5:03] most brutal and violent civil wars of
[5:06] recent memory. You're there on the
[5:08] ground. Is this a civil war?
[5:11] >> Well, what I can tell you, Wolf, for
[5:12] example, is right now as I'm speaking to
[5:15] you, there's a gun battle underway. The
[5:17] the sound of machine gunfire in a
[5:20] neighboring suburb. It's a Sunni area
[5:22] where it's known that Shia death squads
[5:25] often in police uniforms roam and the
[5:27] locals band together to to repel them.
[5:30] That could very well be going on as
[5:32] we're speaking to each other. Certainly
[5:34] in the rest of Iraq tonight, that's what
[5:36] communities are doing, banding together,
[5:38] using telephones and SMS and even blog
[5:42] sites to coordinate as death squads move
[5:45] in and they prepare their defenses. The
[5:47] debate about whether there's a civil war
[5:50] is fueled either by the luxury of
[5:53] distance, those who aren't here living
[5:56] on the ground, or is fueled by the spin
[5:59] of those with a political agenda to deny
[6:02] its existence. The basic definition is a
[6:05] war by organized groups within a
[6:08] country. Some say it must be a battle
[6:10] over the political center with at least
[6:12] a thousand dead involving neighborhood
[6:14] on neighborhood, militia style combat,
[6:17] elements of ethnic cleansing, you know,
[6:19] family on family, coordination and
[6:22] organization. Well, Wolf, you can tick
[6:25] every box. We now have institutionalized
[6:28] death squads in police uniforms. You're
[6:31] having Sunni patients pulled out of Shia
[6:33] controlled hospitals. You have
[6:35] neighborhoods with fighting positions.
[6:37] You have districts engaged in mortar
[6:39] wars. One neighborhood lobbing bombs on
[6:42] another neighborhood and then
[6:43] retaliating. People carry jewel identity
[6:46] cards. One Sunni, one Shia. Children
[6:49] dare not go to school for fear of
[6:51] crossing ethnic lines. Wol, if this is
[6:54] not a civil war, then I don't want to
[6:57] see one when it comes. I is it likely
[7:01] based on what you see on the ground
[7:02] there, Michael, you've been there for
[7:04] more than 3 years, that the uh the
[7:06] violence could even get worse?
[7:09] >> Oh, I I don't think that that would be a
[7:12] difficult thing to imagine at all. Put
[7:14] it this way. When I would speak to some
[7:17] of the most senior members of the US
[7:20] military intelligence here in Iraq, when
[7:23] they were asked to define civil war,
[7:26] some time ago, they would say that,
[7:28] well, we're not at civil war yet. This
[7:30] is largely an al-Qaeda sectarian
[7:33] conflict. It requires al-Qaeda to attack
[7:36] to provoke some kind of response from
[7:38] the Shia. They said it will not be civil
[7:41] war until it develops its own momentum
[7:43] that the Shia attack unprovoked. Well,
[7:47] we passed that way back earlier this
[7:49] year. And US military intelligence
[7:52] themselves said at first we saw the Shia
[7:54] attacks were targeted against specific
[7:56] individuals. Now we see mass killings by
[8:00] the Shia just like we've been seeing
[8:02] mass killings by the Sunnis. US military
[8:05] intelligence then said, "Well, it won't
[8:07] be civil war till we see the body
[8:09] politic, the general population being
[8:11] pulled apart." Well, Wolf, we've got
[8:14] that now. So, really, it's easy to see
[8:18] even by conservative military
[8:20] intelligence dynamics that this thing
[8:24] has been rolling along and getting
[8:25] worse. And so far, there is nothing to
[8:28] suggest that that won't continue to
[8:30] deteriorate.
[8:31] >> Michael Wear reporting for us from
[8:33] Baghdad. Michael, thanks very much.
[8:36] >> Thank you, Wolf.
[8:37] >> And as Michael just noted, Baghdad
[8:39] residents right now turning to the web
[8:41] in an effort to try to keep one another
[8:43] informed and protected as sectarian
[8:46] violence in the city rages. Our internet
[8:49] reporter Abby Tatton is monitoring the
[8:50] situation online. Abby, what are you
[8:52] seeing?
[8:52] >> Wol, the message at the front of this
[8:54] website is defend yourselves. The
[8:57] militias of evil have started the
[8:59] attack. It's the website of the anti-war
[9:01] group, the Iraqi League. gets popular
[9:03] with Iraqi Sunnis. It has contributors
[9:06] in Iraq as well as administrators in
[9:09] Canada and in the UK. And since
[9:11] Thursday's attack, it has a new focus on
[9:13] this website once they want to urge
[9:16] Iraqis to prepare for bloody reprisals
[9:19] and also they want pe to compile
[9:21] information what Iraqis are seeing on
[9:23] the ground neighborhood by neighborhood
[9:25] of sectarian violence. on this page.
[9:28] These people can submit what they are
[9:30] seeing and the reports are coming in
[9:32] thick and fast. In one Baghdad
[9:34] neighborhood, a warning, don't travel on
[9:36] a certain bus line because people are
[9:38] hearing that PE passengers are being
[9:40] arrested based on their sect. Elsewhere,
[9:42] you see people discussing or posting
[9:44] about how best to deploy snipers in
[9:47] their neighborhood. Elsewhere, a simple
[9:48] but urgent plea. We're being attacked.
[9:51] Somebody help us. Now, it's very
[9:53] difficult to distinguish fact from rumor
[9:56] on this website. I spoke to an
[9:58] administrator who's based in the United
[9:59] Kingdom, Ali Akmed, who said that what
[10:02] they're trying to do is use their Iraqi
[10:03] reporters to verify the accounts before
[10:06] posting them. He also says they're not
[10:08] urging violence through this this site,
[10:11] just telling people that they need to
[10:12] defend themselves, whatever from these
[10:14] postings on the accuracy, the details.
[10:17] What comes through is how urgent and
[10:20] scared people are that are posting on
[10:22] this site. Wolf
[10:23] >> Abby, thank you. Iraq, meanwhile,
[10:26] reaching out for help today from its
[10:27] former enemy. That would be Iran. It's
[10:30] more evidence that terror's often
[10:32] belligerent government may hold an
[10:34] actual key to trying to solve the Iraq
[10:36] problem. But at what cost? That's a
[10:38] crucial question. Our Brian Todd is
[10:40] following the Iran connection and the
[10:42] controversy surrounding it. Brian Wolf,
[10:44] it's becoming more apparent to observers
[10:46] and to some powerful leaders involved in
[10:48] Iraq that Iran has to be involved if
[10:51] there's any chance at all at stability.
[10:53] It's an opportunity that Iran's
[10:54] president is very eager to exploit.
[10:58] >> In Thran, two former enemies share three
[11:01] kisses and a handshake. The president of
[11:03] Iraq, which fought a devastating 8-year
[11:06] war with Iran, now says his crippled,
[11:08] chaotic nation needs Iran's help to
[11:11] fight terrorism and restore security.
[11:13] The Iranian president vows to cooperate.
[11:18] We believe a secure, advanced, and
[11:20] powerful Iraq will be in line with the
[11:22] interests of the Iraqi nation, Iran, and
[11:25] all the region.
[11:26] >> Iranian and Syrian officials would not
[11:28] confirm reports that a three-way summit
[11:30] was planned with Syrian President Bashar
[11:33] Assad invited as well. But Iranian
[11:36] officials do tell CNN they expect Assad
[11:38] to travel to Iran soon, and they say the
[11:41] Turkish prime minister will arrive
[11:42] within days. Analysts say with Iraq
[11:45] spiraling out of control and the Bush
[11:47] administration indicating a change in
[11:49] strategy is imminent, Makmoud Madinad is
[11:52] positioning his nation as an
[11:54] indispensable player.
[11:55] >> Iran is trying to say to the Bush
[11:57] administration, "Unless you talk to us,
[12:00] the situation will continue to escalate
[12:02] and deteriorate." Akmadenad's hand may
[12:05] in fact never have been stronger with an
[12:07] ambitious nuclear program, the world's
[12:09] third largest oil reserves, a massive
[12:12] army and ballistic missile arsenal. He's
[12:14] also gained huge popularity on the
[12:16] so-called Arab street by supporting
[12:19] Hezbollah's recent fight against Israel.
[12:21] But critics say his public statements
[12:23] about wanting a secure Iraq ring hollow.
[12:27] >> Iran's uh Revolutionary Guard is all
[12:30] over southern Iraq. They have tremendous
[12:32] control in the south. They pumped in a
[12:35] lot of money into into Iraq as well as
[12:38] weapons. Uh so some militias uh most
[12:42] militias actually are are armed by the
[12:45] Iranians.
[12:47] >> Iranian officials deny they're supplying
[12:49] weapons to groups inside Iraq. They say
[12:51] Jalal Talibani's visit is aimed simply
[12:53] at promoting better security and
[12:55] economic cooperation. Either way, Thrron
[12:58] is now very clearly a necessary destin
[13:00] destination rather for key players in
[13:02] the Middle East. Wolf
[13:03] >> Brian, who would have thought? Thanks
[13:05] very much for that. Brian Todd
[13:06] reporting. Jack Caerty back from a
[13:08] little time off just as I am. Good to
[13:10] have you back, Jack. I hope you relaxed
[13:12] a little bit.
[13:12] >> And you, Wolf, thank you. President Bush
[13:14] and Iraqi Prime Minister Noriel Maliki
[13:17] are scheduled for two days of meetings
[13:19] later this week in Jordan. Uh they're
[13:22] calling it a summit meeting. I'm not
[13:23] sure that I go along with that. Neither
[13:25] of these men is enjoying much support at
[13:27] home. The real power in Iraq these days,
[13:30] the Shiite militia leader Makktat
[13:31] al-Sader is threatening to pull his
[13:34] representatives out of parliament if al-
[13:35] Maliki goes ahead with the Bush
[13:37] meetings. Congress, both parties here,
[13:40] stepping up pressure on Bush to find a
[13:42] solution. Iraq is getting worse by the
[13:44] day. A civil war is raging there now.
[13:47] Last week was the deadliest in Baghdad
[13:49] since the war began in March of 2003.
[13:52] America's involvement has now surpassed
[13:55] the amount of time we were in World War
[13:57] II. And a growing number of leaders in
[13:59] this country are calling Iraq the worst
[14:02] US foreign policy decision since
[14:04] Vietnam. Senator Chuck Hegel, a
[14:06] Republican from Nebraska, said this
[14:08] quote, "We have misunderstood, misread,
[14:11] misplanned, and mismanaged our honorable
[14:14] intentions with an arrogant self-d
[14:16] delusion reminiscent of Vietnam.
[14:18] Honorable intentions are not policies
[14:21] and plans." unquote. So, here's the
[14:23] question. What do you think will come
[14:24] out of these meetings this week in
[14:26] Jordan between Nuriel al- Maliki and
[14:29] President Bush? Email your thoughts to
[14:31] Cafferty File at CNN.com or go to
[14:33] CNN.com/caferty
[14:35] file. Wolf.
[14:36] >> And Senator Hegel remembers he served in
[14:38] the US military during Vietnam. So, he
[14:40] remembers full well when he makes that
[14:42] comparison. Jack, uh I assume he's
[14:45] referring to his own personal
[14:46] recollections of what uh what was going
[14:48] on at that time as well. Well, and and
[14:50] and perhaps he's drawing a parallel to
[14:53] the kind of u of of head in the sand
[14:56] mismanagement and refusal to face facts
[14:58] and reality that have highlighted the
[15:02] the approach to this war in Iraq. I
[15:03] mean, this thing has been spiraling out
[15:05] of control for weeks and months and and
[15:08] there is no sign of any sort of victory.
[15:11] Democracy ain't anywhere in that
[15:13] neighborhood and and probably won't be
[15:15] for another 800 years. I mean, we've got
[15:17] our head someplace where the sun doesn't
[15:19] shine on this deal, and people like
[15:21] Hegel are saying it's time to wake up
[15:23] and and face the reality of what's going
[15:25] on there.
[15:26] >> Jack Caerty, thanks.
[15:28] >> Coming up, is there a way out of the
[15:30] vortex of violence in Iraq? I'll ask the
[15:32] country's deputy representative to the
[15:33] United Nations about the new diplomatic
[15:35] scramble and whether Iran may have an
[15:38] important role to play. Will President
[15:40] Bush return from his overseas mission
[15:42] with something to show his critics? Or
[15:44] will he let the Iraq study group, as
[15:46] it's called, do some of the hard work
[15:47] for him? Donna Brazil and Babe Buchanan
[15:49] standing by for our strategy session.
[15:52] And do Senator Barack Obama's actions
[15:54] speak louder than his words? We're
[15:56] watching to see if the Illinois Democrat
[15:58] is making presidential moves right now.
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[18:48] Anderson Cooper live from Turkey tonight
[18:51] 10 Eastern.
[18:55] Let's check in with Carol Costello for a
[18:57] closer look at some other important
[18:59] stories making news. Hi Carol.
[19:01] >> Hi Wolf. Hello to all of you. Despite
[19:03] Israel's long-standing policy not to
[19:05] negotiate with those it considers
[19:06] terrorists, it appears they are ready to
[19:09] negotiate. Israel now offering to
[19:11] release Palestinian prisoners if
[19:13] Palestinian militants free an Israeli
[19:15] soldier kidnapped five months ago. Prime
[19:17] Minister Ahoot Almer made the offer
[19:19] today. It comes as Israel tries to
[19:21] restart peace talks with the
[19:22] Palestinians. But that peace may be hard
[19:24] to secure. Today, Palestinian militants
[19:27] fired two rockets into Israel in
[19:29] violation of a ceasefire agreement that
[19:31] took effect just over the weekend.
[19:32] That's according to Israel's defense
[19:34] forces, which also says militants fired
[19:36] nine other rockets this weekend, but
[19:38] those did not land in Israel. Islam
[19:40] Jihad and Hamas military wing claimed
[19:42] responsibility for several of those
[19:44] rocket attacks. In London, what you
[19:47] don't know may hurt you. New
[19:48] developments regarding that former
[19:50] Russian spy who died last week of
[19:52] radioactive poisoning. Scientists say
[19:54] they found more traces of radiation in
[19:56] three places around London. Officials
[19:58] are urging calm as three people report
[20:01] symptoms. They're now being tested for
[20:03] the same deadly poisoning that killed
[20:05] Alexander Lipenko. But officials say
[20:08] that is just a precaution. And words of
[20:10] anger to the man who preaches peace.
[20:12] Some people in Turkey want the pope to
[20:14] just stay home. Today and yesterday, as
[20:16] you see, many thousands protested Pope
[20:18] Benedict's planned visit to Turkey set
[20:20] for tomorrow. Many are still angry over
[20:22] the Pope's recent comments about Islam
[20:24] and violence. It will be the Pope's
[20:26] first visit to a predominantly Muslim
[20:28] country. He says he'll go as a friend
[20:30] and is asking his followers to pray for
[20:32] him. That's a look at the headlines
[20:34] right now. Wolf
[20:35] >> uh Anderson Cooper is there in Turkey.
[20:37] Uh Carol, he's going to have a special
[20:39] tonight. In fact, all of this week on
[20:41] this potential clash of these two great
[20:43] religions, Islam and Christianity. Uh
[20:46] 7:00 in our situation room, we're going
[20:47] to be speaking with Anderson from Turkey
[20:50] as well. Our viewers going to want to
[20:51] see that. Also, stay with CNN tonight,
[20:53] 1000 PM Eastern. Anderson Cooper 360 on
[20:57] the scene in Turkey. Senator Barack
[21:00] Obama, meanwhile, is generating big-time
[21:02] buzz in the pregame show of what's
[21:04] called the 2008 presidential race.
[21:07] Another Illinois Democrat, that would be
[21:08] Senator Richard Durban, today urging
[21:10] political supporters to sign an online
[21:13] petition encouraging Barack Obama to run
[21:16] for the White House. The incoming
[21:17] majority whip says Obama's political
[21:19] skills compare with those of Bill
[21:21] Clinton. While everyone and his brother
[21:23] seems to be talking about Obama these
[21:25] days, Obama seems to be saying a lot
[21:28] about his intentions even when he's not
[21:31] saying a thing. Let's turn to our senior
[21:33] political analyst, Bill Schneider, as we
[21:35] often do when these questions come up.
[21:37] Bill
[21:38] >> Wolf, if actions speak louder than
[21:40] words, then Senator Barack Obama is
[21:43] making a lot of noise.
[21:45] >> God bless you, Tom. Item: Senator Barack
[21:47] Obama has been seeking advice from some
[21:50] of the most experienced Democratic
[21:51] operatives in Iowa. Item: Senator Obama
[21:55] called key New Hampshire Democrats to
[21:57] congratulate them on their sweeping
[21:59] victory this month. It's a two-way
[22:01] conversation.
[22:02] >> I talked with the Obama camp. They
[22:04] insist uh that he has not set up shop in
[22:07] Iowa or New Hampshire. Uh they say
[22:09] people have been calling them offering
[22:11] their services if he chooses to run. The
[22:14] first term Illinois senator has a
[22:16] best-selling book. He appeared on Oprah.
[22:20] He spelled out his views on Iraq calling
[22:23] for
[22:23] >> a phased redeployment uh where we are
[22:26] sending a strong signal to the Iraqi
[22:29] government that they have to take some
[22:30] responsibility for uh arriving at a
[22:34] political solution.
[22:35] >> What about his own political plans?
[22:37] >> You know, I don't have a particular
[22:38] timetable.
[22:39] >> Why all the excitement over Obama? Look
[22:42] at the Democrats top choices for the
[22:43] 2008 nomination. Only one name on that
[22:46] list looks new. All the others are tied
[22:49] to the past. Obama captures what some
[22:52] Americans are looking for right now.
[22:54] >> As everywhere I go,
[22:56] I get a sense that people want to
[22:58] change.
[22:59] >> Some Democrats worry that their front
[23:01] runner, Senator Hillary Clinton, has too
[23:03] much political baggage. Obama travels
[23:06] light. what he is trying to offer really
[23:08] is a position that is not state on
[23:10] ideology.
[23:11] >> But Democrats also worry that Obama
[23:14] lacks experience. His response
[23:16] >> Donald Rumsfeld and Dick Cheney had the
[23:18] best resumes in Washington and initiated
[23:22] uh a fiasco in Iraq, but rather uh does
[23:26] someone have the judgment necessary to
[23:29] learn from experience?
[23:33] If he gots get elected president,
[23:35] Senator Obama would be 47 years old when
[23:38] he takes office in 2009. John F. Kennedy
[23:41] was 43 when he took office in 1961,
[23:46] which happens to be the same year Mr.
[23:48] Obama was born. Wolf Bill Clinton was in
[23:51] his mid-40s as well when he became
[23:53] president of the United States. So,
[23:55] maybe a good number for someone who
[23:57] wants to be president. Bill, thank you
[23:58] very much for that. I want to thank Bill
[24:00] Schneider. He's part of the best
[24:02] political team on television. And
[24:03] remember, for the latest political news
[24:05] at any time, check out our political
[24:07] ticker, go to cnn.com/ticker.
[24:10] Still ahead, President Bush preparing to
[24:12] discuss a new phase of violence in Iraq
[24:15] with the Prime Minister Nuriel Maliki.
[24:17] But will their summit in Jordan produce
[24:19] results, the Iraq stakes? That's coming
[24:21] up in our strategy session. And is Iraq
[24:24] in the midst of a civil war still on the
[24:26] brink? The country's deputy
[24:28] representative to the United Nations
[24:29] gives us his take on the bloodshed and
[24:32] whether it will ease up anytime soon.
[24:34] Stay with us. You're in the situation.
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[27:11] >> Welcome back to the situation room. I'm
[27:13] Wolf Blitzer in Washington. There's
[27:15] renewed dispute today over whether Iraq
[27:17] actually has plunged into civil war, but
[27:20] there's widespread consensus that
[27:21] something drastic needs to be done to
[27:24] try to stabilize the country and stop
[27:26] the hemorrhaging.
[27:29] And joining us now, Iraq's deputy
[27:30] representative to the United Nations,
[27:32] Ambassador Felistraati. Mr. Ambassador,
[27:35] thanks very much for coming in.
[27:36] >> My pleasure to be with you always. Why
[27:38] is your government uh still denying that
[27:41] there is a civil war underway in Iraq
[27:44] when every day we see these images,
[27:46] horrible images of Iraqi Shia and Iraqi
[27:50] Sunnis literally at each other's throat?
[27:53] Well, this is a questioning on in the
[27:56] scholarly community for some time as
[27:58] well as in political circles whether it
[27:59] is or it isn't a civil war. Uh today uh
[28:02] the secretary general of the United
[28:04] Nations uh made a statement which uh uh
[28:07] essentially says that it isn't yet a
[28:09] civil war. I think that what the point
[28:13] is regardless of what terminology you
[28:16] use, regardless of what nomomenclature
[28:17] you want to use, the point is that uh
[28:20] people are dying every day. Uh the
[28:22] situation is unacceptable and we have to
[28:25] find a way. Uh and when I say we, I mean
[28:28] the Iraqis, of course, the multinational
[28:30] force and the international community
[28:32] generally, including our neighbors, have
[28:34] to find a way of moving forward uh to
[28:36] bring the situation under control and to
[28:38] bring the violence and death to a stop.
[28:41] Are you concerned, Mr. ambassador uh
[28:43] that if in fact if in fact your
[28:46] government, the US government labeled
[28:48] this formally as a civil war, the
[28:51] American public would say understandably
[28:53] perhaps why is why are US troops
[28:56] involved in a in a civil war?
[28:58] >> Well, I mean, I'm not going to comment
[29:00] on I can't comment on on on domestic
[29:03] American politics or domestic American
[29:05] issues. Uh there are sound technical
[29:08] reasons for uh why this is not a civil
[29:12] war, including most most clearly because
[29:15] the population of Iraq, regardless of uh
[29:20] ethnicity or sectarian attachment uh or
[29:23] sect uh overwhelmingly rejects uh this
[29:27] violence. what you have are death squads
[29:30] operating uh on uh each sides on each
[29:33] side operated by extremists targeting
[29:35] the civilians of the other side. Uh in
[29:38] that sense you don't have for instance
[29:40] the militias which is a real problem
[29:41] right now. You don't have these militias
[29:43] fighting each other again rather you
[29:45] have them operating as death squads uh
[29:48] murdering uh the other side civilians.
[29:51] So there are sound reasons for why this
[29:53] is not a civil war in I mean
[29:56] respectfully I would submit to you that
[29:58] it really isn't important what you call
[30:00] it at this point. The point is that the
[30:02] violence must be brought to an end.
[30:04] Here's another image that is shocking to
[30:06] a lot of Americans and it's happened
[30:08] just today. the president of Iraq, Jalal
[30:11] Talibani, going to Tean, meeting with
[30:13] the president of Iran, uh, Ahmmed
[30:15] Ahmedad. Uh, and there are hugs and
[30:19] kisses, warm embraces. This is a a
[30:22] president of Iran that has literally
[30:24] called for Israel's destruction and has
[30:25] basically said the United States must be
[30:27] destroyed as well. Why is Iraq warming
[30:31] up to Iran right now? Well, I think
[30:35] everyone understands
[30:37] and from at least reading the newspapers
[30:40] this morning uh the Baker Hamilton
[30:43] Commission understands as well that that
[30:45] our neighbors all our neighbors uh the
[30:49] six immediate neighbors uh that we have
[30:51] adjacent neighbors all our neighbors
[30:54] Iran included other countries included
[30:57] uh have to be a part of the solution to
[30:59] the problem.
[31:01] Are you comfortable with with this uh
[31:03] embrace that Iraqi leaders are having
[31:05] with Iranian leaders?
[31:07] >> Well, keep in mind, I mean, the embrace
[31:09] is used in the Middle East, as you well
[31:10] know. You're an old Middle East veteran.
[31:12] In in our part of the Middle East, the
[31:14] embrace is used no differently than a
[31:16] handshake is in the West. So, you know
[31:18] that culturally, um, it's a part of the
[31:21] etiquette of the Middle East, as you
[31:22] well know. So the point is that we have
[31:26] profound problems in our country,
[31:29] problems that we think that our
[31:31] neighbors including Iran can help us
[31:33] solve. Uh and I think it is universally
[31:35] understood uh now that we need to reach
[31:38] out to all our neighbors uh to solve
[31:40] those problems. So on the contrary, I
[31:43] should think that to the extent that
[31:45] this may lead to a reduction of the
[31:47] violence in Iraq and to uh the uh
[31:51] eventual ability uh sooner rather than
[31:53] later of multinational forces to go
[31:56] home. I would think that this is
[31:57] precisely the kind of outreach uh that
[32:00] would be welcomed.
[32:01] >> Ambassador Strabati, thanks very much
[32:03] for coming in.
[32:04] >> My pleasure. Thank you. And up next,
[32:06] will President Bush and the Iraqi Prime
[32:08] Minister Nuriel Maliki agree on a plan
[32:10] to end the bloodshed that is staining
[32:12] both of their legacies? Jack Aferty
[32:15] going over your email right now. And is
[32:17] Iran part of the solution to the Iraq
[32:19] crisis or will engaging terror only
[32:22] create more problems? Dave Buchanan and
[32:24] Donna Brazil standing by for our
[32:26] strategy session. We'll be right back.
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[35:21] Today in our strategy session, finding
[35:23] the right solution for Iraq. President
[35:25] Bush set to meet with Iraq's prime
[35:26] minister to discuss Iraq's violent
[35:28] present and the possibility of a
[35:30] peaceful future. Here with us are two
[35:32] CNN political analysts. Donna Brazil is
[35:35] a Democratic strategist. Babe Buchanan
[35:37] is president of American cause. Thanks
[35:39] very much guys for coming in. This
[35:42] debate over whether or not Donna this is
[35:44] a civil war is very significant because
[35:46] the American public didn't bargain for
[35:49] getting involved in somebody else
[35:50] somebody else's civil war.
[35:52] >> That is correct. Look, this is very
[35:54] troubling indeed. If if many people are
[35:56] correct that it is a civil war. The
[35:58] American people thought uh that we could
[36:00] get in and get out real quickly. Now 3
[36:01] years, 8 months, 8 days, we're all now
[36:04] counting. They didn't bargain for a
[36:05] civil war. And if this is a civil war,
[36:07] then I think the Congress bipartisan
[36:10] will call call on the administration to
[36:12] begin to withdraw the troops.
[36:14] >> What do you think, Ben?
[36:14] >> There there's no question in in politics
[36:17] the rhetoric is very very important and
[36:19] a civil war or almost a civil war is a
[36:21] huge difference. Uh a lot of people
[36:23] would say we want to we want to avoid
[36:25] that civil war. That's why we need to
[36:26] stay there is to avoid it. But we're
[36:27] already into it. That changes the
[36:29] formula dramatically. Uh I think there's
[36:31] no question the majority of people
[36:33] historians will say it's civil war.
[36:35] There's some argument that might not be,
[36:36] but the bottom line is right now, and I
[36:38] think all Americans feel the same way,
[36:39] the key is how do we get Americans out
[36:42] of there without causing greater
[36:44] bloodshed than there already is.
[36:45] >> Well, one of the ways that that it might
[36:47] happen is this Iraq study group, this
[36:49] bipartisan uh group that has been put
[36:52] together, 10 members, five Democrats,
[36:55] five Republicans, and they're chaired by
[36:57] James Baker, the former Secretary of
[36:59] State, Lee Hamilton, the former United
[37:01] States Congressman. Both of them
[37:03] extremely experienced, very
[37:04] knowledgeable on all things Middle
[37:07] Eastern, and they they come with a lot
[37:09] in their history. But let's take a look
[37:11] at the eight other members of this
[37:13] panel, the other Republicans and the
[37:15] other Democrats, and we'll show their
[37:17] pictures up there. You take a look at
[37:18] the Republicans. Larry Eagleberger,
[37:20] former Secretary of State, lot of
[37:22] experience. Ed me niece, a former
[37:24] attorney general, White House official,
[37:26] not much experience in the Middle East.
[37:28] Sandra Day Okconor, an excellent Supreme
[37:30] Court justice, not a whole lot of
[37:31] experience in the Middle East. Former US
[37:33] Senator Alan Simpson of Wyoming, a lot
[37:35] of experience in the Senate. I don't
[37:37] know how much experience in the Middle
[37:38] East. On the Democratic side, Vernon
[37:41] Jordan, an excellent lawyer here in
[37:43] Washington, very close to former
[37:44] President Bill Clinton, not a whole lot
[37:46] of Middle Eastern experience. Leon
[37:48] Petta, former congressman, OM Director,
[37:50] White House Chief of Staff under Bill
[37:52] Clinton. William Perry was the Secretary
[37:54] of Defense, knows a lot about the
[37:56] region. Senator, former Senator Chuck
[37:58] Rob of Virginia had a lot of experience
[38:00] in the Middle East, but these are
[38:01] political figures mostly. Would you rely
[38:04] on them to come up with a solution to
[38:07] how to deal with what is clearly such an
[38:09] intractable problem?
[38:10] >> Absolutely. I would I would trust that
[38:12] they would come up with a set of
[38:13] recommendations that the president can
[38:14] look at. Some of the recommendations may
[38:16] be political. It may involve us talking
[38:18] with our so-called enemies, Iran and
[38:21] Syria. It it may or may not involve us
[38:23] withdrawing our troops. I think
[38:25] Democrats will, you know, continue to
[38:27] push for withdrawing our troops, but I
[38:28] trust that their judgment, I trust that
[38:30] they will give the president good advice
[38:31] and and of course members of Congress
[38:33] will have an opportunity to bring them
[38:35] up to the hill and to talk to them.
[38:36] >> What do you think, man?
[38:37] >> There's no question there's enormous
[38:38] experience as you pointed out and and
[38:40] that these are serious people that they
[38:42] are are very taking this responsibility
[38:44] extremely seriously and are moving ahead
[38:46] to do the best they can. But the bottom
[38:47] line is the president is still the
[38:49] commander-in-chief. If we put so much
[38:51] weight and and credibility behind this
[38:54] committee, is he going to be forced to
[38:56] just be led by them? Do they become the
[38:58] commander-in-chief? Do they become our
[38:59] foreign policy um directors? In essence,
[39:02] I think that cannot happen. The
[39:04] president has to have flexibility. He's
[39:06] hearing from the those in the in the
[39:07] field. He's got to rely on the military
[39:09] and our defense department and he's got
[39:11] to work with these people overseas. The
[39:13] Iraqi people and the Iraqi government
[39:14] has to be played a major role. The only
[39:16] option we know is that we cannot just
[39:18] continue to sit down and do nothing. And
[39:20] one thing that this study group will
[39:22] provide us is a roadmap perhaps or even
[39:24] a set of recommendations. It will not
[39:26] end the suffering in Iraq, but at least
[39:28] we'll have something to talk about.
[39:29] >> But does it change the president's
[39:31] policy?
[39:31] >> He can pick and choose. He can pick
[39:33] those recommendations he likes and
[39:34] ignore the ones he doesn't like that
[39:37] that comes with the turf.
[39:38] >> Sure. But if he chooses not to do X, Y,
[39:40] and Z, then you come on TV and you got
[39:42] Wolf Blitzer and everyone else saying,
[39:43] "Why didn't you do this? Shouldn't he
[39:44] have done this? Shouldn't he have done
[39:45] enormous pressure becomes the American
[39:47] people to put on the president.
[39:48] >> Look at the cover of Newsweek magazine
[39:50] and we're going to put it up uh right
[39:52] now. Mkhtara Elsadder, this young Shiite
[39:55] radical cleric uh and Newsweek
[39:57] suggesting uh if you take a look, the
[39:59] most dangerous man in Iraq right now, he
[40:02] holds the key to the prime minister's
[40:04] political block in the Iraqi parliament.
[40:07] Uh if he doesn't want things to happen,
[40:09] things uh clearly are not going to going
[40:11] to happen. The former US military
[40:13] commander in Iraq, Lieutenant General
[40:15] Ricardo Sanchez, he said this on April
[40:18] 12th, 2004. The mission of US forces is
[40:21] to kill or capture Muktada als
[40:26] General Sanchez said, had a lot of
[40:28] American blood on his hands. Uh yet he
[40:31] is a political heavyweight right now in
[40:34] Iraq and our ally, the prime minister,
[40:36] is deeply aligned with him.
[40:38] >> Absolutely. Yeah. But he he wills a lot
[40:39] of power because he has what three
[40:42] ministries uh as well as perhaps 30
[40:45] members of the parliament. But I also
[40:47] believe that they have to bring in some
[40:48] other important sheers. Mr. Cistani who
[40:51] we haven't really heard from he needs to
[40:53] come in and be a be a balancing act
[40:55] toward this uh Darth Vader looking
[40:57] character.
[40:58] >> And and and I'll tell you what the real
[41:00] problem here is. the prime minister a
[41:02] lot of people think of pulling back from
[41:04] coming down and slamming on these
[41:05] insurgents which are allied uh to Solder
[41:08] and also Solder actually said that if
[41:10] the if that he was going to pull his
[41:11] support of the prime minister if the
[41:13] prime minister met with President Bush
[41:15] so what what kind of relationship is
[41:17] going on over here who are we supporting
[41:19] is this government in which the
[41:20] Americans support tied in with the
[41:22] insurgency itself these are problems
[41:24] that I don't know if the commission can
[41:26] work their way through I hope they can
[41:27] but it doesn't seem like good lord might
[41:29] have some trouble with this one if Think
[41:30] those are easy questions. I got a few
[41:32] more for you later in the week. Thanks
[41:33] guys for coming in. Uh coming up, purple
[41:36] stained fingers and blood stained hands
[41:39] are the high hopes for democracy in Iraq
[41:41] in ruins as the nation reels for so much
[41:44] uncontrolled violence and President Bush
[41:46] on a mission to try to calm the crisis.
[41:48] But what if anything will he actually
[41:50] accomplish? It's Jack Cafa's question
[41:52] this hour. He'll be back shortly. You're
[41:54] here in the situation.
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[42:17] Unfortunately, to have a new beginning,
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[42:40] Mel Gibson's Apocalyptto, rated R in
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[42:45] >> You can't always tell something is under
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[42:59] >> My kids call me the finisher.
[43:02] >> Finish up in there.
[43:03] >> Okay.
[43:05] >> Finish your homework.
[43:06] >> Yes.
[43:07] >> Finish your vegetables.
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[45:17] >> Let's check back with Carol for another
[45:19] closer look at some other important
[45:21] stories. Carol,
[45:22] >> hi Wolf. Hello to all of you. What
[45:24] happened? That's what many are asking
[45:25] after a 23-year-old New York man was
[45:27] shot and killed outside of a strip club
[45:29] hours before his wedding. Today, New
[45:32] York Mayor Michael Bloomberg said the
[45:33] five police officers involved appear to
[45:36] have used excessive force. Police let
[45:38] loose some 50 rounds of gunfire on the
[45:40] groom Shawn Bell and his friends,
[45:42] killing Bell. Two men remain in the
[45:44] hospital tonight. An investigation of
[45:46] course now underway. It is being treated
[45:48] as a crime in Missouri. A fire at a
[45:50] group home for the elderly and and
[45:52] mentally ill that killed 10 people.
[45:55] That's according to Missou's governor
[45:56] who says officials want to know if
[45:58] someone intentionally set the fire. The
[46:00] fire burned down the Anderson Guest
[46:01] House in Anderson. Two dozen other
[46:03] people were hurt. Attention Walmart
[46:06] shoppers. Now you can get your
[46:07] prescription drugs from the same place
[46:09] you buy your toiletries and toys.
[46:11] Walmart's extended its super lowcost
[46:13] prescription drug program. Now shoppers
[46:15] in all 50 states can take advantage of
[46:17] the deal to pay just $4 for generic
[46:19] drugs. Walmart began the program back in
[46:21] se in September and less to say Wolf. It
[46:24] was a huge success. Let's look at the
[46:26] headlines right now.
[46:26] >> All right, Carol, thanks for that. Uh
[46:28] President Bush's overseas mission right
[46:30] now underscores a startling turnaround.
[46:33] He had hoped that ousting Saddam Hussein
[46:35] would spur a new democracy in Iraq,
[46:37] which would spread through the Middle
[46:38] East. But as he prepares to head to the
[46:40] region later this week, the president
[46:42] faces the possibility of collaborating
[46:45] with some regimes he believes are
[46:47] desperately in need of political reform.
[46:50] Here's our senior analyst, Jeff
[46:52] Greenfield. Jeff Wolf, the president
[46:54] will be traveling to Jordan later this
[46:56] week where he'll be meeting with Iraq's
[46:57] prime minister. He's traveling with some
[46:59] heavy baggage. the knowledge that the
[47:01] optimistic vision that lay behind the
[47:03] decision to invade Iraq now appears to
[47:05] be in ruins. News reports today say that
[47:08] the Iraq Study Group, that bipartisan
[47:10] commission chaired by former Secretary
[47:12] of State James Baker and ex- Congressman
[47:14] Lee Hamilton, will recommend direct
[47:16] talks with Iran and Syria, as well as a
[47:18] timetable for partial withdrawal of
[47:20] American troops. Both ideas are designed
[47:22] to find some way out of the spiral of
[47:24] sectarian violence in Iraq. here at the
[47:26] Pentagon.
[47:27] >> These ideas represent a stunning change
[47:29] from the ideas that animated the
[47:31] decision to invade Iraq 3 and a half
[47:33] years ago. That decision was not based
[47:35] simply on the belief that Saddam had
[47:37] weapons of mass destruction, but that
[47:39] his removal would change the entire
[47:40] region for the better. America will
[47:43] stand with the Allies of Freedom to
[47:45] support democratic movements in the
[47:47] Middle East and beyond with the ultimate
[47:49] goal of ending tyranny in our world.
[47:53] Specifically, the emergence of a free,
[47:55] stable Iraq would trigger regime change
[47:57] in Iran, where the Mullah's rule despite
[47:59] a strong hunger for a more democratic
[48:01] nation. That change in Iran, in turn,
[48:04] went the theory, would dry up funding
[48:06] for Hezbollah and Islamic Jihad, two of
[48:08] the more militant forces against the
[48:10] idea of a permanent peace with Israel.
[48:13] And Syria as well would feel the hot
[48:15] breath of reform and democratization.
[48:18] With the funding for terror dried up
[48:20] went the theory, the more moderate
[48:22] Palestinians such as Mahmud Abbas would
[48:24] gain the upper hand and prospects for a
[48:26] comprehensive solution would increase.
[48:29] And with reform spreading even to Saudi
[48:31] Arabia, the flow of money from some of
[48:33] that nation's wealthy citizens to
[48:34] extremist groups throughout the Muslim
[48:36] world would slow, maybe even stop. For a
[48:40] time, there were signs that this hope
[48:41] might become real. Three times, millions
[48:44] of Iraqis went to the polls to vote on
[48:46] their future. Sevilla Taleb al-Suhel.
[48:49] Safia's father was assassinated by
[48:51] Saddam's intelligence service. Three
[48:54] days ago in Baghdad, Sophia was finally
[48:57] able to vote for the leaders of her
[48:59] country. And we are honored that she is
[49:02] with us tonight.
[49:04] But as of now at least, all this looks
[49:06] like a false dawn. In Iraq, Shiites and
[49:09] Sunnis appear more determined than ever
[49:11] to strike at each other. And the two
[49:13] nations that were supposed to change or
[49:15] fall after the birth of a stable, free
[49:16] Iraq, Iran and Syria, now seem to have
[49:20] gained in influence. This somber
[49:22] portrait raises one more question. For
[49:24] years, it has been an article of faith
[49:26] among some on the right that signs of
[49:27] American weakness, the pull out from
[49:29] Saigon in 1975, from Beirut in ' 83,
[49:32] from Somalia in 93, the failure to
[49:34] strike back hard against attacks on
[49:36] American interests have encouraged
[49:38] America's enemies. If this theory is
[49:40] correct, then what lesson will they draw
[49:43] from the sight of the United States now
[49:44] preparing to ask for help from two
[49:46] regimes it had once hoped to topple?
[49:50] Wolf.
[49:51] >> Jeff, thank you for that. Jeff
[49:52] Greenfield reporting. And still to come,
[49:54] questions and answers in New York about
[49:56] the police shooting of a groom to be.
[49:58] Did officers cross the line? We'll have
[50:00] a full report. That's coming up in the
[50:02] next hour right here in the situation
[50:04] room. and a leading house Republican
[50:06] still fighting for her political
[50:07] survival nearly 3 weeks after election
[50:09] day. We'll have the latest. Stay with
[50:11] us. You're in the situation.
[50:16] >> Turn left.
[50:17] >> What's a left up here?
[50:18] >> Is that the new BlackBerry from Sprint?
[50:20] >> Yeah. Fast downloads, GPS, my calendar.
[50:22] I'd be lost without it.
[50:23] >> That's cool.
[50:25] >> BlackBerry devices powered by Sprint now
[50:27] with realtime GPS capability.
[50:30] >> So, he's really
[50:31] >> Yeah.
[50:34] It's a left up here.
[50:36] >> Get new BlackBerry devices at Sprint or
[50:38] Nexttel stores or call 18 Sprint Biz and
[50:41] get on the nation's largest mobile
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[50:47] tonight. The Poe who enraged Muslims now
[50:50] faces them headon. And Anderson Cooper
[50:52] is there firsthand. AC 360 tonight. Tune
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[52:27] >> The Northwest has only one concert rock
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[52:39] Experience holiday favorites from around
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[52:57] Former President Jimmy Carter on a rock,
[52:59] bloodshed, and more. Larry King tonight.
[53:05] There he is. Jack Haerty rested,
[53:07] relaxed, ready for another week here in
[53:09] the situation room. Jack,
[53:10] >> I love it here. Thank you, Wolf. The
[53:12] question this hour is, what do you think
[53:13] will come out of these meetings? They're
[53:15] calling them summit meetings later this
[53:17] week in Jordan between Nuriel al- Maliki
[53:19] and President Bush. Tom writes from Old
[53:21] Orchard Beach, Maine, nothing will come
[53:24] out of these meetings. If Bush were
[53:25] inclined to change his approach to Iraq
[53:27] one iota, he would have done so months
[53:29] ago and helped his party maintain
[53:31] control of Congress. Hopefully the new
[53:33] Congress can do what is necessary to get
[53:35] us the hell out of there. Hhabib Romney,
[53:37] West Virginia. If there are participants
[53:39] that are realists in the mix, I believe
[53:41] there's a good chance to make progress
[53:43] in halting this civil war. Syria, Iran,
[53:46] and Turkey must participate as well. In
[53:49] order to quell the Sunni Shiite
[53:50] violence, the US must take a back seat
[53:53] in the negotiations. James and Colorado,
[53:56] nothing of importance will come of this
[53:57] meeting. Both leaders are now
[53:59] irrelevant. The situation belongs to the
[54:01] participants in the civil war and the
[54:03] neighbors of Iraq. Bush has swed the
[54:06] wind and is reaping the whirlwind. He
[54:08] deserves it. He's a fool. Theo Waterl
[54:11] Iowa. I really don't know what to think
[54:13] anymore. I don't trust President Bush,
[54:14] but I do hope this meeting will have a
[54:16] good outcome that encourages Middle East
[54:18] peace, even though such an objective
[54:20] seems miles out of reach at this time.
[54:23] Bob in Idaho writes absolutely nothing.
[54:25] Al Malake has no power. Bush is also
[54:27] powerless on this to do anything to
[54:29] solve the problem. It's just the blind
[54:31] misleading the blind. And finally, Hank
[54:33] in Arlington, Texas. It'll be the same
[54:35] old timewn script about securing
[54:38] freedom, spreading democracy, and all of
[54:40] the progress that's being accomplished
[54:42] in Iraq. A couple of puppets fawning all
[54:44] over each other is more contrived comedy
[54:47] than international politics. Wolf
[54:49] >> Jack, see you in a few minutes. Thank
[54:51] you for that. Still to come, the Iraq
[54:52] Study Group, as it's called, looking for
[54:54] answers. uh and it has a few weeks left
[54:56] to give its advice, but are there any
[54:59] good options right now? And a Republican
[55:01] Congresswoman Deborah Price of Ohio
[55:04] squeaked out a win in her House race,
[55:06] but we'll tell you why some fear win may
[55:09] not necessarily stick. There are
[55:10] developments. We'll be right back.
[55:12] >> Openings will be uh and that
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[56:19] people.
[56:33] >> I saw several girls raped.
[56:34] >> Raped right in front of my eyes. Then
[56:37] they burned them to death.
[56:39] >> They killed my sons,
[56:41] >> then my husband and my brother.
[56:43] >> The government just wants us to
[56:45] disappear.
[56:49] The rest of the world isn't doing
[56:51] anything.
[56:52] >> isn't doing anything.
[56:54] >> Anything.
[57:01] >> Ladies and gentlemen, we'll be landing
[57:02] shortly. For those of you connecting to
[57:04] Atlanta, you'll be at gate A9. Bueno
[57:06] Series A17. Back from a long night out
[57:09] with the entire Tokyo office, capped off
[57:10] by a karaoke rendition of I am woman
[57:12] that certainly no one will forget. and
[57:14] still pulling off that 7 figure deal the
[57:16] next morning without a hitch. You're at
[57:18] gate C21, Denver C10.
[57:21] >> We know why you fly. We're American
[57:23] Airlines.
[57:25] American now flies to Tokyo, Shanghai,
[57:27] and Delhi every day.
[57:30] How do I spend the rest of my year? I
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[57:34] update my gift list for the latest news
[57:35] on who's been nice or naughty. I plan my
[57:38] route for next year and rock out to my
[57:41] favorite tunes.
[57:44] Day and night, I stream videos sent to
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[57:50] Before you know it, it's that time of
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[58:00] CNN video podcast available for download
[58:03] now.
[58:04] >> Can I get some reaction?
[58:04] >> Knee-jerk reaction. reaction when the
[58:07] game gets really bad.
[58:11] >> Download now at cnn.com.
[58:17] >> On our political radar this Monday, an
[58:19] automatic recount has been triggered in
[58:21] Ohio where Republican Congresswoman
[58:23] Deborah Price is fighting to keep her
[58:25] seat. The Franklin County Board of
[58:27] Elections has certified Price the winner
[58:29] over Democrat Mary Joe Kilroy, but the
[58:32] margin is so slim, only about 1,055
[58:35] votes, that the recount is required. The
[58:38] balance of power in the House still
[58:40] stands at 232 seats for Democrats, 198
[58:44] for Republicans. Five races, five races
[58:46] now, 3 weeks after the election, still
[58:49] undecided. If you had any doubts that
[58:51] the 2008 presidential campaign was
[58:54] underway, consider this. The Iowa GOP
[58:57] today announced it will hold its
[58:58] presidential straw poll on Saturday,
[59:00] August 11th of next year. The straw poll
[59:03] is a long-standing tradition in Iowa and
[59:06] one of the early tests of Republican
[59:08] White House hopefuls. Three big states
[59:11] could throw a wrench into the 2008
[59:13] presidential calendar. There are new
[59:15] reports that political leaders in
[59:17] California, Florida, and Michigan are
[59:19] gaining momentum in their efforts to
[59:21] move their primaries earlier shortly
[59:23] after the kickoff primary in New
[59:25] Hampshire. The Boston Globe reporting
[59:27] that Democratic Party leaders are
[59:28] particularly alarmed as they work to
[59:30] protect New Hampshire's first in the
[59:33] nation's status while taking steps to
[59:35] hold earlier contests in South Carolina
[59:38] and Nevada. And remember, for the latest
[59:40] political news at any time, check out
[59:43] our political ticker, cnn.com/ticker.
[59:47] And to our viewers, you're in the
[59:49] situation room where new pictures and
[59:50] information are arriving all the time.
[59:53] Standing by, CNN reporters across the
[59:55] United States and around the world to
[59:57] bring you today's top stories. Happening
[59:59] now, there's an allout sectarian
[60:02] slaughter raging in Iraq. The death toll
[60:05] soaring for Sunnis and Shia alike. But
[60:07] is it a civil war with US troops caught
[60:11] right in the middle?
[60:12] >> Can comedian Michael Richards find
[60:14] redemption after his racial rant? A
[60:17] round of apologies, including an
[60:19] emotional radio appearance with the
[60:21] Reverend Jesse Jackson. We caught it all
[60:23] on camera. And scientists find more
[60:26] traces of radiation after the fatal
[60:28] poisoning of a former Russian spy. The
[60:31] British government calling for calm, but
[60:34] are others at risk right now? I'm Wolf
[60:37] Blitzer. You're in the situation room.
[60:54] As President Bush prepares for top level
[60:56] talks aimed at finding answers to the
[60:58] Iraq crisis, death squads stalk the
[61:01] streets of Iraqi cities, leaving bodies
[61:04] behind, often bound and bearing signs of
[61:06] torture. Day in day out, the killing
[61:09] continues for Sunnis and Shia alike. No
[61:12] place is safe as both sides prepare for
[61:14] an allout struggle. But is it actually a
[61:18] civil war already? Let's begin our
[61:20] coverage in Baghdad with CNN's Ara
[61:24] >> Wolf. The US and Iraqi governments
[61:27] continue to insist that Iraq is not in a
[61:29] civil war. But many Iraqis look at the
[61:32] bloodshed around them and say that the
[61:35] civil war here actually started a long
[61:37] time ago.
[61:42] In the religiously charged atmosphere of
[61:44] Bakuba, blindfolded and handcuffed
[61:47] bodies contorted in death arrive at the
[61:50] morg. The local government said the dead
[61:53] were found scattered through the city.
[61:56] Most Shia, some Sunni, as bodies in this
[62:00] ethnically mixed city piled up for the
[62:02] second day.
[62:06] >> This man rages at anyone who will
[62:08] listen.
[62:11] The government is responsible for this,
[62:13] he shouts. The criminals who are running
[62:16] the government. After Thursday's attack
[62:19] in Sutter City that killed at least 200
[62:21] Shia, the government imposed a 3-day
[62:24] curfew in Baghdad, keeping the body
[62:27] count relatively low. But there was no
[62:30] curfew in Bakuba. And the slaughter went
[62:33] on.
[62:35] >> Why? Why? This woman shouts.
[62:41] The Sutter City bombing, the single
[62:43] deadliest sectarian attack of the war,
[62:45] enraged Shia militias and sent the
[62:48] sectarian bloodletting to a whole new
[62:50] level.
[62:52] As one man told us, out here, it's now
[62:55] each man for himself. Sunni websites
[62:58] urge their so-called brothers to carry
[63:00] weapons and share details about attacks
[63:03] in their neighborhoods. Residents and
[63:06] insurgents trade tips on defense against
[63:08] Shia militias.
[63:10] Prepare your weapons and ammunition. It
[63:13] says with the first bullet you shoot,
[63:16] your fear will go away. Plant bombs and
[63:19] tactically position snipers at entrances
[63:21] to your neighborhoods. Fighters should
[63:24] not waste their bullets. Think about
[63:26] your family and remember that they, the
[63:28] militias, burn children with gasoline.
[63:31] Fact or fiction, the internet traffic is
[63:34] fueling fear, hatred, and encouraging
[63:37] violence.
[63:38] And this video posted on an extremist
[63:41] jihadi website shows a new level of
[63:43] brutality. The mujahedin army from
[63:46] Adamia, a Sunni neighborhood, prepare to
[63:48] behead this man whom they claim is with
[63:51] the Shia Mahu militia. The killing
[63:53] moments later takes place as people
[63:56] record images.
[64:00] >> And throughout Iraq, the agony of loss.
[64:03] The failures of the government now
[64:05] painfully obvious as the country comes
[64:08] even closer to fullscale civil war.
[64:11] OBAMA
[64:15] >> trying to curb the violence topping
[64:17] highlevel agendas this week from Iran to
[64:20] Jordan to Iraq. But few here have any
[64:23] hope that their leaders will come up
[64:25] with a solution. Wol,
[64:28] >> what a piece. Thanks very much, Ara, for
[64:30] that. Uh, what a horrible, horrible
[64:32] story. And amid the slaughter, a debate
[64:34] over semantics. To what degree this
[64:37] conflict fits the definition of a civil
[64:40] war? Let's turn to CNN's Carol Costello.
[64:42] She's watching the story for us. Carol?
[64:44] >> Oh, you know, Wolf Kofan and the UN
[64:46] Secretary General told us today Iraq is
[64:49] almost in a civil war. Others say, "Come
[64:52] on already." If what's happening in Iraq
[64:54] doesn't constitute a civil war, what
[64:56] does?
[64:58] The violence in Baghdad has been
[64:59] seemingly non-stop. Some of the worst
[65:02] between Sunni and Shia. It is neighbor
[65:04] killing neighbor. The violence is being
[65:06] played out in a number of ways with
[65:08] Sunnis lobbing mortars into Shia
[65:10] neighborhoods and Shia retaliating.
[65:12] There are death squads targeting both
[65:14] Shia and Sunnis. We asked our man on the
[65:18] ground what it looked like from his
[65:19] perspective. Anyone who still remains in
[65:23] doubt about whether this is civil war or
[65:25] not is suffering from the luxury of
[65:28] distance.
[65:29] >> Still, the definition of civil war is
[65:31] tricky. In part because it has all kinds
[65:33] of political implications. The Bush
[65:35] administration says Iraq is not in a
[65:38] civil war, in part because most of the
[65:40] violence is centered in Baghdad. But
[65:42] some scholars disagree. By the standards
[65:45] of the research community that studies
[65:47] civil wars systematically, it is
[65:50] >> academics define a civil war as two
[65:52] factions within the same culture
[65:54] fighting for political control and a
[65:56] death toll of at least 1,000. For Dr.
[66:00] Bjinsky, national security adviser under
[66:02] President Jimmy Carter, there also is no
[66:05] doubt.
[66:06] >> I've been saying for years that Iraq has
[66:07] been a low-level civil war. Uh, and I
[66:10] think u it is a civil war. You have
[66:12] different groups vying for political
[66:14] power, which is one, I think, very good
[66:17] definition of a civil war.
[66:19] >> But the battle over the civil war
[66:20] definition is causing debate within news
[66:22] departments across the country. NBC came
[66:25] out today stating it would now call
[66:26] what's happening in Iraq a civil war,
[66:29] despite White House denials. Today, host
[66:32] Matt Lowour announced NBC's decision in
[66:34] a matter-of-fact tone. After careful
[66:37] consideration, NBC News has decided a
[66:39] change in terminology is warranted. That
[66:41] the situation in Iraq with armed
[66:43] militarized factions fighting for their
[66:45] own political agendas can now be
[66:47] characterized as civil war.
[66:49] >> Others are still calling it part of a
[66:51] larger conflict in Iraq between
[66:53] different factions fueled by outside
[66:55] players like al-Qaeda and Iran. But
[66:57] there's no question all are fighting for
[67:00] control of Iraq's fledgling government.
[67:03] And you might have noticed in my story,
[67:05] it was not Dr. Bjinsky who said that
[67:07] Iraq was in a civil war. It was Senator
[67:09] Jack Reid. We apologize for that
[67:10] mistake. As for what CNN is calling the
[67:12] war in Iraq, we are not going to label
[67:14] it as anything. Our proper role is to
[67:16] see what experts, academics, think
[67:18] tankers, diplomats choose to call it
[67:20] before weighing in prematurely. So,
[67:22] Wolf, we leave it to our very savvy
[67:24] viewers to decide for themselves.
[67:25] >> And they are very savvy indeed. Thanks,
[67:28] Carol, for that. A bipartisan commission
[67:30] is crashing to come up with a plan for
[67:32] the United States to successfully end
[67:34] the war in Iraq, but there don't appear
[67:36] to be many good options right now. Let's
[67:38] turn to our senior Pentagon
[67:40] correspondent Jamie McIntary watching
[67:42] the story. Jamie.
[67:43] >> Well, Wolf, a lot of people here in
[67:44] Washington and around the country, in
[67:46] fact, around the world are looking to
[67:48] this commission to come up with a plan
[67:50] to end Iraq's slide into chaos. But I
[67:53] got to tell you, here at the Pentagon,
[67:55] expectations are fairly low.
[67:58] >> For the Iraq study group, coming up with
[68:00] a winning strategy is a chicken or egg
[68:02] proposition. Which comes first? Is more
[68:05] stability needed to allow for fewer US
[68:08] troops, or would fewer US troops force
[68:11] Iraq to create more stability?
[68:13] >> Every course of action has a high degree
[68:15] of risk and is not guaranteed to
[68:17] succeed. But I think that there has to
[68:20] be a process that will force the Iraqis
[68:23] to make the difficult decisions they've
[68:25] so far refrained from making.
[68:27] >> A draft proposal now being debated by
[68:29] the Iraq study group reportedly frames
[68:31] the argument around the wisdom of a
[68:34] phased withdrawal as well as engaging
[68:36] Iran and Syria in direct talks. The
[68:39] problem is US commanders, including top
[68:41] commander, General John Abisade, have
[68:43] already rejected the idea of either
[68:45] adding a lot more American troops or any
[68:48] precipitous pull out. So any radical
[68:51] shift in strategy risks running
[68:53] roughshot over the best advice of the US
[68:55] military.
[68:56] >> I think we're setting up an incredible
[68:59] clash between the senior uniform
[69:01] military and our civilian community. To
[69:05] avoid that, many observers believe the
[69:06] study group will advocate a gradual pull
[69:08] out not linked to any firm timetable
[69:11] along with increased training for Iraqi
[69:13] forces. That option is also favored by
[69:15] America's closest ally, Great Britain,
[69:18] which is anxiously eyeing the door. I
[69:20] can tell you that by the end of next
[69:23] year, I expect numbers of British forces
[69:25] in Iraq to be significantly lower by a
[69:28] matter of thousands.
[69:30] The planning for this has been going on
[69:31] for some months. Like the US, Britain
[69:34] says future troop reductions would be
[69:36] conditions permitting.
[69:38] >> Now, the Iraq Study Group, five
[69:39] Democrats, five Republicans are meeting
[69:42] this week in Washington. Their meetings
[69:44] are shrouded in secrecy, but whatever
[69:46] they come up with, Wolf, they are
[69:47] expected to present to Congress before
[69:49] it goes home for the holiday recess
[69:51] sometime early in December. Wolf,
[69:54] >> thanks very much, Jamie, for that.
[69:55] Jaime's at the Pentagon. President Bush,
[69:57] meanwhile, on his personal search for an
[69:59] Iraq solution. He's now in Estonia ahead
[70:02] of a na NATO summit in Latvia. After
[70:05] that, a face-to-face meeting with Iraq's
[70:06] Prime Minister Nuriel Maliki in Jordan.
[70:09] Our talks with Iraq's more hostile
[70:11] neighbors on the agenda. Let's turn to
[70:14] our White House correspondent Suzan
[70:16] Malvo. She's traveling with the
[70:17] president in Estonia. Suzan
[70:21] Wolf, President Bush arrived in Talon,
[70:22] Estonia. This is really his first stop
[70:24] and of course that highstakes diplomatic
[70:26] offensive. Next, he heads to Ria Latafia
[70:29] for the NATO summit. But as you know,
[70:30] all eyes are on those critically
[70:33] important talks between President Bush
[70:34] and the Iraqi Prime Minister Nuri Al-
[70:36] Maliki on Thursday when they meet in
[70:38] Aman, Jordan. Now, already National
[70:40] Security Adviser Steven Hadley aboard
[70:42] Air Force One gave somewhat of a preview
[70:45] of that meeting. He said first the two
[70:47] leaders would discuss whether or not it
[70:49] was appropriate for the United States to
[70:51] reach out and to talk to its nemesis
[70:53] Iran. regarding Iraq. Hadley saying that
[70:56] he believed Maliki the preference would
[70:59] be for the Iraqis to reach out to Iran
[71:01] and Syria that they would take the lead.
[71:04] Uh secondly, Hadley called this level of
[71:06] violence in Iraq a new phase but denied
[71:10] that it constituted a civil war. And
[71:13] third, he said that they would not be
[71:14] discussing US troop levels, but rather
[71:16] how to increase Iraqi troops and how to
[71:20] do that as quickly as possible. Wolf, as
[71:22] you know, the credibility and legacy of
[71:24] these two leaders is certainly at stake,
[71:26] but Bush administration officials are
[71:28] setting the bar very low for these
[71:30] discussions in case the violence and of
[71:32] course the situation in Iraq gets worse
[71:34] before it gets better. Wolf,
[71:36] >> let me just get the timeline straight,
[71:38] Suzanne. Tonight he's in Estonia.
[71:40] Tomorrow he goes to the NATO summit in
[71:42] Latia. And then Wednesday he flies to
[71:44] Jordan for meetings with King Abdullah
[71:46] of Jordan and Nuriel Maliki. What?
[71:48] Wednesday or Thursday?
[71:51] Wednesday is when he arrives in Aman
[71:53] Jordan and then he will have dinner uh
[71:56] with King Abdullah of Jordan and then
[71:58] it's Thursday when he actually holds
[72:00] those talks with Maliki.
[72:01] >> Suzan Malvo will be watching every
[72:03] Washington we'll get him when he gets
[72:05] back here as well. Thanks Suzanne.
[72:07] She'll be traveling with the president
[72:09] all of this week. Jack Caerty won't be
[72:11] traveling with the president all of this
[72:13] week but he's here in the situation room
[72:14] all of this week. Yeah,
[72:16] >> that shouldn't surprise you that I
[72:17] haven't been invited to travel with the
[72:19] president. Outgoing Defense Secretary
[72:21] Donald Rumsfeld may be out of the
[72:23] spotlight these days, but he's still in
[72:24] the hot seat. Former US Army Brigadier
[72:27] General Janice Carpinsky told a Spanish
[72:30] newspaper over the weekend. She saw a
[72:32] memo signed by Rumsfeld allowing
[72:35] civilian contractors to use harsh
[72:38] interrogation techniques on detainees at
[72:40] Abu Greb prison. According to the
[72:43] article, she also said Rumsfeld
[72:45] authorized army personnel to take in
[72:48] inmates at that prison without
[72:49] registering them. Both those actions
[72:51] violate the Geneva Conventions.
[72:54] Carpinsky, who ran Abu Greb until the
[72:57] scandal broke wide open with those
[72:58] famous pictures we saw, was eventually
[73:01] demoted from her post in 2004. She says
[73:04] she was made a scapegoat. Karpinsky was
[73:07] later removed from active duty on
[73:09] unrelated charges. Since then, she has
[73:11] openly criticized tactics used by
[73:14] Rumsfeld and Company. Last week, she
[73:16] said she'd be willing to testify against
[73:18] Rumsfeld in a war crimes investigation
[73:20] that could result from a lawsuit that
[73:23] was filed by civil rights groups in
[73:24] Germany. So, here's the question this
[73:26] hour. Will Karpinsky's claims about
[73:29] Donald Rumsfeld fall on deaf ears in
[73:31] Washington DC? Email your thoughts to
[73:34] Caertify File at CNN.com or go to
[73:37] CNN.com/caffertyfile.
[73:39] Wolf Jack, thank you for that. Up ahead,
[73:41] comedian Michael Richards trying to make
[73:44] amends for his racially charged rant.
[73:46] CNN caught up with Richards. We're going
[73:48] to play you that interview. Also, the
[73:51] mystery deepens over the fatal radiation
[73:53] poisoning of a former Russian spy in
[73:55] London. We'll have the latest. Plus,
[73:58] Venezuela's president ramping up his
[74:00] anti-US rhetoric ahead of his country's
[74:02] election. Stay with us. You're in the
[74:05] situation.
[74:07] Morning everybody.
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[76:56] >> The spy is dead, but the mystery
[76:58] surrounding him is growing by the hour.
[77:01] So are concerns about people who may
[77:03] have been exposed to the rare
[77:04] radioactive poison that killed him.
[77:07] CNN's Paula Newton is in London with the
[77:09] latest. Paula.
[77:11] >> Wolf. Authorities here admit this is one
[77:13] of the most challenging investigations
[77:15] they've ever had to deal with. and add
[77:16] to that a public alert by anyone who was
[77:19] at a restaurant or a hotel where
[77:21] Alexander Lethano was on November 1st.
[77:24] There are three people that are now
[77:26] undergoing further tests for radiation
[77:28] poisoning.
[77:30] His doctors called it chemical torture.
[77:33] And in the hours before his death,
[77:34] former Russian spy Alexander Lethano
[77:37] bared the scars of it. His organs
[77:39] failing, his body surrendering, but not
[77:42] his mind. until the last he fingered the
[77:46] Kremlin. A charge echoed by his father.
[77:50] >> This regime is a mortal danger to the
[77:52] world. He fought this regime. He
[77:55] understood it. And this regime got him.
[77:58] What actually got him, investigators
[78:00] say, is a rare radioactive element
[78:02] called pelonium 210. And now trying to
[78:05] figure out when and how he was poisoned
[78:08] is turning into a sensational who done
[78:10] it. His friends say the palonium should
[78:12] be like a fingerprint for police. It
[78:14] implicates Russian intelligence
[78:16] executing the government's orders.
[78:19] >> We uh know that the Russian regime has
[78:23] evolved into a kind of authoritarian
[78:26] dictatorship by now with no checks and
[78:28] balances.
[78:30] Russian President Vladimir Putin denies
[78:32] any and all involvement.
[78:35] I hope that British authorities would
[78:39] not contribute to instigation of
[78:41] political scandals. Has nothing to do
[78:44] with reality.
[78:45] >> It's now up to Scotland Yard to sort all
[78:48] of this out. Investigators are combing
[78:50] through Lit Vanenko's North London home,
[78:52] the sushi restaurant where he had lunch
[78:54] on November 1st, and the hotel where
[78:57] earlier that same day he met with two
[78:59] Russian men. All the sites are now
[79:01] contaminated with radiation and
[79:03] authorities are asking people who may
[79:05] have been affected to come forward. The
[79:08] British government says of the 500
[79:10] people who have so far been identified,
[79:13] three are being checked for possible
[79:15] radiation poisoning. It seems Britain's
[79:18] now need some reassurance.
[79:20] >> The police are continuing with an
[79:22] extensive examination of CCTV footage to
[79:25] trace possible witnesses to examine Mr.
[79:28] and Yenko's movements at relevant times,
[79:31] including when he first became ill.
[79:34] >> But police remain challenged by this
[79:36] bizarre murder that now threatens to
[79:38] strain relations between Britain and
[79:40] Russia. As a former secret agent,
[79:43] Leonenko made plenty of enemies. He was
[79:45] one of Putin's harshest critics in the
[79:47] last few years, but in truth, there were
[79:51] many people with the means and the
[79:53] motive to silence him. Wolf
[79:55] >> Paula, thank you for that. Uh, the CIA,
[79:57] by the way, is looking for a few good
[79:59] spies. Their latest recruiting
[80:01] technique, an online quiz aimed at
[80:02] luring younger, newer agents. Are you a
[80:05] daring thrillseker or an impressive
[80:08] mastermind? Our internet reporter Abby
[80:10] Tatton with some answers. Abby
[80:12] >> Wolf, this is a tongue-in-cheek
[80:14] personality test from the CIA where
[80:16] you're going to be ask answering
[80:17] questions on what kind of superpower you
[80:19] would most like or what mode of
[80:21] transportation you prefer. And based on
[80:24] whether you say flying or submarines or
[80:26] whatever you answer, it will give you a
[80:28] result. No, being labeled a curious
[80:30] adventure isn't going to affect your
[80:32] chances either way of employment at the
[80:35] CIA. CIA spokesman Tom Crispel says this
[80:38] is just an entertaining way to drive
[80:40] people to the recruiting website and to
[80:42] dispel a few myths about what it's like
[80:44] to work for the CIA. Apparently,
[80:46] according to the site, it's not all
[80:48] tuxedos and car chases. In November of
[80:51] 2004, President Bush ordered an increase
[80:54] in the ranks of CIA operators and
[80:56] analysts of 50%, a process that Chris
[80:59] Bell said was well underway. The efforts
[81:02] have evolved through print ads as well
[81:04] as radio and television ads. This is the
[81:07] CIA's bug ad that ran on the Discovery
[81:10] Channel and an effort to boost
[81:11] recruitment in the science and
[81:13] technology divisions of the CIA. Chris
[81:15] Bell says applications have been up
[81:17] every single year since 2001. It's
[81:20] September 11th. Right now that reaching
[81:22] a record of 135,000 in 2006. Wolf
[81:26] >> Abby, thanks very much. Abby Tatton on
[81:28] the CIA. Coming up, there's a growing
[81:31] consensus among a lot of observers that
[81:33] Iraq has already fallen into an allout
[81:36] civil war. We'll talk about that and
[81:37] more with our world affairs analyst, the
[81:40] former defense secretary, William Cohen.
[81:42] Plus, a New York City man killed hours
[81:44] before his wedding in a hail of police
[81:46] gunfire. Now, the mayor, Michael
[81:48] Bloomberg, calling the case unacceptable
[81:51] and inexplicable. Stay with us. You're
[81:54] in the situation.
[81:58] AC3 tonight. The pope who enraged
[82:01] Muslims now faces them head on. And
[82:03] Anderson Cooper is there firsthand. AC
[82:06] 360 tonight. 10.
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[84:47] >> Venezuela's presidential election is
[84:49] less than a week away. And that has the
[84:51] incumbent Hugo Chavez stepping up his
[84:53] anti-US rhetoric with fresh attacks on
[84:56] his favorite target. That would be
[84:58] President Bush. CNN's Brian Todd joining
[85:00] us from the newsroom with more. Brian
[85:02] >> Wolf. The foundation of the Chavez
[85:04] re-election campaign is his opposition
[85:06] to Washington on just about everything.
[85:08] And as he told a giant crowd at a
[85:09] campaign rally, a vote for him is a vote
[85:12] against George W. Bush.
[85:15] >> On December 3rd, we're going to defeat
[85:17] the most powerful empire on Earth by
[85:19] knockout. Ugo Chavez, firing up hundreds
[85:23] of thousands of people who filled the
[85:24] streets of the Venezuelan capital for a
[85:26] re-election rally.
[85:30] He used the opportunity to bash his
[85:32] favorite target, President Bush, noting
[85:34] that leaders who have supported Bush in
[85:36] the past paid a price, citing former
[85:38] Spanish Prime Minister Jose Maria Oznar.
[85:41] He lost an election days after bomb
[85:43] attacks by Islamic extremists in Madrid
[85:46] killed nearly 200 people.
[85:50] And another one that has turned into
[85:51] space dust is Oznar. Oznar and Bush have
[85:54] turned into space dust. Chavez is widely
[85:58] favored to win a third term when
[85:59] Venezuelans head to the polls this
[86:01] Sunday. A new AP Ipsos poll shows him
[86:04] far ahead of opposition candidate Manuel
[86:06] Rosales, 59% to 27%. Those numbers
[86:11] indicating that Chavez's fiery
[86:13] anti-American rhetoric sits well with
[86:15] many Venezuelans. The same poll shows
[86:17] 63% of those asked have a negative view
[86:20] of President Bush, while 55% have
[86:23] negative views of the US in general. But
[86:25] there's more than bush bashing fueling
[86:27] his popularity. Chavez is a hero among
[86:30] many of his country's poor who see him
[86:32] as responding to their needs. And
[86:34] there's also broad support from
[86:36] Venezuela's burgeoning bureaucracy. It's
[86:39] doubled in size under Chavez with some 2
[86:41] million workers now in a country of just
[86:44] 26 million people. Critics charge that
[86:46] civil servants are facing pressure to
[86:48] back Chavez. But whatever the source of
[86:51] his support, Chavez remains almost
[86:53] certain to win another six-year term.
[86:59] >> No one can take victory from us. We are
[87:00] going to win on the 3rd of December
[87:02] without any doubt.
[87:05] >> And Mr. Chavez says he will dedicate his
[87:07] victory to his close ally, Cuba's Fidel
[87:10] Castro, the 50th anniversary of Castro's
[87:12] return to that island and the beginning
[87:14] of Castro's revolution. Wolf
[87:16] >> Brian Todd, thanks for that. And to our
[87:18] viewers, you're on the situation room
[87:20] where new pictures and information are
[87:21] arriving all the time. Happening right
[87:24] now, the president of Iraq meets the
[87:26] president of Iran. Iraq's Jalal
[87:28] Talibani. Iran's Mahmud Ahmad Nagad met
[87:31] in Thran to discuss Iraq's future.
[87:33] Iran's state-run media saying Talibani
[87:36] talked about the need for Iran's help in
[87:39] squashing the violence in Iraq. Israel
[87:42] offering to release Palestinian
[87:44] prisoners if Palestinian militants free
[87:47] an Israeli soldier kidnapped 5 months
[87:49] ago. Prime Minister Auda making the
[87:52] offer today. It comes as Israel trying
[87:54] to restart peace talks with the
[87:56] Palestinians. And is it a crime? In
[88:00] Missouri, a fire at a group home for the
[88:02] elderly and mentally ill that killed 10
[88:05] people is being treated as one. That
[88:07] according to Missouri's governor who
[88:09] says officials want to know if someone
[88:10] intentionally set the fire. I'm Wolf
[88:13] Blitzer. You're in the situation room.
[88:32] Right now in New York, friends and
[88:34] family who were supposed to be
[88:35] celebrating one man's wedding are now
[88:37] mourning his death. There's fresh
[88:39] fallout from over the 23-year-old who
[88:42] was shot and killed literally hours
[88:44] before he was to marry the mother of his
[88:46] children. Mary Snow standing by in New
[88:49] York with the latest details. Mary
[88:51] >> Wolf as anger builds over this weekend's
[88:53] police shooting, the mayor of New York
[88:55] reached out to black community leaders,
[88:57] vowing a full and fair investigation.
[89:01] They emerge united for a press
[89:03] conference, but behind closed doors, an
[89:05] insider described the atmosphere among
[89:07] community leaders as electric and heated
[89:09] at times. Mayor Mike Bloomberg and
[89:11] police commissioner Ray Kelly met with
[89:13] clergy members and elected officials to
[89:15] deal with the outrage over Saturday's
[89:17] police shooting. Five officers fired 50
[89:19] shots, killing groomed to be Shawn Bell
[89:21] and injuring his two friends. The men
[89:23] were later found to be unarmed.
[89:25] >> It sounds to me like excessive force was
[89:28] used, but that's up to the district
[89:29] attorney to find out.
[89:31] >> While the details are still under
[89:33] investigation, police say the men struck
[89:35] an undercover officer while on foot and
[89:37] hit a police van twice. But another
[89:39] question being raised in this case is
[89:41] whether race played a factor. The police
[89:43] shooting evoked memories of Ahmed Dio,
[89:46] an unarmed African immigrant killed by
[89:48] police in 1999. The cops who shot him 41
[89:51] times were white and they were all
[89:53] acquitted.
[89:54] >> This is very, very unusual and reminds
[89:58] me of a tragedy that took place with Mr.
[90:01] Dialo. And uh we can't have that.
[90:05] >> Compared to the 1999 shooting, one
[90:07] difference is the racial makeup of the
[90:08] officers. Two are white, two are black,
[90:11] and one is Hispanic. Former New York
[90:13] City Mayor David Dinkens says another
[90:15] big difference is the fact that
[90:16] Bloomberg is meeting directly with black
[90:18] community leaders who felt shut out in
[90:20] 1999.
[90:22] >> The difference between then and now is
[90:24] this uh day and night.
[90:27] >> Rudy Giuliani was mayor at the time of
[90:28] Dio's death. Dinkens was highly critical
[90:31] of him and was among black leaders who
[90:33] took to the streets. We were outraged.
[90:36] And so in order to to focus further
[90:40] attention on it, I and Congressman
[90:42] Charles Wrangle and others, Al Sharpton,
[90:45] we were all arrested at one police
[90:48] plaza.
[90:49] >> Then as now, Reverend Al Sharpton is at
[90:51] the forefront calling for justice. He
[90:53] agrees dealing with city officials has
[90:55] changed, but
[90:57] >> it is better tone, but will it lead to
[91:00] results? We're not just looking to talk.
[91:02] We're looking for action.
[91:05] >> The shooting is now being investigated
[91:07] by the Queen's District Attorney who is
[91:09] meeting with family members of the
[91:11] victims and leaders as we speak. Wolf.
[91:13] >> All right, Mary. Thanks very much, Mary
[91:15] Snow reporting.
[91:20] And there's a disturbing story coming in
[91:22] from Atlanta. Let's turn to CNN's Carol
[91:24] Costello for that. What are we learning,
[91:26] Carol?
[91:27] >> Well, you know, Wolf, we were telling
[91:28] you about that 92year-old woman shot to
[91:30] death by police in Atlanta. Well, now
[91:32] police there are asking the FBI to
[91:34] conduct an independent investigation of
[91:36] that drug raid shooting. The police
[91:38] chief Richard Pennington has announced
[91:39] the narcotics unit is being placed on
[91:42] paid leave during the probe. Of course,
[91:44] we'll continue to follow this story and
[91:46] bring you the latest details that we get
[91:48] them. But from what we understand,
[91:49] police have said that 92-year-old woman
[91:51] pulled a gun and that's why they opened
[91:53] fire. But again, now the FBI is going to
[91:56] get involved. Wolf,
[91:57] >> we'll stay on top of this story as well.
[91:58] Carol, thanks for that. Uh, coming up,
[92:01] our interview with the comedian Michael
[92:03] Richards on an apology PR blitz. Are
[92:06] African-American leaders receptive to
[92:09] his regrets over his racial tirade?
[92:11] We'll hear what he has to say. Stay with
[92:13] us. You're in the situation.
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[94:48] Larry King tonight. Former President
[94:50] Jimmy Carter. Once he helped broker
[94:52] Middle East peace, now he sheds light on
[94:55] the unpopular war in Iraq. Democrats
[94:57] taking over Congress and more. Larry
[94:59] King Live tonight 9 Eastern, only on
[95:02] CNN.
[95:05] >> Now to some new developments concerning
[95:06] the actor known as Kramer in the
[95:08] Seinfeld sitcom and his recent racist
[95:11] rant. Michael Richards is saying he's
[95:13] sorry once again. He appeared on the
[95:15] Reverend Jesse Jackson's nationally
[95:17] syndicated radio program yesterday and
[95:19] Richards says he's not a racist. CNN's
[95:23] entertainment correspondent Broo
[95:24] Anderson caught up with the actor right
[95:26] after his appearance on that program.
[95:30] >> What's your next step?
[95:31] >> Uh personal work. Deep personal work
[95:34] >> as in therapy, psychology.
[95:37] >> Yes. To get to get to the depths of my
[95:39] um of anger, the issues of anger. Have
[95:42] you seen it? Have you seen someone or
[95:44] are you going to see someone?
[95:45] >> Yes, I'm in I'm in I'm seeing someone
[95:47] now.
[95:47] >> Okay. Um after the incident, 24 hours
[95:51] later, you were allowed back on stage
[95:52] because
[95:53] >> I was asked to come back to get back on
[95:55] the horse and that was I was an attempt
[95:57] to recover my my sense of showmanship in
[96:00] the course of my work and uh uh and
[96:05] that's why I went back Saturday night. I
[96:08] was asked to come back Saturday night by
[96:09] the club owner. Uh, and that was a
[96:12] creative matter, an artistic matter to
[96:14] see if I could keep moving as an artist.
[96:16] >> And the club owner said, um, you had had
[96:19] told him you were going to apologize
[96:20] that night, but you didn't.
[96:21] >> No, no, I I did not. That that's that's
[96:25] um that that hurts me. That hurts me. I
[96:28] was uh told to come back and work and
[96:31] get back on the horse, so to speak, and
[96:34] that hurts me. Broo, I think what was
[96:36] meaningful today, I was reached out to I
[96:40] reached out to Mel Watt, chair of the
[96:42] Congressional Black Caucus, and to Dr.
[96:45] Wade and to Willis Evers and Hassan,
[96:47] NAACP leaders to try to assess
[96:52] what happened and the ramifications of
[96:55] what happened
[96:56] >> cuz clearly this was a a meltdown and it
[96:59] was uh painful and traumatic
[97:03] and in greater measure for children far
[97:05] beyond the scene. And one thing come out
[97:09] of this is challenging all artists and
[97:11] media to stop broadcasting the word
[97:14] because it's hate language and it's
[97:16] divisive and painful to people and then
[97:19] he agreed to deal with his own internal
[97:24] stuff he has to work through. I really
[97:26] have some other artists like Paul Mo who
[97:28] has worked with Michael to talk with him
[97:30] because the appears now the bigger issue
[97:33] for us frankly is this is the rock that
[97:36] hit the water. The concentric circles
[97:39] are why we had Senior Hall on Nighttime
[97:44] coming 15 years ago, now zero. We had
[97:47] Bill Cosby show number one 20 years ago,
[97:50] now zero. Uh we had um uh Max Robinson
[97:55] on ABC News World Night Zero. Now we
[97:58] have more cables and with the exception
[98:01] of Robin Robertson, ABC and Soul Dad,
[98:04] all day, all night, all white. So this
[98:08] means he is a symbol but that this is
[98:09] not an aberration. We want to deal with
[98:11] the we want we intend to meet a some
[98:14] artists in the use of this porative word
[98:16] but more than that we intend to meet
[98:18] with these major media outlets on their
[98:21] opening up again becoming more
[98:23] multicultural
[98:25] more multivation more diverse in their
[98:28] writers and producers and art form. Do
[98:32] you see yourself as a symbol of this
[98:34] bigger issue now?
[98:37] >> Perhaps a voice that got it in motion.
[98:40] >> How do you think this went this morning?
[98:42] >> Okay.
[98:42] >> Uh very well. The African-American
[98:45] community is um I mean the leadership
[98:48] has has uh opened up the healing.
[98:51] >> Mhm.
[98:51] >> And for that I'm grateful.
[98:55] >> And today the Reverend Jesse Jackson
[98:56] attended a separate news conference on
[98:58] the matter. He's calling on the entire
[99:00] entertainment industry to stop using the
[99:02] racial slur Michael Richard used. And
[99:05] the owner of the Laugh Factory is
[99:07] already listening. That's the forum
[99:10] where Richard used the racial racial
[99:12] slur in a news conference within the
[99:13] past hour. The owner says he's banning
[99:16] comedians from using that word on stage.
[99:19] We'll stay on top of the story. Still to
[99:21] come, defining the Iraq conflict. Is it
[99:24] a civil war? And whatever it is, can
[99:26] Iran, yes, Iran, make a difference? I'll
[99:29] ask a key member of our CNN Security
[99:31] Council, the former defense secretary,
[99:33] William Cohen. And the sounds of cancer,
[99:36] can you beat the disease by listening
[99:39] for it? Stay with us.
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[102:33] Welcome back. President Bush's attention
[102:35] this week is focused on possible
[102:37] solutions to the violence in Iraq, which
[102:38] may now be, according to some, a
[102:41] full-fledged civil war. Could one of the
[102:43] president's other foes, namely Iran,
[102:45] help provide an answer? Joining us now
[102:48] are world affairs analyst, the former
[102:49] defense secretary William Cohen.
[102:51] chairman and CEO of the Cohen Group here
[102:54] in Washington. This image is startling.
[102:57] The Iranian leader Mahmud Ahmad Jad
[103:00] warmly embracing the visiting president
[103:02] of Iraq, Jalal Talibani. What do you
[103:05] make of this? Can Iraq, I guess that's
[103:07] the bottom line, play a useful role in
[103:10] stopping this warfare? Well, first it
[103:12] would be somewhat hypocritical on the
[103:13] part of the United States if in fact the
[103:15] Baker uh study group, the Iraq study
[103:18] group is going to recommend that the
[103:19] United States talk to Iran and Syria.
[103:22] It' be rather hypocritical for us to say
[103:23] that the elected officials u the purple
[103:26] finger um recipients of uh of the the
[103:28] vote of the the Iraqi people could not
[103:30] meet with Iran. The difficulty with the
[103:33] meeting, as far as I'm concerned, is it
[103:35] looks as if it's part of the
[103:36] protectionist racket. In other words,
[103:38] Iran and Syria, especially Iran, have
[103:40] been helping to fuel this insurgency,
[103:42] have been funding uh some of the
[103:43] militias, and now they say, "We'll, you
[103:45] know, basically we'll burn your house
[103:46] down unless you pay us to protect you."
[103:48] And that's the equivalent of what
[103:49] they're talking about now. We will not
[103:51] uh we will continue to fuel this
[103:53] insurgency unless we become part of the
[103:55] solution. So, it's from a a a perception
[103:58] point of view, it looks as if they are
[104:00] in the driver's seat, and certainly the
[104:02] Iraqi government is not. I mean, is this
[104:04] why the United States went to war in
[104:06] Iraq to remove Saddam Hussein to elevate
[104:08] Iran and to make Iran a regional player?
[104:11] >> Well, I think it's important for the
[104:13] United States to talk to Iran. But the
[104:15] question is on whose terms? We have the
[104:17] other issue, namely their continuation
[104:19] of the pursuit of nuclear weapons. As
[104:21] I've said before, I think what we have
[104:23] to do is to get the key members of the
[104:25] international community as such, the
[104:27] five permanent members of the security
[104:29] council to come down hard on Iran. Uh,
[104:31] and then that would give at least the
[104:32] United States some leverage. At this
[104:34] point, our leverage seems to be help us
[104:36] out because we have the only leverage
[104:38] you have is we're going to leave and
[104:39] you'll have a burning fuse on your
[104:41] doorstep. So therefore, come in and help
[104:43] save us from that. That's not a great
[104:44] position for us to be in.
[104:46] >> James Baker, who runs this Iraq study
[104:48] group together with former Democratic
[104:49] Congressman Lee Hamilton, five
[104:51] Democrats, five Republicans, part of it.
[104:53] But I remember I covered James Baker
[104:55] when he was Secretary of State during
[104:57] the first Bush presidency. He loved
[104:59] these international conferences, the
[105:01] Madrid conference on the Middle East, a
[105:04] big conference before the US went to war
[105:06] to liberate Kuwait. I suspect, and
[105:09] correct me if if if you disagree, uh
[105:11] he's going to come up with a proposal
[105:13] for a big international conference. And
[105:15] we see the advance work going on right
[105:17] now. Cheney goes to Saudi Arabia, the
[105:19] president's going to Jordan, they're
[105:21] talking to Hosni Mubarak. What do you
[105:23] sense of this?
[105:24] >> I think it's going to be a political
[105:26] recommendation. And after all the the
[105:28] various members of that group are basic
[105:30] political veterans who have to make
[105:33] political have had political judgments
[105:35] in and made them in the past. So it's
[105:37] going to be a regional approach saying
[105:39] that's part of the key element. I think
[105:41] they will talk in terms of benchmarks,
[105:43] not in terms of timetables. And I think
[105:45] that they will probably give cover or
[105:47] hold the Democratic party for a limited
[105:50] time. But I think the longer this goes
[105:52] on without some reduction in American
[105:54] force structure, then the Democrats will
[105:56] then be accused of being part of the
[105:57] problem, not part of the solution. So
[105:59] it's going to be a difficult uh
[106:01] negotiation as such. But I think it's
[106:03] going to say, let's have a regional
[106:05] approach. Let's include the Middle East
[106:06] peace process. Let's get the Israelis
[106:08] talking to the Palestinians. Let's talk
[106:09] to the Iranians and the Syrians and then
[106:12] let's talk in terms of benchmarks and
[106:13] what Maliki has to do to get control
[106:16] over the internal divisions in their
[106:18] society. Otherwise, we're going to
[106:20] accelerate that departure out.
[106:21] >> And a key question, where will that
[106:23] international conference take place? My
[106:25] bet Geneva, Switzerland, but we'll see.
[106:27] Uh people are already speculating on
[106:29] that front. Thanks very much for coming
[106:30] in.
[106:30] >> Good to be here. Well,
[106:31] >> let's check in with Lou Dobs to see
[106:33] what's coming up right at the top of the
[106:34] hour, Lou.
[106:35] >> Well, thank you very much. Coming up at
[106:37] 6 p.m. here on CNN, more of our troops
[106:40] have been killed in Iraq. The violence
[106:42] there is escalating to its worst level
[106:44] of this war. We'll have reports from
[106:46] both the Pentagon and of course Baghdad.
[106:49] Three of the country's most
[106:50] distinguished. Former military leaders
[106:52] join us to assess future US policy in
[106:55] Iraq. Also tonight, not only does the
[106:58] United States have a staggering record
[107:00] trade deficit with China, it now turns
[107:02] out that the Bush administration is
[107:04] facing strong criticism for helping
[107:06] train Chinese police. That's right, a
[107:09] democracy helping a totalitarian state.
[107:12] Train its police. We'll have that
[107:14] special report. And the rise of leftist
[107:16] leaders across Latin America. What is
[107:18] the US policy in this hemisphere? Is
[107:20] there a US policy? We'll find out. and
[107:23] two of the country's foremost experts on
[107:25] Russia are joining us to discuss the
[107:27] Levinko assassination and future US
[107:30] policy toward Putin's new Russia. Please
[107:33] join us for all of that at the top of
[107:34] the hour here on CNN. Back to you, Wolf.
[107:37] What do you think, Lou? Uh you're you're
[107:39] always outspoken on this debate of
[107:41] whether or not this is already a civil
[107:43] war in Iraq right now. It's significant
[107:46] because the American public didn't
[107:48] bargain for US troops getting involved
[107:50] in a civil war. Uh Wolf, I try to be
[107:53] outspoken on those issues which I've
[107:54] carefully analyzed and know a great
[107:57] deal. Uh the fact is I have not analyzed
[108:00] whether it is important to call this a
[108:02] civil war or sectarian violence. All I
[108:05] know is that 3,000 of our troops have
[108:07] been killed. Uh 20,000 more have been
[108:10] wounded. Half of them very seriously so
[108:12] seriously they could not return to
[108:14] action. And I still don't know what the
[108:16] US policy and strategy is in Iraq for
[108:19] victory. I think against that the
[108:21] semantics are frankly illrelevant. Wol
[108:24] >> Lou, thanks very much. Lou, coming up in
[108:26] a few minutes right at the top of the
[108:28] hour, still ahead here in the situation
[108:30] room, a former top military official
[108:32] reportedly makes a scurless allegation
[108:34] against defense secretary Donald
[108:36] Rumsfeld. And Jack Caerty wants to know
[108:39] if her claims will fall on deaf ears
[108:41] here in Washington. Jack, we'll be back
[108:43] with your thoughts. Stay with us. You're
[108:45] in the situation.
[108:48] Heat. Heat.
[109:19] Why aren't middle class wages going up?
[109:21] Why does it take two incomes just to get
[109:24] by?
[109:24] >> Lou Dos tonight. CNN coming up next.
[109:27] >> It's time for an
[109:29] >> All State and K103 welcome the Moscow
[109:32] Ballet to perform two special ballets.
[109:34] The Great Russian Nutcracker December
[109:36] 21st through 23rd at the Elsenor Theater
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[109:40] Snitzer Concert Hall December 28th and
[109:42] 29th. Purchase tickets to the Nutcracker
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[109:50] All State presents the Moscow Ballet's
[109:52] Great Russian Nutcracker and Cinderella.
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[109:56] Comcast, Lloyd Center, and K103.
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[111:31] Anderson Cooper live from Turkey tonight
[111:33] 10 Eastern.
[111:37] >> Let's check back with Jack Caerty in New
[111:39] York. Jack
[111:40] >> Wolf, the question is, will former
[111:42] Brigadier General Janet Carpinsky's
[111:44] claims that outgoing Defense Secretary
[111:46] Donald Rumsfeld oayed prison abuses in a
[111:49] memo fall on deaf ears in Washington?
[111:53] Rick in Toronto writes, "The state of
[111:54] cover up on this issue is probably
[111:57] institutional in scope. Who involved in
[111:59] government doesn't stand to lose if the
[112:02] senior members of the administration are
[112:04] proven to have approved of torture?" So,
[112:06] of course, the cover up must be
[112:08] maintained and Carpinsky will be
[112:10] discredited by the authorities.
[112:13] Uh Jim in Kensington, Maryland writes,
[112:15] "They'll fall on deaf ears where this
[112:17] administration is concerned. Perhaps
[112:19] they will be heard though when
[112:20] impeachment proceedings begin. Carol
[112:23] writes, "Can you say sour grapes anyone?
[112:25] If Karpinsky didn't get demoted, she
[112:27] wouldn't be offering to testify against
[112:29] Rumsfeld in Germany. If you ask me,
[112:31] Rumsfeld wasn't tough enough." Leah
[112:33] writes from New York, "Inside the
[112:35] beltway, absolutely. Outside, absolutely
[112:38] not. The American public has finally
[112:40] wised up." Gerald writes from Las Vegas,
[112:43] "I'm betting on the deaf ears outcome.
[112:45] to try Rumsfeld as a war criminal leads
[112:47] to the obvious conclusion that the
[112:49] president and vice president are also
[112:51] guilty. And James writes, "If you find
[112:53] any other type of ear in Washington, let
[112:56] me know." If you didn't see your email
[112:58] here, you can go to cnn.com/caffertyfile
[113:00] where you can read more of these little
[113:02] gems online. Wolf,
[113:04] >> Jack, see you back here in an hour in
[113:06] the situation room. Up next, the future
[113:08] of fighting cancer. We'll have that
[113:11] report. Miles O'Brien with that. Stay
[113:12] with us. You're in the situation.
[113:19] Two powerful religions, one massive
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[113:23] American Morning at 6, CNN begins a full
[113:26] day of special coverage. Christians and
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[113:33] >> Paul. Oh, hey.
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[116:50] >> Medical science is quickly changing the
[116:53] way we fight cancer with many more
[116:54] promising treatments in store and some
[116:56] sooner than you may think. CNN's Miles
[116:59] O'Brien has our Welcome to the Future
[117:01] report. Miles Wolf, when it comes to
[117:04] fighting cancer, detection is crucial.
[117:07] This year alone, almost 1.4 4 million
[117:09] Americans will be diagnosed with cancer.
[117:11] But with better detection methods on the
[117:13] way, the chances of survival are getting
[117:15] better all the time. Dr. John Vitor of
[117:18] the University of Missouri Columbia says
[117:21] by listening to the noise some cancer
[117:23] cells make, we may be able to catch and
[117:26] treat it sooner. We have found melanoma
[117:28] cells using this laser induced
[117:30] ultrasound. Melanoma usually contains
[117:33] melanin which is the color that the
[117:35] laser needs to be absorbed and create
[117:37] these ultrasonic waves.
[117:39] >> But Vtor says by adding color to the
[117:41] colorless cancer cells, this technique
[117:44] may also be effective in detecting other
[117:46] cancers.
[117:47] >> This technology has the potential to
[117:49] impact oncology and cancer care across
[117:53] the board. Today, in order for an MRI or
[117:55] CAT scan to detect cancer, a patient
[117:58] must already have about a million cancer
[118:00] cells in their body. But Vitor says this
[118:02] technology could be used to detect as
[118:04] few as 10 cancer cells in the body. And
[118:07] one day, it could even identify a single
[118:10] cancer cell. It takes away the waiting
[118:12] game. I want to know right now, am I
[118:15] still clear?
[118:16] >> Dr. Vitor says the immediacy of the test
[118:19] results would dramatically improve
[118:20] patient care. After blood is drawn,
[118:23] patients would know in just 30 minutes
[118:25] the nature and extent of their disease.
[118:27] Vitor expects it to be available within
[118:29] two to five years. Wol
[118:32] >> Miles, thanks for that. And here's a
[118:34] look at some of the hot shots coming in
[118:36] from our friends over at the Associated
[118:37] Press. Pictures likely to be in your
[118:39] hometown newspapers tomorrow. Let's go
[118:41] to Baghdad. First, mourers take part in
[118:44] a funeral procession for those killed in
[118:46] a mortar attack yesterday. In central
[118:49] London, police walked past the boarded
[118:51] up and guarded sushi bar where former
[118:54] Russian spy Alexander Lufanko had lunch
[118:57] before getting sick and later dying from
[118:59] what's believed to be radiation
[119:01] poisoning. In northeastern Iran, two
[119:04] villagers wrestle. That's part of a
[119:06] traditional wedding party. And here in
[119:08] Washington, look at this. Jerry Marin,
[119:10] one of the lollipop guild munchkins from
[119:12] the Wizard of Oz movie, stands next to
[119:15] entertainment memorabilia over at the
[119:17] Smithsonian. Some of uh today's hot
[119:20] shots, pictures often worth a thousand
[119:23] words. We're here in the situation room
[119:26] weekday afternoons from 4 to 6:00 p.m.
[119:28] Eastern. Back in 1 hour at 700 p.m.
[119:30] Eastern. I'm Wolf Blitzer in Washington.
[119:32] Let's check in with Lou. He's standing
[119:34] by in New York. Lou,
[119:36] >> well, thank you. Tonight, eight more of
[119:38] our troops have been killed in Iraq.
[119:40] Hundreds of Iraqis killed. Sectarian
[119:43] violence has escalated to the worst
[119:44] level since this war began. We'll have
[119:46] reports from the Pentagon and Baghdad
[119:48] tonight. Also, a company that built part
[119:51] of a fence along our southern border
[119:52] with Mexico is now under investigation
[119:55] by federal authorities. That's right,
[119:57] for hiring illegal aliens. And from
[120:00] Moscow to Massachusetts, two of the
[120:01] country's leading experts on Russia join
[120:04] us for analysis of the Litmano
[120:06] assassination and the future of US
[120:08] relations with Putin's new Russia. All
[120:11] of that and a great deal more straight
[120:13] ahead here tonight.
[120:18] >> This is Lou Dos Tonight. News, debate,
[120:21] and opinion for Monday, November 27th,
[120:24] live in New York. Lou Dobs.
[120:27] >> Good evening everybody. The White House
[120:29] tonight acknowledged that the violence
[120:30] in Iraq has entered a new phase.
[120:33] Sectarian violence has escalated sharply
[120:35] over the past week. Our troops now
[120:38] appear to be the only military force in
[120:40] Iraq capable of stopping the country
[120:42] from sliding into allout civil war.
[120:45] President Bush today arrived in Estonia
[120:47] for the first of a series of highlevel
[120:49] talks about the wars in both Iraq and
[120:51] Afghanistan. Today, the Iraq Study Group
[120:54] met in Washington, DC to discuss US
[120:57] strategy and options in Iraq. Jimmy
[120:59] McIntyre tonight reports from the
[121:01] Pentagon on the study group's struggle
[121:03] to come up with a strategy for the war
[121:05] in Iraq. Suzan Malo reports from Estonia
[121:08] on the president's efforts to win
[121:10] support of key allies for his policies
[121:12] and the war on terror and against
[121:14] radical Islamists. and Arla Damon
[121:16] tonight reporting from Baghdad on the
[121:19] rising preparations of the Iraqi people
[121:21] for what appears to be a fullscale civil
[121:24] war about to be unleashed. We turn first
[121:27] to Jamie McIntyre at the Pentagon.
[121:29] Jamie, well Lou, a lot of people are
[121:31] looking toward the Baker Hamilton
[121:33] Commission for Salvation when it comes
[121:35] to Iraq, but here at the Pentagon,
[121:37] they're not expecting any miracles.
[121:41] For the Iraq study group, coming up with
[121:44] a winning strategy is a chicken or egg
[121:46] proposition. Which comes first? Is more
[121:49] stability needed to allow for fewer US
[121:51] troops, or would fewer US troops force
[121:54] Iraq to create more stability? Every
[121:57] course of action has a high degree of
[121:59] risk and is not guaranteed to succeed.
[122:01] But I think that there has to be a
[122:03] process that will force the Iraqis to
[122:06] make the difficult decisions they've so
[122:08] far refrained from making. A draft
[122:11] proposal now being debated by the Iraq
[122:13] study group reportedly frames the
[122:15] argument around the wisdom of a phased
[122:17] withdrawal as well as engaging Iran and
[122:20] Syria in direct talks. The problem is US
[122:23] commanders including top commander
[122:25] General John Abzade have already
[122:27] rejected the idea of either adding a lot
[122:29] more American troops or any precipitous
[122:32] pull out. So any radical shift in
[122:35] strategy risks running roughshot over
[122:37] the best advice of the US military. I
[122:40] think we're setting up an incredible
[122:42] clash between the senior uniform
[122:44] military and our civilian community.
[122:48] >> To avoid that, many observers believe
[122:49] the study group will advocate a gradual
[122:51] pull out not linked to any firm
[122:53] timetable along with increased training
[122:55] for Iraqi forces. That option is also
[122:58] favored by America's closest ally, Great
[123:01] Britain, which is anxiously eyeing the
[123:03] door. But I can tell you that by the end
[123:05] of next year, I expect numbers of
[123:08] British forces in Iraq to be
[123:09] significantly lower by a matter of
[123:11] thousands. Like the US, Britain says
[123:14] future troop reductions would be
[123:15] conditions permitting. Still, the
[123:17] coalition is slowly shrinking. Poland is
[123:20] withdrawing its 1,000 troops next year.
[123:22] Italy's 1400 will be out this year, and
[123:25] Ukraine, the Netherlands, and Spain have
[123:27] already left. That will leave South
[123:29] Korea and Australia as the only
[123:31] countries besides the US and Great
[123:33] Britain with more than a thousand troops
[123:35] in Iraq. A total of 13,000 troops from
[123:38] 26 countries, down from more than 20,000
[123:41] a year ago. Now, the Iraq Study Group is
[123:44] meeting this week in Washington. Its
[123:46] deliberations are shrouded in secrecy,
[123:48] but whatever it comes up with, it is
[123:50] expect to present to the outgoing
[123:53] Congress before it leaves on its holiday
[123:55] recess early next month. Blue.
[123:58] >> Jamie, thank you very much. Jamie
[123:59] McIntyre from the Pentagon. Insurgents
[124:02] in Iraq have killed eight more of our
[124:04] troops. Four were killed in Baghdad. The
[124:06] others were killed in operations
[124:08] elsewhere in Iraq. 61 of our troops have
[124:10] now been killed in Iraq. So far this
[124:12] month, 2,881
[124:15] of our troops have been killed since
[124:16] this war began. 21,78
[124:20] of our troops wounded. 9,977
[124:24] of them so seriously they could not
[124:26] return to duty. A US Air Force F-16
[124:29] fighter aircraft today crashed near the
[124:31] city of Fallujah west of Baghdad. One
[124:34] pilot was aboard. The military did not
[124:36] say whether the pilot survived the crash
[124:37] or whether the crash was caused by enemy
[124:40] fire. More than 100 Iraqis are being
[124:43] killed in Iraq now each and every day.
[124:46] Many of those Iraqis are victims of
[124:48] terrorists who appear determined to push
[124:49] Iraq even closer to full-scale civil
[124:52] war. Arwa Damon reports now from
[124:54] Baghdad. Arwa
[124:57] Lou, the US and Iraqi governments
[124:59] continue to insist that Iraq is not in a
[125:02] civil war, but most Iraqis here look at
[125:04] the bloodshed around them and say that
[125:07] the civil war started a long time ago.
[125:11] In the religiously charged atmosphere of
[125:14] Bakuba, blindfolded and handcuffed
[125:17] bodies contorted in death arrive at the
[125:19] morg. After Thursday's attack in Sutter
[125:22] City that killed at least 200 Shia, the
[125:25] government imposed a 3-day curfew in
[125:27] Baghdad, keeping the body count
[125:30] relatively low. But there was no curfew
[125:33] in Bakuba, and the slaughter went on.
[125:37] >> Why? Why, this woman shouts.
[125:43] The Sutter City bombing, the single
[125:45] deadliest sectarian attack of the war,
[125:48] enraged Shia militias and sent the
[125:50] sectarian bloodletting to a whole new
[125:53] level.
[125:54] As one man told us, "Out here, it's now
[125:58] each man for himself." Sunni websites
[126:01] urge their so-called brothers to carry
[126:03] weapons and share details about attacks
[126:06] in their neighborhoods. Fact or fiction,
[126:09] the internet traffic is fueling fear,
[126:11] hatred, and encouraging violence.
[126:15] And this video posted on an extremist
[126:17] jihadi website shows a new level of
[126:20] brutality. The Mujahedin army from
[126:22] Adamia, a Sunni neighborhood, prepare to
[126:25] behead this man whom they claim is with
[126:27] the Shia Mahu militia. The killing
[126:30] moments later takes place as people
[126:32] record images.
[126:37] >> And throughout Iraq, the agony of loss.
[126:40] The failures of the government now
[126:42] painfully obvious as the country comes
[126:44] even closer to fullscale civil war. Arwa
[126:48] Damon, CNN.
[126:52] The Iraqi government of Prime Minister
[126:54] Nuri al- Malaki is incapable of stopping
[126:57] the escalating sectarian violence. One
[127:00] reason may be the close ties between
[127:02] Alaki's government and radical Islamist
[127:04] led by the anti-American cleric Mkta
[127:07] also. Michael Wear in Baghdad with our
[127:10] report. Michael, is the Iraqi government
[127:12] powerless? Is anyone paying any
[127:14] attention to the Iraqi prime minister?
[127:19] Well, Lou, the first question really is
[127:21] there an Iraqi government at all? Beyond
[127:24] the office of Prime Minister Noral
[127:26] Maliki and his national security
[127:28] adviser, this government is more an
[127:31] alignment of Shia militias than it is
[127:34] any kind of effective administration.
[127:37] Many of the elements within the
[127:39] ministries dominated by these militias
[127:41] take their cues not from a relatively
[127:44] powerless prime minister who himself
[127:47] does not have men at arms, the currency
[127:50] of political power in Iraq, but they
[127:52] take those cues from their militia
[127:54] leaders and their political party
[127:57] leaders. Many of them according to US
[127:59] and British intelligence backed by
[128:02] Iranian revolutionary guard coulds force
[128:05] or specialist intelligence officers. So
[128:09] whether anyone's following the
[128:11] directives of the prime minister really
[128:14] is not that much in question. Maliki is
[128:17] trying to make an imprint on the
[128:20] violence here and on the militias, the
[128:22] fundamental building blocks of this
[128:25] government. Yet, as you can tell, with
[128:27] the escalating bloodshed, there is very,
[128:30] very real limits to what power he has.
[128:33] Louie,
[128:35] >> Michael Wear from Baghdad. The White
[128:37] House today admitted the violence in
[128:39] Iraq has entered what it described as a
[128:41] quote new phase. But the White House
[128:43] stopped short of calling this conflict
[128:44] civil war. President Bush today arrived
[128:47] in Estonia. He will be there for one
[128:49] day. He then travels to Latvia for a
[128:51] NATO summit. Later in the week, the
[128:54] president will go to Jordan there to
[128:55] meet with Iraqi Prime Minister Al
[128:58] Maliki. Suzan Malvo reports now from the
[129:01] Estonian capital of Talon. Suzan
[129:06] >> Well, President Bush has arrived in
[129:07] Talin, Estonia. It's his first stop in
[129:10] this highstakes diplomatic offensive. Of
[129:12] course, his next stop is going to be Ria
[129:14] Latia for the NATO summit. But all eyes
[129:16] on that critically important meeting
[129:18] between President Bush and Iraqi Prime
[129:20] Minister Nuri al- Maliki. It'll take
[129:22] place Thursday in Aman, Jordan. And
[129:24] already the national security adviser
[129:26] Steven Hadley aboard Air Force One
[129:28] giving a preview of this discussion of
[129:30] these meetings. He said first the two
[129:32] leaders would discuss the
[129:34] appropriateness whether or not the
[129:36] United States should reach out to its
[129:37] nemesis Iran in discussing the situation
[129:40] in Iraq. Hadley saying he believed that
[129:43] Maliki felt that Iraq should be the one
[129:45] to have those direct talks with Iran and
[129:48] Syria and take the lead on that matter.
[129:50] Secondly, Hadley described the situation
[129:53] in Iraq as entering a new phase when it
[129:56] comes to violence, but he denied that it
[129:58] was a civil war. And third, he said
[130:00] there would be no discussion about US
[130:02] troop levels between the two leaders
[130:04] when they meet, but rather how to build
[130:07] up those Iraqi security forces. And as
[130:09] you know, the credibility, the legacies
[130:12] of both these men is on the line. There
[130:14] is much at stake and that is why Bush
[130:16] administration officials setting the bar
[130:18] very low for these discussions in case
[130:20] things get much worse in Iraq before
[130:22] they get better. Lou
[130:24] >> Son Mavo from Talin, Estonia. Now for
[130:28] tonight's poll, the question, do you
[130:29] believe it matters whether the news
[130:31] media refers to the Iraqi conflict as
[130:33] insurgency, sectarian violence, or civil
[130:37] war? Yes or no? Please cast your vote at
[130:39] leives.com. We'll have the results here
[130:41] later. Coming up next, our panel of
[130:43] highranking former military leaders join
[130:45] us to discuss what the United States
[130:47] should do next in Iraq and what the
[130:49] options might be. Also ahead, the
[130:51] company that built part of a border
[130:53] fence along uh the Mexican border is
[130:55] under investigation tonight. That's
[130:58] right, for hiring illegal aliens. We'll
[131:00] have that report. Leftist governments
[131:02] again on the march in Latin America and
[131:04] the anti-US sentiment being blamed for
[131:06] the shift. What is the US policy in this
[131:08] hemisphere, if any? We'll have that
[131:11] report. and Russian a Russian journalist
[131:13] murdered. A Russian spy poisoned in
[131:15] London and CEOs sent off to Siberia.
[131:19] Fingers being pointed at Russia's
[131:20] president. Two of this country's top
[131:22] experts on Russia join us. One from
[131:24] Moscow, the other from Massachusetts.
[131:26] Stay with us.
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[133:59] >> The company that built a section of
[134:01] fence along our border with Mexico is
[134:03] tonight under investigation for hiring
[134:06] illegal aliens and communities across
[134:08] the country fighting an influx of
[134:10] illegal aliens find themselves targets
[134:12] of wellorganized well-funded open
[134:15] borders groups. Casey Wine reports
[134:17] tonight on the Fence Building Company
[134:20] and their investigation for hiring
[134:21] illegal aliens. Bill Tucker reports
[134:23] tonight on cities with illegal
[134:25] immigration statues facing legal
[134:27] challenges by wellfunded activist
[134:29] groups. We begin with Casey Wine in Los
[134:31] Angeles. Casey
[134:33] >> Lou, a Southern California fence company
[134:35] is under criminal investigation tonight
[134:37] for repeatedly hiring illegal aliens.
[134:40] Incredibly, the company built part of
[134:42] the US border fence with Mexico.
[134:46] The Golden State Fence Company builds
[134:48] fences for homes, military bases, even a
[134:51] portion of the fence guarding the US
[134:53] Mexico border east of San Diego. The
[134:56] project was completed in 1998. Since
[134:58] then, federal authorities say Golden
[135:00] State has been busted three times for
[135:02] hiring illegal aliens, and it's the
[135:04] target of an ongoing criminal
[135:06] investigation. Golden State Fence would
[135:08] not discuss the investigation, but says
[135:11] it has taken a number of steps to ensure
[135:12] that its employees are legal residents,
[135:15] including voluntary participation in
[135:17] ISIS's employment verification system
[135:19] since December. While there is no
[135:21] evidence Golden State used illegal
[135:23] aliens to build the border fence, some
[135:25] say it's a good idea. Don Goldwater ran
[135:28] for Arizona governor this year and
[135:30] received about 40% of the Republican
[135:32] primary vote. He proposed using criminal
[135:35] illegal aliens and other inmate labor to
[135:37] build a border barrier.
[135:38] >> What we had proposed uh during the
[135:40] campaign was to set up a tent city uh
[135:43] down on the border because it's a
[135:45] temporary uh correctional facility and
[135:48] then to use inmate labor down on the
[135:50] border to build the wall, clean up the
[135:52] desert, and fix the ranches that the
[135:54] illegals were tearing up. The Golden
[135:56] State Fence investigation grew out of
[135:58] Operation Safe Cities, a San Diego
[136:00] Immigration and Customs Enforcement
[136:02] crackdown on illegal aliens working at
[136:04] facilities critical to national
[136:06] security. In less than 3 years, ICE has
[136:09] found 870 illegal aliens employed at
[136:12] military bases, the San Diego airport,
[136:15] even the Sanopre nuclear power plant. In
[136:18] fact, 2 and a half% of the nearly 35,000
[136:21] employees checked so far were illegally
[136:23] in the United States.
[136:25] An Immigration and Customs Enforcement
[136:27] spokeswoman says the agency hopes
[136:29] federal charges will be filed against
[136:32] Golden State Fence for violating
[136:34] employment laws. Lou,
[136:35] >> the irony doesn't get much greater than
[136:37] that, does it, Casey?
[136:38] >> It sure doesn't, Lou.
[136:40] >> All right, thank you. Cities and towns
[136:42] that have passed measures aimed at
[136:44] cracking down on illegal immigration are
[136:46] facing big challenges, bigger than many
[136:49] realized at first. Wellunded groups such
[136:51] as the American Civil Liberties Union
[136:53] are challenging those measures in court,
[136:55] forcing small towns to find ways in
[136:57] which to raise money to fight those
[137:00] challenges by activist groups. Bill
[137:02] Tucker reports.
[137:05] Officials from cities in Escanido,
[137:07] California, Farmers Branch, Texas,
[137:09] Riverside, New Jersey, and Hazelton,
[137:12] Pennsylvania, all say the cost of
[137:14] illegal immigration are overwhelming
[137:16] their budgets. But their efforts to
[137:18] crack down on illegal immigration are
[137:20] creating large legal problems. Richly
[137:22] endowed groups like the American Civil
[137:24] Liberties Union are taking the cities to
[137:26] court, challenging the ordinances that
[137:28] those cities and others like them are
[137:30] approving. It's become a fight of the
[137:32] Davids versus the Goliaths.
[137:34] >> Unfortunately, the cost of attorney's
[137:37] fees can be very substantial,
[137:39] particularly if the case goes to trial.
[137:41] I think it's very reasonable to assume a
[137:43] minimum of $100,000.
[137:46] and uh likely as much as $2 or $3
[137:49] million.
[137:50] >> The three groups most active in
[137:52] challenging the city's laws are the
[137:54] ACLU, the Puerto Rican Legal Defense and
[137:57] Education Fund, and the Mexican-American
[137:59] Legal Defense and Educational Fund. The
[138:02] combined assets of those groups, $270
[138:05] million, with undisclosed proono legal
[138:08] help available from member law firms.
[138:11] And while the towns have to answer to
[138:12] taxpayers, those groups have to answer
[138:15] to donors who usually remain anonymous.
[138:18] And there is a financial incentive for
[138:20] these groups to challenge the laws. Win
[138:22] or lose, their legal fees are usually
[138:24] included in the settlement.
[138:26] >> They threatened that a lawsuit uh
[138:28] involving the city of Hazelton that they
[138:30] would bankrupt us, thinking that we
[138:32] would roll over and and back off. We
[138:34] really don't have a choice. Hazelton's
[138:36] collected $50,000 through individual
[138:38] contributions to help defer its legal
[138:41] cost, mostly in checks for $10 and $20.
[138:44] The largest single donor to date is the
[138:46] owner of Gino's Cheese Stakes in
[138:48] Philadelphia. He donated $10,000.
[138:52] The city of Escanido, California, has
[138:54] set up a similar program to solicit
[138:56] funds. Tonight, officials of the village
[138:59] of Mamarin, New York are meeting to
[139:01] decide whether they will continue to
[139:03] fight their own legal battle to crack
[139:04] down on illegal aliens. One of the major
[139:07] factors in determining whether they
[139:08] fight on Lou legal cost involved with
[139:11] carrying on the case.
[139:12] >> Well, I think we can say here
[139:14] unequivocally where two sources of that
[139:17] uh money to those activist groups that
[139:19] are fighting these small communities
[139:21] comes from. uh two sources, one is the
[139:24] federal government and the other is
[139:26] corporate America. We can say that
[139:27] unequivocally. Uh and should Bill, thank
[139:31] you very much, Bill Tucker. Coming up
[139:34] next here, the United States is helping
[139:35] communist China, a totalitarian state,
[139:38] train its police. How about that?
[139:40] Democracy at work. And uh we'll have
[139:43] that story. And we'll have the story of
[139:46] Ecuador's leftist presidential candidate
[139:48] basking in the in the glory of victory.
[139:51] And that may give another boost to a
[139:53] leftist running for reelection elsewhere
[139:55] in Latin America. We'll tie all of that
[139:56] together. And as the situation in Iraq
[139:59] is rapidly worsening, we'll hear from
[140:01] our panel of highlevel former military
[140:04] commanders on what the United States
[140:05] should do now in Iraq. And is this
[140:08] Putin's new Russia? Journalists murdered
[140:10] a Russian spy assassinated in London.
[140:14] and we'll have that story. We'll be
[140:15] talking with two of the country's top
[140:16] experts on Russia. David Sat of the
[140:19] Hudson Institute joins us from Moscow.
[140:22] Marshall Goldman, the Davis Professor of
[140:24] Russian Economics at Welssley joins us
[140:26] from Boston. Stay with us for all of
[140:28] that, all the today's news, a great deal
[140:30] more straight ahead.
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[142:27] Former President Jimmy Carter on Iraq,
[142:30] bloodshed, and more. Larry King tonight.
[142:34] >> A great democracy helping out a
[142:35] totalitarian state. The United States
[142:37] consulting with Communist China on
[142:39] security and anti-terrorist matters.
[142:42] Critics, however, say the Chinese police
[142:44] may be learning advanced law enforcement
[142:46] techniques that could help the communist
[142:48] regime become an even stronger police
[142:51] state. Kitty Pilgrim reports.
[142:55] Beijing is gearing up for their Olympics
[142:57] in 2008 and is worried about security.
[143:00] The US is only happy to help. In meeting
[143:03] after meeting, top Chinese officials
[143:04] have met with top US security officials,
[143:07] including Department of Homeland
[143:09] Security Secretary Michael Churoff. The
[143:11] Chinese embassy website boasts meeting
[143:13] with the US Attorney General Alberto
[143:15] Gonzalez and signing a joint statement
[143:18] further strengthening law enforcement
[143:20] cooperation last July. The latest
[143:22] program has been to train China's police
[143:24] for the 2008 summer Olympics. We have
[143:27] also been training their air marshals
[143:29] before that. But also in general, we
[143:32] have been doing more garden variety
[143:34] training. So the training is is from the
[143:36] most sophisticated to the most ordinary.
[143:39] >> Many China scholars are concerned that
[143:41] US officials may unintentionally enhance
[143:44] China's ability as a police state by
[143:46] consulting on issues such as crowd
[143:48] control. The violent Tianaan Square
[143:51] police crackdown displayed how brutal
[143:53] China's security forces can be. And
[143:55] today, China is a tinderbox of rural
[143:58] unrest. Some 40,000 demonstrations took
[144:01] place in China in the first half of this
[144:03] year alone over unemployment, housing,
[144:06] and the environment. Some of those
[144:08] demonstrations were brutally suppressed.
[144:10] China critics say the training has dual
[144:13] use. The excuse is that they need to
[144:16] establish crowd control to be able to
[144:18] maintain an efficient police force to
[144:21] prevent any sort of instability, any
[144:23] sort of uprisings during the Olympics.
[144:25] But in reality, uh you know, there's no
[144:26] doubt that these techniques will be used
[144:28] to quell a number of their rural
[144:30] protests, which is which is their main
[144:32] concern. The US policy on China is
[144:34] inconsistent and contradictory. The US
[144:37] Commerce Department restricts any
[144:39] exports that are exclusively used for
[144:41] law enforcement because they could
[144:43] enhance the Chinese police state. Yet,
[144:45] the Justice Department and US law
[144:47] enforcement agencies consult and train
[144:50] Chinese security forces. Now, the US
[144:53] Justice Department has not returned
[144:55] repeated calls to ask them how to
[144:57] comment on how extensive this joint
[144:59] cooperation is. And the real question is
[145:01] how this USChina cooperation can be
[145:03] allowed when there are other
[145:04] restrictions on exporting goods that
[145:06] would help law enforcement in China.
[145:08] Lou,
[145:09] >> it is a night for some irony in terms of
[145:12] US policy. Thank you very much, Kitty
[145:14] Pilgrim. Time now for some of your
[145:16] thoughts. Uh Brian in Florida said, "If
[145:19] the new Congress agrees on an
[145:21] immigration reform bill with a guest
[145:22] worker amnesty program, it will not be a
[145:24] reform. Instead, it will be a disaster
[145:26] for working Americans." and Sandra in
[145:29] New York. Lou, America used to be a can
[145:31] do nation. Now it seems we're a nation
[145:34] of we can't do anything. Build our 700
[145:37] mile fence that was passed into law. No
[145:39] excuses. Become a nation of can do
[145:42] again? And Dan in Washington. Blue. Are
[145:45] the officers in New York City going to
[145:47] go scot-free for shooting dead the newly
[145:49] wed to be, while the border patrol
[145:51] officers who shot the drug peddler who
[145:53] is still alive will be spending a big
[145:56] part of their lives in prison. Send us
[145:59] your thoughts to ludams.com. We'll have
[146:00] more of your thoughts later here. Each
[146:02] of you whose email is read here receives
[146:04] a copy of my new book, War on the Middle
[146:06] Class. Up next, a shift to the left in
[146:08] Latin America. We'll have a special
[146:10] report on what that means for the United
[146:12] States. Also, the mysterious
[146:13] assassination of a former Russian spy.
[146:15] I'll be talking with two ops experts on
[146:17] Russia. David Saturn in Moscow, Marshall
[146:20] Goldman in Massachusetts. All of that
[146:21] and more straight ahead.
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[148:32] >> Tonight's top stories. Insurgents in
[148:34] Iraq have killed eight more of our
[148:35] troops. The White House admits the
[148:37] violence in Iraq has entered what it
[148:38] calls a new phase as sectarian killings
[148:41] escalate. Three former military leaders
[148:43] join us here later to discuss future US
[148:46] strategy in Iraq. Also, President Bush
[148:48] arriving at Estonia for the first of a
[148:50] series of high level talks about the
[148:52] conduct of the wars on Iraq and
[148:54] Afghanistan. The president to meet with
[148:56] the Iraqi Prime Minister Nur al- Maliki
[148:59] in Jordan later this week. A company
[149:01] that built part of a fence along our
[149:03] southern border with Mexico to keep
[149:05] illegal aliens out of the country under
[149:07] investigation tonight for repeatedly
[149:09] hiring, you guessed it, illegal aliens.
[149:12] Other important stories tonight in
[149:14] Missouri, a fire that killed 10 and
[149:16] injured 24 at a group home for the
[149:18] mentally ill and elderly is being called
[149:20] suspicious. The outer walls, all that is
[149:23] left of the Anderson guest house. There
[149:26] were 32 residents, two employees inside
[149:28] when that fire gutted the structure.
[149:30] Police say today's fire may be related
[149:32] to a smaller one that broke out in the
[149:34] home Saturday. Out west, a potent
[149:36] Pacific storm blanketing much of the
[149:38] region with snow. In Washington state,
[149:41] snowstorms and gusty winds battering
[149:43] travelers. Traffic slowed to a crawl on
[149:46] most major highways. There were dozens
[149:48] of accidents because, as one state
[149:50] trooper put it, people simply could not
[149:52] see. And the heavy snow extending to
[149:55] Lake Tahoe in Northern California,
[149:57] accumulations of a foot or more reported
[149:59] at higher elevations. The 2006 hurricane
[150:02] season is officially over this Thursday.
[150:05] It's been a surprisingly mild one. About
[150:08] uh after two brutal seasons, only nine
[150:10] named storms formed up this year. Five
[150:13] actually did become hurricanes. None,
[150:15] however, hit the United States. The news
[150:17] isn't all good. Experts say we can
[150:19] expect to see uh more decades of
[150:22] heightened hurricane activity. And
[150:24] confirmation tonight is something many
[150:26] of us suspect. A new study indicates
[150:29] that nine out of 10 emails are now spam.
[150:32] Uh, Postini, the US email security
[150:34] company says the amount of spam has
[150:36] tripled since just June. The firm says
[150:39] criminal charges are responsible for the
[150:41] surge in unwanted email, mainly peddling
[150:44] sex, drugs, and stock tips. There's a
[150:47] new leftist leader in Latin America
[150:49] tonight, Ecuador's Raphael Korea. Early
[150:52] in his presidential race, Korea called
[150:54] President Bush dimwitted and tonight
[150:57] vows to scale back cooperation with the
[150:59] United States in the war on drugs. Just
[151:02] the latest turn to the left in Latin
[151:04] America. Christine Romans reports.
[151:08] >> In Ecuador, Raphael Korea sweeps to
[151:11] power. He has called President Bush
[151:13] dim-witted and promised not to renew US
[151:15] access to a military base for anti-drug
[151:18] operations. He's a protege of Venezuelan
[151:20] President Hugo Chavez, himself running
[151:23] for reelection.
[151:26] >> We are going to defeat the most powerful
[151:28] empire on Earth. concerned the United
[151:30] States is losing its influence in a
[151:32] region that benefited from $1.8 billion
[151:35] dollar last year in aid from US
[151:37] taxpayers and enjoys so far this year an
[151:40] 84 billion trade surplus.
[151:42] >> The United States clearly needs to
[151:44] strongly engage uh in the region
[151:47] especially in the Andian region where
[151:48] populism and ultraism is running is
[151:52] running strong. the view today at the
[151:54] State Department.
[151:55] >> We're open to working with dulyeleed
[151:59] government governments in the region
[152:01] that govern democratically uh regardless
[152:04] of where they where they come from along
[152:06] the political spectrum.
[152:08] >> He says the US is working with Bolivia,
[152:10] for example, despite its new president's
[152:12] anti-American rhetoric on the campaign
[152:14] trail. And under secretary of state
[152:16] Nicholas Burns says Chavez influence is
[152:19] waning, highlighting what he calls
[152:21] responsible left of center or centrist
[152:23] candidates winning in Chile, Brazil,
[152:26] Peru, Colombia, Haiti, Costa Rica, and
[152:28] Mexico. But Mexico is no model of
[152:31] stability. In Wajaka this weekend,
[152:33] homemade rockets rained. Leftist
[152:35] protesters hurled rocks, fireworks, and
[152:38] gas bombs at federal police. Meanwhile,
[152:40] failed presidential candidate Lopez Odor
[152:43] has vowed to lead a shadow government.
[152:45] The more moderate Felipe Calderon faces
[152:48] an ongoing challenge from Oberdor's
[152:50] supporters. And in Nicaragua earlier
[152:52] this month, former Sandinista Daniel
[152:54] Ortega in a presidential victory
[152:56] procession through the streets of
[152:58] Managa.
[153:00] Perhaps the most visible example, many
[153:02] say of the decline of US influence in
[153:04] its own backyard. The State Department
[153:06] says 2007 will be a year for the United
[153:09] States Lou to focus on invigorating
[153:12] Latin America.
[153:13] >> So that's the timetable. They've taken
[153:16] notice at the uh State Department and
[153:18] they're going to pay a lot of attention
[153:20] next year. That's that's reassuring.
[153:22] Christine, thanks Christine Robbins.
[153:24] Coming up next, the violence in Iraq at
[153:26] its worst levels since the war began.
[153:28] We'll be joined here by three
[153:30] distinguished former military
[153:31] commanders. We'll be exploring the
[153:33] options for the US now and shades of a
[153:37] former Soviet Union. Journalists
[153:39] murdered a former spy poison and
[153:41] Russia's president implicated. Two of
[153:44] the country's top experts on Russia join
[153:46] us. David Satder of the Hudson Institute
[153:48] joining us from Moscow. Marshall
[153:50] Goldman, professor of Russian economics
[153:52] at Welssley joins us from Boston. Stay
[153:55] with us for that and a lot more still
[153:57] ahead.
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[156:20] British authorities have now discovered
[156:22] a number of new sites with traces of the
[156:25] radioactive material that killed a
[156:27] former Russian spy in London. Alexander
[156:30] Lit Vanenko died last week as a result
[156:33] of poisoning by plonium 210. It is a
[156:37] rare radioactive element usually
[156:39] manufactured in special nuclear
[156:40] facilities. Three other people are now
[156:43] being tested for possible exposure to
[156:45] palonium 210. And joining me now to
[156:48] discuss the implication of this uh
[156:50] implications of this case, two leading
[156:52] authorities on Russia, David Saturn of
[156:55] the Hudson Institute joins us tonight
[156:57] from Moscow, his me most recent book,
[157:00] Darkness at Dawn, the rise of the
[157:02] Russian criminal state. And from
[157:04] Massachusetts tonight, Marshall Goldman,
[157:06] professor of Russian economics at
[157:07] Welssley. Good to have you both here. Uh
[157:10] David Sat, let me begin with you. Uh the
[157:14] the obvious uh death of Lit Benoa being
[157:19] uh assigned to Russian President Putin
[157:22] is first of all highly unusual. What are
[157:24] the implications first because he is a
[157:26] British citizen for the UK Russian
[157:29] relationship?
[157:33] Well, I think that something has
[157:34] happened that uh if it's confirmed that
[157:37] the Russian uh intelligence services
[157:40] were involved, literally forces Britain
[157:44] to downgrade its relationship with
[157:46] Russia. And I believe that in so far as
[157:48] Britain is our closest ally, it forces
[157:50] us pretty much to do the same. They've
[157:54] really outdone themselves this time. And
[157:57] uh if in fact it's confirmed that the
[157:59] Russian secret services were behind this
[158:01] murder, which is a very s sadistic
[158:03] murder, then the west simply must react.
[158:08] >> And you think react on moral grounds.
[158:10] Correct.
[158:12] >> Exactly. Exactly. as a matter of
[158:15] principle and disregarding any any other
[158:18] calculations because in fact in the long
[158:21] run that's the only thing that can
[158:23] establish a better relationship with
[158:25] Russia and curtail this kind of
[158:27] behavior. Uh, Professor Gman, let me ask
[158:30] you this. The the US relationship uh at
[158:33] this point, the US government has been
[158:35] very constrained. Uh, what do you think
[158:38] the uh where we where are we uh and
[158:41] where will we be going forward? Uh, if
[158:43] indeed it is confirmed uh that the
[158:46] Russian state in any form had anything
[158:48] to do with this assassination,
[158:50] >> it's going to be very difficult to do
[158:51] much of anything. Russia is too
[158:53] important right now. Uh, we need them to
[158:56] help us with Iran. We need them to help
[158:58] us with Iraq. We need them to help us
[158:59] with North Korea. And more importantly,
[159:02] the Russians have become a major
[159:03] supplier now of energy, particularly
[159:06] natural gas, even to Great Britain. Uh
[159:09] as the North Sea deposits are depleted,
[159:12] uh the Russians are talking now about
[159:14] selling more and more natural gas to
[159:15] Great Britain. And it's going to be very
[159:17] hard for them to say, "We don't want to
[159:18] have anything uh to do with you." So,
[159:21] Russia now is in a very strong position,
[159:23] and it's going to be very hard just
[159:24] simply to say, "You did bad things. uh
[159:26] go away. We don't want to talk to you
[159:28] anymore.
[159:29] >> So the influence of uh oil and natural
[159:32] gas deposits within Russia uh will
[159:35] extend as do those deposits in the
[159:37] Middle East to influence uh western
[159:40] policy in your judgment?
[159:41] >> Absolutely. I mean you know in case of
[159:44] Germany for example Russia supplies 40%
[159:47] of the gas that Germany imports. For
[159:49] Europe as a whole it's over a quarter.
[159:51] Even for that matter, we are now in in
[159:53] the United States beginning to import
[159:55] petroleum and soon the Russians say
[159:57] they'll be selling us natural gas as
[159:59] well in the form of LNG. Uh David Ser uh
[160:04] professor Gleman says that there are
[160:07] there's real politic at work here. Uh
[160:09] that in effect um Europe certainly is
[160:13] held in some ways captive by its
[160:16] dependency on Russia for energy
[160:18] resources. uh you're talking about moral
[160:20] and principal grounds. Um is there any
[160:25] uh in your judgment uh uh room here to
[160:28] say uh we're going to have to exceed as
[160:31] a matter of real politic to the fact
[160:34] that all of Europe is virtually
[160:36] dependent on Russia for energy?
[160:40] >> Well, I I really don't think that there
[160:42] is I disagree with Marshall on on on
[160:45] this issue. For one thing, Russia needs
[160:47] the income for the from the sale of oil
[160:49] and gas as much as we need the energy.
[160:52] For another, there are a whole range of
[160:56] measures that the United States and
[160:57] Britain can take which have important
[160:59] symbolic value. For example, excluding
[161:02] Russia from the G8 or downgrading a
[161:04] whole series of relationships uh in
[161:08] which we're involved with Russia that
[161:10] would serve as apt uh punishment in
[161:13] effect for this type of behavior. It's
[161:16] very important to bear in mind that
[161:18] although we've mortgaged our our our
[161:21] right to criticize what goes on in
[161:23] Russia in the hope that we'll get help
[161:26] from Russia on issues like Iran and
[161:28] North Korea. It's the very sign it's the
[161:31] very state of Russian society, the
[161:34] criminalization of Russian society,
[161:36] which is the root reason why we're not
[161:38] going to get that support on uh from
[161:41] Russia that we need on issues like Iran
[161:43] and North Korea. The fact is that the
[161:46] present Russian leadership is
[161:47] comfortable with regimes like the regime
[161:49] in Iran and North Korea.
[161:51] >> Do you agree with that, Marshall Golden?
[161:52] >> Well, not entirely. I I agree with David
[161:55] completely that it's unfortunate that
[161:57] the Russians are doing these things uh
[161:59] and we should stand up and speak out,
[162:01] but I just don't think it's realistic
[162:02] for the Europeans, for example. Already
[162:04] they're beginning to pull their punches
[162:06] if you look at what the Germans are
[162:07] saying about conditions in Poland and
[162:10] elsewhere. So I I agree with that David
[162:12] in principle is right, but I'm afraid
[162:13] real politic as you say is going to
[162:15] force us to do something else.
[162:17] >> The uh the issue of proportionality uh
[162:20] which seemingly been lost every time uh
[162:24] u energy I'll leave it I'll restrict it
[162:27] simply to energy needs of western powers
[162:29] comes into being. Proportionality seems
[162:32] to have uh dissipated. Is there a
[162:35] proportionate response on the part of
[162:37] the British government? Again, we have
[162:39] no facts to uh uh to confirm uh
[162:43] unequivocally that this was a uh carried
[162:46] out by the Russian secret service or uh
[162:49] uh any other part of the state. But is
[162:52] there a proportionality issue here just
[162:54] as there is in the Middle East uh that
[162:56] could be followed by both the British
[162:58] government uh European powers as well as
[163:00] the United States?
[163:02] Well, I think there's some certainly
[163:04] there there will be some things we can
[163:06] do, but in terms of the overall impact,
[163:08] I don't think it's going to really lead
[163:10] to a basic change in policy. We'll be
[163:13] slapping their hands, but I don't think
[163:14] we'll be undercutting their their
[163:16] existence. And I think this given the
[163:18] fact that Putin is putting in place um
[163:21] uh many of his colleagues from the KGB,
[163:23] it's really not a very healthy
[163:25] environment.
[163:26] David Ser as you pointed out uh those
[163:29] colleagues uh and uh uh members former
[163:32] members of the KGB in particular that he
[163:34] has put into power throughout the
[163:36] security council and a large uh part of
[163:38] the national security apparatus of
[163:40] Russia. What does this spell to you in
[163:42] terms of the future of the relationship
[163:44] between Russia, Western Europe and the
[163:46] United States? If we can ask you to give
[163:47] us your answer in relatively quick
[163:49] order.
[163:52] Well, I think that this there's a
[163:54] specific mentality that's associated
[163:56] with the KGB and that mentality is
[163:58] amoral and I think we're seeing signs of
[164:00] that right now. Uh the the Pikovsky a
[164:04] murder was followed up uh with the
[164:07] murder of uh of Alexander Litanenko at a
[164:10] time when the world was still outraged
[164:12] over the killing of Pikovsky.
[164:14] >> That should tell you something.
[164:16] Unfortunately, the suggestions are
[164:18] ominous and we thank you both uh for
[164:20] being with us tonight uh to assess what
[164:23] is going on between Russia uh Europe and
[164:26] the United States. Thank you both
[164:28] Marshall Marshall Goldman in uh Welsley
[164:32] and David Sat in Moscow tonight. I know
[164:34] it's very late for you there and we
[164:36] appreciate you staying up to talk with
[164:37] us. Thank you.
[164:39] Coming up next, we'll be talking with a
[164:40] panel of distinguished former military
[164:42] leaders as the Vi Islands and Iraq has
[164:44] reached new heights. We'll be discussing
[164:47] what options are available to the United
[164:49] States in Iraq. Stay with us.
[164:54] >> Larry King tonight. Former President
[164:55] Jimmy Carter. He helped broker M East
[164:58] peace. Now he sheds light on Iraq and
[165:00] more. Larry King tonight 9 Eastern, only
[165:02] on CNN.
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[166:33] Heat. Heat.
[167:05] Anderson Cooper live from Turkey tonight
[167:08] 10 Eastern.
[167:11] Our troops in Iraq tonight are
[167:13] struggling to stop escalating sectarian
[167:15] violence. Politicians in Washington
[167:18] divided over US strategy in Iraq. Many
[167:20] calling for a timetable now for
[167:22] withdrawal. Some however saying the
[167:23] United States should raise the number of
[167:25] troops in Iraq, particularly Senator
[167:27] John McCain. Joining me tonight, three
[167:29] of the country's most distinguished
[167:31] military analysts, all decorated combat
[167:33] veterans, Major General Paul Eaton,
[167:35] responsible for training Iraq security
[167:37] forces in 2003 and 2004. General, good
[167:40] to have you with us. Lieutenant General
[167:42] Bernard Trainer, author of Cobra 2, one
[167:44] of the most authoritative accounts of
[167:46] this war. and Colonel Thomas Hamus
[167:48] served in Iraq two years ago, author of
[167:51] The Sling and the Stone on War in the
[167:53] 21st century. Uh, General, Colonel,
[167:55] thank you very much for being here.
[167:57] General Trainer, let me begin with you.
[167:59] Uh, the White House declines to say that
[168:02] this is a civil war at this point. Uh,
[168:05] UN Secretary General Kofannan uh does as
[168:08] well. Uh, does it matter what we call
[168:10] it?
[168:11] >> Lou, I don't I don't think it really is.
[168:13] It's a semantic game. Whether it's a
[168:15] civil war, whether it's a sectarian war
[168:18] or religious war, the fact is it's a
[168:21] it's a bloody conflict of retribution
[168:23] between the two major factions within
[168:27] Iraq, the Shia and the Sunnis. Senator
[168:29] constitutes civil war or not, I think
[168:31] it's incidental.
[168:32] >> Senator Chuck Hegel, u of course,
[168:34] Congressman John Murtha, both now
[168:37] calling for withdrawal. U General
[168:40] Trainer, should we
[168:41] >> Well, that that that's an option
[168:42] obviously. Uh, but there's the danger
[168:45] that you're jumping out of the frying
[168:47] pan into the fire if you all of a sudden
[168:49] abandon or even abandon Iraq on on some
[168:52] sort of a of a timetable. The president
[168:55] clearly has made it known that he's
[168:57] going to hang tough there and and depend
[168:59] upon the emergence of an effective unity
[169:02] government and most importantly an
[169:05] effective Iraqi military force to take
[169:07] the burden off the Americans and assume
[169:08] the responsibility of a nation state.
[169:11] >> General, is that good enough? Is it
[169:13] time? Uh, as General Trainer put it, uh,
[169:15] the president's hanging tough, but he's
[169:17] also asking 140,000 of our troops to do
[169:20] so. Uh, what what do you think is the
[169:23] smartest thing the United States can do
[169:26] now? And is there anything smart we can
[169:28] do now?
[169:29] >> Lou, there is. If if we're going to
[169:31] admit that uh Iraq is going to remain a
[169:34] state in the in the uh status that it is
[169:36] right now, the one one nation with three
[169:38] major entities, uh we've got to get
[169:40] after the security forces, and we've got
[169:42] to get after it in a far more serious
[169:44] approach, a far more fundamental
[169:46] approach than uh than we've embarked
[169:48] upon yet.
[169:49] >> Define fundamental.
[169:51] uh we we have got to put far more uh US
[169:55] soldiers directly involved with the
[169:57] preparation and the training of the
[169:58] Iraqi security forces. Larger units
[170:01] right now the the 10-man team for
[170:03] battalion is just insufficient. Uh
[170:07] Lieutenant Colonel Doug Olivant has an
[170:09] approach. Uh he is written in military
[170:11] review and that's to put battalions uh
[170:14] integrated into uh Iraqi divisions and
[170:17] brigades. And if we if we get after it
[170:20] in that approach, it's a distribution or
[170:22] a redistribution of American forces with
[170:25] intent to provide security.
[170:27] >> General Ham, do you agree?
[170:28] >> I think if we're going to make any
[170:30] success, we've got to get serious about
[170:31] the security forces. We've also got to
[170:33] get serious about providing our own
[170:34] forces the equipment they need. Uh the
[170:37] administration has made a fundamentally
[170:38] immoral decision to not provide
[170:40] equipment to save money. We need to
[170:42] provide equipment.
[170:43] >> Say that again. They made a decision to
[170:46] not provide equipment for American
[170:48] forces and Iraqi forces. We have
[170:51] equipment backed up at repair depots and
[170:53] repair depots have been told not to work
[170:55] overtime or at least they are not
[170:56] working overtime. So we have young men
[170:58] and women training to go into a fight
[171:00] with no equipment.
[171:01] >> And I just learned today that we have
[171:04] fundraisers going on in this country to
[171:07] provide body armor for our troops. Uh
[171:10] let me the idea that we are sitting here
[171:13] talking about the the geopolitical and
[171:15] military aspects of this war uh at a
[171:19] time we're approaching it's now lasted
[171:21] longer uh than World War II at a time uh
[171:25] when we're approaching four years from
[171:27] the invasion date. U
[171:31] this is in this goes beyond geopolitics
[171:34] and and military strategy at this point.
[171:37] It seems to me this is a question of
[171:39] fundamental competence on the part of
[171:40] the US military. Am I wrong?
[171:42] >> No, I think you're right. I don't see
[171:44] any excuse that we have not if the
[171:46] military can't get the funds for it then
[171:48] they have got to make that known and we
[171:51] have to provide for the troops going
[171:53] into the fight. Uh General Eaton both
[171:55] you General Petraeus highly regarded
[171:57] highly respected officers training
[171:59] Iraqis and in different roles but
[172:01] training those Iraqi uh forces. How is
[172:04] it that we can be at this point where
[172:06] they're not adequately trained?
[172:09] >> Lou, it's a uh it is a fundamental issue
[172:12] with uh the the government of Iraq. The
[172:16] the king of Jordan, King Abdullah has
[172:20] asked his military to put a pin on their
[172:22] uniform, the uh the Jordanian flag with
[172:25] the number one superposed. And that's
[172:27] not we're number one. That's Jordan
[172:28] first. And uh when the Iraqi soldier
[172:31] believes that he is a uh a viable
[172:34] representative of the government for the
[172:37] security of the Iraqi people, then
[172:39] you'll see the Iraqi security forces
[172:41] stand up when they are properly
[172:42] equipped,
[172:43] >> right?
[172:43] >> Uh you'll see you'll see a better
[172:46] performance.
[172:46] >> General Trainer to to be at this
[172:49] position. Uh, Colonel Hammond is saying
[172:51] that this that this administration has
[172:54] made an immoral decision not to fully
[172:56] train, equip, repair equipment. Um,
[173:01] does that mean the general staff of the
[173:02] United States military has also made an
[173:04] immoral decision not to to wrankle and
[173:07] to bridle and to deal with that issue? I
[173:09] don't want I don't want to deal with
[173:11] moral judgments, but let me say
[173:13] something, Lou, that we for three and a
[173:15] half years, uh, we have tried to put an
[173:18] effective Iraqi field force out there.
[173:20] Uh, and we haven't done done very well.
[173:23] They haven't stood up. Now, I don't know
[173:24] if it's feasible, but uh, it was seemed
[173:27] to me that it might be useful to try to
[173:29] put together a model unit. In other
[173:32] words, take our best advisers and
[173:35] trainers and put them with a unit. I I
[173:39] if you could get the some very ripe
[173:41] people both on the Sunni side and the
[173:43] Shia side and train those people aside
[173:46] from from everything else is going on so
[173:48] that you get an effective unit that
[173:50] they're effectively supported not only
[173:52] by the advisers but with the necessary
[173:54] equipment and put them in the field and
[173:57] get them in that first fight and show
[173:59] that they can win and then they become a
[174:01] symbol for the rest of the Iraqi armed
[174:03] forces. General Trainer, didn't we know
[174:05] this good lord three and a half years
[174:07] ago?
[174:08] >> Well, I have to tell you, Lou, I'm
[174:10] surprised that uh that we didn't do
[174:13] better than than we've done. I mean,
[174:15] General Eaton is a better position to
[174:17] answer that question than I am.
[174:19] >> General Trainer has handed off to you
[174:20] very quickly, General.
[174:22] >> No, it it's been a half-hearted effort
[174:24] from the very beginning. We have failed
[174:25] to mobilize the nation and mobilize the
[174:28] requisite number of forces and and uh
[174:31] and and dollars. I I can't put it more
[174:33] simply than that.
[174:34] >> To provide for the Iraqi security
[174:36] forces.
[174:37] >> Hamas, you got the last word here. What
[174:39] is Do we have a intelligent effective
[174:44] option left here or are we looking at a
[174:48] question of withdrawal? It's just a
[174:50] question of time.
[174:51] >> I think all the options. It's a matter
[174:53] of picking the least bad option. We
[174:55] raced into this uh fight because we only
[174:58] had one view of how Iraq would turn out.
[175:00] If we are going to talk about withdrawal
[175:02] then we have to look at the various
[175:03] things that could happen.
[175:05] >> You foundation
[175:07] >> uh we stay we prepare the Iraqi armed
[175:10] forces. We also plan for total civil war
[175:13] and what we do if we have to get out.
[175:16] >> Colonel Hamus, General Eaton, General
[175:19] Trainer. Thank you gentlemen for being
[175:21] here.
[175:22] >> Thanks Luke.
[175:23] >> Even if we have to look the as you put
[175:26] it some very bad choices straight in the
[175:28] face. Thank you gentlemen.
[175:30] Coming up shortly here, the situation
[175:32] room with Wolf Blitzer. Wolf.
[175:34] >> Thanks, Lou. Good discussion. Three
[175:36] kisses between Iran and Iraq. The
[175:38] leaders of the two nations meet ahead of
[175:40] a visit by President Bush to the region.
[175:42] A look at Iran's growing influence as a
[175:45] power player in the region. We'll have
[175:46] that. Also, more on the civil war of
[175:49] words over Iraq. The fight over
[175:51] semantics as the death toll continues to
[175:54] mount. Plus, Michael Richards, our
[175:56] interview with the former Seinfeld star
[175:58] after his racist rant and blonde bond.
[176:02] The new spy icon gets revenge on his
[176:04] critics. Genie Mos is on the story. All
[176:06] that, Lou, coming up at the top of the
[176:08] hour.
[176:09] >> Genie Mos on this story. All right,
[176:11] thank you very much, Wolf. Still ahead
[176:13] here, we'll have the results of our
[176:14] poll. Stay with us.
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[178:45] for just one quick email here. Tom in
[178:48] Ohio writes, "Hello, all I want for
[178:49] Christmas is something new to have our
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[178:57] your thoughts at ludos.com. Thanks for
[178:59] being with us tonight. Please join us
[179:00] tomorrow. For all of us, thanks for
[179:01] watching. And good night from New York.
[179:03] The situation room with Wolf Blitzer
[179:05] begins now. Wol,
[179:06] >> thanks very much Lou. And to our
[179:08] viewers, you're in the situation room
[179:09] where new pictures and information are
[179:11] arriving all the time. standing by CNN
[179:14] reporters across the United States and
[179:16] around the world to bring you tonight's
[179:18] top stories happening now as American