Nightline (ABC) - 1999-07-26

Channel: malgent

Transcript

Language: English (original, YouTube automatic captions)

[0:01] July 26th, 1999.

[0:10] >> For some, even today, it's a symbol of

[0:13] pride and history. I see honor, courage,

[0:16] valor. I see the red, white, and blue,

[0:18] and the the blood of sacrifice that ran

[0:21] through that battle. For others, it

[0:24] represents racism and hate.

[0:26] >> I see oppression. I see segregation. I

[0:29] see slavery

[0:31] >> in South Carolina. It's a war of values

[0:34] >> down here. Family, history, lineage,

[0:38] culture is a very important aspect. And

[0:40] they don't take it lightly that you try

[0:42] to destroy history.

[0:43] >> There is no existing sovereign

[0:46] government called the Confederate States

[0:48] of America. They lost the war.

[0:52] >> Tonight, the battle over the Confederate

[0:54] flag.

[0:59] from ABC News.

[1:04] This is Night Line, substituting for Ted

[1:07] Cppelin, reporting from Washington,

[1:10] Chris Wallace.

[1:12] It seems that during the first battle of

[1:14] Bull Run, Southern General PG Boragard

[1:17] could not distinguish his flag from the

[1:19] Yankee Stars and Stripes. And so he

[1:22] commissioned what became known as the

[1:23] Confederate battle flag. That

[1:26] distinctive crisscross of 13 stars

[1:28] against a field of red. It has been 134

[1:32] years since the Confederate flag was

[1:34] last carried into battle. But in the

[1:37] decades since, it has been a symbol of

[1:39] southern pride, resistance to the civil

[1:41] rights movement, outright racism, and

[1:44] good old boy rebellion. Now on the brink

[1:47] of a new millennium, it has also started

[1:50] one more battle. The Confederate flag

[1:52] still flies over South Carolina's state

[1:55] capital. And two weeks ago, the NAACP

[1:58] announced a boycott that it is trying to

[2:01] get black groups and individuals to stop

[2:03] visiting the state until the flag comes

[2:06] down. It's an issue that cuts close to

[2:09] the bone for both blacks and whites in

[2:11] South Carolina. As ABC's Mike Von F

[2:14] reports,

[2:16] >> from the plantations with the thick moss

[2:19] hanging from the old oaks to the narrow

[2:21] city streets to the harbor, there is

[2:24] good reason so much of Charleston looks

[2:27] as if time has stood still.

[2:30] Many here feel the need not just to

[2:32] preserve the past, but to protect it.

[2:34] State Senator Glenn McConnell owns a

[2:36] store that specializes in Confederate

[2:39] memorabilia. When you see that flag

[2:42] being raised up, what do you see?

[2:45] >> I see honor, courage, valor. I see the

[2:48] red, white, and blue. And the the the

[2:50] blood of sacrifice that ran through that

[2:52] battle and the people that carried that

[2:54] flag. I don't see black and white. I

[2:56] don't see racism.

[2:57] >> But racism is exactly what others see.

[3:00] >> When I see the flag, I see oppression. I

[3:03] see segregation. I see slavery and all

[3:07] of the things that are a disadvantage to

[3:11] uh the afroamerican people.

[3:14] >> At the Boon plantation in Charleston,

[3:17] where many tourists are eager to see the

[3:19] grandeur in the main house,

[3:21] the Vernon family from North Carolina

[3:24] was much more interested in a different

[3:26] part of the plantation, the slave

[3:28] quarters.

[3:28] >> 18 to 25 people living in one one room.

[3:31] >> I wouldn't want to live like that. The

[3:33] family gets together once a year for a

[3:35] reunion. They say they will not be

[3:38] coming back to South Carolina next year

[3:40] unless the flag is removed.

[3:42] >> Slavery is a thing of the past that

[3:44] everybody should be uh ashamed of.

[3:47] >> And does flying that flag

[3:50] perpetuated in some?

[3:51] >> Oh, absolutely. It represented the worst

[3:53] in America. And most decent Americans

[3:56] don't want to see as a as a symbol the

[4:00] worst in America. We want to see the

[4:02] best in America.

[4:04] >> It was here in Charleston's harbor 138

[4:07] years ago that the first shots of the

[4:09] Civil War were fired. It was a very

[4:11] different struggle, the 30th anniversary

[4:14] of the Charleston Hospital Workers

[4:15] Strike that the Southern Christian

[4:17] Leadership Conference hoped to honor

[4:19] this week at its annual convention. This

[4:22] hotel had been reserved and many had

[4:24] purchased non-refundable airline

[4:25] tickets. Flyers promoting speakers such

[4:28] as Rosa Parks and Jesse Jackson had

[4:31] already been printed and circulated. But

[4:33] then the NAACP called for a nationwide

[4:36] boycott of South Carolina.

[4:38] >> Some of us felt shocked, others felt

[4:42] disappointed, and some even felt a bit

[4:44] betrayed. But what we all felt was that

[4:48] it was the right thing to do to call for

[4:51] the removal of the flag from flying in

[4:54] this state.

[4:56] Martin Luther King III, the new

[4:58] president of the SCC, held a rally here

[5:00] last night encouraging supporters to

[5:02] make the boycott hurt. There's a $6.5

[5:06] billion tourism economy here. And of

[5:10] that $6.5 billion,

[5:12] black folk make up $2.5 billion dollars

[5:15] of it.

[5:16] >> And when black folk decide not to spend

[5:20] dollars,

[5:22] change comes.

[5:25] Other African-American churches here are

[5:27] now spreading the word.

[5:29] >> Tell folk if they ask if it's real, that

[5:31] the boycott is real, that everybody is

[5:33] in it for the long haul, and that if God

[5:36] is in it, victory will be ours. If you

[5:39] believe it, let the church say, "Amen."

[5:42] >> Many here who love the flag say they

[5:45] deplore the hate groups such as the KKK

[5:47] and the skin heads who've adopted the

[5:49] battle flag as their symbol. It hurts us

[5:52] to see groups like the clan holding that

[5:54] flag. You want to talk about a sick

[5:56] feeling? Our groups, our historical

[5:58] groups, we're disgusted when we see it.

[6:00] But we're equally disgusted and sickened

[6:02] by the political rhetoric and people say

[6:05] it's an emblem of racism. It's an emblem

[6:07] of hate. It's shameful and all of this.

[6:09] How do they think we feel when it's the

[6:11] emblem of our ancestors? They hurt our

[6:13] feelings. This symbol

[6:16] that may have something to do with one's

[6:18] heritage

[6:20] perhaps belongs in a museum but not to

[6:23] be FLOWN OVER THE STATE CAPITAL. It is

[6:26] something that we will not and we cannot

[6:29] tolerate BECAUSE ENOUGH IS ENOUGH.

[6:32] Several years ago, political leaders

[6:34] thought they had found a solution to

[6:36] this long simmering problem. The flag

[6:38] would have been taken down from a top

[6:40] the capital dome but raised above the

[6:42] Confederate monument at the steps

[6:44] leading up to the capital.

[6:46] >> Here we go. Stand by. Thank you the

[6:47] governor. Thank you for joining me

[6:49] tonight for what I

[6:50] >> in 1996. Then Governor David Beasley

[6:53] went on statewide prime time television.

[6:56] >> He pleaded with voters to support his

[6:58] compromise.

[6:59] >> I'm asking the leadership of both sides

[7:01] to meet me halfway. Let's end this

[7:04] debate once and for all. The debate did

[7:07] not end and the governor, in part

[7:09] because of the flag issue, lost his job.

[7:11] >> We made the the tough call. We said,

[7:14] "Let's put aside political consequences.

[7:16] Let's do what we think's right and let

[7:18] the political chips fall where they

[7:19] may." And they did.

[7:22] >> Today, Beasley warns that the flag issue

[7:25] will not be resolved anytime soon and

[7:27] cautions,

[7:28] >> you put Southerners in a corner, they

[7:29] going to come out fighting right or

[7:31] wrong. And that's not the approach. And

[7:33] today, what makes the possibility of a

[7:35] compromise so remote is that many in

[7:38] South Carolina seem to feel that a

[7:40] boycott is a small price to pay to keep

[7:43] the flag flying over their capital. We

[7:45] will teach generations to come about the

[7:49] honor of these people. And if they are

[7:51] going to choose the road of trying to

[7:54] stereotype us as racist and hate

[7:57] mongers, then we are forever divided.

[8:02] To this day, the sons and daughters of

[8:03] the Confederacy mark the graves of their

[8:06] forefathers with bronze stars. And when

[8:09] the original tombstones fade, they place

[8:11] new ones to mark their ancestors graves.

[8:14] It will be hard to convince them to give

[8:16] up a symbol that many of their loved

[8:18] ones quite literally carried to their

[8:20] grave. This is Mike Vonfrem for Night

[8:23] Line in Charleston.

[8:26] So, is it southern pride or is it racism

[8:29] and hate? The battle over the

[8:31] Confederate flag when we come back.

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[11:05] And we are joined now by two South

[11:07] Carolina state senators. From

[11:08] Charleston, Arthur Ravnell Jr., and from

[11:11] Indianapolis, Robert Ford. And joining

[11:14] us from Atlanta, Martin Luther King III,

[11:17] the president of the Southern Christian

[11:18] Leadership Conference. Senator Ravnell,

[11:21] can you understand why some blacks are

[11:24] offended by the Confederate flag flying

[11:26] over the state capital that they would

[11:28] see it in some sense as the state

[11:30] sponsoring a symbol of racism?

[11:33] Well, you know, I hear what they say,

[11:35] sir, but uh to me, the flag flies as a

[11:38] memorial to those 20,000 South

[11:40] Carolinians who answered their state's

[11:43] call when South Carolina was invaded

[11:45] back in 1861

[11:47] and gave their lives uh in def in

[11:49] defense of their state. And uh I

[11:52] understand, you know, how they feel, but

[11:54] uh I would hope that they understand how

[11:57] a great many South Carolinians feel. and

[12:00] uh it's a southern icon and we feel uh

[12:03] very defensive about it and we're very

[12:05] emotional about it.

[12:06] >> Mr. What about what Senator Ravnell and

[12:09] a lot of other white southerners say

[12:10] that this isn't this flag isn't about

[12:13] racism, it's about honoring their

[12:14] history. Well, I think history should be

[12:17] honored and I think an appropriate place

[12:18] for history to be honored is in perhaps

[12:20] in a museum, not uh a symbol of

[12:24] unification because the flag

[12:26] unfortunately does not represent

[12:28] unification. Yes, there may be uh

[12:30] Confederate soldiers who certainly

[12:32] fought for a system that created

[12:35] oppression for a number of people in

[12:36] this nation. I also think that

[12:39] interestingly enough, the flag did not

[12:41] begin to be flown until 1961.

[12:44] uh a direct uh symbol, it seems to me,

[12:48] to say we're going to um continue to

[12:52] represent oppression and we don't care

[12:54] what anyone thinks. And my only position

[12:56] is that in the 20 the 21st century when

[12:59] we're talking about global issues, we

[13:01] really don't need to remind people of

[13:04] vestigages of the past in a in such a

[13:07] negative way. Senator Ford, you have uh

[13:10] proposed, I believe it is five different

[13:12] bills over the years to take the flag

[13:13] down and you've lost every time. Given

[13:16] the politics of South Carolina, how

[13:19] effective do you think this boycott idea

[13:21] will be?

[13:21] >> It's it's just so difficult when you see

[13:24] two groups of people that have so much

[13:27] in common in South Carolina that going

[13:30] to be fighting over issue like this uh

[13:32] going up into the new millennium. And I

[13:34] really think that civilized people like

[13:37] blacks and whites living in South

[13:38] Carolina, I'm sure that we could come up

[13:41] with something that would probably uh

[13:43] show the rest of the country and rest of

[13:45] the world that we that those of us

[13:47] living in South Carolina, we can uh be

[13:49] civilized. We can act with some

[13:51] intelligent and we should respect

[13:52] history of both African-Americans and

[13:55] the whites who uh love the Confederacy.

[13:58] >> Well, Senator Ford, given that, do you

[14:00] think that a boycott would work? would

[14:01] force white southerners in South

[14:03] Carolina to take down the flag.

[14:05] >> I've been to about 150 different

[14:07] activities uh pertaining to the

[14:09] Confederacy because I wanted to learn

[14:11] what make Arthur Ravenell, Glenn

[14:14] McConna, and those people in South

[14:15] Carolina and Georgia, Mississippi, what

[14:17] make them love the Confederacy and what

[14:19] love the Confederate flag so much. Those

[14:22] people in South Carolina who love the

[14:24] Confederacy, they are too stubborn. And

[14:26] what I beg from the black community and

[14:28] black leadership and black ministers and

[14:31] civil rights organization, we need to

[14:33] sit down with the with those people that

[14:35] love the Confederate flag. We need to

[14:37] sit down as brothers and sisters and see

[14:39] if we could work something out because

[14:42] legislation will be stalled in the South

[14:44] Carolina General Assembly because we

[14:46] going to be fighting about assembly.

[14:50] >> Well, the boy would not solve the

[14:52] problem.

[14:52] >> Well, let me bring in Senator Rap. Now,

[14:54] you heard Senator Ford talk about some

[14:57] Southerners in South Carolina being

[14:59] being too stubborn. In fact, would would

[15:01] a boycott force it? I mean,

[15:03] >> oh, no, no, no, no. You know, we're kind

[15:06] of amused by the boycott uh you know, in

[15:09] deference to everyone concerned um

[15:12] because we know that the boycott's not

[15:14] going to be successful and the uh the

[15:16] general assembly is not going is not

[15:18] going to going to take down the flag.

[15:20] But there is great promise and great

[15:22] hope in what Senator Ford is espousing

[15:25] and uh we call it the new politics for

[15:28] the new millennium and uh we feel that

[15:31] everybody's got to have a place at the

[15:32] table. Could I could I just add a word?

[15:35] Uh I might remind you that in the state

[15:37] of Arizona, Arizona was not going to

[15:40] have a Martin Luther King holiday. when

[15:42] dollars were exercised and spent

[15:45] elsewhere, all of a sudden Arizona just

[15:48] decided we need to have a Martin Luther

[15:50] King holiday. This in a sense is maybe a

[15:53] similar issue. And I think the timing is

[15:55] right. I do not believe, however, that

[15:58] one should take away one's history and

[16:00] heritage. I just think that history and

[16:02] heritage belongs in a museum and we need

[16:05] to be figuring out how we can build

[16:06] bridges to bring people together.

[16:08] Perhaps there's a compromise. I don't

[16:10] know what that compromise is at this

[16:12] point.

[16:13] >> Well, uh, Mr. King and gentlemen, let

[16:14] let me uh break in here just for a

[16:16] moment because there is an idea. Senator

[16:17] Ford has an idea for a compromise and

[16:19] let's discuss that when we return and

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[19:13] And we're back again with South Carolina

[19:16] state senators Arthur Ravnell Jr. and

[19:18] Robert Ford and with Martin Luther King

[19:20] III. Senator Ford, after trying

[19:22] unsuccessfully for years to get the

[19:25] Confederate flag taken down, as we've

[19:26] mentioned, you have come up with a

[19:28] compromise. Briefly, tell us about it.

[19:30] Chris, we got 37 South Carolina uh

[19:32] senators uh including a lot of them are

[19:35] Confederate lover of the Confederacy who

[19:37] say that they are willing to fly the

[19:38] liberation flag which is Marcus Garvey

[19:41] red, black and green flag that uh came

[19:43] about during the 1920 movement led by

[19:46] Marcus Garvey and about 2 million

[19:48] African-American living in uh in this

[19:50] country. It's the red, black, and green

[19:52] liberation flag. by putting that flag

[19:54] over the state house and these and 37

[19:56] senators say that they're willing to do

[19:58] that. I think that would solve the

[19:59] problem of the with the Confederate flag

[20:02] because we don't need this kind of

[20:03] bickering and fighting because as a as a

[20:05] Senate we would never be able to get

[20:07] anything done fighting this uh boycott

[20:09] and fighting to take down the

[20:10] Confederate flag. So, I think my

[20:12] compromise make a lot of sense and have

[20:13] a lot of merit.

[20:14] >> Senator Ravnell, uh what about that? In

[20:16] other words, you keep the Confederate

[20:18] flag flying over the state house, but in

[20:20] addition, you add this black liberation

[20:22] flag. Well, what uh Senator Ford wants

[20:24] to do is he wants to fly Black History

[20:26] Month and other significant dates that

[20:28] uh you know mean a lot to uh our our

[20:30] black citizens. And of course, I'm a

[20:32] co-sponsor of it. I'm an enthusiastic

[20:34] co-sponsor of it. And uh we feel for the

[20:38] new millennium what what we have to do

[20:39] is we have to really get involved with

[20:42] tolerance. And tolerance is is you

[20:44] tolerate what I love, but you might not

[20:47] uh particularly like, and I'll do the

[20:49] same for you. We getting on fine in the

[20:51] state senate and it's it's just a in in

[20:54] my mind it's just a shame now that the

[20:56] NAACP is going to come along and and

[20:59] stir the pot. It does not need to do

[21:01] that m Mr. King and obviously as we you

[21:04] represent the not the NAACP. But is that

[21:07] acceptable to you if you get the black

[21:09] liberation flag that you would you would

[21:11] still allow the Confederate flag with

[21:12] all that you say that it represents to

[21:14] continue flying over the state capital?

[21:16] >> I certainly think that is a decision

[21:17] that the people of South Carolina have

[21:19] to make. But what I do believe is that

[21:21] when you segregate and segment it, I

[21:23] mean, you're talking about a flag that

[21:25] does not fly like the Confederate flag.

[21:27] It only flies at certain times of the

[21:29] year. It's almost like saying, "Well,

[21:31] we'll give you black folk just a little

[21:32] bit, but we're not going to really give

[21:34] you too much because

[21:35] >> some of the revenue you would you agree

[21:38] to fly it year round?"

[21:40] Well, Robert, you you you you know, you

[21:43] uh your your your thoughts are so

[21:45] forwardlooking and mean so much to

[21:47] racial harmony in South Carolina that I

[21:49] believe that I and and and the other

[21:51] senators who support you and

[21:53] enthusiastically. So, I believe that uh

[21:55] you know, if the if if the Black Caucus

[21:58] there in the uh in our general assembly

[22:00] would would want to fly it year round,

[22:02] I'd be happy to go along with that.

[22:04] that, you know, we added 20 additional

[22:06] feet to our flag pole and we put it a

[22:09] halot on the on the pole and so we got

[22:11] plenty of room there for the uh black

[22:13] liberation flag.

[22:14] >> We seem to be doing a little bit of

[22:15] legislative give and take right here on

[22:17] on night line. Let me ask you if I

[22:19] might, Mr. King, you know, there has

[22:21] been some mention of the fact that not

[22:22] the separate flag, but in fact that the

[22:24] Confederate symbol incorporated into the

[22:26] state flag flies over the Mississippi

[22:29] state legislature and also your own home

[22:31] state of Georgia. What about that? Well,

[22:33] I in in fact uh I do believe that uh as

[22:38] the boycott uh gone of steam and perhaps

[22:41] uh it needs to be known that already two

[22:44] other organizations have decided to

[22:46] honor the boycott. We we are honoring

[22:48] what the NAACP called for. We did not

[22:51] call for the boycott, but we are

[22:52] honoring it. Uh secondly, I believe that

[22:55] South Carolina, according to what it

[22:57] does, will also send a message to

[22:59] Georgia, my state, as well as uh

[23:01] Mississippi. Uh but uh again, I do

[23:04] believe that when you take dollars and

[23:07] decide to exercise using them elsewhere,

[23:10] uh when African-Americans spend about

[23:11] $2.5 billion in the state, uh when those

[23:14] dollars are removed and there are many

[23:17] whites who will join this cause as well,

[23:19] I think that it becomes a different uh

[23:22] issue.

[23:22] >> Mr. King, what do you what do you make

[23:24] of the fact that here we are on the on

[23:26] the cusp of a new millennium and we're

[23:28] still arguing about the Confederate

[23:30] flag? What does that say to you about

[23:31] the state of race relations?

[23:32] >> It just says we have a long, long way to

[23:34] go. In in America, whites think that we

[23:36] have no race problems. Many blacks, if

[23:39] you do polls, you'll find out that

[23:41] blacks feel that they are serious racial

[23:42] problems. Black folk are discriminated

[23:45] against every day. Does that mean that

[23:46] white people are bad people? No. What it

[23:48] means is that sometimes there are

[23:51] because of institutional racism, there

[23:53] are insensitivities that we all need to

[23:56] find ways to broaden our horizons. I'm

[23:59] discriminated against even as Martin

[24:01] Luther King III every week in some way,

[24:03] form or fashion. And it does again it

[24:05] does not mean those individuals are bad

[24:07] people. It just means that we have to

[24:09] find a way to truly embrace diversity

[24:11] and truly begin to accept other cultures

[24:14] because we are a great nation and in

[24:17] fact we can become the greatest nation

[24:18] in the world.

[24:19] >> And Senator Rabnau, let me finish with

[24:21] you. Your thoughts the state of race

[24:22] relations of the millennium when when

[24:24] we're still arguing about the

[24:25] Confederate flag.

[24:27] >> Well, as Mr. King said, uh, you know, we

[24:30] have so many other problems and the

[24:32] black community has so many problems. I

[24:34] don't know why in the world they want to

[24:35] get worried about the worry about the

[24:37] the uh Confederate battle flag. And how

[24:40] about me, Mr. King? I mean, you know, I

[24:42] love and re and cherish uh uh the

[24:46] Confederate battle flag. When you want

[24:48] to take it down or if you take it down,

[24:50] pull it down, move it, or whatever,

[24:52] don't you discriminate against me? How

[24:54] about me? I mean, man,

[24:56] I work my heart out for for black causes

[24:59] and for black folks. I represent a whole

[25:01] lot of them. I work very closely with

[25:03] Senator Ford and the black senators in

[25:06] in our Senate and we just getting on

[25:08] fine. And so, man, don't don't try to

[25:11] don't try to mess us up. Don't uh you

[25:13] know, don't throw any gasoline on.

[25:15] >> Once again, there were people who said

[25:16] that, "Well, Martin Luther King, Jr., we

[25:19] we're getting along just fine. Why are

[25:20] you coming in our community stirring up

[25:22] things?" leadership says that we have to

[25:25] stand up for that which is is right and

[25:27] not that senator we would want to do

[25:29] anything that violates your right.

[25:31] Certainly again I say the appropriate

[25:34] place for a flag is in a museum not

[25:36] flying over a state because it

[25:38] represents so much negativity and hurt

[25:40] for people and perhaps if we could find

[25:42] a way to switch sides. In other words,

[25:44] if I could find a way to become white

[25:46] all of a sudden or you could find a way

[25:48] to become black, uh then I think we

[25:50] would have a different perspective and

[25:53] perhaps both of us could open our minds

[25:55] broader.

[25:56] >> Gentlemen, we're going to have to leave

[25:57] it there. That seems as good a place as

[25:58] any to to end this discussion. We

[26:00] appreciate all three of you joining us

[26:02] tonight.

[26:02] >> Thank you.

[26:02] >> Thank you.

[26:03] >> And I'll be back in a moment.

[26:08] >> Okay, the Hollywood Bowl. Okay, I go

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[28:45] >> Tomorrow on Good Morning America, one

[28:47] woman's account of meeting the man who

[28:49] confessed to the Yoseite murder. And

[28:51] that's our report for tonight. I'm Chris

[28:53] Wallace in Washington. For all of us

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[29:57] Ladies and gentlemen, the star of

[29:59] politically incorrect, Bill Maher.

[30:07] Bill's guest tonight, Rita Rner, South

[30:10] Nater, Biohazards, Evan Seinfeld, and

[30:13] Scott Stewart.

[30:16] Thank you very much, ladies and

[30:18] gentlemen.

[30:20] Beautiful.

[30:22] Beautiful. Wow.

[30:25] People

[30:26] are obviously on vacation. Thank you so

[30:30] much.