Hasan Piker isn't worried about being a political boogeyman this midterms season | Newsmakers

Channel: NPR

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Language: English (original, YouTube automatic captions)

[0:00] The way that I'm portrayed in the media

[0:01] is an America-hating,

[0:03] >> [music]

[0:04] >> communist, Islamist fundamentalist who

[0:06] wants to secretly do jihad, and then

[0:09] also at the same time very woke and gay.

[0:11] Of course, I I, you know, say incendiary

[0:14] things, but it's [music] not

[0:16] reflected on in the same way

[0:18] when

[0:19] someone who's white,

[0:22] >> [music]

[0:22] >> Christian,

[0:23] born and raised in America is saying

[0:25] incendiary things.

[0:26] >> Your world view has gotten you barred

[0:28] from travel. College campuses debate

[0:30] whether they should have you on their

[0:32] campuses. Is the price you pay for your

[0:35] ideas and your stances has it gotten too

[0:37] high?

[0:38] >> I think that there is no price too high

[0:41] to pay as long as I'm allowed to say the

[0:44] truth.

[0:45] >> Hasan is one of the most important

[0:48] political forces among young people

[0:50] today. The 35-year-old commentator does

[0:52] daily live streams on Twitch. That's

[0:55] where he calls out the Democratic Party,

[0:56] lambasts conservatives, dissects the

[0:58] latest viral memes. His unfiltered and

[1:01] at times [music] incendiary style has

[1:03] generated fans and fury. has

[1:07] talked a [music] lot recently about his

[1:08] political views, but we wanted to talk

[1:11] to him about the backlash against those

[1:12] views, as well as the midterms, his

[1:15] audience reach, and his role in the

[1:17] future [music] of American politics.

[1:22] >> Hasan welcome to Newsmakers and

[1:25] thanks for being here.

[1:26] >> Uh this is a real honor. It's very

[1:28] exciting. I listen to NPR every morning.

[1:30] >> Oh, you do?

[1:31] >> Yeah, and all the time as a matter of

[1:33] fact.

[1:34] >> So, are we on your stream?

[1:35] >> Um you're also on the stream all the

[1:37] time. You're probably on the stream

[1:38] right now. By the time this video comes

[1:40] out, I will definitely watch it on

[1:41] stream.

[1:42] >> So, I want to get to who you are and why

[1:46] it feels like everyone is talking about

[1:48] you. But before I get there, I want to

[1:50] start with a really important Senate

[1:51] race in Michigan.

[1:53] Um you campaigned for Democrat Abdul

[1:55] El-Sayed, and you're credited with

[1:58] really why he might have won his

[2:00] primary, but we've also seen him

[2:02] distancing himself from you lately

[2:03] because he's attacked for his

[2:05] association with you.

[2:07] Do you think that association could cost

[2:09] him the election?

[2:11] >> No, and I don't think the Republicans

[2:13] believe that any longer either. The

[2:15] Republicans have no idea what to do with

[2:18] themselves. Trump is historically

[2:19] unpopular, the economy is in shambles.

[2:23] He ran on being the peace president, he

[2:25] lied about that. Very clearly,

[2:28] um, and gas prices are are far too high.

[2:32] Electricity

[2:33] uh the the energy prices have gone up as

[2:34] well cuz we're subsidizing data centers

[2:36] all around the country. People are

[2:39] overall very upset with how things have

[2:41] panned out, including Trump voters.

[2:44] So, they can't really lean into Donald

[2:46] Trump. Donald Trump is a a

[2:48] representative of chaos.

[2:50] And so,

[2:52] they have to find a new target to

[2:54] attack. So, I guess they wanted to

[2:56] position the Democrats as radical.

[2:59] And and communist and and I guess uh in

[3:02] some instances uh Islamist

[3:04] fundamentalists.

[3:06] Uh and

[3:08] they thought that identifying a random

[3:10] Twitch streamer from California would be

[3:12] a

[3:13] really reliable way to do that and

[3:15] really successful way to do that.

[3:17] And they weren't [snorts] shy about this

[3:18] either. They There was plenty of

[3:20] reporting leading up to the

[3:22] um

[3:22] the unorthodox Republican midterm

[3:24] convention that took place.

[3:27] Uh where this is what they were they

[3:29] openly said that this is what they would

[3:30] do.

[3:31] >> Well, you were mentioned at that

[3:33] convention quite prominently.

[3:35] >> Um, the problem is most people don't

[3:37] know who I am.

[3:39] Uh and

[3:40] and even if they do know who I am, and

[3:43] even if they have a negative association

[3:45] with uh my world view because they've

[3:48] seen these attack ads or they've seen

[3:51] the media coverage.

[3:53] >> [snorts]

[3:53] >> Um

[3:54] connecting me back to

[3:56] a campaign

[3:58] is very difficult. And that's precisely

[4:02] the reason why it's been a failure. And

[4:04] there's been polling on this.

[4:05] >> But what do you mean connecting me back

[4:07] to a campaign? Cuz you have campaigned

[4:08] for different candidates that you

[4:09] believe in.

[4:10] >> I'm I'm at the end of the day I'm a

[4:12] Twitch streamer. I hold no political

[4:13] office. I have no real political power.

[4:16] >> Mhm.

[4:16] >> So, uh getting people to be upset uh at

[4:20] a Twitch streamer and their affiliation

[4:23] as uh if you want to call it a surrogate

[4:25] in the in the primary is is going to be

[4:28] very difficult, especially when there

[4:30] are real crises going on in the country.

[4:34] >> Support for Newsmakers and the following

[4:36] message come from NPR sponsor

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[4:52] >> [music]

[4:52] >> Do you think you give the Republicans

[4:54] ammunition to use um to use you as a

[4:58] cudgel for the Democratic Party?

[5:00] >> I think guilt by association politics is

[5:02] uh not as successful as people think uh

[5:05] they are.

[5:05] >> Mhm.

[5:06] >> Um Republicans have had rabble-rousers

[5:08] and firebrands uh that have played a

[5:11] formative role in galvanizing their base

[5:14] um for the last couple of decades.

[5:17] Um Democrats sometimes used to stress

[5:19] that association as a way to campaign.

[5:23] Um but I think even Democrats understood

[5:25] that it's largely ineffective, and

[5:27] they've stopped doing it. A lot of

[5:29] people try to uh make this uh

[5:32] comparison between myself and and Nick

[5:34] Fuentes, for example. I find that

[5:36] comparison to be disgusting.

[5:37] >> known anti-Semitic.

[5:38] >> known anti-Semitic, neo-Nazi

[5:41] um who was participant of January 6th,

[5:44] as well.

[5:45] And um I think a closer comparison would

[5:48] probably be to someone like Charlie

[5:50] Kirk, who's also operated as a campaign

[5:52] surrogate at times or fundraised for

[5:53] candidates.

[5:55] Uh, and I've

[5:56] never heard a Democrat even make that

[5:58] association a problem for any

[6:02] uh, particular candidate. And not only

[6:05] that, but also there certainly wouldn't

[6:07] be a lot of Republicans who would

[6:08] criticize other Republicans for

[6:10] affiliating with Charlie Kirk.

[6:11] >> Does Abdullah Saeed it's still Do you

[6:13] still talk to him? Do you still Are you

[6:15] still involved in any way in the

[6:16] campaign?

[6:17] >> I'm not involved in any way in the

[6:18] campaign. And I technically have never

[6:20] been involved in any way in the

[6:21] campaign. I I did two campaign stops uh,

[6:24] at two different universities early on

[6:26] with Abdullah Saeed and it is, you know,

[6:28] caused quite the controversy. But

[6:30] outside of that, um, my my support for

[6:33] Abdullah Saeed is is uh, my support as

[6:37] an American citizen. Uh, as an American

[6:39] citizen and public figure who has a lot

[6:41] of fans, um, specifically under the age

[6:44] of 45 all around the country, but

[6:46] especially in Michigan as well. Uh, and

[6:49] that's always been the case.

[6:50] >> been reporting that he actually has

[6:52] called you and said don't talk to me

[6:53] don't talk about me on the stream. Is

[6:55] that true?

[6:56] >> Uh, no. He's He's not told me to stop

[6:59] talking about him on stream. Um, if that

[7:02] were the case, I'd be doing a very bad

[7:04] job.

[7:04] >> Because I Because I saw you were talking

[7:05] about the course.

[7:06] >> And he's Yes, and this is a

[7:09] nationally significant

[7:11] race. It's a very significant uh, race.

[7:14] The the Democrat Senate majority hinges

[7:17] on this race in some respects. This and

[7:19] many others, certainly, but it's one of

[7:22] them. Uh, and I'm a political

[7:24] commentator. Of course I'm going to talk

[7:26] about these races, right? It's uh, um,

[7:30] so no, that's not That has not been a a

[7:33] conversation.

[7:34] >> Now, you have a very large following.

[7:38] Millions of people listen to your

[7:39] stream, but also a lot of Americans have

[7:41] no idea who you are.

[7:43] Um you between August and September you

[7:45] were mentioned nearly 2,000 times on

[7:47] broadcast TV news. About half of that on

[7:49] Fox News.

[7:51] But most as I said Americans don't

[7:53] actually watch your Twitch. Um

[7:55] and so for them you kind of came out of

[7:57] nowhere. You're suddenly mentioned

[7:59] everywhere. You're in campaign ads.

[8:00] Benjamin Netanyahu, the Prime Minister

[8:02] of Israel's mentioning you on the floor

[8:04] of the United Nations General Assembly.

[8:06] The president talks about you.

[8:08] So who is the Hasan that's

[8:10] portrayed in all of these ads and spoken

[8:14] about and and who is the Hasan

[8:16] that you see yourself as? Describe that

[8:19] gap. Who are you?

[8:19] >> I mean there's a massive gap. I think

[8:22] the way that I'm portrayed is is

[8:23] unbelievably negative, which is

[8:25] expected. Um especially because they're

[8:28] treating me like I'm a politician or or

[8:30] someone who's actually campaigning when

[8:32] I'm not. Um the problem there is uh when

[8:37] political attack ads uh take shape on

[8:41] the campaign trail

[8:43] the candidates themselves also have

[8:44] these massive coffers to re-identify

[8:47] themselves. I don't have that. I have no

[8:49] institutional backing. I have no

[8:52] mainstream media allies. As a matter of

[8:54] fact, even on the uh liberal side, there

[8:57] are plenty of consultants in Washington

[8:59] D.C. who also despise me. So they're

[9:01] heavily leaning into these attack ads as

[9:03] well because I think they're seeing this

[9:05] as a factional battle that's taking

[9:06] place within the Democratic Party right

[9:08] now.

[9:09] Um they have uh propped me up as a

[9:11] figurehead of this insurgent left

[9:14] movement. And I'll admit I've certainly

[9:16] played a role in in being propped up

[9:19] into this position as well. I mean I've

[9:21] campaigned with all of the insurgent

[9:22] left candidates all around the country,

[9:24] fundraised for them. And uh you know,

[9:27] phone banked for them, door knocked for

[9:29] them.

[9:30] So there's certainly a little bit of

[9:32] legitimacy to that.

[9:34] Um having said that uh the way that I'm

[9:37] portrayed in the media is a an

[9:38] America-hating

[9:40] communist Islamic Islamist

[9:42] fundamentalist who wants to secretly do

[9:45] jihad. Uh and then also at the same time

[9:48] very woke and gay.

[9:50] So, there's this weird uh inconsistency

[9:52] in their messaging. I don't fully

[9:54] understand it. Um but who I am is is

[9:56] very simple. I'm a socialist. I'm an

[9:58] anti-imperialist. I want what's best for

[10:01] Americans and I want what's best for

[10:02] everyone or all around the world. I feel

[10:03] like we live in the wealthiest nation on

[10:06] the planet uh and I find it

[10:08] unconscionable that there are 600,000

[10:11] people who

[10:13] go to sleep outside every single night.

[10:15] Uh I find it unconscionable that we

[10:17] uh do not have a

[10:20] a a uh

[10:22] public health care system in this

[10:23] country. We certainly have enough money

[10:25] to pay for it. Um I I find it morally

[10:28] repugnant that we use so much of our

[10:31] productive output,

[10:33] so much of our resources on waging wars

[10:35] overseas, ceaseless, endless, and very

[10:38] bloody wars overseas, destabilizing the

[10:40] entire world instead of using all of

[10:42] that wealth and using all those

[10:44] resources on ourselves. Simply put,

[10:46] that's what I believe. That's what I've

[10:48] been advocating for for the last decade.

[10:51] Uh I try to uh actively de-radicalize

[10:54] people that are on the far right. Uh

[10:56] I've seen a lot of success in that

[10:57] field. Uh I try to talk to um people

[11:01] that are in the margins of, you know,

[11:02] transphobia, homophobia, anti-black

[11:05] racism, and pull them back uh and and

[11:08] try to explain to them that um these

[11:10] reactionary ideas might come across as

[11:13] appealing, but they're actually

[11:14] distractions at the end of the day.

[11:17] And again, seen a lot of great success

[11:19] there as well. Um this outlet, alongside

[11:21] many of the mainstream outlets,

[11:23] including those who now attack me,

[11:26] uh wrote extensively about what I uh

[11:30] have been doing for the past decade or

[11:31] so, talking about how I was capable of

[11:34] converting young men and bringing them

[11:36] back into the left.

[11:37] >> cuz the first time you really came on

[11:39] scene nationally, it was probably in the

[11:41] spring.

[11:42] Uh and you were really spoken about as

[11:45] like, is he the Joe Rogan of the left?

[11:47] Can he appeal to the young men that

[11:49] Democrats just cannot appeal to?

[11:51] And that really has morphed now to is he

[11:55] a liability? Somebody that Democrats

[11:57] must disavow. How did that narrative

[12:00] shift?

[12:01] >> Well,

[12:02] Joe Rogan was the Joe Rogan of the left

[12:04] at some point, right? And he also became

[12:08] a liability in the eyes of the

[12:09] Democrats. And there's obviously good

[12:11] reason for that.

[12:13] Having said that, with my experience,

[12:18] it's pretty simple.

[12:20] I said it even back then, when people

[12:22] were looking for a Joe Rogan of the

[12:24] left.

[12:25] You can't podcast your your way out of

[12:28] this problem. The the problems are with

[12:30] the party. The problems are

[12:32] with a lack of clear definable policies

[12:36] that the party represents at the

[12:37] national level. This is a real issue,

[12:40] and we haven't been able to solve this

[12:41] crisis for the Democrats, and that's

[12:43] part of the reason why the Democrats are

[12:45] still largely very unpopular, even

[12:47] though Trump is the least popular

[12:48] political figure perhaps in history.

[12:51] >> Yeah, the party is yeah, as you point

[12:53] out, not polling well.

[12:53] >> Yeah. So, that's still a ever-present

[12:57] issue.

[12:58] And the other thing I always brought up

[13:00] was that I'm an independent media figure

[13:04] that is also not a party apparatchik in

[13:06] the way that, for example, Charlie Kirk

[13:08] was. In the way that many Republican

[13:10] commentators are and will continue to

[13:14] be. They serve the interests of the

[13:16] Republican party.

[13:18] I do not serve the interests of the

[13:19] Democratic party. I have my own

[13:21] opinions, I have my own goals, I have my

[13:23] own political ideology, and I have

[13:26] policies that I want to see get

[13:28] implemented and I'm always going to push

[13:30] for that.

[13:31] This is a major issue for the Democrats

[13:33] because when they said they were looking

[13:35] for their own Joe Rogan on the left,

[13:36] what they meant was someone who will

[13:39] unconditionally and vociferously support

[13:42] all Democrats across the board

[13:44] that will maybe even at times

[13:47] dial back on their criticisms of

[13:48] Democrats when it's worthy.

[13:50] >> Mhm.

[13:50] >> Um and that's a fundamental

[13:52] misunderstanding of what I do and what I

[13:54] always have sought out to do.

[13:57] >> You do say incendiary things. You've

[14:00] described some of the things that you

[14:01] say as as vulgar.

[14:03] Um

[14:04] you also describe yourself as a one-man

[14:06] media empire. You do have a huge

[14:08] platform.

[14:09] >> I wouldn't say empire.

[14:10] >> I've heard you say that. One-man media

[14:11] empire.

[14:12] >> Okay, fine. One-man media

[14:14] [clears throat] platform. So, one-man

[14:15] media platform. I mean, you have the

[14:17] reach of some of these broadcast

[14:19] networks just yourself.

[14:21] Do you feel a responsibility

[14:23] maybe to dial back some of that

[14:25] language, especially language that

[14:26] you've in the past been like, I

[14:28] shouldn't have said it that way. I

[14:29] shouldn't have

[14:30] maybe I shouldn't have talked about I

[14:32] mean, I think of like Rick Scott. He one

[14:34] time said, well, maybe he should be

[14:35] killed over Medicaid fraud. I don't

[14:36] remember the exact wording, but

[14:38] >> I said if Republicans cared about actual

[14:40] Medicare fraud, they would

[14:42] uh apply capital punishment to Rick

[14:44] Scott is what I should have said. That

[14:46] would have probably been a little bit

[14:47] better. But, it wasn't it wasn't about

[14:48] like an assassination attempt at Rick

[14:50] Scott, more so

[14:51] trying to identify the hypocrisy with

[14:54] what Mike Johnson was saying at the

[14:55] time, which is uh

[14:58] uh

[14:58] that they were invested in in tackling

[15:01] Medicare fraud.

[15:02] >> So,

[15:02] >> But, they were just simply trying to cut

[15:03] Medicare.

[15:04] >> What I'm trying to ask you here is when

[15:06] you look back at these this wording,

[15:08] >> Mhm.

[15:09] >> however it's meant, it is being

[15:11] broadcast to millions of people. Do you

[15:13] think about not saying incendiary

[15:15] things?

[15:16] >> Yes, I think about not saying incendiary

[15:17] things all the time.

[15:19] Um

[15:20] I think the issue here is is uh the

[15:24] medium. Most people don't understand

[15:25] what Twitch streaming is. Um but simply

[15:28] put, I'm providing extemporaneous

[15:31] commentary on hot-button issues in a

[15:35] very contentious environment where

[15:36] there's a lot of back and forth

[15:38] communication with anonymous chatters,

[15:40] anonymous users that can be tuning in

[15:41] from all around the world in real time

[15:45] for 8 hours a day.

[15:47] Um

[15:48] this, of course,

[15:50] creates tremendous liability. But most

[15:52] people don't understand the medium or

[15:54] the format.

[15:55] And therefore, they look at these

[15:58] negatively framed clips, out of context

[16:00] clips,

[16:02] and sometimes clips that are in context

[16:04] where I'm, you know, engaging in

[16:05] hyperbole,

[16:06] joking, [snorts]

[16:07] or even

[16:09] um

[16:10] deploying a metaphor. And they they

[16:13] think that this is a pre- planned,

[16:17] pre-produced segment where I decided to

[16:21] say this

[16:22] say this thing that they're now seeing

[16:25] in the in the most negative lens

[16:26] possible.

[16:27] Um that's a big chunk of the the That's

[16:31] where a big chunk of the problems come

[16:33] from. Um

[16:35] there is no other way to actually live

[16:39] broadcast real-time news analysis and

[16:42] commentary

[16:43] without some friction. Um Having said

[16:47] that, I am very careful. I know it

[16:49] sounds crazy to say.

[16:50] >> Are you?

[16:50] >> I Yes, I am. Cuz again, remember, think

[16:54] about

[16:55] what it means to speak for 21,000 hours

[16:59] about politics every single day for 8

[17:02] hours a day. Every single thought that

[17:04] you've ever had

[17:06] is live broadcasted to an entire arena

[17:10] full of people. Some of those people are

[17:12] tuning in with the express purpose of

[17:14] trying to get a rise out of you so they

[17:16] can clip it

[17:18] and then post it on the internet.

[17:20] This is the media environment that I I

[17:24] grew up in. This is this is the the

[17:26] media environment that I I you know

[17:28] developed my platform.

[17:31] Um I think it's shocking that it there's

[17:33] only you know a handful of clips that

[17:35] people deploy.

[17:37] >> [laughter]

[17:37] >> So,

[17:38] you've spoken about 21,000 hours that

[17:40] you're speaking and being clipped out,

[17:42] but you still say the things that you

[17:44] say. Are you just making excuses for for

[17:47] that language?

[17:49] >> No, I'm not. I'm just trying to explain

[17:52] to people that it is virtually

[17:55] impossible

[17:56] to

[17:58] be perfect

[18:00] in this medium.

[18:02] Because most people are just um unaware

[18:05] and they shouldn't be aware of this

[18:06] medium at all. It's Twitch. I understand

[18:08] it. It's supposed to be a gaming

[18:10] platform.

[18:11] >> lucrative and now powerful place that

[18:13] you're

[18:13] >> Yeah, and I and

[18:16] you should hear what some other people

[18:17] are saying on the platform or don't.

[18:19] It's probably better for everyone's

[18:21] sanity that they don't do that, but um

[18:25] it's not an excuse. I I understand and

[18:28] uh I'm very aware of uh

[18:31] how the language I use can get

[18:33] interpreted. But the reason why I

[18:35] describe this over and over again is

[18:36] because I need people to understand this

[18:38] is something that Joe Rogan, ironically

[18:40] enough back when I was a fan many many

[18:42] years ago, like more than a decade ago,

[18:45] uh would talk about quite a bit.

[18:47] Um where he was this trailblazer, this

[18:49] pioneer in podcasting at a time when

[18:51] people didn't fully understand what

[18:53] podcasting was.

[18:55] And the format of having a 3-hour

[18:57] peer-to-peer conversation was unique at

[19:00] the time.

[19:01] It just didn't really happen.

[19:03] But that format, albeit new, created

[19:07] tremendous opportunities for out of

[19:09] context clipping. And people would get

[19:12] clipped out of context all the time in

[19:13] these, you know, back and forth

[19:15] conversations.

[19:16] And [snorts] I remember Joe Rogan

[19:17] constantly complaining about this even

[19:20] back then. Now, having said that, his

[19:22] worldview has shifted dramatically uh

[19:25] in the last decade or so, and uh I

[19:27] certainly

[19:28] uh stopped being as big as a fan as I

[19:30] was around I would say 2015-2016 when he

[19:33] started having a bunch of white

[19:34] supremacists on his broadcast and

[19:37] offering them favorable interviews. Um

[19:40] having said that, it it I it stuck with

[19:43] me that uh it was more so the medium

[19:46] that was uh creating these uh these

[19:49] interesting media opportunities, a

[19:51] medium that a lot of people didn't fully

[19:53] understand at the time. And nowadays, I

[19:55] think when you say, "Oh, this is an out

[19:57] of context clip," most people get it. Um

[19:59] most people recognize it for what it is,

[20:01] especially if it's on a podcast.

[20:04] Um so, I think these are the growing

[20:05] pains of Twitch as a as a platform. Um

[20:09] it being so new.

[20:10] >> Are there things you regret saying?

[20:12] >> All the time. And I'm sure that there

[20:14] will be things that I regret uh saying

[20:16] in the future as well.

[20:18] >> Do you think that the statements you

[20:20] make as a streamer

[20:23] are the sole reason that they cause such

[20:26] controversy or that you make them while

[20:28] being named Hasan?

[20:30] >> I absolutely do do think that uh a big

[20:33] part of the problem is that, yes, my

[20:35] name is Hasan.

[20:37] I'm, you know, I'm a Turkish-American

[20:39] dual citizen.

[20:40] Um I grew up in Turkey as well. You

[20:43] know, I was born here in the United

[20:45] States of America, but I grew up in

[20:46] Turkey, and I think there is this

[20:49] constant need to otherize people

[20:53] um that that

[20:56] Republicans engage in, and maybe even

[20:58] sometimes liberals fall for as well.

[21:01] And uh that is certainly an element of

[21:03] it. Of course, I I, you know, say

[21:05] incendiary things.

[21:08] But it's not

[21:09] reflected on in the same way

[21:12] when

[21:13] someone who's white,

[21:16] Christian,

[21:17] born and raised in America is saying

[21:19] incendiary things.

[21:20] >> Mhm.

[21:22] As somebody who knows what it's like to

[21:23] feel dehumanized for your ethnic

[21:26] background, for your I know you're not

[21:27] religious, but being from a Muslim

[21:30] background,

[21:31] >> Mhm.

[21:31] >> when you hear people say, "Why would you

[21:34] use dehumanizing language like inbred

[21:36] for some ultra-Orthodox Jews?" Or

[21:39] "Zionist pig." What do you say to them

[21:41] as somebody who has felt that as well?

[21:44] >> So, great question. Um, I have a policy

[21:48] to be ruthless to those who are bullying

[21:51] others, to be ruthless to those who

[21:53] abide by certain

[21:55] ideologies that are conducting great

[21:58] harm.

[21:59] Um, as far as the language that I deploy

[22:01] that is considered dehumanizing like

[22:04] inbred,

[22:05] um, it's one that I it's one that I use

[22:08] quite commonly as a as a pejorative

[22:10] because as a pejorative towards

[22:13] right-wing reactionary ideology,

[22:16] ethno-supremacist ideology,

[22:18] neo-Nazi ideology,

[22:21] um, because

[22:23] I find it to be an apt pejorative to

[22:25] deploy considering that

[22:28] these supremacist ideologies often times

[22:30] revolve around ethnic purity, racial

[22:33] purity,

[22:35] um, it's not of course it's not meant to

[22:37] be taken seriously.

[22:39] Um, having said that, that is the reason

[22:41] why I deploy this pejorative

[22:44] unconditionally across the board. And

[22:45] same with, you know, calling someone a

[22:47] pig. Um,

[22:49] it's it gets heated at times, you know?

[22:52] I'm I'm a passionate guy, I get angry.

[22:54] I I have to,

[22:56] you know,

[22:57] explain my frustration, communicate my

[22:59] frustration somehow. Very different

[23:01] format that we have here, obviously, but

[23:04] um

[23:05] you know, I think that a lot of people

[23:06] feel this way. A lot of people get very

[23:08] frustrated. Uh and uh it's never

[23:12] directed at someone for

[23:15] uh their actual background. It's usually

[23:18] uh their their actions or their belief

[23:21] system.

[23:22] Uh and often times and almost all the

[23:24] time it's their uh reactionary belief

[23:27] system that causes me to call them a pig

[23:29] or inbred or something like that.

[23:33] >> You There's another very online person,

[23:35] Tucker Carlson, who you couldn't be more

[23:37] different politically, right?

[23:39] >> Yeah.

[23:40] Oh, yeah.

[23:40] >> Uh but you do come to the same

[23:43] conclusions on certain issues when it

[23:44] comes to Israel-Palestine,

[23:46] the continued killings in Gaza.

[23:49] Make that make sense for me. How do you

[23:51] guys agree on a lot of US foreign policy

[23:55] issues

[23:56] and yet you're completely different

[23:58] politically?

[24:00] >> Yeah, I think about that a lot. And um

[24:04] you know, I I obviously I I'm still very

[24:06] critical of Tucker Carlson because

[24:08] uh I find his worldview to be not

[24:11] dissimilar to uh

[24:14] the the ideology that he criticizes in

[24:16] Israel.

[24:18] Zionism being an ethno-supremacist,

[24:20] religious-supremacist ideology that

[24:22] seeks out the extermination. Yes, that's

[24:24] how I see it.

[24:24] >> Not everyone sees it that way.

[24:26] >> No, I understand. Um I think many people

[24:29] are are coming to uh see it that way,

[24:32] including former uh Zionist scholars

[24:35] like Omar Bartov, but having said that

[24:37] >> the I will point out the polling shows

[24:39] that the majority of Americans right now

[24:41] hold a negative view of Israel and its

[24:43] government, uh Israel's government right

[24:45] now.

[24:45] >> Um but the point I was trying to make is

[24:48] that uh the Tucker Carlsons of the world

[24:50] on the one hand will criticize the

[24:52] actions of Israel, but then also

[24:53] simultaneously

[24:55] want to turn America into Israel, but

[24:57] for Christian nationalists or for WASPs,

[24:59] right? And that I find to be very

[25:01] frustrating. I'm I'm an anti-fascist.

[25:04] That is the reason why I oppose Israel.

[25:06] I do not oppose Israel because it's the

[25:08] {quote} Jewish state or that

[25:11] the the violence is being conducted

[25:14] against Muslims and Christians in the

[25:16] hands of Jews. That's not my analysis at

[25:18] all. That's not That's not even

[25:20] secondary in this conversation. I'm

[25:22] against the violence altogether. Um so,

[25:26] when I see someone like Tucker Carlson

[25:28] make an incredibly convincing case

[25:31] uh who who identifies the atrocities,

[25:34] calls it out for what it is, but then

[25:36] also turn around and talk about the

[25:38] great replacement, about how whites are

[25:39] being replaced in the United States of

[25:41] America by way of immigration

[25:43] a week after that, I I find that

[25:45] fascinating.

[25:47] Uh but uh it's it's certainly a cause

[25:49] for concern, at least on my end. So,

[25:54] uh

[25:55] as far as Tucker Carlson's analysis of

[25:57] Israel, do I believe that he

[26:00] legitimately has seen

[26:02] uh this this bloodshed and finds it to

[26:06] be horrifying?

[26:08] Uh it's When you hear him, he's very

[26:10] convincing. So, it's tough not to assume

[26:12] that there is there It's tough to assume

[26:15] that that he's being insincere

[26:17] >> Mhm.

[26:18] >> um on that issue.

[26:20] Um

[26:21] having said that,

[26:23] uh if I were to be super cynical about

[26:27] his ambitions,

[26:28] I would assume that the reason why he's

[26:30] doing this because he understands that

[26:32] there's a sea change happening.

[26:34] He's reading the tea leaves.

[26:35] >> Among the American public?

[26:36] >> Among the American public and and even

[26:38] amongst the Republicans as well,

[26:40] especially in the next generation of

[26:42] Republicans, and he wants to get ahead

[26:43] of that wave shift, and he wants to

[26:47] at the very least lend credibility as an

[26:49] isolationist anti-war Republican and

[26:52] play a role in a in a broad coalition

[26:54] that will need to form in the post-Trump

[26:56] universe in the post-Trump post-Trump

[26:58] calculus.

[26:59] >> What are your ambitions? I mean, you

[27:01] have this platform. You're quite famous

[27:03] right now.

[27:04] Infamous among some.

[27:06] Um

[27:07] what are your ambitions?

[27:09] >> Um

[27:11] my ambitions have have always been the

[27:13] same. I just I want to

[27:15] to

[27:16] make life a little bit easier for

[27:19] everyone in the United States of America

[27:21] to the best of my ability, to build

[27:22] systems that will allow that to happen,

[27:24] to give American workers

[27:26] uh some dignity and some autonomy in

[27:28] their workplace.

[27:30] And uh there are numerous routes that uh

[27:33] we take in pursuit of this goal, of this

[27:36] shared agenda.

[27:37] Um electoralism is simply one route uh

[27:40] that I'm focusing on currently because

[27:42] the elections are happening currently.

[27:44] Um [snorts] but uh there are ongoing

[27:46] issues

[27:48] um that that have uh and and wounds that

[27:51] have yet to be healed in American

[27:53] society broadly speaking, and I want

[27:57] everyone to to take note of that, uh to

[28:01] develop a an awareness around these

[28:03] issues,

[28:04] and to

[28:06] uh demand solutions to these problems

[28:08] from their elected representatives, and

[28:10] hopefully

[28:11] uh make the necessary changes we want to

[28:13] see.

[28:15] >> Your world view has gotten you barred

[28:17] from travel in the UK at least

[28:19] uh when you tried tried to go for a

[28:20] speaking engagement there. You've been

[28:22] questioned uh upon return to the United

[28:24] States at the border.

[28:26] College campuses debate whether they

[28:27] should have you on their campuses.

[28:30] Is the price you pay for your ideas and

[28:33] your stances has it gotten too high?

[28:36] >> Um

[28:37] I think that there is no price too high

[28:40] to pay uh as long as

[28:42] I'm allowed to say the truth.

[28:44] Like I believe

[28:46] that I'm fighting for truth and justice.

[28:49] And no matter what happens, I'm going to

[28:52] continue that pursuit. There is no price

[28:54] that's too high to pay. Because

[28:56] at the end of the day

[28:58] >> What about your safety?

[28:59] >> I mean

[29:00] >> Do you feel safe?

[29:01] >> No.

[29:02] >> [laughter]

[29:02] >> I don't. No, of course not. I get death

[29:04] threats all the time. University of

[29:06] Texas Austin invited me to speak. The

[29:09] college Democrats invited me to speak on

[29:11] campus and

[29:12] they were um people were putting out the

[29:15] the schematics, the blueprints of the of

[29:17] the different locations that I was

[29:19] supposed to be speaking at. And I say

[29:21] different locations because the college

[29:24] actually changed the venue on numerous

[29:25] occasions, refused to give us the the

[29:29] large enough venue to accommodate the

[29:31] 3,000 people that had RSVP'd for it.

[29:33] >> read that so many people How many people

[29:35] ended up coming?

[29:35] >> Like 300 plus, almost 400. And and the

[29:40] only reason why the number at the end of

[29:42] the day was 400 because they also cut

[29:44] off the line. Um because, you know,

[29:46] there's metal detectors and we had a

[29:48] limited amount of time in the auditorium

[29:50] that they gave us. So, the police

[29:52] actually had to cut the line while

[29:53] people were still waiting to get in.

[29:56] >> Have you changed the way you live

[29:57] because of that?

[29:59] >> No, I try I try to never let fear

[30:03] motivate me in any way, shape or form,

[30:04] or never let these threats change what

[30:07] I'm going to do.

[30:08] >> I

[30:09] >> And what I'm going to say.

[30:10] >> You spoke about getting into streaming

[30:12] because

[30:13] out of loneliness um during COVID that

[30:16] you built a community

[30:18] um online and now you have these

[30:21] millions of followers.

[30:23] But I wonder if that thing that you were

[30:27] trying to solve, if you're back in that

[30:29] place of loneliness given the scrutiny

[30:31] of you and everything you say.

[30:34] >> Um no. I uh

[30:37] I don't I certainly don't feel lonely

[30:39] any longer. Um look, uh

[30:42] I I didn't start Twitch streaming

[30:44] because I felt lonely. I started Twitch

[30:45] streaming because I wanted to I knew

[30:48] that the this gaming sphere

[30:50] that I was a part of as a fan

[30:53] had a diverse array of ideologies

[30:55] represented and yet,

[30:57] amongst the commentary sphere, it was

[30:58] all right-wing. So, the the gamers are

[31:01] diverse, but the people that were doing

[31:04] political commentary that was like

[31:06] gaming adjacent were all right-wing.

[31:08] >> Mhm.

[31:09] >> I also wanted to have a a you know,

[31:12] media entity of my own cuz I was working

[31:15] for The Young Turks at the time, my

[31:16] uncle's

[31:18] you know, startup YouTube news channel.

[31:22] And I I wanted a place to call my own.

[31:26] And that's why I started. And I also

[31:28] wanted to be able to get better at

[31:30] off-the-cuff commentary cuz at the time

[31:32] everything I was doing was scripted and

[31:34] and pre-produced. I was producing

[31:36] everything. And I just wanted to get

[31:37] better at being able to speak

[31:39] off-the-cuff on political issues.

[31:41] Um, so I saw it as a training ground as

[31:43] well.

[31:44] Um,

[31:46] when COVID happened, that's when I was,

[31:49] you know, trapped at home

[31:50] >> Right.

[31:51] >> just as many others were.

[31:53] And that's when I definitely leaned in

[31:55] to Twitch streaming as as as a way to

[31:59] reach out to the outside world, but I

[32:01] think that's what a lot of people in my

[32:02] generation and younger did at the time.

[32:05] Everyone was looking for a sense of

[32:06] community.

[32:07] >> [snorts]

[32:07] >> And I recognized the responsibility in

[32:10] that at the time as well.

[32:11] And I wanted to make sure that this

[32:13] community

[32:14] that that we were cultivating

[32:17] fostered healthy attitudes overall. So,

[32:19] I would work out on stream for example

[32:21] and urge others to do the same at the

[32:23] same time.

[32:24] Um,

[32:26] now, as far as

[32:28] a feeling of loneliness now,

[32:30] I do not feel politically isolated at

[32:32] all.

[32:33] >> Mhm.

[32:34] >> Look.

[32:35] >> Even with people kind of distancing

[32:36] themselves?

[32:37] >> No, Not even a little bit. And here's

[32:39] why.

[32:40] I'm a socialist.

[32:42] I'm an anti-imperialist. And I've been

[32:44] doing this for the last 13 years.

[32:46] And 13 years ago

[32:50] we were in a dramatically worse position

[32:52] overall in this movement broadly.

[32:55] There are now

[32:57] self-identifying socialists running for

[32:59] office and winning. One of the most

[33:01] popular political figures in the country

[33:03] right now is the mayor of this beautiful

[33:05] city, Jumaane Williams.

[33:07] Someone who I was fortunate enough to be

[33:09] able to meet early on.

[33:10] >> Mhm.

[33:11] >> And even play somewhat of a small role,

[33:12] but a role nonetheless in his uh you

[33:15] know, primary campaign as well.

[33:17] And

[33:19] he is an anti-Zionist

[33:22] Muslim

[33:23] socialist mayor of New York City. And

[33:25] not only is he a good mayor

[33:28] he's also a very popular political

[33:30] figure. The most popular political

[33:31] figure in New York.

[33:32] I'd say that our movement is growing

[33:34] every single day. So

[33:37] this is the least lonely I've ever felt.

[33:40] >> You mentioned a few times that you're an

[33:41] anti-imperialist and you're very

[33:43] critical of US foreign policy um and the

[33:46] ills that it has caused in the world.

[33:47] But your critics will say

[33:49] you don't

[33:52] level the same scrutiny for countries

[33:55] like Iran, China, which also have

[33:58] imperialist

[33:59] are imperialist powers, have those

[34:01] ambitions. What would you say to that?

[34:04] >> I'd say that they're wrong. I mean, I I

[34:06] criticize um

[34:08] foreign adversaries and foreign allies

[34:09] alike

[34:11] all the time. But of course my criticism

[34:13] is broadly going to feature

[34:16] American foreign policy because I'm an

[34:17] American.

[34:18] And and

[34:20] it's it's twofold actually. It's one

[34:22] because I'm an American taxpayer and I

[34:25] feel like there's a moral culpability

[34:27] uh to the destabilizing actions that we

[34:30] commit all around the world.

[34:32] And then also America is the hegemonic

[34:34] superpower, so it has its hands in in

[34:39] every pie all around the world. There

[34:41] isn't anything that goes on

[34:44] in in a foreign country that America

[34:46] isn't at least observing or maybe

[34:48] quietly interfering in.

[34:51] Uh and of course this is the reason why

[34:53] I uh cover

[34:55] American intervention and uh

[34:58] and American ambitions uh far more than

[35:00] I do, let's say, you know, what China's

[35:03] doing. I mean, I've I've done coverage

[35:05] on uh China's foreign policy in Myanmar,

[35:08] for example, right? China has a very I

[35:11] mean, I'm I'm very critical of China's

[35:12] foreign policy, actually. I think that

[35:14] they are

[35:16] uh their their attitude is is very

[35:18] laissez-faire

[35:20] uh as as far as like letting other

[35:22] countries

[35:23] uh that are, you know, committing

[35:24] atrocities continue to do so as long as

[35:27] they're able to uh continue doing trade

[35:29] with them. They

[35:29] >> And China commits its own atrocities.

[35:31] >> Yes, and and of course as every great

[35:35] power [clears throat] does, right?

[35:36] Around the world uh to to varying

[35:38] degrees.

[35:39] Um and I'm critical of that as well.

[35:42] But I think the reason why a lot of

[35:43] people get frustrated about this or even

[35:45] make this accusation is because they

[35:48] don't want to think about what we are

[35:50] doing.

[35:51] And it's almost a self-soothing

[35:54] behavior. It offers a sense of comfort

[35:56] when we think about other countries

[35:58] doing things that

[35:59] America does all the time.

[36:01] I've seen this at least in my own

[36:03] experience because I was, of course,

[36:05] incredibly critical of Russia's invasion

[36:08] of Ukraine.

[36:09] Um and uh I have been railing against

[36:12] Vladimir Putin. He's a kleptocrat, even

[36:14] though a lot of people think that Russia

[36:15] is a communist country still. It's very

[36:17] funny, it's not. Um he's a

[36:19] uh vulgar ethno-nationalist.

[36:22] Um I oppose his worldview. I oppose his

[36:25] actions.

[36:26] And yet every time, in my experience,

[36:28] every time I uh would say, "You know,

[36:30] Russia is behaving quite a bit like

[36:32] America here."

[36:33] Americans would get mad.

[36:35] >> People would take that badly.

[36:37] >> Yeah, people people get very frustrated

[36:38] not understanding like that that is not

[36:41] a justification. I'm not actually

[36:43] offering a justification to Russian

[36:45] actions. I'm actually very critical of

[36:46] Russian actions at that moment. I'm

[36:47] saying that like this is

[36:50] irredentist behavior.

[36:52] >> By by comparing it to the US, that

[36:54] they're as bad as the US. So, some

[36:56] Americans will hear that and say you're

[36:57] you hate America.

[36:59] >> Yes, and they but I don't.

[37:01] I love America. If I didn't If I didn't

[37:03] love this country, I wouldn't be here.

[37:05] I think

[37:07] loving a country also requires uh one to

[37:11] be very sincere

[37:14] and and very direct with its criticisms.

[37:16] >> Mhm.

[37:17] >> America holds tremendous promise.

[37:21] So, I'm even more critical of America

[37:23] for that reason. The fact that we have

[37:26] so much power and we're squandering it

[37:29] or rather

[37:30] um

[37:31] using it for for

[37:35] uh the interests of a of a a tiny sliver

[37:38] of the population that has uh been able

[37:40] to develop immense power and consolidate

[37:43] tremendous amounts of wealth.

[37:45] Um I find that to be abhorrent. I want

[37:47] to I want to change that system. I want

[37:49] to help everyone.

[37:50] >> Going back to your audience, mostly men.

[37:54] A lot mostly white men, right? Um and

[37:57] men are falling behind in education,

[37:59] economic stability, mental health. They

[38:00] have higher rates of loneliness.

[38:03] Why do you think that is and and what

[38:05] happens if that continues?

[38:08] >> Um

[38:09] that's a tough one to answer. Um

[38:12] I think that

[38:14] by and large uh

[38:17] there was historically a path for young

[38:20] men, a lot of young white men as well,

[38:23] to

[38:24] to go to high school and and have an

[38:27] opportunity for upward social mobility

[38:29] by getting a regular job, maybe in in

[38:32] the trades.

[38:34] And that pathway is is closing for

[38:37] many young men in this country.

[38:40] Um

[38:41] and they find themselves rudderless and

[38:45] angry

[38:46] and disillusioned.

[38:48] And

[38:49] I think by and large we just got to get

[38:51] these guys busy. We got to get them

[38:54] motivated to to to do things. That could

[38:58] be political organizing or that could be

[39:00] a job. It's definitely a job. We need to

[39:02] get these guys good jobs and and an

[39:06] opportunity to to build a family on a

[39:09] single salary like they used to be able

[39:13] to do back in the day. I think when

[39:14] people say, "Oh, we got to make America

[39:16] great again." Like that's that's what

[39:17] they're hearkening back to. It's not I

[39:19] mean, for some it might be

[39:22] this this idea of of having segregated

[39:25] communities. There's certainly a good

[39:26] deal of that. But for many when they

[39:28] when they think about that, the promise

[39:30] of of making America great again, I

[39:32] think they're they're thinking about

[39:34] being able to work a factory job

[39:37] and and have a family and and be able to

[39:40] raise a family with a single income.

[39:44] >> What is your end goal? Do you want to be

[39:45] a kingmaker in politics?

[39:47] >> No, and I've never said I'm a kingmaker.

[39:50] The media keeps saying this over and

[39:52] over again, but I don't think

[39:54] there there can be a real kingmaker in

[39:56] in socialist politics. This is mass

[39:58] politics.

[40:00] I am simply a servant of the people and

[40:03] I am simply someone who's working in

[40:06] service of a much broader movement. I do

[40:08] not see myself as a kingmaker. I do not

[40:10] see Zoran as a kingmaker. I don't see

[40:12] AOC as a kingmaker. Um I think we are

[40:17] all trying to uplift as many people as

[40:20] we possibly can.

[40:21] >> Hassan thank you for speaking

[40:23] with me.

[40:24] >> Thank you for having me.

[40:26] >> [music]

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[40:37] Leila Fadel. Thanks for watching NPR

[40:39] Newsmakers.

[40:40] >> [music]