Nightline (ABC) - 1999-07-26
Channel: malgent
Transcript
Language: English (original, YouTube automatic captions)
[0:01] July 26th, 1999.
[0:10] >> For some, even today, it's a symbol of
[0:13] pride and history. I see honor, courage,
[0:16] valor. I see the red, white, and blue,
[0:18] and the the blood of sacrifice that ran
[0:21] through that battle. For others, it
[0:24] represents racism and hate.
[0:26] >> I see oppression. I see segregation. I
[0:29] see slavery
[0:31] >> in South Carolina. It's a war of values
[0:34] >> down here. Family, history, lineage,
[0:38] culture is a very important aspect. And
[0:40] they don't take it lightly that you try
[0:42] to destroy history.
[0:43] >> There is no existing sovereign
[0:46] government called the Confederate States
[0:48] of America. They lost the war.
[0:52] >> Tonight, the battle over the Confederate
[0:54] flag.
[0:59] from ABC News.
[1:04] This is Night Line, substituting for Ted
[1:07] Cppelin, reporting from Washington,
[1:10] Chris Wallace.
[1:12] It seems that during the first battle of
[1:14] Bull Run, Southern General PG Boragard
[1:17] could not distinguish his flag from the
[1:19] Yankee Stars and Stripes. And so he
[1:22] commissioned what became known as the
[1:23] Confederate battle flag. That
[1:26] distinctive crisscross of 13 stars
[1:28] against a field of red. It has been 134
[1:32] years since the Confederate flag was
[1:34] last carried into battle. But in the
[1:37] decades since, it has been a symbol of
[1:39] southern pride, resistance to the civil
[1:41] rights movement, outright racism, and
[1:44] good old boy rebellion. Now on the brink
[1:47] of a new millennium, it has also started
[1:50] one more battle. The Confederate flag
[1:52] still flies over South Carolina's state
[1:55] capital. And two weeks ago, the NAACP
[1:58] announced a boycott that it is trying to
[2:01] get black groups and individuals to stop
[2:03] visiting the state until the flag comes
[2:06] down. It's an issue that cuts close to
[2:09] the bone for both blacks and whites in
[2:11] South Carolina. As ABC's Mike Von F
[2:14] reports,
[2:16] >> from the plantations with the thick moss
[2:19] hanging from the old oaks to the narrow
[2:21] city streets to the harbor, there is
[2:24] good reason so much of Charleston looks
[2:27] as if time has stood still.
[2:30] Many here feel the need not just to
[2:32] preserve the past, but to protect it.
[2:34] State Senator Glenn McConnell owns a
[2:36] store that specializes in Confederate
[2:39] memorabilia. When you see that flag
[2:42] being raised up, what do you see?
[2:45] >> I see honor, courage, valor. I see the
[2:48] red, white, and blue. And the the the
[2:50] blood of sacrifice that ran through that
[2:52] battle and the people that carried that
[2:54] flag. I don't see black and white. I
[2:56] don't see racism.
[2:57] >> But racism is exactly what others see.
[3:00] >> When I see the flag, I see oppression. I
[3:03] see segregation. I see slavery and all
[3:07] of the things that are a disadvantage to
[3:11] uh the afroamerican people.
[3:14] >> At the Boon plantation in Charleston,
[3:17] where many tourists are eager to see the
[3:19] grandeur in the main house,
[3:21] the Vernon family from North Carolina
[3:24] was much more interested in a different
[3:26] part of the plantation, the slave
[3:28] quarters.
[3:28] >> 18 to 25 people living in one one room.
[3:31] >> I wouldn't want to live like that. The
[3:33] family gets together once a year for a
[3:35] reunion. They say they will not be
[3:38] coming back to South Carolina next year
[3:40] unless the flag is removed.
[3:42] >> Slavery is a thing of the past that
[3:44] everybody should be uh ashamed of.
[3:47] >> And does flying that flag
[3:50] perpetuated in some?
[3:51] >> Oh, absolutely. It represented the worst
[3:53] in America. And most decent Americans
[3:56] don't want to see as a as a symbol the
[4:00] worst in America. We want to see the
[4:02] best in America.
[4:04] >> It was here in Charleston's harbor 138
[4:07] years ago that the first shots of the
[4:09] Civil War were fired. It was a very
[4:11] different struggle, the 30th anniversary
[4:14] of the Charleston Hospital Workers
[4:15] Strike that the Southern Christian
[4:17] Leadership Conference hoped to honor
[4:19] this week at its annual convention. This
[4:22] hotel had been reserved and many had
[4:24] purchased non-refundable airline
[4:25] tickets. Flyers promoting speakers such
[4:28] as Rosa Parks and Jesse Jackson had
[4:31] already been printed and circulated. But
[4:33] then the NAACP called for a nationwide
[4:36] boycott of South Carolina.
[4:38] >> Some of us felt shocked, others felt
[4:42] disappointed, and some even felt a bit
[4:44] betrayed. But what we all felt was that
[4:48] it was the right thing to do to call for
[4:51] the removal of the flag from flying in
[4:54] this state.
[4:56] Martin Luther King III, the new
[4:58] president of the SCC, held a rally here
[5:00] last night encouraging supporters to
[5:02] make the boycott hurt. There's a $6.5
[5:06] billion tourism economy here. And of
[5:10] that $6.5 billion,
[5:12] black folk make up $2.5 billion dollars
[5:15] of it.
[5:16] >> And when black folk decide not to spend
[5:20] dollars,
[5:22] change comes.
[5:25] Other African-American churches here are
[5:27] now spreading the word.
[5:29] >> Tell folk if they ask if it's real, that
[5:31] the boycott is real, that everybody is
[5:33] in it for the long haul, and that if God
[5:36] is in it, victory will be ours. If you
[5:39] believe it, let the church say, "Amen."
[5:42] >> Many here who love the flag say they
[5:45] deplore the hate groups such as the KKK
[5:47] and the skin heads who've adopted the
[5:49] battle flag as their symbol. It hurts us
[5:52] to see groups like the clan holding that
[5:54] flag. You want to talk about a sick
[5:56] feeling? Our groups, our historical
[5:58] groups, we're disgusted when we see it.
[6:00] But we're equally disgusted and sickened
[6:02] by the political rhetoric and people say
[6:05] it's an emblem of racism. It's an emblem
[6:07] of hate. It's shameful and all of this.
[6:09] How do they think we feel when it's the
[6:11] emblem of our ancestors? They hurt our
[6:13] feelings. This symbol
[6:16] that may have something to do with one's
[6:18] heritage
[6:20] perhaps belongs in a museum but not to
[6:23] be FLOWN OVER THE STATE CAPITAL. It is
[6:26] something that we will not and we cannot
[6:29] tolerate BECAUSE ENOUGH IS ENOUGH.
[6:32] Several years ago, political leaders
[6:34] thought they had found a solution to
[6:36] this long simmering problem. The flag
[6:38] would have been taken down from a top
[6:40] the capital dome but raised above the
[6:42] Confederate monument at the steps
[6:44] leading up to the capital.
[6:46] >> Here we go. Stand by. Thank you the
[6:47] governor. Thank you for joining me
[6:49] tonight for what I
[6:50] >> in 1996. Then Governor David Beasley
[6:53] went on statewide prime time television.
[6:56] >> He pleaded with voters to support his
[6:58] compromise.
[6:59] >> I'm asking the leadership of both sides
[7:01] to meet me halfway. Let's end this
[7:04] debate once and for all. The debate did
[7:07] not end and the governor, in part
[7:09] because of the flag issue, lost his job.
[7:11] >> We made the the tough call. We said,
[7:14] "Let's put aside political consequences.
[7:16] Let's do what we think's right and let
[7:18] the political chips fall where they
[7:19] may." And they did.
[7:22] >> Today, Beasley warns that the flag issue
[7:25] will not be resolved anytime soon and
[7:27] cautions,
[7:28] >> you put Southerners in a corner, they
[7:29] going to come out fighting right or
[7:31] wrong. And that's not the approach. And
[7:33] today, what makes the possibility of a
[7:35] compromise so remote is that many in
[7:38] South Carolina seem to feel that a
[7:40] boycott is a small price to pay to keep
[7:43] the flag flying over their capital. We
[7:45] will teach generations to come about the
[7:49] honor of these people. And if they are
[7:51] going to choose the road of trying to
[7:54] stereotype us as racist and hate
[7:57] mongers, then we are forever divided.
[8:02] To this day, the sons and daughters of
[8:03] the Confederacy mark the graves of their
[8:06] forefathers with bronze stars. And when
[8:09] the original tombstones fade, they place
[8:11] new ones to mark their ancestors graves.
[8:14] It will be hard to convince them to give
[8:16] up a symbol that many of their loved
[8:18] ones quite literally carried to their
[8:20] grave. This is Mike Vonfrem for Night
[8:23] Line in Charleston.
[8:26] So, is it southern pride or is it racism
[8:29] and hate? The battle over the
[8:31] Confederate flag when we come back.
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[11:05] And we are joined now by two South
[11:07] Carolina state senators. From
[11:08] Charleston, Arthur Ravnell Jr., and from
[11:11] Indianapolis, Robert Ford. And joining
[11:14] us from Atlanta, Martin Luther King III,
[11:17] the president of the Southern Christian
[11:18] Leadership Conference. Senator Ravnell,
[11:21] can you understand why some blacks are
[11:24] offended by the Confederate flag flying
[11:26] over the state capital that they would
[11:28] see it in some sense as the state
[11:30] sponsoring a symbol of racism?
[11:33] Well, you know, I hear what they say,
[11:35] sir, but uh to me, the flag flies as a
[11:38] memorial to those 20,000 South
[11:40] Carolinians who answered their state's
[11:43] call when South Carolina was invaded
[11:45] back in 1861
[11:47] and gave their lives uh in def in
[11:49] defense of their state. And uh I
[11:52] understand, you know, how they feel, but
[11:54] uh I would hope that they understand how
[11:57] a great many South Carolinians feel. and
[12:00] uh it's a southern icon and we feel uh
[12:03] very defensive about it and we're very
[12:05] emotional about it.
[12:06] >> Mr. What about what Senator Ravnell and
[12:09] a lot of other white southerners say
[12:10] that this isn't this flag isn't about
[12:13] racism, it's about honoring their
[12:14] history. Well, I think history should be
[12:17] honored and I think an appropriate place
[12:18] for history to be honored is in perhaps
[12:20] in a museum, not uh a symbol of
[12:24] unification because the flag
[12:26] unfortunately does not represent
[12:28] unification. Yes, there may be uh
[12:30] Confederate soldiers who certainly
[12:32] fought for a system that created
[12:35] oppression for a number of people in
[12:36] this nation. I also think that
[12:39] interestingly enough, the flag did not
[12:41] begin to be flown until 1961.
[12:44] uh a direct uh symbol, it seems to me,
[12:48] to say we're going to um continue to
[12:52] represent oppression and we don't care
[12:54] what anyone thinks. And my only position
[12:56] is that in the 20 the 21st century when
[12:59] we're talking about global issues, we
[13:01] really don't need to remind people of
[13:04] vestigages of the past in a in such a
[13:07] negative way. Senator Ford, you have uh
[13:10] proposed, I believe it is five different
[13:12] bills over the years to take the flag
[13:13] down and you've lost every time. Given
[13:16] the politics of South Carolina, how
[13:19] effective do you think this boycott idea
[13:21] will be?
[13:21] >> It's it's just so difficult when you see
[13:24] two groups of people that have so much
[13:27] in common in South Carolina that going
[13:30] to be fighting over issue like this uh
[13:32] going up into the new millennium. And I
[13:34] really think that civilized people like
[13:37] blacks and whites living in South
[13:38] Carolina, I'm sure that we could come up
[13:41] with something that would probably uh
[13:43] show the rest of the country and rest of
[13:45] the world that we that those of us
[13:47] living in South Carolina, we can uh be
[13:49] civilized. We can act with some
[13:51] intelligent and we should respect
[13:52] history of both African-Americans and
[13:55] the whites who uh love the Confederacy.
[13:58] >> Well, Senator Ford, given that, do you
[14:00] think that a boycott would work? would
[14:01] force white southerners in South
[14:03] Carolina to take down the flag.
[14:05] >> I've been to about 150 different
[14:07] activities uh pertaining to the
[14:09] Confederacy because I wanted to learn
[14:11] what make Arthur Ravenell, Glenn
[14:14] McConna, and those people in South
[14:15] Carolina and Georgia, Mississippi, what
[14:17] make them love the Confederacy and what
[14:19] love the Confederate flag so much. Those
[14:22] people in South Carolina who love the
[14:24] Confederacy, they are too stubborn. And
[14:26] what I beg from the black community and
[14:28] black leadership and black ministers and
[14:31] civil rights organization, we need to
[14:33] sit down with the with those people that
[14:35] love the Confederate flag. We need to
[14:37] sit down as brothers and sisters and see
[14:39] if we could work something out because
[14:42] legislation will be stalled in the South
[14:44] Carolina General Assembly because we
[14:46] going to be fighting about assembly.
[14:50] >> Well, the boy would not solve the
[14:52] problem.
[14:52] >> Well, let me bring in Senator Rap. Now,
[14:54] you heard Senator Ford talk about some
[14:57] Southerners in South Carolina being
[14:59] being too stubborn. In fact, would would
[15:01] a boycott force it? I mean,
[15:03] >> oh, no, no, no, no. You know, we're kind
[15:06] of amused by the boycott uh you know, in
[15:09] deference to everyone concerned um
[15:12] because we know that the boycott's not
[15:14] going to be successful and the uh the
[15:16] general assembly is not going is not
[15:18] going to going to take down the flag.
[15:20] But there is great promise and great
[15:22] hope in what Senator Ford is espousing
[15:25] and uh we call it the new politics for
[15:28] the new millennium and uh we feel that
[15:31] everybody's got to have a place at the
[15:32] table. Could I could I just add a word?
[15:35] Uh I might remind you that in the state
[15:37] of Arizona, Arizona was not going to
[15:40] have a Martin Luther King holiday. when
[15:42] dollars were exercised and spent
[15:45] elsewhere, all of a sudden Arizona just
[15:48] decided we need to have a Martin Luther
[15:50] King holiday. This in a sense is maybe a
[15:53] similar issue. And I think the timing is
[15:55] right. I do not believe, however, that
[15:58] one should take away one's history and
[16:00] heritage. I just think that history and
[16:02] heritage belongs in a museum and we need
[16:05] to be figuring out how we can build
[16:06] bridges to bring people together.
[16:08] Perhaps there's a compromise. I don't
[16:10] know what that compromise is at this
[16:12] point.
[16:13] >> Well, uh, Mr. King and gentlemen, let
[16:14] let me uh break in here just for a
[16:16] moment because there is an idea. Senator
[16:17] Ford has an idea for a compromise and
[16:19] let's discuss that when we return and
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[19:13] And we're back again with South Carolina
[19:16] state senators Arthur Ravnell Jr. and
[19:18] Robert Ford and with Martin Luther King
[19:20] III. Senator Ford, after trying
[19:22] unsuccessfully for years to get the
[19:25] Confederate flag taken down, as we've
[19:26] mentioned, you have come up with a
[19:28] compromise. Briefly, tell us about it.
[19:30] Chris, we got 37 South Carolina uh
[19:32] senators uh including a lot of them are
[19:35] Confederate lover of the Confederacy who
[19:37] say that they are willing to fly the
[19:38] liberation flag which is Marcus Garvey
[19:41] red, black and green flag that uh came
[19:43] about during the 1920 movement led by
[19:46] Marcus Garvey and about 2 million
[19:48] African-American living in uh in this
[19:50] country. It's the red, black, and green
[19:52] liberation flag. by putting that flag
[19:54] over the state house and these and 37
[19:56] senators say that they're willing to do
[19:58] that. I think that would solve the
[19:59] problem of the with the Confederate flag
[20:02] because we don't need this kind of
[20:03] bickering and fighting because as a as a
[20:05] Senate we would never be able to get
[20:07] anything done fighting this uh boycott
[20:09] and fighting to take down the
[20:10] Confederate flag. So, I think my
[20:12] compromise make a lot of sense and have
[20:13] a lot of merit.
[20:14] >> Senator Ravnell, uh what about that? In
[20:16] other words, you keep the Confederate
[20:18] flag flying over the state house, but in
[20:20] addition, you add this black liberation
[20:22] flag. Well, what uh Senator Ford wants
[20:24] to do is he wants to fly Black History
[20:26] Month and other significant dates that
[20:28] uh you know mean a lot to uh our our
[20:30] black citizens. And of course, I'm a
[20:32] co-sponsor of it. I'm an enthusiastic
[20:34] co-sponsor of it. And uh we feel for the
[20:38] new millennium what what we have to do
[20:39] is we have to really get involved with
[20:42] tolerance. And tolerance is is you
[20:44] tolerate what I love, but you might not
[20:47] uh particularly like, and I'll do the
[20:49] same for you. We getting on fine in the
[20:51] state senate and it's it's just a in in
[20:54] my mind it's just a shame now that the
[20:56] NAACP is going to come along and and
[20:59] stir the pot. It does not need to do
[21:01] that m Mr. King and obviously as we you
[21:04] represent the not the NAACP. But is that
[21:07] acceptable to you if you get the black
[21:09] liberation flag that you would you would
[21:11] still allow the Confederate flag with
[21:12] all that you say that it represents to
[21:14] continue flying over the state capital?
[21:16] >> I certainly think that is a decision
[21:17] that the people of South Carolina have
[21:19] to make. But what I do believe is that
[21:21] when you segregate and segment it, I
[21:23] mean, you're talking about a flag that
[21:25] does not fly like the Confederate flag.
[21:27] It only flies at certain times of the
[21:29] year. It's almost like saying, "Well,
[21:31] we'll give you black folk just a little
[21:32] bit, but we're not going to really give
[21:34] you too much because
[21:35] >> some of the revenue you would you agree
[21:38] to fly it year round?"
[21:40] Well, Robert, you you you you know, you
[21:43] uh your your your thoughts are so
[21:45] forwardlooking and mean so much to
[21:47] racial harmony in South Carolina that I
[21:49] believe that I and and and the other
[21:51] senators who support you and
[21:53] enthusiastically. So, I believe that uh
[21:55] you know, if the if if the Black Caucus
[21:58] there in the uh in our general assembly
[22:00] would would want to fly it year round,
[22:02] I'd be happy to go along with that.
[22:04] that, you know, we added 20 additional
[22:06] feet to our flag pole and we put it a
[22:09] halot on the on the pole and so we got
[22:11] plenty of room there for the uh black
[22:13] liberation flag.
[22:14] >> We seem to be doing a little bit of
[22:15] legislative give and take right here on
[22:17] on night line. Let me ask you if I
[22:19] might, Mr. King, you know, there has
[22:21] been some mention of the fact that not
[22:22] the separate flag, but in fact that the
[22:24] Confederate symbol incorporated into the
[22:26] state flag flies over the Mississippi
[22:29] state legislature and also your own home
[22:31] state of Georgia. What about that? Well,
[22:33] I in in fact uh I do believe that uh as
[22:38] the boycott uh gone of steam and perhaps
[22:41] uh it needs to be known that already two
[22:44] other organizations have decided to
[22:46] honor the boycott. We we are honoring
[22:48] what the NAACP called for. We did not
[22:51] call for the boycott, but we are
[22:52] honoring it. Uh secondly, I believe that
[22:55] South Carolina, according to what it
[22:57] does, will also send a message to
[22:59] Georgia, my state, as well as uh
[23:01] Mississippi. Uh but uh again, I do
[23:04] believe that when you take dollars and
[23:07] decide to exercise using them elsewhere,
[23:10] uh when African-Americans spend about
[23:11] $2.5 billion in the state, uh when those
[23:14] dollars are removed and there are many
[23:17] whites who will join this cause as well,
[23:19] I think that it becomes a different uh
[23:22] issue.
[23:22] >> Mr. King, what do you what do you make
[23:24] of the fact that here we are on the on
[23:26] the cusp of a new millennium and we're
[23:28] still arguing about the Confederate
[23:30] flag? What does that say to you about
[23:31] the state of race relations?
[23:32] >> It just says we have a long, long way to
[23:34] go. In in America, whites think that we
[23:36] have no race problems. Many blacks, if
[23:39] you do polls, you'll find out that
[23:41] blacks feel that they are serious racial
[23:42] problems. Black folk are discriminated
[23:45] against every day. Does that mean that
[23:46] white people are bad people? No. What it
[23:48] means is that sometimes there are
[23:51] because of institutional racism, there
[23:53] are insensitivities that we all need to
[23:56] find ways to broaden our horizons. I'm
[23:59] discriminated against even as Martin
[24:01] Luther King III every week in some way,
[24:03] form or fashion. And it does again it
[24:05] does not mean those individuals are bad
[24:07] people. It just means that we have to
[24:09] find a way to truly embrace diversity
[24:11] and truly begin to accept other cultures
[24:14] because we are a great nation and in
[24:17] fact we can become the greatest nation
[24:18] in the world.
[24:19] >> And Senator Rabnau, let me finish with
[24:21] you. Your thoughts the state of race
[24:22] relations of the millennium when when
[24:24] we're still arguing about the
[24:25] Confederate flag.
[24:27] >> Well, as Mr. King said, uh, you know, we
[24:30] have so many other problems and the
[24:32] black community has so many problems. I
[24:34] don't know why in the world they want to
[24:35] get worried about the worry about the
[24:37] the uh Confederate battle flag. And how
[24:40] about me, Mr. King? I mean, you know, I
[24:42] love and re and cherish uh uh the
[24:46] Confederate battle flag. When you want
[24:48] to take it down or if you take it down,
[24:50] pull it down, move it, or whatever,
[24:52] don't you discriminate against me? How
[24:54] about me? I mean, man,
[24:56] I work my heart out for for black causes
[24:59] and for black folks. I represent a whole
[25:01] lot of them. I work very closely with
[25:03] Senator Ford and the black senators in
[25:06] in our Senate and we just getting on
[25:08] fine. And so, man, don't don't try to
[25:11] don't try to mess us up. Don't uh you
[25:13] know, don't throw any gasoline on.
[25:15] >> Once again, there were people who said
[25:16] that, "Well, Martin Luther King, Jr., we
[25:19] we're getting along just fine. Why are
[25:20] you coming in our community stirring up
[25:22] things?" leadership says that we have to
[25:25] stand up for that which is is right and
[25:27] not that senator we would want to do
[25:29] anything that violates your right.
[25:31] Certainly again I say the appropriate
[25:34] place for a flag is in a museum not
[25:36] flying over a state because it
[25:38] represents so much negativity and hurt
[25:40] for people and perhaps if we could find
[25:42] a way to switch sides. In other words,
[25:44] if I could find a way to become white
[25:46] all of a sudden or you could find a way
[25:48] to become black, uh then I think we
[25:50] would have a different perspective and
[25:53] perhaps both of us could open our minds
[25:55] broader.
[25:56] >> Gentlemen, we're going to have to leave
[25:57] it there. That seems as good a place as
[25:58] any to to end this discussion. We
[26:00] appreciate all three of you joining us
[26:02] tonight.
[26:02] >> Thank you.
[26:02] >> Thank you.
[26:03] >> And I'll be back in a moment.
[26:08] >> Okay, the Hollywood Bowl. Okay, I go
[26:09] left on the right. No, left. Right. Exit
[26:12] at Kanga. Stop on the five west on the
[26:14] 10 and when you see a massive sign, get
[26:16] off.
[26:16] >> Before you go here, go here. Whether
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[26:45] >> Avalon because peace and quiet aren't
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[28:45] >> Tomorrow on Good Morning America, one
[28:47] woman's account of meeting the man who
[28:49] confessed to the Yoseite murder. And
[28:51] that's our report for tonight. I'm Chris
[28:53] Wallace in Washington. For all of us
[28:55] here at ABC News, good night.
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[29:49] >> Storm Tracker 2000 only on News 2.
[29:57] Ladies and gentlemen, the star of
[29:59] politically incorrect, Bill Maher.
[30:07] Bill's guest tonight, Rita Rner, South
[30:10] Nater, Biohazards, Evan Seinfeld, and
[30:13] Scott Stewart.
[30:16] Thank you very much, ladies and
[30:18] gentlemen.
[30:20] Beautiful.
[30:22] Beautiful. Wow.
[30:25] People
[30:26] are obviously on vacation. Thank you so
[30:30] much.