Nightline (ABC) - 1992-03-17 (The '92 Vote)
Channel: malgent
Transcript
Language: English (YouTube automatic captions)
[0:06] voters and most important special
[0:08] interest political action committee
[0:09] contributions with millions of dollars.
[0:12] So, why not just pass campaign finance
[0:13] laws? First Amendment rights make it
[0:15] impossible to write a campaign finance
[0:17] law that will work. Our political system
[0:19] at both state and federal level is
[0:20] currently in gridlock. We need people in
[0:22] office who are more concerned with
[0:23] solving problems and less concerned with
[0:25] getting reelected by pleasing selfish
[0:26] special interests. We What we need are
[0:28] citizen legislators, not professional
[0:30] politicians. That is why we are working
[0:32] for limits on politicians, circulating
[0:33] petitions statewide. Limits. Let
[0:36] incumbents mosey into the sunset.
[0:38] >> The preceding was a rebuttal to a recent
[0:40] Channel 2 editorial.
[0:45] >> Thank you.
[0:45] >> It was a day for a political reality
[0:48] check
[0:49] when the candidates got a pretty good
[0:51] idea of who's on first.
[0:53] >> On to New York, on to victory in
[0:55] November, on to a new future for the
[0:58] American people. Thank you very much.
[1:00] >> And who's not.
[1:01] >> Let me begin by congratulating Bill
[1:03] Clinton on his two victories tonight.
[1:06] Give him credit,
[1:06] [cheering and screaming] so
[1:08] >> Today in the Michigan and Illinois
[1:10] primaries, the presidential field was
[1:12] further defined.
[1:14] Tonight we'll talk live with the three
[1:16] Democratic candidates.
[1:18] >> [music]
[1:25] >> This is ABC News Nightline.
[1:27] Reporting from Washington,
[1:29] and Koppel.
[1:32] >> This may well be the night that the
[1:33] Clinton bandwagon finally reaches the
[1:36] crest of a long bumpy mountain road and
[1:38] starts coasting downhill toward the
[1:40] Democratic nomination. Clinton won, and
[1:43] he won big tonight, drawing support
[1:46] across the board in Illinois among
[1:48] blacks and whites, upper and lower
[1:50] income voters, out in the country and in
[1:53] the heart of the big cities.
[1:55] Paul Tsongas came in a poor second,
[1:57] followed closely by Jerry Brown. In
[2:00] Michigan, it was almost the same. Not
[2:02] quite as big a victory margin for
[2:04] Governor Clinton, but convincing
[2:06] nevertheless. The only surprise was
[2:08] Jerry Brown's relatively strong showing,
[2:11] and the fact that Paul Tsongas came in
[2:13] third. We'll be talking with all three
[2:15] of the candidates a little later in the
[2:17] broadcast, but they are far from being
[2:20] the only story tonight. Two incumbent
[2:23] congressmen and one incumbent senator
[2:25] from Illinois are in big trouble this
[2:27] evening. Their colleagues will be
[2:29] watching with interest and some alarm.
[2:32] In at least one of those three cases,
[2:33] the dreaded House Banking Scandal may
[2:36] have played a role. But if Republicans
[2:38] thought they could ride the Chick
[2:39] Keating story all the way to victory in
[2:41] November, there was an embarrassing
[2:43] reminder today that several of their
[2:45] own, including the three members of the
[2:47] president's cabinet, were also caught up
[2:50] in the mess. Other than that, it was a
[2:52] good day for the president. He clobbered
[2:55] Pat Buchanan in both Illinois and
[2:57] Michigan. And for the first time in
[2:59] quite a few weeks of primaries, you
[3:01] could almost hear the sighs of relief
[3:03] coming out of the White House.
[3:05] Jeff Greenfield, Nightline's own great
[3:07] diviner of political chicken entrails,
[3:09] joins us again this evening. Jeff, has
[3:12] the president finally succeeded in
[3:13] driving Pat Buchanan back to CNN?
[3:16] >> I I don't know if he's succeeded in
[3:17] driving him to CNN, but I think the
[3:19] Maalox concession is substantially less
[3:21] valuable at the White House than it's
[3:22] been for the last month. They're
[3:24] actually probably starting to exhale
[3:25] because now it's clear that the Buchanan
[3:27] insurgency as an effective challenge,
[3:30] not to the nomination, but on even on
[3:31] the merits, has really been muted. I
[3:33] mean, Buchanan can go to California, but
[3:35] it's much more symbolic. And what that
[3:37] means is that for the next 6 months, uh
[3:40] the Republicans, the White House can
[3:41] think about November instead of what do
[3:43] they do about Pat Buchanan's latest uh
[3:46] charge. On the Democratic side, you
[3:48] know, we've been tap dancing for the
[3:49] better part of a month saying, "Well,
[3:50] we'll see and then later and maybe, and
[3:52] if tomorrow. Well, now in what Tsongas
[3:55] called neutral territory in two key
[3:57] industrial states that are outside
[3:59] everybody's turf, Brown, Tsongas, and
[4:01] Clinton, Clinton clearly won landslide
[4:04] victories. And what you have to say
[4:05] about that is not that it's over because
[4:07] we've learned, but that something
[4:09] radically has to happen to derail
[4:11] Clinton from his path to the nomination.
[4:13] >> And and how do you assess that he put
[4:15] this victory package together? I'm
[4:17] speaking now obviously about Governor
[4:18] Clinton.
[4:19] >> Well, if you if you look at the exit
[4:20] polls, which I think are very valuable
[4:22] in knowing where votes came from, you
[4:23] can see that Clinton has a classic
[4:25] Democratic coalition working for him.
[4:27] Look at Illinois. Among black voters,
[4:29] Clinton just did terrific. He got 72% of
[4:31] the vote. Among the less educated, high
[4:34] school graduates, 62% of the vote. Among
[4:36] the poor, Clinton again 62% of the vote.
[4:39] And among middle-income uh people in
[4:41] Illinois, Democrats 60%. That's your
[4:44] classic Democratic coalition. Look at
[4:46] Bill Clinton in Michigan. Uh same kind
[4:48] of story. In the black vote in Michigan,
[4:51] uh which should supposedly been going
[4:52] for Harkin early cuz of Detroit Mayor
[4:54] Young, 73% of the vote. Among
[4:57] middle-income Democrats in Michigan,
[4:58] Clinton got 57% of the vote. Again, high
[5:01] school graduates, 57%. And among
[5:03] Democrats who call themselves moderate,
[5:05] who form almost 47% of the turnout
[5:07] today, Clinton got better than 50% in a
[5:10] three-way race. Now, if you look at
[5:11] Jerry Brown, why did he finish second in
[5:13] Michigan? Jerry Brown hurt Paul Tsongas
[5:17] as much if not more than he hurt Bill
[5:19] Clinton who he attacked so uh toughly in
[5:21] that debate Sunday night. Look at the
[5:23] liberal vote in Michigan. Jerry Brown,
[5:25] 36%. Among people who describe
[5:27] themselves as independents, 36%. And
[5:30] among what we talked about last night on
[5:32] Nightline, people who call themselves
[5:33] angry, more than 40% of Michigan voters
[5:35] did, again Jerry Brown picked up 36%.
[5:39] That's got to be encouraging to Jerry
[5:40] Brown, but you can't ignore the fact
[5:42] that Bill Clinton did score two
[5:44] landslide victories in these two key
[5:46] states. And uh
[5:48] there's not much better news you can get
[5:49] from that in a primary night.
[5:50] >> Jeff, very quickly before we take a
[5:52] break on on Paul Tsongas, uh does he
[5:55] have any possible hope now to do
[5:57] anything other than hang on by his
[5:58] fingernails
[6:00] uh in the chance that
[6:02] other Democrats are eager to see anybody
[6:05] but Clinton, and if he can stay alive,
[6:07] and if Clinton wounds himself, he may be
[6:09] the beneficiary.
[6:09] >> Well, I think what he does is he gets
[6:11] off the negative sniping that I think
[6:12] hurt him. He gets back to his message,
[6:14] and he hopes that something happens that
[6:16] keeps him a viable candidate. But, that
[6:17] is what his hope is right now, to be
[6:19] candid about it.
[6:19] >> All right, we have to take a break.
[6:21] We'll be joined later in the program, as
[6:22] I mentioned earlier, by the three
[6:24] Democratic presidential candidates. But,
[6:26] first, when we come back, we'll be
[6:27] rejoined by Jeff Greenfield and by ABC
[6:30] News congressional correspondent Cokie
[6:32] Roberts, who can shed some light on the
[6:34] anti-incumbency backlash.
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[9:00] >> The Illinois primary has sent a strong
[9:03] anti-incumbent message to several
[9:05] incumbent congressmen and a strong
[9:07] challenge to two-term Democratic Senator
[9:10] Alan Dixon, who has never lost an
[9:12] election, but was running neck and neck
[9:14] with Carol Moseley Braun, the Cook
[9:16] County Recorder of Deeds. Joining us now
[9:19] to help make sense of the voter
[9:20] sentiment are political analyst and
[9:22] Nightline correspondent Jeff Greenfield,
[9:24] who is in our New York studios, and
[9:26] Cokie Roberts, ABC News Congressional
[9:28] Correspondent in our Washington Bureau.
[9:30] Jeff, tell us a little bit about those
[9:31] Congressional races and the Senate race.
[9:33] >> Well, very briefly, as you say, Alan
[9:35] Dixon who a two-term Democratic Senator
[9:37] from Illinois, has won every election
[9:39] he's entered since 1949 when he got
[9:41] elected to register of deeds. Uh he had
[9:43] two primary opponents uh who were
[9:45] attacked by the fact that among other
[9:46] things he votes conservative for a
[9:48] Democrat, and he voted for Clarence
[9:49] Thomas's confirmation. He was supposed
[9:51] to win the primary fairly easily
[9:53] according to polls. He is
[9:55] in the fight of his life with with Carol
[9:56] Moseley Braun, an under-financed black
[9:58] woman, a local recorder of deeds. Gus
[10:01] Savage, uh Congressman from Illinois
[10:03] who's been one of the most controversial
[10:04] members of the House rebuked by the
[10:06] Ethics Committee,
[10:07] um
[10:08] to be blunt, has played the race card
[10:09] for many years. He will not give any
[10:11] interviews to the white media. Has been
[10:12] defeated and defeated soundly by his
[10:15] opponent Mel Reynolds. That was a race
[10:17] where redistricting helped because he
[10:18] was put more suburban and white voters
[10:21] were put in that district. And Charles
[10:22] Hayes, who uh
[10:24] is been caught up in this check-bouncing
[10:25] scandal. He bounced more than 700
[10:27] checks, uh is in a very tight race with
[10:29] former Black Panther Bobby Rush. So,
[10:32] you're quite right, Ted. This is not
[10:34] necessarily a great time to be a a
[10:36] checkered incumbent tonight.
[10:37] >> And yet, Cokie, as I listen to Jeff
[10:39] explaining what's happening in Illinois
[10:41] tonight, it doesn't look as though you
[10:42] can point to one single theme as being
[10:44] responsible for the trouble that these
[10:46] incumbents are in.
[10:47] >> That's right, but it is definitely not a
[10:49] time to be an incumbent. One of the
[10:51] things in 1990 when we were talking
[10:54] about the strong anti-incumbency mood,
[10:56] and then most incumbents
[10:58] incumbents won again, 96% of them. The
[11:01] that we didn't pay enough attention to
[11:03] then was that the margins of the people
[11:06] who did win were very, very narrow. So,
[11:08] they won, but that but it was not a
[11:10] resounding go back to Washington, folks.
[11:13] It was also the the anti-incumbent mood
[11:15] built after a lot of filing deadlines
[11:17] for candidates to get into the races had
[11:19] passed. Since then, it's never really
[11:21] abated. Uh people have not liked
[11:24] Washington all through this Congress.
[11:26] There was a brief period during the
[11:28] Persian Gulf War when Congress, the
[11:30] President, the military, even the press
[11:32] looked pretty good to people. But uh
[11:34] after that, the Congress started going
[11:35] down, down, down. There's a sense that
[11:37] they're not doing anything, that all of
[11:39] these scandals show them to be people
[11:42] who are just taking care of themselves
[11:45] and not taking care of the voters. So
[11:47] that if any kind of strong challenger
[11:49] comes in and says, "You're right,
[11:52] voters. Washington is out of touch and
[11:54] this particular incumbent is out of
[11:56] touch on X issue or Y issue or has done
[11:59] this bad thing or that bad thing." It is
[12:02] a going to be a very, very tough year
[12:03] for these incumbents.
[12:05] >> Talk to me for a moment if you would
[12:06] about [clears throat] the three cabinet
[12:08] members
[12:09] who today had to concede somewhat
[12:10] embarrassedly that they too, when they
[12:13] were in Congress, got involved in this
[12:16] House banking scandal. Is this going to
[12:19] take the issue away effectively from the
[12:21] Republicans who until very recently
[12:23] looked as though they were going to beat
[12:24] the Democrats over the head with it?
[12:26] >> Well, a couple of Republicans in
[12:27] particular were trying to do that and
[12:29] others were pulling back because they
[12:31] knew that there'd be plenty of
[12:33] Republican names on that list. And we've
[12:35] got 355
[12:36] current and former Congress people.
[12:39] There's bound to be some Republicans in
[12:40] those numbers. But clearly, if you have
[12:43] members of the president's cabinet
[12:45] saying, "Yes, me too." And in this case,
[12:47] it's the agriculture secretary, the
[12:48] labor secretary, and the defense
[12:50] secretary, each saying that they know
[12:52] now by going through their records that
[12:54] they had overdrafts. That that does make
[12:57] it much, much tougher for the
[12:58] Republicans to get home and say that it
[13:01] was Congress that was run by Democrats
[13:03] that made it corrupt. It plays much
[13:05] better into the hands of the people who
[13:07] are saying, "Look, the bank was a mess.
[13:09] We didn't know what was going on. No one
[13:11] told us that we were bouncing checks and
[13:14] we didn't mean to do it."
[13:15] >> Cokie Roberts, Jeff Greenfield, thank
[13:17] you both very much. When we return,
[13:18] we'll be joined by Governor Bill
[13:20] Clinton, the winner in both the Illinois
[13:22] and Michigan primaries, and by the
[13:24] runners-up, Paul Tsongas and Jerry
[13:26] Brown.
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[16:16] >> Paul Simon was second in Illinois. He
[16:19] joins us from Hartford, Connecticut.
[16:21] Jerry Brown who was second in Michigan
[16:23] joins us from Madison, Wisconsin. But
[16:25] we'll turn first to Bill Clinton who
[16:27] took Michigan and Illinois and with them
[16:30] two large steps toward the Democratic
[16:31] nomination. He joins us now from
[16:33] Chicago. They you know they magic
[16:36] experts governor are saying it's now
[16:38] yours to lose. You see it the same way?
[16:40] >> Well
[16:41] I think the burden is still on me to
[16:43] keep going, going to Connecticut, going
[16:45] to New York, going to Wisconsin, going
[16:46] to these states, listening to the people
[16:48] and offering a real fundamental change
[16:51] from the direction both parties have
[16:52] taken in Washington.
[16:54] I think what happened here in Illinois
[16:55] and Michigan people knew I'd lived in a
[16:57] state where we'd had to create
[16:58] manufacturing jobs with no help from
[17:00] Washington and where I had developed a
[17:02] message of fundamental change and I
[17:04] think that if we can keep that out there
[17:06] we've got a good chance to win but this
[17:08] race is not over Ted. You know how the
[17:09] rules work and anybody that gets 15% in
[17:12] any congressional district gets a
[17:13] delegate. So I've got to work hard and
[17:16] keep working for a
[17:17] good while longer.
[17:18] >> Governor, the the super [clears throat]
[17:20] delegates, those folks like the
[17:22] congressman who who get to go to the
[17:24] convention,
[17:25] a chunk of them through their support to
[17:27] you early on, they were mostly from your
[17:29] region of the country. The others have
[17:31] been holding back. Do you have any
[17:33] indication now that
[17:35] this finally puts you over the top in
[17:36] their minds that you're going to start
[17:38] getting their support?
[17:39] >> Well, I think some of them will come.
[17:41] You know, tonight uh Senator Joe
[17:42] Lieberman introduced me here in Chicago.
[17:45] And he's been leading my efforts in
[17:47] Connecticut, the next battleground
[17:48] state. He's a very change-oriented
[17:50] person. He ran for the Senate because he
[17:52] didn't like the direction of economic
[17:53] policy of either party. And I I think
[17:56] those kinds of people, wherever they
[17:58] live, will tend to start coming our way
[18:00] now. But but I really believe that I
[18:02] just have to keep working on the change
[18:04] message and the congressmen and women
[18:07] who relate to that will come along. And
[18:09] and I think the other governors will,
[18:10] too. I've been very gratified with the
[18:11] support we've received there.
[18:13] >> Let me be a little more pointed on that
[18:14] question. The the the reason I gather
[18:17] that some of these old pros have been
[18:19] holding back is that there was a sense
[18:22] that perhaps somebody better than Bill
[18:24] Clinton would come along.
[18:26] There there also comes a point,
[18:27] obviously, in the process where you're
[18:29] so clearly a winner that folks are going
[18:31] to start scrambling to get on the
[18:32] bandwagon before it leaves. At which
[18:35] point are you now?
[18:36] >> Well, I hope we're moving toward the
[18:38] latter point. I think that, you know, I
[18:40] I've never seen one of these nominating
[18:42] processes
[18:43] where a buyer's remorse has set in. You
[18:45] know, the candidates
[18:46] begin to differentiate themselves from
[18:48] one another and become a little critical
[18:50] and and uh
[18:52] the the wear and tear of the campaign
[18:53] begins to show and people say, "Well,
[18:55] maybe we can get somebody better." I
[18:57] think you've had five people in this
[18:58] race who've discussed aggressively and
[19:01] with some considerable specificity the
[19:03] kinds of things I think ought to be done
[19:04] with this country. And I think it's been
[19:06] a pretty high-quality race. So, I don't
[19:08] expect anyone else to get in, but I'm
[19:10] perfectly prepared to keep fighting it,
[19:12] and I hope that the political
[19:13] professionals will eventually come to
[19:15] me. I I didn't get into this race to be
[19:17] the Beltway favorite, and I've been
[19:19] frankly surprised and happily surprised
[19:21] to see so many change-oriented members
[19:23] of the United States Congress come to
[19:25] this campaign as quickly as they did.
[19:27] >> Uh Governor, I don't know if you've had
[19:29] a chance to look around at what else is
[19:31] going on there in Illinois today, but
[19:32] it's a fascinating night. Uh
[19:34] Senator Dixon's in trouble. You've got
[19:36] several incumbent congressmen uh who are
[19:39] either in trouble or are already out. Do
[19:41] you have any interpretation as to what's
[19:42] going on? Is there really an
[19:44] anti-incumbency movement?
[19:46] >> I think there's an anti-incumbency
[19:48] movement, but I I would say it in a
[19:49] different way. I think it's a pro-change
[19:51] movement. I think people really do
[19:52] believe
[19:53] that both parties let them down in
[19:55] Washington in the '80s. I think what
[19:57] they want to do is to close the book on
[19:59] the '80s and come up with a new economic
[20:01] approach in the '90s that brings our
[20:03] people together again, that challenges
[20:04] all our people to change, and gives the
[20:06] real prospect of competing in the world.
[20:08] You look at the the congressional report
[20:10] that came out last week documenting
[20:12] clearly that way over half the American
[20:14] people actually went downhill in the
[20:16] last 12 years. And they know that, so
[20:19] they just want a change. And what this
[20:21] uh this race for president's boiling
[20:23] down to is
[20:24] which change do you want? What kind of
[20:27] change? Who's got the best ideas? Which
[20:29] way should we go? If they keep that
[20:31] frame of mind, uh we're going to be able
[20:32] to replace the president in November
[20:34] because the people will vote for change,
[20:36] and they will not let themselves be
[20:37] diverted or divided again.
[20:39] >> Governor Clinton, I know you want to
[20:40] take your daughter to school tomorrow
[20:41] morning. You're going to get back to our
[20:42] concerns. Thank you very much. Gracious
[20:44] of you to join us this evening.
[20:45] >> Thank you.
[20:45] >> Good night, sir. Uh joining us now
[20:47] Senator Paul Tsongas and Governor Jerry
[20:49] Brown. Uh
[20:51] a discouraging evening for you, Senator
[20:52] Tsongas?
[20:54] >> Well, we would Let me start off by
[20:56] acknowledging that Bill Clinton did
[20:58] well. I mean, give him credit. We both
[21:00] went into uh states that are very large.
[21:02] He had obviously the financial
[21:04] advantage, but he won those two states,
[21:06] and I think, you know, those of us
[21:08] who've been in this business a long time
[21:09] have to step back and simply um tip our
[21:12] hat to how he did.
[21:13] >> At which point and and I I hate to do
[21:16] this. I mean, there's nothing worse than
[21:17] than having had a bad day at the polls
[21:19] and then having some reporter ask you
[21:20] these nasty questions. But at which
[21:22] point
[21:22] >> look look at what it was like when I
[21:24] began a year ago. So, uh
[21:26] you know, I'm a far better off now than
[21:27] I was then. So, feel free.
[21:29] >> Well, you're very good natured about it,
[21:31] but at at at which point does Paul
[21:32] Tsongas say, you know, it really is time
[21:34] to get out of this thing? I mean,
[21:35] Clinton's got it sewn up.
[21:37] >> Well, we have to take our message in I'm
[21:39] here in Connecticut. And um that the
[21:42] primary takes place next Tuesday, and
[21:44] obviously we have to do well here.
[21:45] There's no question about that.
[21:47] >> And even if you did well there, uh you
[21:49] know, Connecticut is not Illinois, it is
[21:51] not Michigan. Uh we've all been
[21:54] focusing, I mean, the politicians and
[21:56] the reporters have all been focusing in
[21:57] a sense on these two great Midwestern
[22:00] states because in a sense they are so
[22:01] representative of the rest of the
[22:03] country. If that message is
[22:04] representative, it's not good news for
[22:06] you, and it's not really good news for
[22:08] Governor Brown, either.
[22:09] >> Well, we talked about change, but the
[22:10] fact is the Democratic establishment
[22:12] which you were just talking about um was
[22:15] in Bill's camp. And much of the um uh
[22:18] union hierarchy in Michigan. The fact is
[22:20] change has to come from someone else who
[22:23] can talk about the manufacturing base of
[22:24] the country and the need to invest in
[22:26] that. And in a state like Connecticut,
[22:28] it's very representative in that sense.
[22:30] So, let's see what happens here on
[22:31] Tuesday.
[22:32] >> Governor Brown, uh it has been suggested
[22:35] to me that even if you couldn't make it
[22:37] as the Democratic nominee, and certainly
[22:40] it looks right now as though that is not
[22:42] very likely. Jerry Brown is
[22:44] >> Well,
[22:45] >> I wouldn't say I wouldn't agree with
[22:46] that.
[22:46] >> I wouldn't expect I wouldn't expect you
[22:48] to agree with me, but but let me just
[22:49] finish the question if I may.
[22:51] Uh
[22:52] the suggestion's been made that Jerry
[22:53] Brown's the kind of guy who might just
[22:54] run on a third party ticket. Would you?
[22:57] >> Now, I'm fighting for the soul of this
[22:58] party, and I I want to point out
[23:00] something since we're all watching this
[23:01] thing. Uh you saw Governor Clinton
[23:04] talking about change, change, change. I
[23:07] mean, these guys take polls. They know
[23:09] what is now hot. We proved that. I went
[23:12] into Michigan. I was at seven points. By
[23:14] the end of the week I'd surged to 30.
[23:16] Everywhere I go, if I spend any time,
[23:19] it just it ignites a firestorm of
[23:22] enthusiasm. I want to tell you, you can
[23:25] talk change, but if your money and your
[23:27] connections and the people behind you
[23:29] are the same old status quo, it's not
[23:31] going to work. If you want change, you
[23:33] got to break the eggs if you want to
[23:35] scramble them. And the eggs, if you want
[23:37] to use that metaphor, the leadership of
[23:39] our party, the incumbents, you have to
[23:41] be willing to make a frontal assault on
[23:43] what I call a decrepit status quo. My
[23:46] candidacy is justified in that it is
[23:49] offering a real alternative. And when I
[23:51] talk about change, I mean, they're going
[23:54] to feel the hot winds of the change I
[23:56] want. And the the limit to $100, the
[23:58] grassroots, the 800 number, these are
[24:00] all tools to access a base of power that
[24:04] is different than the one that's
[24:05] governing this country. So, we're
[24:07] talking about a fundamental challenge to
[24:10] a lot of our friends and peers that I
[24:12] believe are not up to the task of
[24:14] committing this country to economic
[24:16] justice.
[24:17] >> Governor, well, go ahead, Senator
[24:18] Salinger. I have the feeling you wanted
[24:19] to get in there and then I have another
[24:21] question I'd like to ask Governor Brown.
[24:22] Go ahead.
[24:23] >> No, it's just the we're spending so much
[24:25] time with each other that
[24:27] we're becoming old friends here. That's
[24:29] all.
[24:30] >> Yeah.
[24:30] >> Old friends are getting ready to finish
[24:32] one another's sentences here.
[24:34] >> No, we it may be both.
[24:37] >> The question I was
[24:39] Well, the question I was going to pose
[24:40] to you, Governor, is is is this. There
[24:41] is no question that you have indeed
[24:43] excited more attention, more interest,
[24:46] and quite frankly, more votes than I
[24:47] think a lot of the experts
[24:49] gave you credit for. But you're as good
[24:51] at this political math as anybody else
[24:53] is. When you go to New York, if you
[24:55] don't have sufficient uh,
[24:58] for the nomination, you're not going to
[24:59] get the nomination. I don't see how that
[25:01] arithmetic works out. How do you see it?
[25:03] I mean, for
[25:04] >> well, I got to start winning. We got to
[25:06] look at Wisconsin, Connecticut is a
[25:08] little tougher, New York, Indiana,
[25:10] California. These are big states. Bill
[25:12] Clinton now is on the top. He is the
[25:15] establishment candidate. There is some
[25:16] resistance in the Senate and other
[25:18] places. But, if if our message can get
[25:21] through, uh, then we can shake up the
[25:24] the whole primary process. I I see the
[25:27] numbers building up. We're only halfway
[25:29] through. If you remember, Bobby Kennedy
[25:31] didn't beat Gene McCarthy till they got
[25:33] to California. That was in June. Now,
[25:35] you front-loaded this thing, so there's
[25:36] a a big southern influence from Super
[25:40] Tuesday. Well, now moving forward, and I
[25:42] feel that if the national media, as they
[25:45] appear to be doing, will give me a
[25:46] chance for a couple of weeks, I'll give
[25:49] them a red-hot message that'll shake up
[25:52] this party and offer this country a real
[25:54] alternative, and that is my intention
[25:56] between now and New York.
[25:58] >> Senator Tsongas, let me have your
[25:59] analysis, if you would, of of what I
[26:02] asked Governor Clinton before, namely
[26:04] those superdelegates who seem to have
[26:06] been somewhat reluctant [snorts]
[26:08] to jump on anybody's bandwagon. Do you
[26:10] think they are going to start jumping on
[26:12] the Clinton bandwagon now?
[26:13] >> Well, I think some of them probably
[26:15] will, but a lot of them will not. The
[26:16] fact is that there's a lot of concern
[26:18] about I mean, there's only one end game
[26:20] here, and that is beating George Bush.
[26:22] So, I mean, you know those people as
[26:24] well as I do, Ted. They're people who
[26:26] are going to take the polls, look at
[26:28] which candidate can run the best against
[26:30] George Bush come next November, and that
[26:32] basically means taking the center.
[26:35] You're going to have to go into the
[26:36] independents and to the moderate
[26:37] Republicans on economic issues mainly,
[26:40] but also some social issues, and take
[26:42] those people away from George Bush. And
[26:44] these people are going to be, you know,
[26:46] they're not people who have forgotten
[26:48] how to count. They're going to just take
[26:50] those polls, see what the story is, and
[26:52] then line up against who they perceive
[26:54] to be the strongest candidate. It was
[26:56] always so, it will always be that way.
[26:58] >> I would I would argue, Senator, there's
[26:59] only one way that you can take it away
[27:01] from Governor Clinton though at this
[27:03] point, and that is to make the case in
[27:05] very strong and perhaps harsh terms that
[27:07] he's not the man to beat George Bush.
[27:09] But if you do that, you tear the party
[27:10] apart.
[27:11] >> Well, it's a dilemma. That's why, you
[27:13] know, you have to do it state by state.
[27:15] You take your message to the various
[27:17] states, and obviously Connecticut is the
[27:19] next round.
[27:19] >> Governor Brown, we have only a few
[27:21] seconds. Go ahead.
[27:21] >> Ted Ted, you just stated the dilemma.
[27:24] When you start telling the truth, then
[27:25] the party hierarchy says, "Shush." But
[27:28] then if you don't, George Bush gets the
[27:30] fun of picking off our nominee. We've
[27:33] got a long way to go. There's a lot to
[27:34] talk about, and just give us a little
[27:37] attention for the next few weeks. Don't
[27:39] close down this primary, and we'll give
[27:41] you a hot contest that'll justify your
[27:44] ratings, your viewership, and I think
[27:46] it'll be worthwhile for the country
[27:48] itself.
[27:49] >> Best offer I've had all day. Thank you,
[27:50] Governor. Thank you, Senator. So nice to
[27:52] have you both to join us.
[27:53] >> Very good. Thank you.
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