Nightline (ABC) - 1996-02-14
Channel: malgent
Transcript
Language: English (original, YouTube automatic captions)
[0:00] who lost everything and how they're
[0:02] putting their lives back together.
[0:03] That's the Rivers Rage Thursday night
[0:05] from 9 until 11:00. Finally tonight, a
[0:08] new Northwest edition to our animal
[0:10] files. This 5 1/2 pound gorilla was born
[0:13] at Seattle's Woodland Park Zoo on
[0:15] Monday. It's the seventh successful
[0:17] gorilla birth at the zoo. The new
[0:19] arrival is significant because her
[0:21] father was captured in the wild. The
[0:22] infusion of genes will enhance the
[0:24] diversity of the captive gorilla gene
[0:26] pool. That's good news because since
[0:28] 1973 it's been illegal to catch gorillas
[0:31] u for captivity. So,
[0:33] >> and no monkeying around with that last
[0:34] look, Matt.
[0:36] >> Not at all. We're going to just jump
[0:37] right into it with both feet and arms
[0:39] and everything else. We've got clear
[0:41] skies again tomorrow. A low about 33.
[0:43] There may be some patches of fog around
[0:44] in the morning, but then sunny and up to
[0:46] 60. And the rain returns Saturday night
[0:48] and into Sunday. So, enjoy the next
[0:50] couple days.
[0:51] >> Okay, take care everybody. Thanks for
[0:52] watching. We'll see you tomorrow night.
[0:53] Good night.
[0:57] Thanks for watching Channel 2 News, the
[1:00] Northwest news leader. Tomorrow morning,
[1:03] join Dan Christopher and Janice Wyel for
[1:05] Channel 2 News this morning.
[1:12] >> February 14th, 1996.
[1:16] >> Our economy is the healthiest it has
[1:18] been in three decades.
[1:20] >> The president says the economy is
[1:22] booming.
[1:27] The stock market is soaring,
[1:32] but the layoffs keep coming and coming.
[1:35] >> I'm being told it's not because you
[1:38] you've done anything wrong. It's just
[1:40] because we don't have enough room for
[1:41] you.
[1:42] >> Tonight, the Secretary of Labor has some
[1:45] tough things to say about those
[1:47] corporate layoffs.
[1:48] >> America is not simply a bunch of
[1:50] businesses. It's a bunch of people. And
[1:52] a chief executive whose aggressive
[1:54] downsizing has earned him the nickname
[1:57] of Chainsaw L replies here. The reason
[2:01] to be in business is to make money for
[2:03] your shareholders.
[2:12] This is ABC News Night Line reporting
[2:16] from Washington. Ted CPP.
[2:19] Even as the Dow Jones Industrial Average
[2:21] on Wall Street notches up one record
[2:24] session after another, suggesting a
[2:26] booming economy, over 1,668,000
[2:31] people have been laid off since 1993.
[2:34] 100,000 of them last month alone. It is
[2:38] even argued that one of the reasons that
[2:40] Wall Street is doing so well is
[2:41] precisely because corporations are
[2:44] downsizing their workforce with a
[2:46] vengeance. All of this is happening, of
[2:48] course, at precisely the same time that
[2:51] Congress and the White House are doing
[2:52] their best to balance the budget, which
[2:54] everyone now agrees involves cutting
[2:56] growth in government spending. If
[2:59] current trends continue, then we can
[3:01] expect to see the biggest businesses
[3:03] laying more people off at the same time
[3:05] that government is less able to provide
[3:08] additional support. To many Americans,
[3:10] the crunch is already here. To others,
[3:13] it's just around the corner. In a
[3:15] moment, we'll bring you a pointed
[3:16] discussion that we recorded earlier this
[3:18] evening with the Secretary of Labor and
[3:21] with one of the foremost practitioners
[3:23] of corporate downsizing. We begin though
[3:25] with Night Line correspondent, Michelle
[3:28] McQueen.
[3:32] >> He is the kind of boss we all dream
[3:34] about.
[3:34] >> Social justice is is part of of the
[3:38] business that we're in. It's not only a
[3:41] devotion to the bottom line.
[3:46] When a fire destroyed his Massachusetts
[3:49] textile mill last December, Aaron
[3:51] Furriststein not only promised to
[3:52] rebuild, but to take care of his workers
[3:55] in the meantime.
[3:56] >> At least for the next 30 days, all our
[4:00] hourly employees, all our employees will
[4:04] be paid their full salaries.
[4:10] >> Best boss I've ever had. You can quote
[4:11] me on that.
[4:12] >> Taking care of his people. What's
[4:13] important? It makes us feel good.
[4:15] >> He's a saint now. Everybody around here
[4:17] loves him.
[4:18] >> It sounds like a scene from the past.
[4:20] Something out of a Frank Capra movie.
[4:23] >> We made a custo
[4:26] look. We're still in business.
[4:27] >> Where businesses were like family
[4:29] offering security and generous benefits
[4:31] in exchange for years of service.
[4:33] >> Greed, for lack of a better word, is
[4:37] good.
[4:38] >> For many workers these days, that image
[4:40] is long gone. Greed is right. Greed
[4:44] works.
[4:46] >> It is fair to say that large
[4:48] corporations are behaving in a different
[4:50] way in 1996 than they did in 1956 or in
[4:54] 1976.
[4:56] In those days, corporations uh engaged
[5:00] in massive layoffs only when the
[5:02] company's fundamental future was at
[5:04] stake. Now, they're laying off lots of
[5:07] workers in order to fatten what already
[5:09] is a fat bottom line.
[5:12] And the list of blue chip companies
[5:14] handing out the pink slips is growing.
[5:17] January 1993, Sears Robuk announced
[5:20] 50,000 jobs would be eliminated.
[5:23] >> Feel very bad. I don't feel as tall as
[5:26] that building downtown.
[5:28] I've been with Sears 27 years.
[5:31] >> July 1993, IBM says it will cut 63,000
[5:36] jobs.
[5:37] >> I know a lot of people that depended on
[5:39] this company, you know. to retire here
[5:41] and settle down here. They probably do
[5:43] feel betrayed.
[5:44] >> And January 1996, AT&T 40,000 jobs are
[5:49] to go.
[5:50] >> It's a very scary thing because I don't
[5:52] know where I'm going to go. How do I
[5:53] support my family? How do I pay our my
[5:56] bills?
[5:57] >> While it may be gling to some, CEOs now
[5:59] know that there is a new reality on Wall
[6:01] Street. Surveys show that announcements
[6:03] of corporate downsizing often bring a
[6:05] surge in stock prices. One survey says
[6:08] the average gain is 8%.
[6:11] >> When a big company announces layoffs,
[6:13] that's seen as a sign that they're
[6:14] getting tough, that they're going to
[6:16] hold down costs, and they're going to
[6:18] make sure that they're going to be able
[6:19] to continue to thrive and survive in
[6:22] this new economy. So, if you own a piece
[6:24] of that company, if you own stock in
[6:26] that company, presumably you're better
[6:28] off.
[6:28] >> I've done eight major turnarounds, and
[6:30] most of America's corporations are like
[6:32] beached whales. No one preaches the
[6:35] lean-in mean gospel better than Albert
[6:37] Dunlap, former chairman of Scott Paper
[6:39] Company. In barely two years, Dunlap
[6:42] took the alien company, eliminated
[6:44] 11,000 jobs, and doubled the stock
[6:46] price. When the company was sold two
[6:49] years later, he walked away with nearly
[6:51] $100 million in salary, stocks, and
[6:54] other perks.
[6:56] The issue of downsizing is so
[6:58] provocative that it has landed onto the
[7:00] political radar screen. Labor Secretary
[7:02] Robert Rich is now criticizing
[7:04] corporations, arguing that they owe
[7:06] their country more than mere profits.
[7:09] >> We've got to give companies an economic
[7:12] reason to do this. One possibility would
[7:16] be to reduce or eliminate the corporate
[7:19] income tax, but only for companies that
[7:21] achieve certain minimum standards.
[7:26] >> And now Republicans are picking up the
[7:28] theme in New Hampshire. Pat Buchanan
[7:30] campaigning as a populist was first and
[7:33] now Bob Dole has picked it up.
[7:35] >> Corporate profits are setting records,
[7:36] but so are corporate layoffs.
[7:38] >> For now, these presidential candidates
[7:40] are mostly interested in winning friends
[7:42] on Main Street, but any interference in
[7:45] corporate decision-m is likely to be a
[7:47] much tougher cell on Wall Street. This
[7:49] is Michelle McQueen for Night Line in
[7:52] Washington.
[7:54] Joining me now from our Washington
[7:55] studio, Secretary of Labor Robert Rich
[7:58] and Albert Dunlap, the former chairman
[8:00] and CEO of the Scott Paper Company. Mr.
[8:02] Dunlap, it may seem a trivial point, but
[8:05] I I gather you are not exactly offended
[8:07] by by your nickname, Chainsaw Al. And of
[8:09] course, they're talking about the number
[8:12] of jobs that you have cut over the
[8:13] years. Why Why is that not an offensive
[8:16] nickname to you?
[8:17] >> Well, it's not offensive because I've
[8:19] gone into companies that have had very
[8:22] poor results. The year before I joined
[8:24] Scott, they lost 277 million and were on
[8:27] credit watch. And I was forced to fire
[8:30] about 35% of the people, but 65% of the
[8:33] people have a more secure future than
[8:36] they've ever had before. And that's what
[8:38] people don't realize. I'm the doctor. I
[8:41] didn't create the problem. When
[8:44] Secretary Rich, someone like Mr. Dunlap,
[8:47] comes in and makes that point. Indeed,
[8:49] he is correct. What is rarely understood
[8:52] is that perhaps if an Al Dunlap didn't
[8:55] come along, the whole company would go
[8:57] under and a 100% of the workers would be
[8:59] out of work.
[9:00] >> Uh Ted, obviously there is uh room for
[9:03] efficiency improvements in American
[9:05] industry. We've seen enormous
[9:06] restructurings. Some of those
[9:07] restructurings were necessary. The real
[9:09] question is, do you have to do it
[9:11] suddenly in a way that causes a lot of
[9:13] people to be unemployed? In a way that
[9:15] causes massive job insecurity, imposes
[9:18] unemployment insurance costs, and
[9:21] generally uh stagnates wages, causes
[9:23] people to to uh worry about their future
[9:26] as much as as now. Companies such as the
[9:29] one you ran before, Aaron Fierstein's
[9:31] company up in Balden Mills, they treat
[9:33] their workers as assets to be developed,
[9:36] not as costs to be cut. And that makes
[9:38] all the difference in terms of how those
[9:40] workers feel about that company and
[9:42] indeed in the long term those workers
[9:44] actually may be more productive.
[9:45] >> Do you think uh Mr. Dunlap that that
[9:48] that kind of benign leadership is
[9:51] actually workable at a huge company
[9:53] >> here? The reason to be in business is to
[9:56] make money for your shareholders. The
[9:58] shareholders own the company. They take
[10:00] all the risk. No company ever gives the
[10:03] shareholder their money back when they
[10:04] go bust. And you have an awesome
[10:06] responsibility to see that they get the
[10:08] proper return for their risk.
[10:11] >> And what if as a consequence of
[10:14] thousands and then tens of thousands and
[10:17] then hundreds of thousands as I
[10:18] mentioned uh about 1.6 million people
[10:22] have been laid off over the past 2 and a
[10:24] half to three years alone. What happens
[10:26] when that has an impact on the economy?
[10:30] >> Who's who's whose responsibility is that
[10:31] and who's supposed to pick up the
[10:32] pieces? The free enterprise system is
[10:35] very efficient when it's allowed to
[10:37] perform. America was becoming
[10:39] nonproductive in global economies.
[10:41] American companies were failing because
[10:44] people have come in and made the tough
[10:45] decisions. American companies are now
[10:48] beingcoming successful. They're becoming
[10:50] global giants. And over time, they will
[10:53] create considerably more employment. And
[10:56] yes, some people have to lose their job.
[10:58] But as I said before, that's a lot
[11:00] better than everyone losing their job.
[11:02] Secretary Rush, I know you're going to
[11:03] want to come back to that and we'll give
[11:05] you a chance to do that as soon as we
[11:06] take this short break. Back in a moment.
[11:12] >> This is ABC News Night Line brought to
[11:15] you by the men and women of General
[11:17] Motors.
[11:23] The men and women of General Motors made
[11:25] a commitment to always put our customers
[11:28] first.
[11:30] It's a commitment we renew with every
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[11:53] Sears has great deals on tires for just
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[12:02] So roll in before February 24th. Sears
[12:05] Auto Center.
[12:08] >> Hormel chili. Sure. That's my favorite.
[12:10] We eat a lot of turkey chili, too. Low
[12:13] fat sour cream. Low fat cheese. Or sour
[12:16] cream.
[12:16] >> Cheese. Sour cheese.
[12:18] >> Nothing beats a bowl of Hormeale chili.
[12:20] No matter which horale chili it is.
[12:24] >> Tomorrow. Space. The cheaper frontier.
[12:27] Now smaller technology must conquer the
[12:30] universe. But would it all fly, boy,
[12:32] it'll dazzle you. Watch and you'll
[12:34] understand on ABC's World News Tonight
[12:36] with Peter Jennings.
[12:41] >> When I agreed to this motherhood thing,
[12:43] nobody told me I'd be doing everything
[12:44] in triplet. Around here, nothing's quick
[12:47] or easy except for my US West Direct
[12:50] yellow pages. It's got an index in the
[12:51] back to find the right headings. And
[12:53] when I need something right away, like
[12:55] an ear doctor, it's got these specialty
[12:58] guides. I use my yellow pages all the
[13:00] time now. It's quick. It's easy.
[13:02] >> Daddy's home.
[13:04] >> And it's there when you need it.
[13:07] >> It's the one that gets used. US West
[13:09] Direct.
[13:11] >> Imperial Tombs of China. Fascinating
[13:13] treasures from China's most powerful
[13:15] ancient rulers. The special exhibit
[13:17] opens soon. Buy your tickets now.
[13:21] We've set up a flood relief fund at Post
[13:23] Office Box 297207
[13:26] in Portland. Every penny will go to the
[13:29] people who need it most.
[13:30] >> If you think a bad tie can ruin a good
[13:33] suit, try a bad dry cleaning. That's why
[13:36] we offer free pressing at the Men's
[13:38] Warehouse. I guarantee it.
[13:44] >> And we're back with Labor Secretary
[13:45] Robert Rush and Albert Dunlap, the
[13:47] former head of the Scott Paper Company.
[13:49] Just before the break, Secretary Rush,
[13:51] Mr. Dunlight was making the point that
[13:53] American industry, American businesses
[13:55] are simply getting more competitive in a
[13:56] global market. And the implication is
[14:00] what's good for American business in the
[14:01] long run is going to be good for the
[14:03] American people.
[14:04] >> Ted, the problem we are having right now
[14:06] as an economy is not so much jobs, it's
[14:08] wages. As you pointed out before, the
[14:11] stock market is doing terrifically well,
[14:12] a 33% increase over the last year in
[14:15] stock values in the Dow Jones Industrial
[14:17] Average. But wages are stuck. And one of
[14:19] the reasons wages are stuck is people
[14:21] are scared to ask for a raise. They
[14:23] don't have any bargaining leverage. Many
[14:24] people are getting laid off. There is
[14:25] massive insecurity out there. I can tell
[14:27] you I go out as labor secretary and talk
[14:29] to Americans, blue collar and white
[14:31] collar and pink collar. And I hear all
[14:33] the time people tell me the same story.
[14:35] I worked for this company, they say, for
[14:37] 20 years or 30 years, and now I'm
[14:39] treated like a disposable piece of
[14:41] machinery. That's not fair, they say.
[14:44] and they say, "I'm not going to be loyal
[14:46] to the company next time, my next
[14:48] company." There are social consequences
[14:50] to this. It's not just a matter of
[14:53] maximizing shareholder returns. Mr.
[14:55] Dunlap, there are variations of
[14:58] responsibility. And I think as Secretary
[15:00] Rush points out, uh, to the degree that
[15:03] workers no longer feel the kind of
[15:05] corporate loyalty that maybe they felt
[15:07] 20 or 30 years ago, that too is going to
[15:09] have consequences down the line.
[15:11] Certainly the world has changed over the
[15:13] last 20 years, but business is not a
[15:16] social experiment. You exist in business
[15:20] to be competitive, to come out with the
[15:22] best products, the best facilities, and
[15:24] to create a future for your people. And
[15:27] the companies that do well must have
[15:29] good products, must have good employee
[15:31] relations because it all figures into
[15:33] the future of the company. And you know,
[15:36] socialism has failed the world over. But
[15:38] yet we in America now want to
[15:40] reinstitute socialism into our e
[15:43] economic situation. And I think that's
[15:45] dead wrong.
[15:45] >> Is that really what we're talking about,
[15:47] Secretary Rush? Are you proposing some
[15:49] form of socialism here? Because I I must
[15:52] say I have read uh that even your your
[15:55] own administration is a little bit
[15:57] queasy about some of the things that
[15:58] you've been saying publicly over the
[16:00] last
[16:00] >> Ted. I don't think anybody's talking
[16:01] about socialism here. What we're talking
[16:03] about is corporate citizenship,
[16:05] corporate responsibility. If the public
[16:07] sector can do less because we have to
[16:09] obviously balance the budget, then the
[16:11] private sector is going to have to do
[16:12] more. Americans are caught in this huge
[16:15] change affecting the economy. Many
[16:17] Americans are trapped in the old
[16:19] economy. They don't have the skills they
[16:20] need to get ahead. The question is, what
[16:22] are the responsibilities in this new
[16:24] economy of the private corporation? Is
[16:26] it only to maximize shareholder returns
[16:29] or is there also a responsibility to
[16:31] employees and to communities? Let me
[16:33] rephrase what you're saying a little bit
[16:34] because if you're just leaving it as a
[16:36] sort of vague responsibility, then I can
[16:38] tell you exactly what's going to happen.
[16:40] Corporations are going to continue
[16:41] operating on the basis of what produces
[16:43] maximum profit. Unless there is some
[16:46] kind of a big stick hanging out there
[16:48] somewhere, unless the government is
[16:49] saying either we're going to give you
[16:52] some sort of benefit if you pick up the
[16:54] slack here or we're going to punish you
[16:56] in some way if you don't. Why should
[16:57] business do that?
[16:58] >> Tab, they're really two separate related
[17:00] issues. One, is it good for even the
[17:02] shareholders over the long term to have
[17:04] a lot of massive layoffs, a lot of
[17:06] insecurity, and a lot of employees who
[17:08] are survivors but who don't feel very
[17:10] much loyalty to the company? Are they
[17:11] going to go the extra mile? That's issue
[17:13] number one. Issue number two is what
[17:15] about society in general? Are there ways
[17:18] in which we can provide incentives to
[17:19] companies? If that's the way companies
[17:21] behave, if that's the way the market is
[17:22] organized to maximize shareholder
[17:24] returns, can we provide incentives so
[17:26] that companies not only maximize
[17:28] shareholder returns, but also provide
[17:31] some sort of economic security, train
[17:33] their workers, upgrade workers skills,
[17:35] if they have to downsize, at least get
[17:37] workers new jobs paying approximately
[17:39] the same as the old.
[17:40] >> Mr. Dunlap, what's your answer to that?
[17:42] Can can business will business do that
[17:44] without some kind of a government
[17:45] incentive or threat? here. In the first
[17:47] place, I think American business is the
[17:50] envy of the world. I traveled 3.1 times
[17:53] around the globe last year. And most
[17:55] countries wish they had the free
[17:57] enterprise system we have. And where I
[18:00] visited countries where they have
[18:01] socialism, they've failed miserably. And
[18:04] I see this as socialism.
[18:05] >> I'm not asking you to pick between
[18:06] socialism and capitalism or socialism
[18:08] and free enterprise. What I'm asking you
[18:10] is will business in this country provide
[18:14] the kind of retraining, support,
[18:16] re-education that Secretary Rush is
[18:18] talking about absent some kind of threat
[18:20] by the government or some kind of
[18:21] incentive from the government.
[18:23] >> Number one, that is not the role of
[18:25] business. Business role is to provide as
[18:28] secure a future for its employees as it
[18:31] can. And within doing that, some people
[18:34] lose their job. That has happened since
[18:36] the beginning of time. And because
[18:38] people didn't take their
[18:39] responsibilities to run efficient
[18:41] corporations seriously, we're in the
[18:44] situation we are now. And the last
[18:46] person that should arbitrate it is the
[18:48] government, the largest business in
[18:50] America with the worst balance sheet,
[18:52] the poorest management, services people
[18:54] don't want, and a bloated cost
[18:56] structure.
[18:57] >> You've left a couple of questions
[18:58] hanging in the air because if government
[18:59] isn't going to do it and business isn't
[19:01] going to do it, I'm going to have to ask
[19:02] you who is going to do it. But we'll do
[19:04] that when we come back in just a moment.
[19:10] Right or wrong, whatever the truth is,
[19:13] we're standing by you.
[19:14] >> Guilty or innocent, get a full DNA
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[19:17] >> Jacob's not a killer.
[19:18] >> He will always be their only son. It
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[19:33] >> Before and after. Rated PG-13. Starts
[19:36] Friday, February 23rd.
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[20:13] when life begins. Plus, the fashions of
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[20:18] >> That's next time
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[20:59] >> There was blood in the car. It's been
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[21:02] >> What do you mean taken care of?
[21:03] >> Beyond the truth.
[21:05] >> Is there something that you're not
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[21:06] >> How far will a parent go to protect the
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[21:11] >> What if you've destroyed evidence that
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[21:13] >> Merryill Street. Liam Niss.
[21:15] >> Jacob's not a killer.
[21:16] >> Are you prepared to bet his freedom on
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[21:54] Back once again with Al Dunlap and
[21:56] Secretary of Labor Robert Rich. Mr.
[21:59] Secretary, we we left on a note with
[22:01] which I suspect uh a great many
[22:03] Americans agree, and that is the
[22:04] government is a lousy arbiter of this
[22:06] kind of thing. The government doesn't do
[22:07] a very good job at it. Uh but I'm also
[22:10] left with the impression that it's going
[22:11] to be someone else. Big business isn't
[22:14] going to do it on its own, says Mr.
[22:15] Dunlap. And government shouldn't do it.
[22:18] Well, then we are between a rock and a
[22:20] hard place, Ted. Because if there is not
[22:22] going to be any government incentive, if
[22:23] government can't do it, won't do it, and
[22:25] if big business is not going to do it in
[22:27] terms of retraining people, upgrading
[22:28] their skills, helping people get new
[22:30] jobs when they're laid off, then we have
[22:32] a lot of individuals as we have right
[22:34] now who are caught between the old
[22:36] economy, the new economy. They are not
[22:37] getting a raise. Most people are not
[22:39] getting a raise. The stock market may be
[22:40] doing quite well, but the economy is not
[22:43] necessarily measured in the pocketbooks
[22:46] of most people. We have got to think of
[22:48] the society as a whole. America is not
[22:51] simply a bunch of businesses. It's a
[22:53] bunch of people. And those people sit
[22:54] around their kitchen tables and they
[22:56] worry about how they're going to pay pay
[22:58] the bills, how they're going to afford
[22:59] college for their kids. If businesses
[23:01] are not going to step up to the plate
[23:03] and at least treat their employees as
[23:05] assets to be developed, and again,
[23:07] nobody is arguing that they have to keep
[23:08] all their employees all the all the
[23:10] time. But if those businesses are highly
[23:12] profitable, Ted, they owe it to their
[23:14] employees to at least upgrade the skills
[23:16] and if they're downsizing, get those
[23:18] employees new jobs.
[23:19] >> Ultimately, Mr. Dunlap, those people who
[23:22] are downsized, and that is such a
[23:24] bloodless word, those people who are
[23:26] canned, who are fired, who are out on
[23:28] the street, someone's going to have to
[23:30] take care of them. And inevitably, if
[23:32] business isn't going to do it, if
[23:34] business says it can't accommodate them,
[23:36] then the taxpayer is going to have to do
[23:37] it by taking care of them under some
[23:39] sort of social program. Perhaps what we
[23:41] should do, obviously, our welfare
[23:43] programs have been a miserable failure.
[23:46] Perhaps we need to go back to the Works
[23:48] Projects Administration type programs.
[23:50] Our infrastructure in America is
[23:52] decaying. Let's get people off welfare.
[23:55] Let's take people that are unemployed
[23:57] and let's pay them to work. Let's teach
[23:59] them a skill and let's let them repair
[24:01] the infrastructure of America.
[24:04] >> Well, you're talking to the right man
[24:05] here. Here's the Secretary of Labor.
[24:06] What do you think? A WPA along the along
[24:09] the lines of what President Roosevelt
[24:10] had in the 30s?
[24:11] >> Well, Ted, it's interesting coming from
[24:13] a business leader who just said that he
[24:15] doesn't want government meddling and he
[24:17] doesn't believe in big government to
[24:18] come back to a 1930s program that was
[24:20] indeed big government hiring a lot of
[24:23] people, WPA, and having them build
[24:25] infrastructure. If business is willing
[24:27] to support that kind of program and we
[24:29] can get through Congress some sort of
[24:30] jobs program, we maybe ought to consider
[24:32] it. But at least let's face the facts,
[24:35] let's face the music. A lot of Americans
[24:37] now are insecure and they're struggling.
[24:39] If business does not raise people's
[24:42] wages, train people, help people across
[24:44] this great divide. Ted, there is going
[24:46] to be a backlash. You can already see it
[24:48] growing. People are going to support
[24:50] protectionism. They're going to support
[24:51] controls on capital markets. They're
[24:53] going to support things which actually
[24:55] inhibit economic growth but may provide
[24:57] some job security.
[24:58] >> I guess Mr. Donald, you're probably not
[25:00] surprised to hear that from a Democratic
[25:02] Secretary of Labor. But there's a very
[25:03] similar theme coming from up in New
[25:05] Hampshire these days from one fellow by
[25:07] the name of Buchanan and another fellow
[25:09] by the name of Dole, the two leaders at
[25:10] the moment of the Republican party. I
[25:12] mean leaders in terms of of of the the
[25:15] presidential campaign. Uh can you see
[25:18] this translating into a major campaign
[25:20] issue? And if so, what are you going to
[25:22] do about it? Sure. Two points. Number
[25:24] one, when we talked about big
[25:25] government, I wasn't talking about
[25:26] creating another big government program.
[25:28] I was talking about replacing welfare as
[25:31] we know it with a more productive
[25:33] program. To go more specifically to your
[25:35] point, obviously we're in the silly
[25:37] season. It's the political presidential
[25:40] election year and people are changing
[25:42] their positions daily and they need they
[25:45] need an adversary and big business is
[25:47] the adversary for a moment but they're
[25:50] losing sight of who owns corporate
[25:51] America. Corporate America is owned by
[25:53] the moms and pops of America by the
[25:56] pension programs by the 401k. Their life
[25:59] savings rest in the success of corporate
[26:02] America. And people have always lost
[26:04] jobs and it's unfortunate. I happen to
[26:06] come from a workingclass family.
[26:09] >> Let me just and and we're just about
[26:10] down to our last minute or so.
[26:12] Interesting point that Mr. Dunlap made
[26:14] there, Secretary Rush, and that is if
[26:17] the market were suddenly to take a dive.
[26:20] Indeed, some of the pension funds, labor
[26:23] union pension funds among them would
[26:26] take the biggest hit.
[26:27] >> Ted, the top 10% of income earners in
[26:29] this country own 90% of the stocks in
[26:32] this country, 90% of the value of the
[26:34] stock market. So although obviously
[26:36] pension funds uh are dependent on a
[26:39] vibrant and buoyant stock market, let's
[26:41] not fool ourselves into who owns
[26:42] America. This is not uh your mom and pop
[26:45] ownership. Uh this is a very small group
[26:48] of of people. And and and again, Ted,
[26:51] it's not a matter of bashing the rich.
[26:52] It's not a matter of ven of of
[26:54] portraying corporations as evil or
[26:56] venal. What we need to do is face the
[26:58] practical reality that we've got to help
[27:00] so many people get across this great
[27:02] chasm from the old economy to the new
[27:04] economy and we are not as a society
[27:06] doing it now.
[27:07] >> Mr. Dunlap, your body language says you
[27:09] got one more thing to say. You got 20
[27:10] seconds in which to say. I
[27:11] >> I sure do. That unfortunately was
[27:13] rubbish. The moms and pops of America
[27:16] own corporate America, not a bunch of
[27:18] rich people.
[27:19] >> Mr. Dunlap, Mr. Rush, thank you both
[27:21] very much indeed. I'll be back in a
[27:23] moment.
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[28:58] >> We've all been through a lot during this
[28:59] last week. If the floods didn't get you,
[29:01] chances are the slides did. I'm Jeff
[29:03] Gianola. Now, it's time to take a look
[29:05] back at the astounding stories that
[29:07] happened right before our eyes. Thursday
[29:09] night at 9, watch a Channel 2 News
[29:11] special, The Rivers Rage. Meet the
[29:13] heroes of the flood and the victims
[29:15] struggling to put their lives back
[29:16] together. and see the powerful pictures
[29:18] that tell their story so well. Watch The
[29:21] Rivers Rage. Thursday night at 9 on
[29:23] KETU. The spirit of the Northwest.
[29:27] >> By truck, by boat, by helicopter.
[29:30] Whatever it takes, Channel 2 News brings
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